Official Vasto Lorde Thread

[Intense]

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-331-page-14.html That should dispute you.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-316-page-13.html


There you go, I just disproved your whole first part of your post.

Aizen only realized that was a fake Karakura after he set foot in it, he even loses his poker face for a second.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-316-page-9.html

So you didn't disprove shit, pumpkin's point still stand.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

Put it this way, if Aizen knew the real Karakura town was in SS he would've gone straight there rather than going to where Karakura town is supposed to be.

[Vizard]

Aizen only realized that was a fake Karakura after he set foot in it, he even loses his poker face for a second.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-316-page-9.html

So you didn't disprove shit, pumpkin's point still stand.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-316-page-10.html

Bottom pic, Aizen knew it was a fake. didn't look like he lost composure to me.

Why else would Aizen go there, he wants the kings key, and he needs the spiritial land, and the souls. As far as we know the Aizen, gen, and tousen may not even be them, it might be an illusion made to fool every one, while they work on getting the key in SS.

It worked once, it would work again (Aizens dead body in SS arc).

The fight with the the Espada's is to give them time. Time to locate the area where KKT is, time to get set up, time to deffeet any one that gets in their way. Time to accomplish their goal.

You should know that Aizen is too smart to go into a battle with nothing up his sleaves. those guys in the fortress of fire are probably illusions made by Aizens shikai.

[Rare]

There is another alternative. the kings has to be made on earth, in the real world. perhaps it cannot be created in SS. maybe Aizen has no choice but to fight and defeat them. in the manga we already know he sends out the appy's of the espada to take out the 4 pillars.

[Yayap]

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-197-page-16.html
The adjuchas have already been described as having high intelect, and a VL is a higher level so they would have greater intelligence.

Higher level does not mean that they are more intelligent. VLs are superior to Adjuchas in battle prowess, no doubt about that, but it doesn't necessarily follow that they are significantly smarter. Szyael Aporro (a scientist) is portrayed as fairly smart, and I don't see every VL as being smarter than him. How much smarter can one get anyway.

Szyael is book smart. I think that it's unlikely that the VL will be smarter in this way. My take on the Adjucha smarter than Gillian thing is that Gillian are mindless beings, while Adjucha are capable of reasoning/thinking for themselves.


I needed to write my thoughts on this down to help get them clear in my mind. May as well include them:
Gillians are mindless beasts. They are made up of so many (approx.) evenly matched individuals that there is no single controlling force. There are multiple conflicting forces, each trying to do their own thing, acting against each other, pulling that huge body in different directions, trying to do different things with it.

While powerful, it is slow, not agile, seems to be poorly co-ordinated, and with limited ability to usefully use its power. In short, with so many conflicting forces trying to do what they want with the whole body, it can do sweet damn all effectively.

When a dominant persona emerges to control a Gillian, as well as shrinking in size, it's also better able to control its abilities, everything from how it moves to fighting, because its thought processes are now in order. It becomes a well co-ordinated, controllable being, with just one, clear, in-command mind controlling its body.

All Adjucha (& concious Gillians) are smarter than unconcious Gillians in this way. While the Gillian are mindless, Adjuchas are smart like normal people, they are capable or reasoning. Not all, however, are intelligent like the book-smart Szyael. Yes Adjuchas are more intelligent than Gillians in general. But Yammi is hardly smart. I'd rate AA (the 9nt Espada and a Gillian) smarter than him (arrogant, careless & dead, but smarter).


P.S. Also, I haven't seen mention of this page. Ishida reports Urahara's thoughts on the VL & arrancar in general as they arrive in HM:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-242-page-9.html

[smacharia8]

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-197-page-16.html
The adjuchas have already been described as having high intelect, and a VL is a higher level so they would have greater intelligence.Higher intellect than the gillian, the foot soldiers described by Hitsugaya as being slow and having beast-like intellect. The gillian are dumb because they don't have a personality; the lucky individual whose attributes (ability+ego) are above the rest at the time of creation is the one who has the chance to keep evolving.
http://www.readbleach.com/?ch=284


http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-316-page-10.html

Bottom pic, Aizen knew it was a fake. didn't look like he lost composure to me.

Why else would Aizen go there, he wants the kings key, and he needs the spiritial land, and the souls. As far as we know the Aizen, gen, and tousen may not even be them, it might be an illusion made to fool every one, while they work on getting the key in SS.

It worked once, it would work again (Aizens dead body in SS arc).

The fight with the the Espada's is to give them time. Time to locate the area where KKT is, time to get set up, time to deffeet any one that gets in their way. Time to accomplish their goal.

You should know that Aizen is too smart to go into a battle with nothing up his sleaves. those guys in the fortress of fire are probably illusions made by Aizens shikai.Aizen was unphased because changing location doesn't bother him or hinder his objectives in any way; eliminating the Gotei and creating the key are both in his agenda. The reason the city was frozen and transferred is because the war would cause too much destruction.
http://www.readbleach.com/?ch=315

[pumpkin13]

@Vizard:
By posting this:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-331-page-14.html

I can only assume that you believed Aizen had told them this at an earlier date BEFORE they arrived in KK and entrered through the Garganta. Then it would attempt to make your argument valid.

However, Barrigan was referring to this:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-316-page-13.html

He only discovered KK was fake when he entered through the Garganta. And he doesn't lose his composure because bullshitting out confidance is smoothness is Aizen's REAL special ability.

Yama out-strategised him as far as Karakura Town is concerned. Simple as that.

I'm not however saying Aizen has nothing else up his sleeve. I AM saying he's been put onto the back foot by Yama though.

The ol' duffer was just making himself look like an incompitent fool to trick Aizen. You don't get the position of captain commander by being an incompitant and blind fool.

[Vizard]

@Vizard:
By posting this:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-331-page-14.html

I can only assume that you believed Aizen had told them this at an earlier date BEFORE they arrived in KK and entrered through the Garganta. Then it would attempt to make your argument valid.

However, Barrigan was referring to this:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-316-page-13.html

He only discovered KK was fake when he entered through the Garganta. And he doesn't lose his composure because bullshitting out confidance is smoothness is Aizen's REAL special ability.

Yama out-strategised him as far as Karakura Town is concerned. Simple as that.

I'm not however saying Aizen has nothing else up his sleeve. I AM saying he's been put onto the back foot by Yama though.

The ol' duffer was just making himself look like an incompitent fool to trick Aizen. You don't get the position of captain commander by being an incompitant and blind fool.

I think your over wemming love for yama has limited your objectivity.

We've seen time and again how Yama has been dupped. I'm not saying he can't be smart, but we all know that Aizen is much much smarter then Yama.

Frankly I think Yama is over estameted, and over hyped.

WE know that everyone there in KKT has been effected by Aizen's Zan.

So it's very easy to beleive that Aizen is using a double like he did back in TBTP arc when he was roaming around, which set up every one to beleive he was in the seirette.

So if the trio that we see in KKT (behind the flame) are only some kind of double, then its easy to assume that they wouldn't know about Yama being there, or about the transfer of KKT to SS.

[pumpkin13]

Time and time again he's been duped? Well, if you count Aizen's insurrection as lots and lots of little times then yeah sure... other than that it's ONCE.

"Well we all know that Aizen is much smarter than Yama." - first of all this is a vast generalisation. Secondly, he appears to be smarter. Oh and what's that? He's incredibly adept at decieving people? So... you don't think that he could be decieving us all? Who exactly do you think would be willing to to walk into KKT to face the direct onslaught of G13 posed as Aizen, Gin and Tousen, whilst Aizen's off somewhere else.

Plus Aizen didn't KNOW it was a fake KK town so he wouldnt have had time to arrange a body double or three to stand in. If he had known then he would have included all this in his announcement of the plan before he opened the garganta. There's also isn't really a plausible break for him to talk to those trapped in LN then transfer over to the body double and send him into KKT.

On top of that the interaction between Gin and Aizen with reference to Momo's arrival further suggests that the three inside the fire prison are in fact the actual three traitor captains.

It's entirely possible that Yama knew of Aizen's movements, but he cannot overrule C46, plus having Urahara get out of the way would mean he would take the hougoukyu with him, thus keeping it out of Aizen's reach, and any sort of interjection on Yama's behalf would make Aizen aware that Yama knew of his movements, thus much better to pretend you don't know about it letting Aizen move as if he thought no one else knew about it so you can basically keep an eye on him, although the killing of C46 would have been beyond Yama's knowledge... but then again... maybe he had an ulterior motive? Aizen getting rid of the C46 essentially hands full command capability over to Yama, he can do what he wants now and doesn't have to follow their politically complex and intrigued orders, he can do what he see best.

Now that last bit probably IS pushing the boat out too far, but the rest of it I think is perfectly logical and reasonable to assume. My objectivity is within reason. I'm just naturally suspicious of Aizen's powers, what with his prime areas of skill being deception and illusion, so i'm much less willing to jump on the bandwagon than the rest of you.

It's like, you KNOW this guys a liar, but you're going to trust every word that comes out of his mouth? And even physical visual feats cannot be taken at face value with his ability to create illusions.

[TokyoRacer]

Again, if Aizen was completely caught off guard, and even remotely suspected a chance that his plans could fail, then I suspect he would be acting a hell of a lot differently.

The fact he, Gin and Tousen remained trapped in the fire fortress not worried about anything signifies to me that Aizen was well aware of this possible outcome, and in fact planned ahead for it. The fact that Aizen isn't worried about anything signifies to me he has a plan in stored for everything.

I mean, it appears that he is in dire straights, but the fact that he remains calm is an idication to me that he has something really big planned.

[pumpkin13]

The fact that he hasn't broken a sweat indicates (firstly a massive physical impossibility... i mean he's surrounded by a freaking wall of fire, ANYBODY would be sweating) that he's damn good at maintaining his composure and lying through his teeth. Again, skills of a quality manipulator/ deciever.

I don't doubt that he doesn't still have something up his sleeve. I believe he still has another 4-7 VL arrancars hiding somewhere preparing to attack Soul Society. But he HAS been put on the back foot. His plans included erradicating the G13 and SS, but not having to get rid fo the G13 at this injuncture.

He DOES lose his pokerface, I personally believe trying to argue that he WASNT taken aback by Yama and co's appearence in (fake)KKT is nothing short of stubborn.

Yeah he's still got a plan, he likely has at least two backup plans. But this wasn't how things were meant to go...

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/313/19/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/314/02-03/
If they KNOW its the fake town then why are they still going there to destroy something which doesnt aid their goal and create the Ouken which they'd KNOW they cant do because there are no souls there. If they DID know KKT was a fake, it just wouldnt make any sense.

Many of you (by no means all) have just been thinking of him as an all powerful god for too long and as such don't like seeing that he's really not as uber as you make him out to be, because you've been eating his palm fed lies for so long.

[TokyoRacer]

Yes, because Aizen defeating Hitsugaya and Komamura with ease means nothing...right?

[king Outlaw]

Maybe aizen knows its better to get rid of the soul society in fake karakura town then to face the Vizards, isshin, urahara, ishidas dad and gotei all at once. Aizen actually is better of eliminating the gotei captains now.

[Vizard]

Many of you (by no means all) have just been thinking of him as an all powerful god for too long and as such don't like seeing that he's really not as uber as you make him out to be, because you've been eating his palm fed lies for so long.

Just like how you think of Yama as a god.

Actually I don't think of Aizen as a god at all, I preceive him more as a great tactiction, or even a master of it.

With him being a former captain he's surely more then aware of how SS will react, and what they'd do. With centural 46 books he's been able to refine how SS would act to sisuations, and deal with it accordingly.

The only real problem would be to know who should fight who, incase he has no idea what any ones bankai could do. In fact I wouldn't be too surprised if he didn't sit in on every promotion when he was named a captain. Just so he'd know what to expect from the other captains.

When you serve say as a general in the pentagon in DC, you'd be pervy to knowlege that sets you apart from others. With that info you would know how someone would react to a sisuation.

Thats what Aizen is, hes the dicert opersistion to SS, cause he knows exactally what SS would do.

[pumpkin13]

Yes, because Aizen defeating Hitsugaya and Komamura with ease means nothing...right?

Defeating Hitsuguya is hardly impressive no. Defeating Koma? Well, Zaraki can withstand Koma's shikai apparently, so his feat of stopping Koma's shikai with his hand just puts him on a par with zaraki, nothing special, and his kidou took koma out becuase koma let his guard down being distracted by Aizen's kyouka suigetsu. Plus he was up and about in no time after Aizen had disappeared refusing aid from 4th division healers.

Maybe aizen knows its better to get rid of the soul society in fake karakura town then to face the Vizards, isshin, urahara, ishidas dad and gotei all at once. Aizen actually is better of eliminating the gotei captains now.

Aizen doesn't appear to know of the Vaizard, other wise Ulquiorra would almost certainly have made a comment on Shinji when he came to pick up GJ. Plus when they first arrived they said there were only 3 big reiatsu... he knows of Urahara and Yoruichi... the third could have been Tessai whom he knows of personally, or it could have been Ichigo.... but that still leaves seven high level reiatsu's out there that he didn't include in telling Ulquiorra and as such is likely unaware of. (six vaizard plus Isshin, of course there's also Ryuuken as well...)

Just like how you think of Yama as a god.

Actually I don't think of Aizen as a god at all, I preceive him more as a great tactiction, or even a master of it.

With him being a former captain he's surely more then aware of how SS will react, and what they'd do. With centural 46 books he's been able to refine how SS would act to sisuations, and deal with it accordingly.

The only real problem would be to know who should fight who, incase he has no idea what any ones bankai could do. In fact I wouldn't be too surprised if he didn't sit in on every promotion when he was named a captain. Just so he'd know what to expect from the other captains.

When you serve say as a general in the pentagon in DC, you'd be pervy to knowlege that sets you apart from others. With that info you would know how someone would react to a sisuation.

Thats what Aizen is, hes the dicert opersistion to SS, cause he knows exactally what SS would do.

Actually I don't think of Yama as a god, at least not in an over-arching umbrella term sense. I think he's pretty much a god in terms of reiatsu, if anyone can take him on and tank him head to head on their own i will genuinely be impressed, currently the only person I see being even remotely capable of this is Stark in Res and even that's at a push.

I am quite aware and do not deny that when Yama dies, as he most certainly will, it will be buy Aizen's hand, and the use of his hax shikai/bankai.

[smacharia8]

Defeating Hitsuguya is hardly impressive no. Defeating Koma? Well, Zaraki can withstand Koma's shikai apparently, so his feat of stopping Koma's shikai with his hand just puts him on a par with zaraki, nothing special, and his kidou took koma out becuase koma let his guard down being distracted by Aizen's kyouka suigetsu. Plus he was up and about in no time after Aizen had disappeared refusing aid from 4th division healers.Aizen tanked the attack and stopped THE SWORD with his hand as well. The only blade Zaraki's ever handled in that fashion is Ichigo's when his resolve was low. And Koma's a tank so injuries will amount to a little more than they would on Zaraki, yet he was down for the count for more than a couple minutes.



