Official Vasto Lorde Thread [Archive]

Intense

08-10-2008, 11:52 AM

This topic is the reason half of the threads on the Bleach section end up off-topic so it was past time it had a thread of its own.

Anything regarding Vastos, from examining Hits' statement to opinions/theories on how they'll possibly do in the fighting yet to come, might go here.

Lnrd

08-10-2008, 12:35 PM

I'll start it then. VLs were never stated as being stronger than the average captain.

Lucky

08-10-2008, 12:35 PM

Well, hopefully we'll get to see which (if any) of the Espada are actual Vasto Lordes soon. I still think it's the top 4, but we shall see...

justin43

08-10-2008, 01:03 PM

I'm sure that Hitsugaya said that VLs has greater ability than even an average (not high-tier) captain. I will check the manga to be sure. Anyway, I believe the top 4 are VLs. What tier is probably unknown? However, I believe Ulquiorra is low-tier, the next 2 are mid-tier, and the top espada is probably high-tier VL. The main reason I believe Ulquiorra is a VL espada is that the power difference between Grimmjow, who is close to Noitora in reiatsu, and Ulquiorra is very high based off their little skirimish. In their skirimish, Ulquiorra badly burn Grimmjow's arm with a finger-tipped cero when Grimmjow tried to counter with his palm cero.

Lnrd

08-10-2008, 01:17 PM

I'm sure that Hitsugaya said that VLs has greater ability than even an average (not high-tier) captain. I will check the manga to be sure. Anyway, I believe the top 4 are VLs. What tier is probably unknown? However, I believe Ulquiorra is low-tier, the next 2 are mid-tier, and the top espada is probably high-tier VL. The main reason I believe Ulquiorra is a VL espada is that the power difference between Grimmjow, who is close to Noitora in reiatsu, and Ulquiorra is very high based off their little skirimish. In their skirimish, Ulquiorra badly burn Grimmjow's arm with a finger-tipped cero when Grimmjow tried to counter with his palm cero.

I know the one your talking about; it was from some unknown scanlator. Maximum 7, Ju-Ni, and Binktopia's version say "surpass that of a captain". Then the anime translation backs these groups version up by saying " A VL's battle capabilities surpasses that of a captain's".

bigcarm

08-10-2008, 01:24 PM

let's not confuse "battle capabilities" and "power levels." those are two different animals.

besides, people can (and do) make the idea of "power levels" refer to whatever they want, so that idea is meaningless. the idea of "battle capabilities" is more objective, as it refers, specifically, to observable things that a character can use in order to wage battle.

so which translation is it then? does a vl's battle capabilities exceed those of a captain? or what?

Matt

08-10-2008, 01:26 PM

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/16/

says their stronger

maybe their are exceptions

but Arrancar that have the power of a Vasto Lorde Menos and a Shinigami would obviously be stronger than any captain

so most likely none of the espada are Vasto Lordes

Intense

08-10-2008, 01:30 PM

There's only info/stories about Vastos 'cause someone (likely a captain) faced and survived against one in the past, so I'd throw away the assumption that Vastos are stronger than any captain.

Wonderwice#1

08-10-2008, 01:32 PM

Going by the description of hits VL, it's pretty obv wonderwice has to be one, he was very small and humanoid like

Lnrd

08-10-2008, 01:33 PM

let's not confuse "battle capabilities" and "power levels." those are two different animals.

besides, people can (and do) make the idea of "power levels" refer to whatever they want, so that idea is meaningless. the idea of "battle capabilities" is more objective, as it refers, specifically, to observable things that a character can use in order to wage battle.

so which translation is it then? does a vl's battle capabilities exceed those of a captain? or what?

that's the anime. The other scanlators say the power.

Meta

08-12-2008, 01:39 PM

As far as #7 saying that he is the fastest, Stark seems a lot faster when he appeared out of nowhere, grabbed Orihime, and disappeared back to Las Noches before Ichigo and Kenpachi could touch him.