Actually I don't think of Yama as a god, at least not in an over-arching umbrella term sense. I think he's pretty much a god in terms of reiatsu, if anyone can take him on and tank him head to head on their own i will genuinely be impressed, currently the only person I see being even remotely capable of this is Stark in Res and even that's at a push.

I am quite aware and do not deny that when Yama dies, as he most certainly will, it will be buy Aizen's hand, and the use of his hax shikai/bankai.No good guy dies in Bleach! >_>*

[pumpkin13]

Yet... fingers crossed
DIE SOIFON DIE SOIFON DIE SOIFON DIE SOIFON DIE SOIFON DIE SOIFON DIE SOIFONDIE SOIFONDIE SOIFONDIE SOIFONDIE SOIFONDIE SOIFONDIE SOIFONDIE SOIFONDIE SOIFONDIE SOIFONDIE SOIFONDIE SOIFONDIE SOIFONDIE SOIFONDIE SOIFONDIE SOIFONDIE SOIFON

[mvlbrotherg]

Okay I don't know if this has crossed peoples minds but there seems to be a Aizen VS Yamamoto thing going on here.People are debating as to whose the strongest in stratagem or power. So lets speculate everyone opinions with a vote.
In Strategy who do you think will triumph Aizen or Yamamoto?
In Power who do you think will triumph Aizen or Yamamoto?

[ms07gtr]

@ Pumpkin: We can only hope.



In Strategy who do you think will triumph Aizen or Yamamoto?
In Power who do you think will triumph Aizen or Yamamoto?


In Strategy Aizen has already proven himself to be a master of deception. Yamamoto is no slouch, but his strict adherance to the rules are a weakness that can be exploited. This current battle is not proof (yet)of one over the other. On that only time will tell. We already know Aizen has higher plans so this may only be a diversion.

Power is all speculation. Aizen has yet to reveal what he has done behind the scenes both to himself and others. We have yet to see Yamamotos true fighting prowess.

I would like to think Yamamoto is more powerful and Aizen is more tactical.

[pumpkin13]

This is the VL thread so it isn't really the place for that.

Strategy: Likely Aizen, although as i've been stating recently, Yama outsmarted him with Karakura Town. And it's possible although pushing it that he had been letting Aizen run what he thought was his own show. Killing C46 works for Yama in that it hands the reigns of soul society over to him solely. Plus he has at least 2000 years of dealing with possible various insurrections before, i can just see him squaring off with Aizen; "Impudent Scamp! Do you truly believe you're the first to try and take power from Sereitei? Do you really think that there haven't been tens of individuals before you who have all thought the same thing? I have seen them all rise and fall, and fall they inevitably do."

Power: Yama easily. If Aizen masters his "supposed" theoretical vaizard mask then he'll just tip the edge, but unlikely IMO.

IM NOT BIASED! lol

[Keiretsu]

I find both Yama and Aizen great characters, kinda like opposing powers.

That said, you can't say that Aizen suppressing his power for hundreds of years and making a fool out of the whole SS wasn't a good play. It was certainly better than the switch of KK. We have seen a couple of strategic moves from Yama, and a metric ton of them from Aizen. I'm not saying Yama is a moron, but the KK switch was a good move. However, what Aizen orchestrated was simply masterful and took a whole hell of a lot longer to pull off correctly.

Isn't this thread supposed to be about VL's though? I think it is...

On that note, I think these upcoming fights with Stark and co' will show whether or not there are any VL's in the top espada. The first hint will probably be a dead captain. (Irony would have Hits die for his comment earlier about how strong they were. But I have admitted a number of times that I don't like him much.) I think Lrnd said in another thread that if none of them are VL's and Aizen has raised another 10 Espada from VL's that the past year or so will feel wasted. I don't think KT is that stupid, at the very least I think Stark is one. But as for the other three? I guess we will have to wait and see.

[ms07gtr]

I think the current espada are the diversion, all the while the VL Aizen has found are being perfected. It may be a waste of manga in the short run, but that just means the story line is farther reaching than most assume. He may already be thinking 100s of chapters ahead. (now think of all the crappy fillers that will create):sick:

If Hitsi dies all the fanboys/girls will have a fit, so it would be prudent to have the current espada not be VL. I don't think he would go through the trouble of setting up the Vizards to have them sit on the sidelines. You also have to consider that Ichigo is the primary protaganist of the story line. He needs some serious power advancement to take on any of the higher ranked people. Though he seems to do that in massive leaps...

[Keiretsu]

Hits should die. If for any reason to prove that KT has a spine.

[pumpkin13]

Soifon dying would be enough for me. Koma maybe against Tousen... who in return gets pwnzrd by Kensei as revenge and avenging in doing so.

Ukitake and Shunsui I would rather not die, but if it means the other one doing a Goku and Krillen and going apeshit and raping somebody otherwise unrapable then i wouldnt mind.

Yama will almost certainly die but i hope not for a long time.

Unohana needs to live cus she's the new captain commander.

Iba needs his moment of glory then he can die.

Ikakku i can see regaining his honour in a moment of glory.

Soifon can die just for being so damn stuck up her own ass. And cowardly. Did I mention I hate her btw?

Omaeda can die, although i don't think he will.

Hisagi's gonna be new 9th division captain so he batter damned not die.

Kira likely same for 3rd.

Matsumoto can die and as well on her way already.

Momo serves no real purpose unless KT pulls an uber plot twist out of his ass.

Choujiro can die... don't really know what purpose he serves.

Byakuya won't die until Rukia's a decent rank, like a VC or something. How ghey would it be if Byakuya died and she got promoted straight to 6th division captain.

Anyway, yeah alot of the above are poeple i can see being dead by the time the series finishes. Plenty of scope there for KT.

[ms07gtr]

What would be funny to me is if Hits died and Matsumoto survived the shark bite sized hole in her side.

[kwabou]

So, back to the thread topic... I've been wondering about Vasto Lorde resureccion. I realize that no evidence exists in the manga as to who is a VL or what their release is like, but here's my theory (Feel free to discredit it, neg rep me, or delete this post. I don't really give a shit):

Becoming an Arrancar allows a hollow to not only tap into the power of a Shinigami, but also to become more humanoid. So far, the general consensus is that VL's are already humanoid, and possess great power. If this is the case, when Arrancarized, a VL should only gain power (A Zanpakutou), making Resureccion, which, for all intents and purposes returns an arrancar back to their previous state, with perhaps a slight boost in power and a piece of their mask missing so we can see their pretty human face, completely useless. This leads me to believe that no arrancarized VL would release, if they could, due to that fact that when in resureccion, their sword goes away, which I would think is a disadvantage... Especially since arrancarization should not change much of their original state at all...

Just my thoughts...

[ms07gtr]

You forget that when Noritora released his sword it was replaced with six new ones.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

So, back to the thread topic... I've been wondering about Vasto Lorde resureccion. I realize that no evidence exists in the manga as to who is a VL or what their release is like, but here's my theory (Feel free to discredit it, neg rep me, or delete this post. I don't really give a shit):

Becoming an Arrancar allows a hollow to not only tap into the power of a Shinigami, but also to become more humanoid. So far, the general consensus is that VL's are already humanoid, and possess great power. If this is the case, when Arrancarized, a VL should only gain power (A Zanpakutou), making Resureccion, which, for all intents and purposes returns an arrancar back to their previous state, with perhaps a slight boost in power and a piece of their mask missing so we can see their pretty human face, completely useless. This leads me to believe that no arrancarized VL would release, if they could, due to that fact that when in resureccion, their sword goes away, which I would think is a disadvantage... Especially since arrancarization should not change much of their original state at all...

Just my thoughts...

The arrancarisation transformation would quite easily double the power of the original hollow. There is no way a VL would gain any less of an increase than any other level of hollow. The difference between un-released and released form can be compared to the same difference between a sealed zanpakuto and bankai. Yes hollow beomce more humanoid after arrancarisation, but one they release they go back to a very similar shape and size to what they originally were. VL on the other hand, would revert back to their original form, but it would be much more humanoid than the lower levels of hollow.

[pumpkin13]

mmmm Noitra was an interesting departure from that general line of thinking... I believe one of the things that will set VLs apart from adjucha is that they will DEFINATELY retain some sort of hand held seperate weapon. Then again, maybe not.

@ UK, i don't really see what you're trying to prove?

[justin43]

mmmm Noitra was an interesting departure from that general line of thinking... I believe one of the things that will set VLs apart from adjucha is that they will DEFINATELY retain some sort of hand held seperate weapon. Then again, maybe not.

@ UK, i don't really see what you're trying to prove?

I agree. I have the same feeling that VLs will keep a sword in some form or another. Lets see how Kubo will handle Ulquiorra's release. As the espada ranks went up, we saw more humanoid like releases. The 9th espada was totally non-humanoid. The 8th and 7th were more humanoid than the gillian espada, but were still more like monsters. Grimmjow's release was much more humanoid, but he didn't carry a weapon. Noitora had a humanoid form and carry weapons on his release, but he was based off of an animal like other adunchas. Nel is also based off an animal with a slight humanoid form based from greek myth with humans with horse bottoms. If Ulquiorra is a VL, he should have a release that is humanoid, but not necessary based on an animal, and maintain a weapon.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

I still believe that Ulquiorra release will look somewhat like a samurai. That helmet to me looks very much like a samurai helmet, and also the word samurai means "to serve" which is exactly what Ulquiorra does. This would help in fitting a humanoid form, as samurai of course are human.

[divine saint of aries]

Who came up with the theory that Vasto Lordes will keep a weapon after there Resurrection forms?

[pumpkin13]

I suggested it as a potential plausible theory.

[Goroth]

Ulquiorra first being a Vasto Lord, IDK. Personally i think there will be only one or two of them, the series has to continue on them and top 2 or top 3 have the potential to be revealed as VL. As for the samurai outfit and all, i also don't think it's suiting for Ulq. I think IF HE IS a VL, i think he'd look more like an assassin.

[king Outlaw]

Ulquiorra first being a Vasto Lord, IDK. Personally i think there will be only one or two of them, the series has to continue on them and top 2 or top 3 have the potential to be revealed as VL. As for the samurai outfit and all, i also don't think it's suiting for Ulq. I think IF HE IS a VL, i think he'd look more like an assassin.

Wonderwice and ulquiorra can't be the only vastos, so there has to be at least 11/

[divine saint of aries]

I suggested it as a potential plausible theory.

I see now.

[pumpkin13]

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/229/15/

from this it is evident that Aizen fused with the Hougoukyu (however that happens) to use its fully awakened (albeit simulated awakened) power to make Wonderwice, so I think he likely IS a VL, plus yeah in the bandaged state previously he's totally humanoid and very small, although he still has two spines protruding from his back.
(http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/229/12-13/)

I think, the more recent chapters, ie. Ulquiorra completely outclassing Ichigo without even trying (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/342/17/ look at him, his stance in normal people would indicate weakness, his joints are all bent and unlocked compared to ichigo's who are locked and he has the power of rage and anger as well as momentum and gravity behind him, and Ulquiorra's using one hand and not even paying attention to him) is basically Kubo saying "hey kids, this is the beginning of what a VL can do".

So I think 4 and upwards are VLs plus Wonderwice.

[Vizard]

229, page 13 is direct evidence that Aizen doesn't know about the Vizards.

He wouldn't of made the comments about the Hougyoku like that if he knew that the Vizards exisited, made by the use of the Hougyoku on the former captains and VC's.

But giving the fact he knows about Ichigo's mask, its likely he might assume someone knows something about Shinigami with a hollow, even the other Espada's reconize that Ichigo's reiatsu is similar to their own when his mask is on (halibel has commented on it, so has Ulq and grimm).

[divine saint of aries]

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/229/15/

from this it is evident that Aizen fused with the Hougoukyu (however that happens) to use its fully awakened (albeit simulated awakened) power to make Wonderwice, so I think he likely IS a VL, plus yeah in the bandaged state previously he's totally humanoid and very small, although he still has two spines protruding from his back.
(http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/229/12-13/)

I think, the more recent chapters, ie. Ulquiorra completely outclassing Ichigo without even trying (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/342/17/ look at him, his stance in normal people would indicate weakness, his joints are all bent and unlocked compared to ichigo's who are locked and he has the power of rage and anger as well as momentum and gravity behind him, and Ulquiorra's using one hand and not even paying attention to him) is basically Kubo saying "hey kids, this is the beginning of what a VL can do".

So I think 4 and upwards are VLs plus Wonderwice.

I still don't believe Espada 4-1 are Vasto Lordes but i still think Wonderwice is a Vasto Lorde and that would be cool if he was the strongest Vasto Lorde in all of Hueco Mundo but then again it would be cool to have a new super powerful character to be the strongest Vasto Lorde in Hueco Mundo.

[UnadvisedGoose]

229, page 13 is direct evidence that Aizen doesn't know about the Vizards.

He wouldn't of made the comments about the Hougyoku like that if he knew that the Vizards exisited, made by the use of the Hougyoku on the former captains and VC's.

But giving the fact he knows about Ichigo's mask, its likely he might assume someone knows something about Shinigami with a hollow, even the other Espada's reconize that Ichigo's reiatsu is similar to their own when his mask is on (halibel has commented on it, so has Ulq and grimm).

I noticed that too, when I looked at the linked page.

It made me wonder the same things. Also, I wonder if the Hogyoku was sealed or not when Urahara used it on the Vizards. If so, I would assume he had to have "higher than a captains reiatsu" to use it. Which would confirm some of the uberness most believe Urahara has.

[pumpkin13]

Yeah, the bottom left frame of http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/229/14/ fairly conclusively suggests that Aizen doesn't know Kisuke used it to save the holliwfied captains and VCs.

[mvlbrotherg]

That's all still speculation though. I just don't see Aizen making such a stupid assumption that the Vizards were not saved. He was there when Central 46 condemed the hollowfied Captains and VC to death and was in Seretie when Yoruichi saved Urahara and the rest of the Vizards. It would'nt make sense if he just assumes they all died if you think about it.

[king Outlaw]

That's all still speculation though. I just don't see Aizen making such a stupid assumption that the Vizards were not saved. He was there when Central 46 condemed the hollowfied Captains and VC to death and was in Seretie when Yoruichi saved Urahara and the rest of the Vizards. It would'nt make sense if he just assumes they all died if you think about it.

And the fact you can't take 8 bodies from the soul society without anyone noticing and documenting it.

[pumpkin13]

Soifon was the closest person aside of Urahara to Yoruichi, and she didn't know WTF had happened, Yoruichi just disappeared. And Yoruichi hasn't been banished in absentium, cus she can still return to SS whereas Urahara physically cannot.

It would be purely speculation if there wasn't any evidence in the manga to suggest it. BUT THERE IS. And i just posted it.

[king Outlaw]

Soifon was the closest person aside of Urahara to Yoruichi, and she didn't know WTF had happened, Yoruichi just disappeared. And Yoruichi hasn't been banished in absentium, cus she can still return to SS whereas Urahara physically cannot.

It would be purely speculation if there wasn't any evidence in the manga to suggest it. BUT THERE IS. And i just posted it.

urahara can't physically return to the society? He is in there now because karakura town is in the seretei.

Soifon is not that smart or the stealth force hid the truth in order to protect her.

You can't just lose 6 of your captains without giving a explanation.

[pumpkin13]

I wouldn't (have) put anything past C46, they're politicians, they could spin doctor your granny's death into an attempted assassination plot on the king.

I don't buy the Soifon point. Not one bit. Plus in being Yoruichi's personal bodyguard, and Yoruichi being head of special ops... that 9at least to me) makes Soifon a part of the stealth force.

Urahara tried putting his hand through the barrier he set up when Ichi and co first went to Sereitei, and it physically rejected him. Perhaps since the removal of C46 this limitation has been removed, or with the special circumstances of Karakura town being moved to a mould, he's still safe within the confines of karakura town.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

I think the debate on the top 4's VL credibility is just about over. The last two pages of chapter 344 have pretty much sealed it:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-357-page-17.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-357-page-18.html

[Yayap]

Yeah, pretty much every shred of doubt is gone now. Even if you just look as just not being able to use Gran Rey Cero inside the dome, it still points heavily to them being VL.

[Szarlej]

The latest chapter makes for me clear that Top 4 is VL. Ichigo is going to have hard time.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

The main evidence for me is the fact that he specifically mentioned that "Espadas above Cuatro(4) are forbidden to unleash their power within the dome". This means that there has been a restriction imposed by Aizen upon those select 4 espada, but why them and no other? The answer is plain and simple: they are Vasto Lorde.

[pumpkin13]

well yes its highly suggestive isn't it, although its not as yet explicitly been stated. Its possibly that they are all merely higher tier Adjuchas, perhaps only JUST sub par to vasto lorde levels. After all it has become evident that there are different tiers of power withint the term "Captain level" so why not "Adjucha level"? Szayal and Zommari would be on a lower tier and Grimmjow and Noitra would be mid tier then Ulqui, Halibel Barrigan and Stark would be on a higher tier. Just a possibility, not one that im arguing as being correct.

[fakeobsession]

After reading the last episode it is clear to me that they are Vasto Lorde...
I'll agree with what UlquiorraKuchiki said & i'll say that there can't be any other stronger creature...
We would its existence for sure cause Aizen would probably want to know more about it

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

well yes its highly suggestive isn't it, although its not as yet explicitly been stated. Its possibly that they are all merely higher tier Adjuchas, perhaps only JUST sub par to vasto lorde levels. After all it has become evident that there are different tiers of power withint the term "Captain level" so why not "Adjucha level"? Szayal and Zommari would be on a lower tier and Grimmjow and Noitra would be mid tier then Ulqui, Halibel Barrigan and Stark would be on a higher tier. Just a possibility, not one that im arguing as being correct.

Which is why we have to wait untill Ulquiorra states it before we can call it 100% positive that they are VL, no matter how suggestive the latest chapter has been. Not that this has altered my opinion since VL were first mentioned that they are lol

[dynamo]

In my opinion, Espada 1-4 having to release outside the dome of Las Noches is pretty much screaming out their VL status at us...

Yes, people are correct in saying that it still has not been set in stone as it could boil down to the top 4 Espada simply being too powerful, regardless of being VLs or not, but remember this is manga, and thus it is likely that 1-4 ARE VLs.

[(SIC)NESS]

it is quite possible they are VL's cuz they are not allowed to release within las noches but why would aizen still want VL's (he wants to become invincible -.-') but if the top 4 are VL's that means he can already win 10 vasto's are stronger then the 13 captains
3 are gone so 10 captains vs 4 VL's and 3 captains aizen would win this way.

i think the reason why aizen still searches for VL's is he only has 2 or maybe 3 ulquiorra is just a very very strong adjuchas i think and stark is the only perfect VL

[hcaelb]

I think the top 4 espada are VLs. KT has a way of giving subtle hints about things to come. Just like before we found out who was Espada 1, 2, and 3.

When Aizen was locked in Yama's prison fire. Barragan took control and wanted to give orders, but looked Stark's way first, to get a sense of approval or to make sure there is no disagreement with Barragan's actions.

But like some have mentioned above, nothing's 100% until it's shown in the manga.

[Rufix]

it is quite possible they are VL's cuz they are not allowed to release within las noches but why would aizen still want VL's (he wants to become invincible -.-') but if the top 4 are VL's that means he can already win 10 vasto's are stronger then the 13 captains
3 are gone so 10 captains vs 4 VL's and 3 captains aizen would win this way.

i think the reason why aizen still searches for VL's is he only has 2 or maybe 3 ulquiorra is just a very very strong adjuchas i think and stark is the only perfect VL

You take it too literally. 10 vastos are supposed to be stronger than 13 captain level shinigami, but what do we understand by captain level? Freshly baked Bankai user? Avarage captain like Mayuri? Or high-tier captain like Shunsui? It's too wide to compare it THAT way.

Please don't say any of top 4 Espada is 'very very strong adjuchas' it makes no sense. I just can't see THAT kind of power gap between very very strong (and why isn't he VL then, like he ate one hollow too little on purpose?) and strong/avarage. Cus it's more than 1000 years of pain, heaven and earth, hundreds years of training. Just don't see it, and 'very very strong' words don't get to my mind.

[kochito22]

didn't hitsugaya say that 10 vasto would be the end of SS? that doesn't = 13 captains. that means everyone, including yamamoto

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

didn't hitsugaya say that 10 vasto would be the end of SS? that doesn't = 13 captains. that means everyone, including yamamoto

I have a feeling he meant SS in it's current state, which includes the 9 captains still there AND all the other shinigami in the gotei.

[Xova]

didn't hitsugaya say that 10 vasto would be the end of SS? that doesn't = 13 captains. that means everyone, including yamamoto

I doubt that kid's even old enough to have seen Yamamoto's shikai, so how he came to the conclusion is beyond me. Remember this is also the same guy who thought he could kill Aizen.

[UnadvisedGoose]

^I'm glad I'm not the only one who doubts the punk's words. Seriously, what does he know?

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

I doubt that kid's even old enough to have seen Yamamoto's shikai, so how he came to the conclusion is beyond me. Remember this is also the same guy who thought he could kill Aizen.

Remember, no one knew at that time how powerful Aizen really was.

[pumpkin13]

far more likely he was using himself as an average estimation of a captain, and SS as it stood at that point in time, ie. three captains down.

[TokyoRacer]

As I've already said...the top 3 or 4 espada being VL's would completely crap on the whole notion of what a VL has been built up to be. I'd much rather see a small group of new enemies (VL's) make their appearance known. It would make Bleach more interesting.

[smacharia8]

^ 10 VLs vs 3-4 high-tiers accompanied by 5 mids. Just because SS has a better standing against four alone doesn't mean VLs are looking weak.

[Lnrd]

For some reason I still don't believe Espada 1-4 are VLs. My thoughts are completely based off why Aizen didn't put Wonderwice into the espada ranks already? Because he is a 99% lock for being a VL.

He was quick to throw Luppi in for Grimmjow when we know Wonderwice is more than likely alot stronger than him.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

As I've already said...the top 3 or 4 espada being VL's would completely crap on the whole notion of what a VL has been built up to be. I'd much rather see a small group of new enemies (VL's) make their appearance known. It would make Bleach more interesting.

The only thing I have against this scenario is that it would make it seem like KT is just pulling enemies out of his ass. The espada were supposed to be the strongest of the strongest in terms of the arrancar to begin with, so I see no problem with the top 4 being VL. I mean it would seem stupid for all of the espada to finally be defeated and then Aizen be like "But wait, now you have to fight against my other espada/arrancar who are all VL". It would lack depth and be the easy way of creating new enemies. We still know very little about the top 3 and even Ulquiorra for that matter, so there is still a fair bit of character development to be utilised here. Besides, even if the top 4 are VL that still leaves another possible 6 VL (if there is roughly 10 in Hueco Mundo according to Hitsugaya) that could be brought into the story later on. The top 4 being VL would by no means crap on the notion of a VL's strength.

[kochito22]

hitsugaya didn't say that there are only 10 vasto in existence, just that they are very rare. he said if 10 mobilized, it'd mean the end of soul society.

[TokyoRacer]

Okay, but once the top three espada are defeated...what's next? That leaves Aizen, Gin and Tousen to fight all of SS and perhaps even the Vizard's.

[pumpkin13]

Because he hasn't matured yet?/ Is a duff one as far as intelligence/attention span goes?

I personally completely agree with TR, I want to see a new bunch of enemies. but so far the manga is highly suggesting that 1-4 are VLs. Alternatively, they could all be reject low class VLs/ Noobs, and we're still to see the 1337 VLs.

[kochito22]

but so far the manga is highly suggesting that 1-4 are VLs. Alternatively, they could all be reject low class VLs/ Noobs, and we're still to see the 1337 VLs.

I'm confused. I could see the top 3 being Vasto but why Ulq?

http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000138982/18.jpg

The espada above cuarto must leave the dome before releasing. Ulq isn't above cuarto.

[TokyoRacer]

You have to really think about this logically for a second. A group of VL's appearing makes perfect sense. What's left after the current top 3 espada are defeated? Aizen, Gin and Tousen. That's it.

You're telling me those three are going to somehow magically be able to defeat Soul Society, the Vizard's (if they do indeed fight with Soul Society), the Shinigami/others in Kurakara town (Yoruichi, Isshin, Ryukin, Urahara), as well as the Royal Guard?

Vasto Lorde's should be a lot stronger then their current top esapda. It makes sense to have stronger enemies appear.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

He said there are very few, but the fact he said if 10 were mobilised suggests you could estimate the number of VL in Hueco Mundo as a figure somewhere around 10.

@TokyoRacer: as I already said, even if the top 4 turned out to be VL and were defeated there is still the possibility of another 6 (roughly) that could be recruited, which I would imagine would be stronger than any of the remaining espada.

[kochito22]

He said there are very few, but the fact he said if 10 were mobilised suggests you could estimate the number of VL in Hueco Mundo as a figure somewhere around 10.

No, not really. It just means that if 10 got together and said "Ayo let's go fuck up SS," they could do it.

[TokyoRacer]

I'm still hoping for the Vizard's to betray Soul Society. That would be interesting.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

No, not really. It just means that if 10 got together and said "Ayo let's go fuck up SS," they could do it.

He wouldn't have said it unless it was a possibility. Besides, do you really think there would only be 4 VL in the whole of Hueco Mundo? And I said a number AROUND 10, which seems like a fair enough assumption.

[kochito22]

No, I don't think that there are only 4 VL in all of Hueco Mundo. Why would you think that?

[pumpkin13]

I'm confused. I could see the top 3 being Vasto but why Ulq?

http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000138982/18.jpg

The espada <i>above</i> cuarto must leave the dome before releasing. Ulq isn't above cuarto.

Dunno where you got that translation from but the one I read said "Espada's Cuatro and above..." Plus if only espadas above cuatro had to release above the dome why the hell would Ulquiorra be leaving the dome?

[kochito22]

I got it from onemanga.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/344/18/

[pumpkin13]

mmmm interesting... that's where I read it. It would seem that this time the longer translators and nromally more thorough ones got it wrong. Cmon, you can't deny that it makes more sense. Ulquiorra goes above the dome of las noches, then says 4 and above aren't allowed to release within the dome. then releases.

Otherwise why didn't he just release in the dome?

[kochito22]

Maybe he wants to be like the big kids. I dunno.

[pumpkin13]

nah im pretty sure its for a reason and i'm fairly certain that is it. anybody else any thoughts on this?

[TokyoRacer]

Sleepyfans suck at translating?

[pumpkin13]

I'm not saying they suck, generally they're pretty reliable, but no-ones perfect, I think they just got this one wrong. I do ancient Greek at uni, so I know how difficult it can be getting the nuances of certain translations right, but when there's logical visual evidence supporting it... sigh, i dunno.

[smacharia8]

^It's one of those errors you kinda fly by w/o even noticing. We all know what Ulquiorra said and reading through a speedy trans, we already know what was meant. Also Ulquiorra's release word is better translated as enchain...I mentioned it in the 344 discussion thread.
http://forums.bleachexile.com/showthread.php?p=1600041#post1600041



For some reason I still don't believe Espada 1-4 are VLs. My thoughts are completely based off why Aizen didn't put Wonderwice into the espada ranks already? Because he is a 99% lock for being a VL.

He was quick to throw Luppi in for Grimmjow when we know Wonderwice is more than likely alot stronger than him.By the same token, you wouldn't put Kenpachi on the captain ranks if his speech was nowhere near coherent, right?



Okay, but once the top three espada are defeated...what's next? That leaves Aizen, Gin and Tousen to fight all of SS and perhaps even the Vizard's.Well it's rather obvious there'll be a 2nd wave in store for SS and more than likely the Royal Guard as well.



I'm confused. I could see the top 3 being Vasto but why Ulq?

http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000138982/18.jpg

The espada above cuarto must leave the dome before releasing. Ulq isn't above cuarto.That's why speedy releases aren't always the best reference.
http://forums.bleachexile.com/showthread.php?p=1600041#post1600041

Ulquiorra's words are also more along the lines of "espadas cuatro and above" but all you need to do is compare Sleepyfan's translation to Ulquiorra's character to know that something was amiss in their trans.



You have to really think about this logically for a second. A group of VL's appearing makes perfect sense. What's left after the current top 3 espada are defeated? Aizen, Gin and Tousen. That's it.

You're telling me those three are going to somehow magically be able to defeat Soul Society, the Vizard's (if they do indeed fight with Soul Society), the Shinigami/others in Kurakara town (Yoruichi, Isshin, Ryukin, Urahara), as well as the Royal Guard?

Vasto Lorde's should be a lot stronger then their current top esapda. It makes sense to have stronger enemies appear.What's gonna be left of SS after the top 3 are gone? A bunch of exhausted high tiers who just fought their equals. So who's gonna handle the second infantry, let alone Aizen's trio? Koma and Soifon? I don't think so.



No, not really. It just means that if 10 got together and said "Ayo let's go fuck up SS," they could do it.Now give them an arancarization boost and we'll see how far SS will get.

Basically adjucha are between VC and avg captain level whereas VL are toe-to-toe with avg captains, while the high-tiers are toe-to-toe with arancarized VL. That's how I view it.

[TokyoRacer]

The Vizard's will handle the second wave...? Maybe?

[Intense]

Sleepyfans suck at translating?

Big time. Their english is laughable

[Bleachjunkie]

mmmm interesting... that's where I read it. It would seem that this time the longer translators and nromally more thorough ones got it wrong. Cmon, you can't deny that it makes more sense. Ulquiorra goes above the dome of las noches, then says 4 and above aren't allowed to release within the dome. then releases.

Otherwise why didn't he just release in the dome?


I have to agree with Pumpkin here. I read this over the weekend and it was different.

[kochito22]

Basically adjucha are between VC and avg captain level whereas VL are toe-to-toe with avg captains, while the high-tiers are toe-to-toe with arancarized VL. That's how I view it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvPQ8e_NUso&feature=related

At 0:26, it's said that "a Vasto Lorde's battle abilities are even greater than a captain's."

Wouldn't that mean that Vasto Lorde > average captains?

[(SIC)NESS]

hitsugaya said that if aizen managed to take control over 10 VL's SS would be doomed he never said that they are arrancars if 10 "normal" VL's could kick SS butt then 10 arrancar VL's would totally annihilate SS so if there is a second wave of espada then that woul also mean an awesome fight between VL's and vaizard's isshin and all of them crazy biatches with awesome power

[kochito22]

Hitsugaya said if Aizen manages to bring 10 vasto under his control, SS's toast, right? He didn't say if they were arrancar vasto lordes. The vasto just need a leader, someone to bring them together.

[Sensui]

Couldn't it also be theorized that, like Adjuchas, VLs have different power tiers as well? I haven't seen much of this line of thought. We know Grimmjow, Noitora, and Szayel were all Adjuchas... yet all three had VASTLY different power levels. If the same is true for VLs than it could easily mean that some VLs are equal to High Tiers captains before becoming an arrancar. If that is the case than they would exceed the power level of a High Tier captain after becoming an arrancar.

Now, just for example, if Stark was the equal of a high tier captain before he became an arrancar than wouldnt he be higher now that he is one? I am NOT saying that he was the equal of a high tier before becoming one but it is possible.

If that IS the case than why would Aizen need an entire second wave?

So far we have seen Halibel probably OHKO Hitsugaya. there goes one captain.

I can't see Soi Fong beating Barragon. There goes two.

So even if Stark and Shunsui tie or kill each other or one dies. That Leaves 3 captains out of the fight and one Espada out of the fight. If you stop and think about it for a moment, depending on how much energy the espada exert, they maybe able to finish off the two of the remaining three captains there, Ukitake and Konomaru, Before being withdrawn by Aizen.. leaving Aizen, Gin, and Tosen to deal with Yama. Knowing Aizen he would probably have SOME method to disable Yama, I doubt he would ever want to throw down with the old guy so he would have had to of come up with a way around Yama.

In Theory Aizen could walk away from this fight loosing No or One Espada... still have three captains on his side (including himself), 2-3 espada, Wonderwice, and whatever else he has cooked up. It wouldnt surprise me if Ichigo looses to Ulq and Ulq is summoned to the front.

This would leave plenty of opponents for the Vaizard to fight. We dont know the power level of the Vaizards and what they can really do. We know they are tough, but we dont know how tough. We also dont know if grimmjow is dead or not, so thats another potential fighter for Aizen if he can manage to get to K-town.

I guess what I'm saying is that the idea that "Aizen HAS to have a second wave of Espada" doesn't make any sense to me given what we already know. Could he possibly have a second wave? Yes of course. However there is no Guarantee of it and people are saying it like its fact. The one thing that would make me say he might have one is to deal with the Royal guard, but this IS Aizen here. We have seen what he can do and he may also have a way around them as well. Knowing that he would have to break through the Gotei 13, and likely the ROyal Guard, he would have been prepared for those two groups... the only wild card in all reality is actually the Vaizards because we don't know whether he planned for them or not. Hell for all we know whatever Aizen did to turn them all into Vaizards could actually have had a side effect that he can exploit and gain control of them. Maybe the Vaizards are the second wave of Espada. Far fetched on that one I know... but saying anything is a given at this point is really just jumping to conclusions.

[smacharia8]

bvPQ8e_NUso

At 0:26, it's said that "a Vasto Lorde's battle abilities are even greater than a captain's."

Wouldn't that mean that Vasto Lorde > average captains?Let me rephrase it: VLs own avg captains and go toe-to-toe the hightiers.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

Half the problem is that people don't take Hitsugaya seriously when he says a VL has greater battle capabilities than a captain. Everyone says "What would he know he's just a kid" or "He's a weak captain so he doesn't know anything". He's a frigging captain! It doesn't matter if he's a low tier or not (personally I'd place him as a mid tier) he's still going to have a fair lot of knowledge. Besides, where do you think he got his intel from? The gotei have a library of knowledge that has been passed down for generations, so to doubt Hitsugaya's intel is to doubt centuries of shinigami knowledge. IMO, a pre-arrancarised VL is the same strength as a high tier captain, and therefore a VL arrancar is stronger than any of the current captains. The only exception would be Ulquiorra but I believe that a released Halibel could even take down Yama.

[pumpkin13]

Half the problem is that people don't take Hitsugaya seriously when he says a VL has greater battle capabilities than a captain. Everyone says "What would he know he's just a kid" or "He's a weak captain so he doesn't know anything". He's a frigging captain! It doesn't matter if he's a low tier or not (personally I'd place him as a mid tier) he's still going to have a fair lot of knowledge. Besides, where do you think he got his intel from? The gotei have a library of knowledge that has been passed down for generations, so to doubt Hitsugaya's intel is to doubt centuries of shinigami knowledge. IMO, a pre-arrancarised VL is the same strength as a high tier captain, and therefore a VL arrancar is stronger than any of the current captains. The only exception would be Ulquiorra but I believe that a released Halibel could even take down Yama.

Your post is reasonable up to saying a VL unarrancarised is the same strength as a high tier captain, for which you have no evidence whatsoever at all.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

If an un-arrancarised VL has battle capabilities greater than your average captain then that would make them above average, which is the same as a high-tier captain, also above average.

[justin43]

I guess we will see if your theory about an arrancarized VL being stronger than any captain is true when we see if Stark can defeat Shunshi, who is unreleased two-sword right now. The problem is that Hitsugaya just said captains are weaker than VLs. This could mean anywhere between low-tier captains(Hitsugaya) to S-tier captain level(Yama and Aizen). I do expect all the espada to win their fights and force the vaizards to assist the Gotei 13, but I want to point that out.

[pumpkin13]

I disagree with "above average" being the same as "high tier". Above average says to be a little better than Byakuya and Kenpachi, whereas i'm predicting (and fair enough, its still only a predicition) that Shunsui, Ukitake and Unohana far outstrip Byakuya and Kenpachi.

[Stri]

The only exception would be Ulquiorra but I believe that a released Halibel could even take down Yama.

Lol'd. If you truly believe that, then Aizen has seriously been wasting a shit load of time and everything he's basically done since the beginning of the HM arc is useless. He could have made that key a long time ago.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

Remember though Aizen is a master planner so everything he does has a purpose of some sort. That's like saying he could've done the whole taking over central 46 any time he wanted, but he didn't because it didn't fit in with his plans. Aizen has likely been trying to find more VL since returning to HM, as well as the process of creating arrancar with the hogyoku. He needed to create some form of army before creating the King's Key, otherwise he would've had to face the captains and VCs on his own, not to mention Zero squad.

[pumpkin13]

No he didn't have to create any using an unawakened Hougoukyu before taking on Soul Society. His impatience and curiosity led him to do so. Remember the whole 3 month time plan? SS were content to retreat and prepare defences and wait for him to come to them. Then he abducted Orhime forcing Ichigo to bring the fight to him.

He may be a master planner, but he is ipatient, and to an extent predictable, as demonstrated by Yama-jii doing the karakura town swap. Whatever you say, that caught Aizen off guard, he wasn't expecting that and only realised once he walked through the Garganta into KKT.

[TokyoRacer]

Um, I could have swore that previously they discovered that Karakura town would be attacked since it lays on some precious spirit group, and has the 100,000 spirits or so Aizen needs to create the King's Key.

So...it makes sense that they made preparations for that.

[pumpkin13]

100,000 spirits or so yeah, special spirit group? He could have gone anywhere for 100,000 souls. Conveniant plot device that he just so happened to choose the home town of the main protagonist.

And actually your point would only suggest that Aizen was retarded in not guessing that they'd fortify Karakura Town. Evidently not as masterful a planner as everyone thinks. Yeah sure he likely has a back up plan or two, but if he was so masterful he would have predicted/ prepared for the possibility of them doing something with KKT and planned his initial plan to accomodate it instead of leaving it to a secondary plan.

[TokyoRacer]

Actually no. It was stated that the only way to gather the 100,000 souls necessary is they need to be on some sort of special spiritual ground or something, that supposedly changes position over the years. It just so happens to be on Karakura Town.

It was all explained.


http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107942/09.jpg


http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107942/10.jpg


http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107942/11.jpg



learn2manga.



And could have swore Aizen said immediately that he knew the Karakura town that stood before him wasn't the real one.

[pumpkin13]

How conveniant that the Juureichi just happened to be KKT at this particular point. My second paragraph still stands.

[TokyoRacer]

How conveniant that the Juureichi just happened to be KKT at this particular point. My second paragraph still stands.


Take issue with KT then. He's the one who is creating the story.



Edit - You take Bleach way too seriously. It's a make believe world that you don't control. KT controls.

Honestly, Aizen is a great villain.

[pumpkin13]

i'm well aware it's plot construction, I don't really have an issue with it. It aids my Aizen is overrated arguement.

[TokyoRacer]

i'm well aware it's plot construction, I don't really have an issue with it. It aids my Aizen is overrated arguement.


Yamamoto is overrated as well.

[pumpkin13]

Not by nearly as many people as Aizen. And Kubo set Yama up on that pedestal himself. his rank demands it.

Anyway this is completely off topic.

[Intense]

Who said anything about Yama lol?

[TokyoRacer]

*yawn*

Your fanboyism bores me to tears pumpkin.

Say what you want about Aizen. The fact is, he plotted to betray, and overthrow Soul Society at least 100 years prior to the Bleach storyline. Patience, you say? The man plotted in secret with his subordinates to destroy Soul Society, and overtake the Spirit King for the past 100 years or so...at least that we know about. He was able to keep his true intentions a complete secret from everyone including your precious Yamamoto. He was able to gain the trust of EVERYONE.

I think you're grossly under estimating Aizen as a villain. The fact he has continually out smarted Soul Society for over a 100 years only further strengthens how wonderful of a villain he is.

So, when a new group a villains show up that turn out to be VL's, and Aizen's patience in his current situation is shown to be just, I will be the first to say I told you so. Seriously. If it really was a desperate time for Aizen...he would be taking desperate measures. He's not desperate. Not even close.

[pumpkin13]

You said it yourself he's a master of deception. He could be shitting bricks and you wouldn't know it because he can keep a straight face.

If he was patient he would have continued with his own experiments and eventually found a way to do what the Hougoukyu would do without it. But he found out about it and thought, fuck taking the long route, I'll use that.

Continually? No, once, over a 100 year period. It's been one big ruse, not lots of little ones.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Yama had known about his scheming character all along. He gets him promoted to Captain so he can follow his movements more closely, keep your friends close, your enemies even closer etc, but he doesn't take any action himself to avoid the chance of Aizen discovering he's being watched and thus force him to make any unnatural movements. He lets Aizen go through with his coup because not only does it get his character out in the open, but it gets rid of C46 for Yama without him having to lift a finger, the blame is on Aizen, and Yama gets full control of the G13 and doesn't have to take orders from anyone. I haven't seen Yama looked shocked or taken aback or comment on how Aizen has fooled him even once. You don't get to the position of captain commander by being unobservant and unaware of those around you.

When another group of VLs turn up I will be one of the first to go "fuck yeah didn't I say so" cus that's what i've been saying since i joined BE.

I do not underestimate his potential for deception and cunning, I however just do not think he is a uberly powerful (ie. in terms of reiatsu) as many do. His speciality for visual, audio, tactile, gustatory and olfactory perceptions completely circumnavigates he's need for power. Or more, his need for Kubo to create him to be an uber reiatsu monster like Yama is implied to be.

[Terabane]

You said it yourself he's a master of deception. He could be shitting bricks and you wouldn't know it because he can keep a straight face.

If he was patient he would have continued with his own experiments and eventually found a way to do what the Hougoukyu would do without it. But he found out about it and thought, fuck taking the long route, I'll use that.

Continually? No, once, over a 100 year period. It's been one big ruse, not lots of little ones.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Yama had known about his scheming character all along. He gets him promoted to Captain so he can follow his movements more closely, keep your friends close, your enemies even closer etc, but he doesn't take any action himself to avoid the chance of Aizen discovering he's being watched and thus force him to make any unnatural movements. He lets Aizen go through with his coup because not only does it get his character out in the open, but it gets rid of C46 for Yama without him having to lift a finger, the blame is on Aizen, and Yama gets full control of the G13 and doesn't have to take orders from anyone. I haven't seen Yama looked shocked or taken aback or comment on how Aizen has fooled him even once. You don't get to the position of captain commander by being unobservant and unaware of those around you.

When another group of VLs turn up I will be one of the first to go "fuck yeah didn't I say so" cus that's what i've been saying since i joined BE.

I do not underestimate his potential for deception and cunning, I however just do not think he is a uberly powerful (ie. in terms of reiatsu) as many do. His speciality for visual, audio, tactile, gustatory and olfactory perceptions completely circumnavigates he's need for power. Or more, his need for Kubo to create him to be an uber reiatsu monster like Yama is implied to be.

It worked well for Shinji that theory, not that Yama and Shinji are one and the same but Aizen is a great Villain who has predetermined almost everything, even when Yama-jii encased them in inferno he was completely calm and claimed everything was under control.

[pumpkin13]

Shinji isn't yama, has not had 2000 plus years of experience watching those around him, above him and below him.

As for the inferno, what did I say? Aizen is a Grade A deciever, he could talk you into killing your own granny, he could be shitting bricks inside there (i don't personally think he is) but you wouldn't know about it, because he keeps his emotions on the inside, if anything HE is the true vaizard, covering his face with a mask of emotionless perception. You wouldn't know if he was worried or not. He's only lost his poker face once. And that's when he came into KKT out of the garganta.

[grimmjow58]

Alltought both TokyoRacer and Pumkin13 have valuable arguments i'll have to side with pumkin, i'll admit that Aizen is above midtier-captain level he still isn't hightier-captain material yet.

Aizen is a master of deception even if he would lose he still keeps the poker face, so u never know what he's thinking, but i'l agree that Yama well knew what Aizaen was planning and played along with his plans like Pumkin said so he could gain controle as head boss with central 46 gone.

Aither way Aizen isn't as uber as poeple think i'm sure against Yama,Shuinsui,Ukitake, and Unohana he would lose.

[pumpkin13]

I'm not posing my "Yama knew about everything all along" theory as something I firmly believe in and devoutly follow. But I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that Yama was indeed calling the shots, and letting Aizen think he was making the moves.

[grimmjow58]

True but Yama doesn't strike me as the type that wouldn't know whats going on, he looks like the type that what let you do as you please with out letting u aware of him knowing what your up to.

[TokyoRacer]

tl;dr

Cliffnotes please. I'm not interested in reading your typical wall of text posts.


Also if that were true about Yama knowing about Aizen all along...why the hell would he bother fighting and potentially killing Shunsui and Ukitake? Or going through with the execution of Rukia? Your logic makes zero sense.

[easY]

Alltought both TokyoRacer and Pumkin13 have valuable arguments i'll have to side with pumkin, i'll admit that Aizen is above midtier-captain level he still isn't hightier-captain material yet.

Aizen is a master of deception even if he would lose he still keeps the poker face, so u never know what he's thinking, but i'l agree that Yama well knew what Aizaen was planning and played along with his plans like Pumkin said so he could gain controle as head boss with central 46 gone.

Aither way Aizen isn't as uber as poeple think i'm sure against Yama,Shuinsui,Ukitake, and Unohana he would lose.

What what WHAT?!

You've seen Aizen crush 2 other captains in a matter of seconds, one with a kidou spell and one an unreleased zanpaktou.

Unohana wouldn't stand a chance, she's already under the spell from "Kyouka Suigetsu"...

It's just unfathomable that you think Aizen isn't amongst the top-tier captains tbh.

I'm not posing my "Yama knew about everything all along" theory as something I firmly believe in and devoutly follow. But I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that Yama was indeed calling the shots, and letting Aizen think he was making the moves.

Why would he let people be slaughtered in his jurisdiction? Why would he be pissed off in KKT if he was in control? lol.

[Lune]

Anyway this is completely off topic.

Yes it is. I think it's about time this thread got back on topic, don't you? :odd:

[easY]

Yes it is. I think it's about time this thread got back on topic, don't you? :odd:

NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVER!

Personally, I'm hoping Ulq isn't a VL, otherwise Ichigo would have progressed too quickly for my liking. x[

[pumpkin13]

I wouldn't have a problem if he was a low tier VL, like maybe a naturally arrancarised one without the help of the hougoukyu, or if it was below par efficiency when it was used to make him.

[McFlyan]

I wouldn't have a problem if he was a low tier VL, like maybe a naturally arrancarised one without the help of the hougoukyu, or if it was below par efficiency when it was used to make him.

Hmmm, good thought pumpkin i like that one!

[ms07gtr]

I wouldn't have a problem if he was a low tier VL, like maybe a naturally arrancarised one without the help of the hougoukyu, or if it was below par efficiency when it was used to make him.


I had this thought as well. If they were made using it at say around 40-50% efficiency it could have actualy hurt them as much as helped. That and the process may have a learning curve Aizen has yet to overcome to get the result needed. Perhaps that is why he was so interested in Orihime's ability. Something he could use to advance this process.

[|-TheExile-|]

The hougoukyu seems to work in a discrete, not linear fashion. For Aizen to use it to create Wonderwyce, he needed to "awaken" it, by feeding it his own reiatsu. It doesn't make sense to me, then, to say that it was less than perfectly efficient.

The reason why SS was willing to wait and prepare for Aizen was that they thought they had quite a lot of time before the hougoukyu woke up on its own. That's not the case, though, because Aizen can use it freely when he momentarily wakes it up.

I don't think we need to rationalize why Ichigo > Ulquiorra, because Ulquiorra stated that this was the case. It's a matter of how much of his own ability Ichigo can tap into, that's all.

[pumpkin13]

When he awakens it by temporarily infusing it with his own reiatsu he is awakening it prematurely, thus it is almost certainly not going to be as efficient as if he let it reach 100% power of its own natural accord.

[plotkaislayer]

Haha.. so if Ichigo beats Ulquiorra, it's Aizen's fault?

Aside: Is the forum running really slowly for anyone else?

[pumpkin13]

not for me, it just seems to have more than the usual level of single brain celled organisms on tonight... =_=

[Lune]

I like the idea of Ulq being a VL created when the hougoukyu was at below par efficiency.

Aside: Is the forum running really slowly for anyone else?

A slight slowness, but Cursed asked the same as you so something may be up with the server somewhere.

[ms07gtr]

When he awakens it by temporarily infusing it with his own reiatsu he is awakening it prematurely, thus it is almost certainly not going to be as efficient as if he let it reach 100% power of its own natural accord.

Exactly, probably also why he is still looking for VL. At the rate his Pawns are dying off he will need reinforcements sooner rather than later.

Haha.. so if Ichigo beats Ulquiorra, it's Aizen's fault?

Aside: Is the forum running really slowly for anyone else?


Lol! I would look at it more as formula writing, but that works just as well.

All my other forums are running smooth so its probably just the server.

[plotkaislayer]

Yeah, the server was pretty slow; then, I think my neighbor set up 100000000000000000 torrents or something and lowered my bandwidth. Anyway, it's so hard to know what a VL is since we only know what Hitsugaya told us in that on instance. I've long thought that the only VL is Wonderwice but have *no* proof. Just a hunch. I always imagined Ulq. saying something like, "Oh, so you really think you've won?" after Ichigo slays him. Then, WW awakens from a child into an adult, like Nell did against Nnoitora.. except at a VL level.

But that's just me daydreaming. Who knows what KT has in store? :) The half-baked VL theory is just as good--Aizen was experimenting on hollows without concern for their fate. Those he rated a success he kept around. Those he rated a failure he destroyed. That's enough to draw more powerful hollows into your allegiance anyway.

Oh, and do I remember correctly that some HM hollows mentioned that there were factions of hollows opposed to Aizen? Or was that the anime adding quasi-canon to canon?

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

Yeah, the server was pretty slow; then, I think my neighbor set up 100000000000000000 torrents or something and lowered my bandwidth. Anyway, it's so hard to know what a VL is since we only know what Hitsugaya told us in that on instance. I've long thought that the only VL is Wonderwice but have *no* proof. Just a hunch. I always imagined Ulq. saying something like, "Oh, so you really think you've won?" after Ichigo slays him. Then, WW awakens from a child into an adult, like Nell did against Nnoitora.. except at a VL level.

But that's just me daydreaming. Who knows what KT has in store? :) The half-baked VL theory is just as good--Aizen was experimenting on hollows without concern for their fate. Those he rated a success he kept around. Those he rated a failure he destroyed. That's enough to draw more powerful hollows into your allegiance anyway.

Oh, and do I remember correctly that some HM hollows mentioned that there were factions of hollows opposed to Aizen? Or was that the anime adding quasi-canon to canon?

I'm pretty certain that only happened in the anime during those episodes where Renji and those Bounto finders or whatever faught against a bunch of rebel arrancar. None of this happened in the manga but I would say it's still safe to assume that not all hollow/arrancar in HM like Aizen eg Grimmjow.

[|-TheExile-|]

When he awakens it by temporarily infusing it with his own reiatsu he is awakening it prematurely, thus it is almost certainly not going to be as efficient as if he let it reach 100% power of its own natural accord.

I don't see how that follows. What we know as of right now is this: if it's not woken up, it doesn't work; if it is, it does. I don't see any reason to complicate matters more than that, since we have no information as to how it actually works.

[plotkaislayer]

I'm pretty certain that only happened in the anime during those episodes where Renji and those Bounto finders or whatever faught against a bunch of rebel arrancar. None of this happened in the manga but I would say it's still safe to assume that not all hollow/arrancar in HM like Aizen eg Grimmjow.

Yeah, that's right. And there was something similar to this during the Nel/Nnoitara flashbacks, as well, I think. Thanks for setting me straight. :tongue:

[fakeobsession]

I think that all the answers to that question will be given tomorrow with the new episode where Ulqui is going to show us his release...I am sure KT is going to give us more info about it.

[ms07gtr]

I don't see how that follows. What we know as of right now is this: if it's not woken up, it doesn't work; if it is, it does. I don't see any reason to complicate matters more than that, since we have no information as to how it actually works.

Its not fully awake. If someone gets you up out of bed after say 3 hours of sleep and immediatly makes you take a test while still groggy and half awake, how well will you do? If they allow you to sleep your full 8 hours, wake up naturaly, and eat breakfast before taking the test, how well will you do in comparison? A car is least efficent during the first ten minutes of opperation, it has to warm up. Do you need any more examples? This is true for just about everything BTW.

[Captain Abarai]

Psst. I'm about to say something really rediculous.

Only Stark is a Vasto Lorde

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/313/14/ Hollow Hole in middle of chest.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/16/ Same deal.

Ulquiorra's Hole is slightly higher http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/271/17/

Feel free to dismantle, debunk, expose and flame. Just throwing something else out there I haven't seen on this forum. Stark looks more suited to the *knightly* appearance anyways.

[plotkaislayer]

I saw you post that in the other thread, too, Abarai. I thought it was a keen observation but one perhaps not affirming what the Ulq. fans believe. I never thought the images were meant to signify particular espada but to remind you of them.

But, knowing what little we do know, it looks like Ulq. is probably reaching VL levels in strength. The only measures we have is the size and appearance, yet others have pointed out that we have witnessed other small, humanoid arrancar that in no way resembled VLs. So, we can refer to one last piece of datum: that Ulq. is #4 Espada, a rank not permitted to release under the dome in Las Noches. So, we have a lot of data suggesting VL power levels but no way of knowing.

Edit: fakeobsession's post below me is right about the hole location. We can't forget that KT forgets to draw one altogether, as with Yammi a couple chapters ago.

I don't know. I woke up this morning thinking there was no way Ulq. was a VL. After reading a bunch of people's posts here and elsewhere, I'm starting to open up to the idea.

[fakeobsession]

But Ulquiorras was previously in a higher spot...Now it's almost in the middle...
You can't be accurate about that. For KT changing that means that he decided to make it a characteristic of V.L adding him in this rank

[Captain Abarai]

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/344/01/

Here's a another later pic of Ulq.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/344/09/

...and another. Note these are all higher. Right at the collarbone.

And don't only note that. Notice his helmet. It has that bent that points straight up. The silhouette doesn't...they poke straight out.

[easY]

[QUOTE=Captain Abarai;1612476]Psst. I'm about to say something really rediculous.

Only Stark is a Vasto Lorde

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/313/14/ Hollow Hole in middle of chest.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/16/ Same deal.

Ulquiorra's Hole is slightly higher http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/271/17/

EDIT:

http://i43.tinypic.com/2gwuwic.jpg

Horns look straight in that

[|-TheExile-|]

Its not fully awake. If someone gets you up out of bed after say 3 hours of sleep and immediatly makes you take a test while still groggy and half awake, how well will you do? If they allow you to sleep your full 8 hours, wake up naturaly, and eat breakfast before taking the test, how well will you do in comparison? A car is least efficent during the first ten minutes of opperation, it has to warm up. Do you need any more examples? This is true for just about everything BTW.

There's no connection between any of the examples that you've given and the hyougouku. It's certainly true that in certain cases, efficient production varies non-linearly with time. It's just that we've been given no reason to believe this is the case about our magic plot device, regardless of how reasonable a presupposition it is.

A better analogy would be, I'm woken up after 3 hours, given a shot of adrenaline (i.e. Aizen's reiatsu) and asked to run a marathon. That's more akin to what the hyougouku does.

[Intense]

Psst. I'm about to say something really rediculous.

Only Stark is a Vasto Lorde

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/313/14/ Hollow Hole in middle of chest.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/16/ Same deal.

Ulquiorra's Hole is slightly higher http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/271/17/

Feel free to dismantle, debunk, expose and flame. Just throwing something else out there I haven't seen on this forum. Stark looks more suited to the *knightly* appearance anyways.

When was it stated vastos have the hollow hole always in the same spot?

[Captain Abarai]

I saw you post that in the other thread, too, Abarai. I thought it was a keen observation but one perhaps not affirming what the Ulq. fans believe. I never thought the images were meant to signify particular espada but to remind you of them.

Sure. I'm just making a leap in judgment. Somethin' different than the obvious.

But, knowing what little we do know, it looks like Ulq. is probably reaching VL levels in strength. The only measures we have is the size and appearance, yet others have pointed out that we have witnessed other small, humanoid arrancar that in no way resembled VLs.

Sure! It's sorta like fossils...there's transitional fossils which contain features of the past and where it's headed. Or Saxophones for that matter...from Conn New Wonder to Conn 6M you have the Transitional with features of both.

So this could explain why we're seeing *hints*.. rather than a sudden BANG this one is no doubt a VL... some of the hints we speculated are, maintaining a weapon after release, having a humanoid appearance, not turning into pumpkins or blobs of old Gum. Grimmjow to me looks to be the start of the *transitional* Adjuchas with a leaner body type but still no weapon, but the power is capped off.

So, we can refer to one last piece of datum: that Ulq. is #4 Espada, a rank not permitted to release under the dome in Las Noches. So, we have a lot of data suggesting VL power levels but no way of knowing.

That's the weakling in my crackpot theory. Some could speculate that if #4 and above have to release outside of the dome its that ALL are Vasto Lorde.

Wouldn't make sense for it if just 1 is, or the top 3 for that matter. Or, it could mean they are lately boosted Adjuchas who are at the highest end of power breaching into low Vasto Lorde power, BUT, still maintain a similarity to an animal release. Hence the bat.

If I use the silhouette verbatim in all of it's vaugeness... I'd deduct that Stark's release would be the most humanoid. No extra limbs, or wings.

[Soltir]

I don't think that a hollow hole defines whether the hollow is a vasto lorde or not.

[Captain Abarai]

When was it stated vastos have the hollow hole always in the same spot?

When have I said that? lol

I took a panel of Stark that shows a good spot of where his Hollow Hole is.

Compared it to the silhouette when Hitsugaya was talking and blatantly assumed that is Stark release *as opposed to the previously assumed Ulquiorra..*

Made a blatant judgement. If the holes are in the same place, they both are Stark

Found panels of Ulquiorra's Hollow Hole. Old and recent pics. Compared them.

Made a blatant judgement that his Hole is slightly higher with the top end of the circle reaching around the collar bone. Stark's hole is lower than that collarbone line. To my own judgement and opinion of course.

[Intense]

You said Ulq, Halibel and Baragan are not vastos 'cuz they don't have the hole in the same spot as the silhouete. That's like saying Vastos will always have the hole there.

[Captain Abarai]

Stark is the only Vasto 'cuz his hollow hole is in the same spot as the silhouete is what you said. That's no different than saying all Vastos will have the hole there.

All I said was that silhouette that appeared when Hitsugaya was speaking on the characteristics of a Vasto Lorde point towards an image of Stark release *pure speculation arrived by comparing only Stark's hole to that sillhouette, NOT comparing *Vasto Lorde* to having a hole there. Just Stark.*.

Another example would be NOBODY once said that ALL Adjuchas would look like that depiction above in the same page and have their holes there.

But some have projected that since that one's Hollow Hole is in the middle of the chest, it's probably Yammi released. Going on it's massive size as well.

Why Yammi? Because he has the hole in a similar spot. Why Stark? Cause he has a hole in a similar spot. If that sillhouette was female and had breasts, we'd say it's Halibel.

Not ALL Vasto Lorde are female. rofl.

Stark being the ONLY VL is just my own crack pot theory. Stark being the VL image depicted in that chapter page is just my guess.

[Meta]

I believe that Ulquiorra is actually a VL.Maybe my judgment is way too much clouded by the fanboyism I don't know,but he looks a lot more humanoid than GJ and Noitra

[Xenofear]

Did it ever say that Vasto Lordes need to continue consuming their own kind to sustain their form? If they do, it really doesn't explain Starks laid-back attitude. Maybe Barragan thought he was the king/strongest, then they found Stark sleeping in a cave? lol.

If they don't need to consume there own, then I believe that Stark could be the only VL. I only say this because he seems to be the only one that isn't trying to show case his power.

[Intense]

Stark may have acquired his lazyness after becoming an arrancar in which state he doesn't need to do anything to sustain his form.

[ms07gtr]

TheExile

:Facepalm: The Point is if somethings half functional it doesn't work properly or efficently.

Starks lazyness is what leads me to think he is a VL. Why work for more power if your at the peak?

[Matt]

TheExile

:Facepalm: The Point is if somethings half functional it doesn't work properly or efficently.

Starks lazyness is what leads me to think he is a VL. Why work for more power if your at the peak?

Who said he's at his peak?

a Vasto Lorde's capabilities just don't stop right when you become a Vasto Lorde.

Look at the Adjuchas, the top tier adjuchas are at a much higher level than the lower tier adjuchas (Ex. The espada Arrancar Adjuchas vs the Numeros)

Anyways, him being lazy is probably just his personality, just like Shunsui. Shunsui most likely hasn't maxed out his full power, but he's shown to be very lazy.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

@Abarai: Just remember that Ulquiorra's hollow hole has moved since we first saw him from his neck to his chest. In fact it was moved after the decription of a VL was given. Irony much?

I still believe 1-4 are VL, doesn't matter where their holes are. However, based on Ulquiorra's release, would you say he looks humanoid enough to be VL? I say yes simply because: if it wasn't for the wings he would look like a regular person wearing a battle helmet. His weapon also appears to be extra-dimensional as he can make it appear at will out of no where

[pumpkin13]

Who said he's at his peak?

a Vasto Lorde's capabilities just don't stop right when you become a Vasto Lorde.

Look at the Adjuchas, the top tier adjuchas are at a much higher level than the lower tier adjuchas (Ex. The espada Arrancar Adjuchas vs the Numeros)

Anyways, him being lazy is probably just his personality, just like Shunsui. Shunsui most likely hasn't maxed out his full power, but he's shown to be very lazy.

He said at "the" peak, I would assume he meant peak of the Espada, you're already at the top there's no need to work harder to try and beat the one above you cus their isn't anybody above you. That's just my reading.

[ms07gtr]

@Abarai: Just remember that Ulquiorra's hollow hole has moved since we first saw him from his neck to his chest. In fact it was moved after the decription of a VL was given. Irony much?

I still believe 1-4 are VL, doesn't matter where their holes are. However, based on Ulquiorra's release, would you say he looks humanoid enough to be VL? I say yes simply because: if it wasn't for the wings he would look like a regular person wearing a battle helmet. His weapon also appears to be extra-dimensional as he can make it appear at will out of no where

And thats about all Noritora did as well. He added a few arms, take 4 away he looks the same. Its the same amount of change and we know if Noritora was a VL he would have gloated about it non-stop. Hell if he was the most powerfull adjuchas he would have gloated about that. Still wating on manga conformation on any being a VL.

He said at "the" peak, I would assume he meant peak of the Espada, you're already at the top there's no need to work harder to try and beat the one above you cus their isn't anybody above you. That's just my reading.

Yes Reading comprehension FTW! He is ranked number one. There is no one to surpass at this point, so he can be lazy all he wants.

[Yayap]

That VL silhouette does look like it could be Stark. But I think we can definitely now say it does not look like Ulquiorra. Aside from the wings, Ulqui' now has a smaller pair of horns in addition to his unreleased form's horn. Not to mention that the horns in the silhouette are at different angles & shorter.

I used to be convinced that the Adjucha silhouette was of Yammi, but now I don't see as much of a resemblance of the two anymore.

[Lnrd]

I think BLEACH fans are overexamining those silhouettes. I think Kubo put them there to show you a basic example of how one looks. Kubo did not put those there to say that was Yammy and Ulq, just the basic outline of an Adjuchas and VL. And, now people are saying it might be Stark:huh: just because he has similiar location of his hollow hole. Did you guys miss the ear-horns the silhouette has? People it was just an example.

[a3m43th]

Did it ever say that Vasto Lordes need to continue consuming their own kind to sustain their form? If they do, it really doesn't explain Starks laid-back attitude. Maybe Barragan thought he was the king/strongest, then they found Stark sleeping in a cave? lol.

If they don't need to consume there own, then I believe that Stark could be the only VL. I only say this because he seems to be the only one that isn't trying to show case his power.

they may need to consume adjuchas but i doubt they need to kill each other, otherwise there would be just one.. if i remember correctly hitsugaya said there are only a few VL in the entire hueco mundo so finding one to kill would be like finding a needle in a haystack. plus the one you find might even kill you...

[Rufix]

Hmm it doesn't look very humanly, tbh he looks like some bat...

@Lnrd: I completly agree with you, I too think it was just example of how small and humanoidal VL is, not that Ulq is one, though he surly looks powerful enough also, it wasn't said that VLs looks like humans, but they are similar and rather small, and as someone said Ulq still is humanalike. We'll see when we get a retrospection:P that we'll get for sure.

[justin43]

Where are the bat ears to match the wings, since he is suppose to be a bat.:oh: Why isn't his arms attached to his wings if he was a bat? Where is Ulquiorra's animalish feet to match the supposed bat design? Why isn't his face more like a bat instead of the same face he had before releasing?:oh: I just don't see why you think Ulquiorra's release look like a bat.

The questions in bolded should be answered.

[plotkaislayer]

Where are the bat ears to match the wings, since he is suppose to be a bat.:oh: Why isn't his arms attached to his wings if he was a bat? Where is Ulquiorra's animalish feet to match the supposed bat design? Why isn't his face more like a bat instead of the same face he had before releasing?:oh: I just don't see why you think Ulquiorra's release look like a bat.

The questions in bolded should be answered.

I'll take a shot:

1. He doesn't have any because he's not a bat. He's a demon. That's why his has horns, and the bat wins on his back are detached from his arms.

2. His face looks more or less the same (the tear lines widened) because he's a demon, not a bat. As Yapyap says in the Sins thread, the tear lines indicate his melancholy.

Then again, I think I'm just making your points. People hating on the "batman" thing just enjoy hating in general. Don't let them get to you :)

[dynamo]

I'll take a shot:

1. He doesn't have any because he's not a bat. He's a demon. That's why his has horns, and the bat wins on his back are detached from his arms.

2. His face looks more or less the same (the tear lines widened) because he's a demon, not a bat. As Yapyap says in the Sins thread, the tear lines indicate his melancholy.

Then again, I think I'm just making your points. People hating on the "batman" thing just enjoy hating in general. Don't let them get to you :)

Now I PERSONALLY do not know what bat translates to in Spanish, so could very much be wrong, but aren't people saying that the name of Ulquiorra's release is "bat" in Spanish ?_?

[Lnrd]

^His release name does translate to bat in spanish. But the kanji in Japanese translates to Great Winged Devil or something like that.

[plotkaislayer]

^His release name does translate to bat in spanish. But the kanji in Japanese translates to Great Winged Devil or something like that.

And "Ulquiorra" in Esperanto means, "Batdevilemochild."

[Rufix]

To be honest his 'horns' look like bat's ears;P

[divine saint of aries]

So does Ulquiorra's Resurrection mean he is not a Vasto Lorde?

[Lnrd]

@divine- right now it's up in the air.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

I still strongly believe he is a VL. If he is supposed to look like a bat then you can barely tell if it wasn't for the wings, and if he's supposed to be a demon then he's a very human-looking demon. Either way he's still very human-like in appearance. If you took away the wings he'd look like a human with a battle helmet on. And by the way, he's wearing a ROBE not a frigging dress like people have been saying.

[Lnrd]

I wouldn't mind if Ulq was a VL, but I want VLs to be riduculously strong. So I hope he isn't one.

[Paragon]

I wouldn't mind if Ulq was a VL, but I want VLs to be riduculously strong. So I hope he isn't one.

How strong are you hoping for them to be?

[divine saint of aries]

Strong enough for the top four Espada to defeat the remaining Captains so the Vizards can step in to help.

[plotkaislayer]

These threads have been strangely quiet since the chapter came out. Are you guys not so sure about Ulq. being a VL anymore? Did 345 change anything for anyone?

[Paragon]

I still believe Ulquiorra is a Vasto Lorde.

Strong enough for the top four Espada to defeat the remaining Captains so the Vizards can step in to help.

So you are under the impression that say Shinji is stronger than Yama? Baring in mind that the Vice Captains Vizards probably won't be able to lay a scratch on someone like Stark or even Ulquiorra most likely.

[Lnrd]

@Paragon- I could only hope that when they were hollows they were a little weaker than the BIG 4. (If Kubo says/shows that as hollows they were just as strong I'd jump for joy.) But, as arrancar they should surpass the Big 4. If the top 3 espada are VL arrancar then I'd defenitely want them to beat all the captains in Fake Kurakura. I just want hybrids to be all they were cracked up to be.

@divine- If the top 3 espada are VLs then defenitely. If not they're all going to die.

@plotkaislayer- I'm not so sure anymore if he's a VL because wouldn't Kubo have made note of this? Right now we basicly don't know if we saw the first VL release or not.

EDIT: Paragon there's no reason to believe that the VC Vizards aren't on Ulq's level or beyond it since we haven't seen a thing from them, except Vizard Hiyori cracking Shikai Ichigo's blade. It all depends on if the VC Vizards have achieved bankai, and I'm 100% certain they all have achieved and mastered their bankai. They have had 100 years to train non-stop. Unlike in the Gotei 13 were they have daily tasks.

[Paragon]

If the Vasto Lordes surpassed even Yama himself then the Vizards won't be able to do a thing to them thus Aizen, Gin and Tousen really won't need to fight as Aizen suggested.

I predict Aizen will succeed in creating the Kings Key because if he doesn't the story reaches a stand still but if the 1-4 Espadas are Vasto Lordes neither of them would essentially surpass Yama, if they're close to his level then i'd be very glad, but it'd be wishful thinking to have them surpass him.

[Gohan]

Eh I think you're underestimating the vizards but we can't really say anything for sure since we've never seen them fight at full power. I wouldn't be surprised if Shinji could hold his own against someone like Stark.

[Rufix]

Ok throwing away all shit like: look he looks like VL Hitsugaya was givin as an example, he's got his hollow hole somewhere, he's emo...

Top 4 Espada's releases are too dangerous to be done under dome of LN, I don't see that diffrence between Adjuchas, unless Grimmjow and Nnoi were kinda undone and Ulq is made with full power of Hthingy. Going further, Ulq weapons in Ressurection are really 1337 h4x, something like Seres' (from Hellsing) arm, he can manipulate its shape to a limited extend. Also going by his speed, he did same thing to ichigo as ichigo did to byakuya in SS arc, breakin his mask and nearly loppin of his head... In addition http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/16/ says clearly they are just about human size, not that they look like humans true? Ulq release maybe isn't most humanoidal, but still he isn't crazy big like Nnoi or furry like GJ true?

As for his look, Ulq horns really remind me of bat's ears, though his wings are more of a demon than a bat;P

Edit: as for VC rank Vizards, they've got hundred years for training, I think they've gotten much stronger, maybe some of them obtained bankai too

[Paragon]

Eh I think you're underestimating the vizards but we can't really say anything for sure since we've never seen them fight at full power. I wouldn't be surprised if Shinji could hold his own against someone like Stark.

Not really. I think people overestimate the Vizards heavily, we've seen so little of them yet some wish to believe that they're have power that rivals that of Yama, even though all we've seen that can be regarded as "impressive" is Shinji own an already injured and one armed unreleased Grimmjow.

I have no doubt the Vizards are strong, but if the Vasto Lordes do indeed surpass Yama's level then they'd lose. Although personally i could see them not even fighting the Vasto Lordes in this arc, assuming the 1-3 are Vasto Lordes.

[Rufix]

I don't see VL surpass Yama, no freakin way, Yama can incinerate everything with his glance, not to mention bankai;p

As for Shinji and injured one-handed Grimmjow duel. Shinji was TOYING with him without even Shikai or mask. Ichigo needed BANKAI and he was barely on pair.

But I agree, Espada vs Vizard fights won't happen in this arc.

[Paragon]

I don't see VL surpass Yama, no freakin way, Yama can incinerate everything with his glance, not to mention bankai;p

As for Shinji and injured one-handed Grimmjow duel. Shinji was TOYING with him without even Shikai or mask. Ichigo needed BANKAI and he was barely on pair.

But I agree, Espada vs Vizard fights won't happen in this arc.

Yama incinerating everything is an assumption made based on the word 'incinerate' being apart of his Shikai command.

As for Shinji, he dodged one attack from Grimmjow without his mask, how is that suddenly toying with Grimmjow? Ichigo in Bankai minus any form of interference from Hichigo is on par with unreleased Grimmjow, take note of their third fight for evidence.

[He's a Mentalist]

Vasto Lordes

A vasto lorde is at the strength of a captain and is somewhat well equipped in their respective abilities as hollow. But! Vasto Lorde's aren't arrancarnized either. They are just the highest class of hollow. In some aspects if Aizen were to use the HG on them they would be even more powerful than their initial forms.

One thing I have come across. Could these same VL's use shinigami based abilities like kidou for instance? If so, then SS is truly messed up. I am guessing it takes thousands of years to finally become a VL so most of them may be as old as Unohana, Yama, Shunsui, and Ukitake.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

A vasto lorde is at the strength of a captain and is somewhat well equipped in their respective abilities as hollow. But! Vasto Lorde's aren't arrancarnized either. They are just the highest class of hollow. In some aspects if Aizen were to use the HG on them they would be even more powerful than their initial forms.

One thing I have come across. Could these same VL's use shinigami based abilities like kidou for instance? If so, then SS is truly messed up. I am guessing it takes thousands of years to finally become a VL so most of them may be as old as Unohana, Yama, Shunsui, and Ukitake.

Correction, above captain strength, or at least greater battle capabilities. A vasto lorde(unarrancarised) is pretty much the hollow equivalent of a high-tier captain class shinigami, due to their rarety and renowned strength rated signifcantly higher than any other hollow form. They could be hundreds or even thousands of years old to have gotten to where they are, just like the high-tier captains. However once arrancarised this raises them to a level which should theoretically surpass any of the current captains in the gotei. Aizen must know this if he's so confident he won't have to lift a finger even with Yama in the fight.

[Intense]

Vastos, just like any other group, will likely range in strength, there may be a Vasto just slightly stronger than Hitsugaya. That's still 'stronger than a captain'. Then again there may be one stronger than Yamamoto even before arrancarization.

Assuming the left Espada are Vastos and there will be ten of them like hinted:

1. ?
2. ?
3. ?
4. ?
5. ?
6. WW (putting him above Stark just because)
7. Stark
8. Barragan
9. Halibel
10. Ulquiorra

I believe Yamamoto and perhaps Shunsui&Ukitake can survive this fight, if the Vastos to come are stronger ones (like shounen law demans) and this is we have now is the "weaker" half.

I don't think they're that uber yet 'cuz I don't Aizen is that uber (stronger than Yama) yet.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

Vastos, just like any other group, will likely range in strength, there may be a Vasto just slightly stronger than Hitsugaya. That's still 'stronger than a captain'. Then again there may be one stronger than Yamamoto even before arrancarization.

Assuming the left Espada are Vastos and there will be ten of them like hinted:

1. ?
2. ?
3. ?
4. ?
5. ?
6. WW (putting him above Stark just because)
7. Stark
8. Barragan
9. Halibel
10. Ulquiorra

I believe Yamamoto and perhaps Shunsui&Ukitake can survive this fight, if the Vastos to come are stronger ones (like shounen law demans) and this is we have now is the "weaker" half.

I don't think they're that uber yet 'cuz I don't Aizen is that uber (stronger than Yama) yet.

IMO Shunsui will die, and Ukitake and Yama will be heavily injured. I still see no reason why the top 3 Espada shouldn't be THAT powerful. Besides after the king's key is created and the fighting moves to the king's dimension, SS won't be allowed to follow Aizen which means the captains will no longer play a significant role and it will shift to the Royal Guard. Then that would mean the only way Ichigo could gain entry is if he is granted access by someone of the Royal Guard, which leaves it open for Isshin to have been in the Royal Guard and allow entry for Ichigo and whoever else. It's not that outrageous of a claim when you take into account what the captain's defeat could lead to.

[Intense]

Why can't that someone that will grant Ichigo access to the royal dimension let the surviving captains enter as well?

[Paragon]

If any of the Captains die for the sake of the plot it'd be Yama.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

Nothing to say they couldn't, but would depend on the Royal Gaurd's view. If it turned out to be Isshin letting Ichigo in then I guess they would see it differently due to them being family, but I have a feeling that regular captains wouldn't be allowed in because they are supposed to be promoted to get there.

[Aftershock]

If any of the Captains die for the sake of the plot it'd be Yama.
Agree with that ... And to the VL's ... Maybe Stark is one, but i don't think the other Espada's are one.

[pumpkin13]

If any of the Captains die for the sake of the plot it'd be Yama.

I hold no reservations; I am 99% sure that by the end of Bleach Yama will be dead, and Unohana will likely have filled his place.

[Lnrd]

Agreed Pumpkin and I no longer think Ulq is a VL. Lets just hope Kubo clarifies this next chapter though.

[pumpkin13]

What makes you think Ulquiorra is no longer a VL? the Batwings?

[fakeobsession]

I have the same question...cause I was reading the previous pages & saw that the conversation was a bit off topic but still didn't see any reason, to persuade me that he isn't VL.

[Lnrd]

@Pumpkin- I don't think he's a VL because Kubo hasn't yet shown he's a VL. We basicly don't even know if that was the first VL release. I just think that Kubo would have made a note of it by now, unless he does it next chapter.

Next chapter if Ulq goes yeah I'm a VL also, the suspense and hype for VLs would be dead. If Ulq was a VL, Kubo should have made Ulq say something like witness a VL release or the top 4 espada can't relase under the dome because VLs are just too damn powerful. Shit something. That why I say he isn't one.

And if he is one Kubo went about it all wrong.

[pumpkin13]

I think it's quite possible that Vichigo will buff up get a power boost and manage to come on a par with Ulquiorra who will then mirror what he did in unreleased form and say "gdgd, you're on form now. Now i can justify showing you the TRUE power of a VL!" and enter another released form or something. A possibility, not a likelihood.

He may not have explicitly said U's a VL but it has been pretty heavily hinted at, the "even if it's only at this level" comment proceeding to speedblitz ichi all over the shop, the dome rule, the silhouette etc.

[Soltir]

If Ulquiorra is an Adjucas, the a Vast Lord will be ridiculously strong, so I say he is a VL. And due to that rule plus the famous picture.

[fakeobsession]

Sorry,but what do we expect KT to say?
To make Ulqui say : hey,dude I am V.L...Fear me!
I thinks it's clear.First of all,he have seen Hitsu stating that Aizen wants to find 10 V.L to destroy SS.
Then Aizen, said to Gin I think that he wants to gather V.L together & complete Espada....
& at last the Rule for the first 4 Espadas...

[Soltir]

Sorry,but what do we expect KT to say?
To make Ulqui say : hey,dude I am V.L...Fear me!
I thinks it's clear.First of all,he have seen Hitsu stating that Aizen wants to find 10 V.L to destroy SS.
Then Aizen, said to Gin I think that he wants to gather V.L together & complete Espada....
& at last the Rule for the first 4 Espadas...

Maybe something "Kurosaki Ichigo, you should quit. Your power can be compared to that of an Adjucas right now. However, I am far more than that." It is not too retarded and impossible to happen.

[fakeobsession]

lol I don't think Ulquiorra would bother to say something like that...
He doesn't share information like that, & anyways he wants to kick his ehm...
Just now we see him kinda advising him how to fight, it's impossible to tell him to run away!

[smacharia8]

@Pumpkin- I don't think he's a VL because Kubo hasn't yet shown he's a VL. We basicly don't even know if that was the first VL release. I just think that Kubo would have made a note of it by now, unless he does it next chapter.

Next chapter if Ulq goes yeah I'm a VL also, the suspense and hype for VLs would be dead. If Ulq was a VL, Kubo should have made Ulq say something like witness a VL release or the top 4 espada can't relase under the dome because VLs are just too damn powerful. Shit something. That why I say he isn't one.

And if he is one Kubo went about it all wrong.lolwth he didn't tell us Yama and the other three are high-tiers but you don't doubt that now do you? :p

By decription a VL's capabilities are beyond that of a captain. We deduce that to mid-tier captains. We also know that VLs have humanoid forms and Ulquiorra has completely satisfied that requirement as the only thing different is the wings on his back. If you look at the espada's releases you'll see that each higher rank looked more humanoid than the one below. You can leave AA out because he was gillian to begin with. So we start with Szayel, who had the creepy tentacles and x-shape wing-like thingies, then you have pumpkinman. From then on you have the more advanced adjucha ie Grimmjow who was like a human with claws and a tail, preceded by Noitora who got more arms. Now you have Ulquiorra who has an entirely human body equipped with bat wings, and enough strength to everpower VB Ichigo with ease.

Bottom line is we already have the halos of Yammi and Ulquiorra respectively and we've also seen the kind of power Ulquiorra possesses. Ichigo is mid-tier level w/o the mask and with it he's strong enough to nullify Ulquiorra's cero by holding his sword up and even crack Ulquiorra's sword with a swing. Yet he is easily overpowered by batman Ulquiorra. You don't need a big shiny sign saying he's a VL when all this info is right in your face.

Also my vote is now final on this thread; Ulq's definitely a VL.

[plotkaislayer]

I'm with Pumpkin on Yama's death. In fact, I bet pretty much all the people in FKT die or get taken out of action permanently. That makes the remaining captains in HM those who go into the King's dimension along with the Nakama, Urahara's crew, and the Vizards. Yama will die, and it is Aizen who'll kill him.

As for Ulq's VL status, we have nothing but circumstantial evidence, still. Rules, schmules. People who WANT Ulq. to be a VL BELIEVE he is. Those who don't, don't. I'm more just interested to see if anyone changed their minds :D

EDIT: v-------- Yes, we will, Lnrd!

[Lnrd]

Well we see next chapter smacharia.

[Matt]

lolwth he didn't tell us Yama and the other three are high-tiers but you don't doubt that now do you? :p

By decription a VL's capabilities are beyond that of a captain. We deduce that to mid-tier captains. We also know that VLs have humanoid forms and Ulquiorra has completely satisfied that requirement as the only thing different is the wings on his back. If you look at the espada's releases you'll see that each higher rank looked more humanoid than the one below. You can leave AA out because he was gillian to begin with. So we start with Szayel, who had the creepy tentacles and x-shape wing-like thingies, then you have pumpkinman. From then on you have the more advanced adjucha ie Grimmjow who was like a human with claws and a tail, preceded by Noitora who got more arms. Now you have Ulquiorra who has an entirely human body equipped with bat wings, and enough strength to everpower VB Ichigo with ease.

Bottom line is we already have the halos of Yammi and Ulquiorra respectively and we've also seen the kind of power Ulquiorra possesses. Ichigo is mid-tier level w/o the mask and with it he's strong enough to nullify Ulquiorra's cero by holding his sword up and even crack Ulquiorra's sword with a swing. Yet he is easily overpowered by batman Ulquiorra. You don't need a big shiny sign saying he's a VL when all this info is right in your face.

Also my vote is now final on this thread; Ulq's definitely a VL.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/321/002/

Fraccion...Looks very humanoid, only has those ringy things.

My opinion, he looks a lot more humanoid than Ulquorria, so that throws your theory away about the way he looks.

It does look like as the ranks go up, they look more and more humanoid, but it still does not prove ulquorria to be a VL, not 1 bit.

And yes we do need a big shiny sign, because until Kubo actually says Ulquorria is a Vasto Lorde, he can at most be assumed to be a vasto lorde, nothing more.

[Lnrd]

^Agreed. Forgot all about Coolhorn's release and those rings just look like his outfit and not apart of his body.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

I think we won't find out if Ulquiorra is a VL untill they do some sort of back story, like they've done with other main Espada like Grimmjow and Nnoitra. It will probably show how he became a VL (if he is one) and when he was recruited by Aizen. I wouldn't be surprised if they also showed some back story of Halibel, Barragan and Stark at the same time. Maybe they were all hanging out together when Aizen found them.

[NoxieDC]

Why don't people think Ulquiorra is a Wasto Lord? Seriously, it was pretty much hinted all the time to the point it's now right in your face! Just use some glasses.
First silhouette of a Vasto Lorde: was almost exactly HIS outline (if someone can find the actual page, kudos and rep).
Plus, here's a more indirect approach. What did Grimmjow's release do, considering it's immediate effect? Not much. His scream was more then Ichigo thought it would be seen from raw spirit pressure, that's about it. Next, Nnotra's reiatsu had impressed Kenpachi. That is saying something, considering that man. But again, from just his spirit pressure, it didn't do much to his surroundings.
Now you have El Cuarto Espada! At the moment of his release, his power is shown as dense black rain. He even said it himself, his reiatsu has a high risk of compromising the dome. You have such a high jump in pure power, it's impossible for him to be in the Adjucha class. It's like trying to compare Shikai to Bankai.

Sorry to get so serious over stuff like this, but I'm trying to understand. Do some people really don't believe this or is it out of simple dislike?

P.S.: either way, my man is bringing a whole different category of ass-kicking to the table! ;)

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

There are two main arguements I've seen against Ulquiorra being VL. The first being that as of yet it still has not been officially stated, no matter how much it's been hinted that he may be one. The second is that alot of people don't want to believe he is because they would rather see VL come into the series later due to them being talked up so much in terms of power, and don't feel Ulquiorra is powerful enough to be classed as a VL. The second arguement has died down a fair bit after the fight between him and Ichigo has resumed, as we are beginning to see that Ulquiorra is a powerhouse at the least. Also new evidence such as the statement of how espada 4 and above are forbidden to release inside the dome is changing some people's minds on the matter. I personally believe he's a VL, but no amount of speculation can convince everyone untill it is officially stated that Ulquiorra, along with Halibel, Barragan and Stark are VL. At that point I predict many will rejoice, and many will bitch lol

[fakeobsession]

There are two main arguements I've seen against Ulquiorra being VL. The first being that as of yet it still has not been officially stated, no matter how much it's been hinted that he may be one. The second is that alot of people don't want to believe he is because they would rather see VL come into the series later due to them being talked up so much in terms of power, and don't feel Ulquiorra is powerful enough to be classed as a VL. The second arguement has died down a fair bit after the fight between him and Ichigo has resumed, as we are beginning to see that Ulquiorra is a powerhouse at the least. Also new evidence such as the statement of how espada 4 and above are forbidden to release inside the dome is changing some people's minds on the matter. I personally believe he's a VL, but no amount of speculation can convince everyone untill it is officially stated that Ulquiorra, along with Halibel, Barragan and Stark are VL. At that point I predict many will rejoice, and many will bitch lol

what you just said definitely sums up what it's going on here.There will not be clear answers to thread and to continue to say again & again the same arguments. There are already some off-topic discussions. Anyways, I agree that Ulquiorra is V.L & don't see a new arc about them happening ofc.But still,for them who wanna believe that he is just an arrancar there's no way to change their mind

[manymanymomok]

Whilst I'm a fan of Ulquiorra, I don't think I'm totally biased in my opinion that he is a VL. As UlquiorraKuchiki mentioned, so far there are no really substatial arguments that he isn't a VL. Even if I wasn't a fan of Ulquiorra, it'd take way more than that to convince me he isn't a VL.

It's so obvious that Ulq is really in a class of his own after his release. It simply shows the crazy gap in power when he uses resurrecion. Isn't that hint of how powerful he really was before arrancarization? Clearly he has to be at a level of VL.

On a side note, its going to be really exciting and interesting for the next few chapters as they develop and showcase Ulquiorra's skills considering he doesn't hold a zanpaktou in his released form. Perhaps the black rain might have something to do with his battle powers.

[NaClO]

I just keep coming back to the thought that if the top four espada are VLs then why would they be taking orders from Aizen? I know that Aizen is supper strong, but if a VL is as powerful as they are rumored to be then four VLs together should be able to defeat Aizen. And if not then it leaves the question how insanely strong is Aizen?

[fakeobsession]

I just keep coming back to the thought that if the top four espada are VLs then why would they be taking orders from Aizen? I know that Aizen is supper strong, but if a VL is as powerful as they are rumored to be then four VLs together should be able to defeat Aizen. And if not then it leaves the question how insanely strong is Aizen?

Aizen is probably as you said 'insanely' strong.I believe that he made them so strong, so they owe him.Maybe he has some way to take it back or destroy them.
He is like God to them...their creator.

[Shunsui Kyoraku]

Undoubtedly , Aizen is on a whole different level - I don't see why the vasto's should be stronger then him when - like he said - reached the full potential of a deathgod.

Besides , we don't know a lot about the vasto's , so judging their strengths with aizen's isn't really effective.

[fakeobsession]

I agree with you,Shunsui Kyoraku...
btw,so many off-topic questions here,shouldn't we start some new threads?

[Shunsui Kyoraku]

Thankies!!:D

True, but this thread is pretty interesting , this forum rules!!

[Paragon]

Aizen hasn't necessarily reached his maximum as a Shinigami(based on what we have seen up till now), him messing up the chantless level 90 kidou against Sajin would suggest that to be the case, but even still i think it'd be fair to assume that he is very close to that maximum, if not there by now and if he did or has obtained Vizard powers then his level would be simply unimaginable as things currently stand.

[Shunsui Kyoraku]

Aizen hasn't necessarily reached his maximum as a Shinigami(based on what we have seen up till now), him messing up the chantless level 90 kidou against Sajin would suggest that to be the case, but even still i think it'd be fair to assume that he is very close to that maximum, if not there by now and if he did or has obtained Vizard powers then his level would be simply unimaginable as things currently stand.

Well , seeing as he , himself , stated it - then it is probably for the best to assume that he did.

And yeah , but i was talking about the deathgod powers only - i have no doubt that in some way - he evolved further or gained powers differentiating from others.

The question is , what kind of powers ?

[Stri]

Well , seeing as he , himself , stated it - then it is probably for the best to assume that he did.


On the contrary, Aizen never stated he had reached "the limit" nor "his limit" in shinigami ability. He only went into explanation on this particular limit and how to surpass that limit. He never once said that he himself, was at that limit quite yet.

There's a possibility that he may just be trying to take a shorter route to more power.

[Shunsui Kyoraku]

On the contrary, Aizen never stated he had reached "the limit" nor "his limit" in shinigami ability. He only went into explanation on this particular limit and how to surpass that limit. He never once said that he himself, was at that limit quite yet.

There's a possibility that he may just be trying to take a shorter route to more power.

Oh my mistake on that one!

EDIT: Although i'm pretty sure he said that in the anime - around episode 60.

[NoxieDC]

IIRC, Aizen said that in order to awaken/use the Hogyouku (or whatever it's called), one would need around 5 times the spirit power of an average captain. That's just the minimum. Considering how vague everything we know is and that he's been making Arracncar for so long, I doubt he hasn't tried to reach his inner hollow powers. So yeah... >_>

[smacharia8]

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/321/002/

Fraccion...Looks very humanoid, only has those ringy things.

My opinion, he looks a lot more humanoid than Ulquorria, so that throws your theory away about the way he looks.

It does look like as the ranks go up, they look more and more humanoid, but it still does not prove ulquorria to be a VL, not 1 bit.

And yes we do need a big shiny sign, because until Kubo actually says Ulquorria is a Vasto Lorde, he can at most be assumed to be a vasto lorde, nothing more.That kinda negates the physical description but there's still the issue of the strength presented. IMO Cool-horne can be considered an exception to the rule, or you can reinterpret the decription given by Hitsugaya as "on average [insert menos level] look like this..."

What we get from ch197 is that Adjuchas are much smaller than Gillians, and Vasto Lordes are approx the same size as humans. We can cross-reference that with ch284 where we get to see Grimmjow's original form, as well as those of his fracion. As expected Nakim is the only oversized one of the group and that's because he's gillian, whereas everyone else is "much smaller" in comparison. So far there has not been a genuine panel of an authentic non-arancarized Vasto Lorde, but I'd put my money on them bearing more of a human figure than any (or most) of the other menos levels, and also using an actual weapon to fight. I include the "most" in there because of Noitora, who was ranked right below Ulquiorra and used a hand-held weapon as well.

So TBH the only reason one would conclude Ulquiorra isn't a VL is personal intuition - or stubborness :p - because skepticism about his arancarized release is like saying the hightiers aren't strong because their haori's aren't different from other captains, with the exception of Shunsui.



@Noxie: The translations ranged from "twice" to "more than" so I don't see where you got the additional 5x from.

[manymanymomok]

So TBH the only reason one would conclude Ulquiorra isn't a VL is personal intuition - or stubborness :p - because skepticism about his arancarized release is like saying the hightiers aren't strong because their haori's aren't different from other captains, with the exception of Shunsui.i just had to do this... QFT! =)

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

On the arguement about why VL's should follow Aizen, even if the VL's are stronger than Aizen, that doesn't mean they still wouldn't follow him. Aizen first of all was offering the chance to live a life without the worry of regression and a gain of even more power and control of their lives. He is also a very intelligent person and I would imagine they share common goals of sorts so they would respect him for that. As said by an arrancar of whom I can't remember his name, the arrancar follow Aizen because he fears nothing, and that is something that is highly admirable to beings born from fear.

[smacharia8]

^ Here you go: http://www.readbleach.com/?ch=244


* goes to bed *

[Paragon]

Awesome, guess that explains why the Vasto Lordes would follow Aizen and in it actually makes sense considering that the hollows before being arrancarnised would be in constant fear of losing their form or even being being consumed by another.

I totally forgot about that chapter. :)

[pumpkin13]

On the arguement about why VL's should follow Aizen, even if the VL's are stronger than Aizen, that doesn't mean they still wouldn't follow him. Aizen first of all was offering the chance to live a life without the worry of regression and a gain of even more power and control of their lives. He is also a very intelligent person and I would imagine they share common goals of sorts so they would respect him for that. As said by an arrancar of whom I can't remember his name, the arrancar follow Aizen because he fears nothing, and that is something that is highly admirable to beings born from fear.

They way I see it is Aizen doesn't fear anything. And Arrancar thrive on fear, they live for it (broad use of the term "live" I know), so someone who doesn't fear anything is essentially their boogeyman, hence why they follow him, regardless of strength.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

Exactly my point, so there's always the chance that the top 3 espada are every bit as powerful as Aizen. I highly doubt it, but it's still possible.

[fakeobsession]

I don't think they fear him, it's more like respect for some reason.
Otherwise I agree with your opinion.

[Takalo]

So far there has not been a genuine panel of an authentic non-arancarized Vasto Lorde, but I'd put my money on them bearing more of a human figure than any (or most) of the other menos levels, and also using an actual weapon to fight.http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-229-page-12.html

I know this doesn't exactly count as "genuine," but it's about as close as you get without a character saying specifically that they're a Vasto Lorde. Kubo has veiled Vasto Lordes in mystery and that particular Hollow is wrapped up... enigmatic. The last one that was wrapped up was huge and not very humanoid.

I'd say that from a literary perspective, we're going to find out about the Vasto Lordes very soon (most likely within the next 5-10 issues, considering the fights we have on our hands). They've been hyped up the whole time starting with Hitsugaya's explanation of the menos levels. We know they're powerful, but other than that, we don't know anything for sure. That makes them a very interesting topic and Kubo is slowly dropping hints as to what to expect. If they live up to the hype, we should be in for one hell of a read.

[smacharia8]

^ The key term in that quote is non-arancarized but yea I agree.

[mansher]

I believe they are VL as well. Aizen's main strategy in the beginning was to "divide enemy forces" since Hirako's time. I mean during the Turn Back Pendulum Arc, he made Soul Society lose 5 captains and 3 Lieutanents. In Rescue Rukia Arc he made them lost 3 captains. Now currently he made Soul Society lost half of its forces. His plans are crazy if you ask me. Toshiro stated that "10 Vasto Lorde Arrancars can destroy Soul Society" but he also said "Vasto Lorde population are small you can actually count them with your fingers" First things first, is there EVEN 10 Vasto Lorde in all of existent? I believe the top 4 are VL because Aizen is pretty confident his top 3 can defeat half of Soul Society that means that the top 3 are "above captain class" and that means they're VLs. Plus their release form seeing Ulquiorra looked pretty "humanoid" to me. "Completely human" doesn't mean its "humanoid" but just you had a human-like structure. Yup top 4 VLs alright. Oh plus Wonderweiss, when Aizen captured him, his true form looked "humanoid" as well.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

I don't think they fear him, it's more like respect for some reason.
Otherwise I agree with your opinion.

No they don't fear him, they respect him because he fears nothing. Hollows are born from fear, and all their lives they fear being eaten or regressing. It isn't untill Aizen came along and gave them the chance to be free from those fears that they too feared nothing.

[manymanymomok]

I was just wondering, as the progression of hollow levels go up, won't their fears evolve too?

Like say a more advanced being of intelligence such as the VL would have different sort of fears (possibly highly complex, akin to humans etc) from the ordinary hollow or even an adjuchas/gillian? I think that's how Aizen, being fearless, can achieve the respect and followership of all these powerful beings.

off topic: i was just randomly imagining the end of bleach - Aizen is barely defeated, weakened, is unable to attain his goals and reveals his true fear; in doing so the hollows attack him and eat him. what an end.

[Szarlej]

Like say a more advanced being of intelligence such as the VL would have different sort of fears (possibly highly complex, akin to humans etc) from the ordinary hollow or even an adjuchas/gillian? I think that's how Aizen, being fearless, can achieve the respect and followership of all these powerful beings.


I think that Top 3 Espada is stronger than Aizen. They follow him, because guy who fears nothing is automatically a god for them, regardless of his strenght. He could promised them releasing from their fear. He can also keep control by using Kyouka Suigetsu.

[manymanymomok]

I think that Top 3 Espada is stronger than Aizen. They follow him, because guy who fears nothing is automatically a god for them, regardless of his strenght. He could promised them releasing from their fear. He can also keep control by using Kyouka Suigetsu. if thats the case, that'd be really sick. Either way, I personally believe an arrancarized VL's strength is likely at least on par with or greater than shunsui/ukitake.. I make this deduction based on the following:

Ulquiorra easily cut pre-mask Ichigo's black GT in half. The power of black GT is likely around average captain level or maybe even higher (considering Ichigo has improved since the GJ fight)

I think that puts Ulquiorra pre-released higher than average captain level easily. I would personally believe this is at least on par or most likely greater than any average captain's bankai.

Current strength masked ichigo was overpowering and cut ulquiorra's sword: this is definitely at least on a higher captain level, or > average captain bankai.

Ulquiorra's release was pure ownage. (this is of course my own opinion you are free to debate on this) I believe his release is somewhat like a bankai, increases the power several times (bankai is 5-10 times easily from my memory). His release seems like a whole different power league from GJ's and nnoitra's release.

Considering that, and we have no idea how much stronger 1-3 is than Ulquiorra, I am highly inclined to believe they are all definitely AVLs and stronger than shunsui/ukitake's level.

[Szarlej]

Ulqiorra can be a high-tier Adjucas or low-tier Vasto Lorde (who barely reached that level of Menos evolution).

[Thordayo]

I think it's ironic that "Aizen fears nothing" and that he says to Shinji:

"Captain, you are really scary, you know that?"

I guess that was a long time ago. Also, some people were discussing why specifically the Espada follow him. Do you guys not remember when Ichigo & Co. first invade HM and Aizen calls a meeting/notifies everybody. Grimmjow tries to act of his own accord and go against Aizen's will/fight Ichigo right that second. How did Aizen make GJ listen. He made him stagger by releasing some Reiatsu.

Also in Nnoi's history, he mentions Aizen briefly as he's talking to Nel. He says something like, "If it wasn't for Aizen sama I would not have obtained this power." Most of the current Espada would not be ranked as they are if it wasn't for the Hogyouku. In addition to that, Aizen has the Reiatsu to produce Espada-ready Hollow such as Wonderwice.

If not fear, they definitely follow him because of The Hogyouku and its abilities - they all seek power in the end.

[justin43]

Ulqiorra can be a high-tier Adjucas or low-tier Vasto Lorde (who barely reached that level of Menos evolution).

Well, if Ulquiorra is an adjuncha, then SS is finished.

[pumpkin13]

@Thordayo: Your last line doesn't quite add up. The Hougoukyu is used to turn them into Arrancar, once they achieve this state, it appears that they cannot revert to their previous form (Pesche, Donde Chakka and Nell would be highly unusual exceptions, for which their must be, and hopefully will be revealed, some explanation). So once they reach the state of Arrancar, the Hougoukyu is useless to them. They've already got what they wanted, so if this was the only reason then why would they continue to follow Aizen and not all turn on him?

[Lnrd]

@Thordayo: Your last line doesn't quite add up. The Hougoukyu is used to turn them into Arrancar, once they achieve this state, it appears that they cannot revert to their previous form (Pesche, Donde Chakka and Nell would be highly unusual exceptions, for which their must be, and hopefully will be revealed, some explanation). So once they reach the state of Arrancar, the Hougoukyu is useless to them. They've already got what they wanted, so if this was the only reason then why would they continue to follow Aizen and not all turn on him?

Well maybe for arrancars made by the Orb, but imo Nnoitora seemed to get an upgrade from Aizen using the Orb on him. Because he did say he thanks Aizen for giving him more power, and I doubt Aizen personally trained him.

[pumpkin13]

Im not sure where you got that from. Noi is an adjuchas, then he gets hougoukyu'd and becomes and arrancar, then he progresses from 8th to 5th, his uniform changes and his weapon changes too, but it's implied through his own efforts not further use of the Hougoukyu.

[Aftershock]

when I'm right, then he got this from Anime in Flashback scence.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

Im not sure where you got that from. Noi is an adjuchas, then he gets hougoukyu'd and becomes and arrancar, then he progresses from 8th to 5th, his uniform changes and his weapon changes too, but it's implied through his own efforts not further use of the Hougoukyu.

Agreed. His initial change from Hollow to Arrancar was from the hogyoku, but then he further increased his own skills though personal efforts. The hogyoku only breaks down the barrier between Shinigami and Hollow, it does not act as a power booster once the barrier has been broken down.

[Lnrd]

@Aftershock- Yeah I did, the anime and manga. I said that Pumpkin because that was the time Nell was still an espada. Nnoitora said that it's been a long time since he has seen Neliel. A long time =/= 2 months (Length of Aizen having the Hougyoku). So in that flashback, that couldn't have been a Hougyokufied Nnoitora, but a Natural Arrancar Nnoitora.

That's why I came to the conclusion, since Aizen did something to make Nniotora stronger. He re-shinigamified him using the Hougyoku to make him a more complete arrancar. After that he trained himself.

[raging223]

As for now, we know nothing about the time in HM, the time might be progressing faster there, although I do not believe it. Regarding Noi being a natural arrancar, it might be possible, but I do not think there were that strong arrancar before Aizen came. Nell must have been an arrancar through the HY, because Dordonii had the 3rd seat before Aizen came.

[pumpkin13]

@Aftershock- Yeah I did, the anime and manga. I said that Pumpkin because that was the time Nell was still an espada. Nnoitora said that it's been a long time since he has seen Neliel. A long time =/= 2 months (Length of Aizen having the Hougyoku). So in that flashback, that couldn't have been a Hougyokufied Nnoitora, but a Natural Arrancar Nnoitora.

That's why I came to the conclusion, since Aizen did something to make Nniotora stronger. He re-shinigamified him using the Hougyoku to make him a more complete arrancar. After that he trained himself.

Good point, I concede.

[Lnrd]

As for now, we know nothing about the time in HM, the time might be progressing faster there, although I do not believe it. Regarding Noi being a natural arrancar, it might be possible, but I do not think there were that strong arrancar before Aizen came. Nell must have been an arrancar through the HY, because Dordonii had the 3rd seat before Aizen came.

Impossible. It was said that she was knocked out by Nnoitora a long time ago. Aizen just got the Hougyoku 2 months ago. Unless HM's time is that much faster than SS and Earth then it's impossible for her to be an a Hougyokified Arrancar.

Also, Dordonii's rank in the espada was never stated. I think your getting that from a fan theory that if you take off the 10 from a Privaron's rank it is their previous rank. And, that theory isn't true.

[a3m43th]

After this last chapter i am sure that 1-4 are all vasto lorde. Ulquiorra taking GT head on like that got me pretty convinced :))

[anthonee1230]

After this last chapter i am sure that 1-4 are all vasto lorde. Ulquiorra taking GT head on like that got me pretty convinced :))

As stated before, until explicitly stated in the anime that 1-4 are VL then it's all still speculation.

[pumpkin13]

anime is less canon than the manga. You mean until explicitly stated in the manga.

[fakeobsession]

As stated before, until explicitly stated in the anime that 1-4 are VL then it's all still speculation.

& as I said before we won't have some clear evidence like Ulquiorra saying that he is VL.
No way.But they differ from Arrancars.If you noticed Ulqui created his Cero very quickly.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-359-page-17.html
But it has been stated that Cero is taking more time...
It's obvious that his level is great.Equal to VL