This is discussed to death
Like Noitra said that he's the strongest Espada,same did the French-Mohawk guy.
Those were some big bullshits

asura21

08-12-2008, 01:44 PM

hey ,we are forgetting about wonderweiss margera as well ,don't u think he is vasto as well , so that makes 5 of them ,now if we consider the numbers 10 captains ,urahara ,yoruichi ,tessai and 8 vaizards for a relatively few opponents,and as all good things have been going on for the shinigami :espadas losing streak and we might see the fraccion losing streak as well, so there has to be something big and powerful (more vasto/vasto arrancars)with aizen.....to overpower all of the them.....Even if then aizen has to deal with the royal guard -full of captain lvl people,or even higher, so he should be requiring vasto arrancars during the winter war, and this current squad might be just an experiment for the upcoming one.

djray

08-12-2008, 01:57 PM

zomari never said he was the strongest espada he said he has the fastest sonido http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-299-page-13.html i dont think zomari was completely bullshitting i think sonido/shunpo can be a category of techniques used like gemelos sonido or yoruichis trick or you can have just have a sonido or shunpo for long distance like when yama when from sokyoku hill to fight ukitat and shunsui or when stark disappeared...so in conclusion zomari is just probably more skilled in sonido techniques

Alva

08-12-2008, 04:09 PM

I don't think any of the Espada are Vaste Lords. I reckon they'll all be wiped out in this skirmish, and Aizen will just come back with new Espada for the Winter War.

unlikely.

Stark will survive D: !
He seems too cool to be killed off. and It seems like good/bad guy. Like Grimmjow.
[btw. I think the Vizards are gunna take Aizen's side]

Yokokorama

08-12-2008, 04:22 PM

Grimmjow was just rebellious though, but yeah, I can see him as an anti-hero I guess. Stalk seems a LOT like Shunsui.

Paragon

08-12-2008, 04:41 PM

Grimmjow was just rebellious though, but yeah, I can see him as an anti-hero I guess. Stalk seems a LOT like Shunsui.

A Stark versus Shunsui fight would be so cliche, just like Yama versus Bargan, i hope those match ups don't happen, but its almost inevitable.

Yokokorama

08-12-2008, 04:45 PM

Considering that Yumichika got paired up with Coolhorn, I wouldn't be surprised to see more "personality matchups".

Paragon

08-12-2008, 04:56 PM

Considering that Yumichika got paired up with Coolhorn, I wouldn't be surprised to see more "personality matchups".

Yeah that'll most likely be the case. I'm hoping Yama will just take on Aizen and Bargan to Shunsui or something, but i guess thats wishful thinking. :suspicious:

Anyway thread back on topic, i won't be surprised if Ulquiorra is not a vasto lorde. Think i stated before that most likely it'll be Bargan, Halibel and Stark and this will serve as a taster for a future arc which may be an arc in which Aizen finally obtains ten vasto lordes to match Soul Society.

UlquiorraKuchiki

08-12-2008, 11:24 PM

Yeah that'll most likely be the case. I'm hoping Yama will just take on Aizen and Bargan to Shunsui or something, but i guess thats wishful thinking. :suspicious:

Anyway thread back on topic, i won't be surprised if Ulquiorra is not a vasto lorde. Think i stated before that most likely it'll be Bargan, Halibel and Stark and this will serve as a taster for a future arc which may be an arc in which Aizen finally obtains ten vasto lordes to match Soul Society.

Just remember that the main reason anyone even thinks that there are VL's in the espada ranks is because it all started from the silouette of the VL that looks like it would be Ulquiorra. Think about it, Aizen left Ulquiorra in charge of las noches while he took the top 3 espada with him. It just doesn't make sense that he would leave an adjuchas level arrancar to defend against the entire group of people who invaded the place. We've seen evidence that Aizen was already searching for VL long before we even knew he was a bad guy, so it would be safe to assume he found some in that time and recruited them into the espada ranks.

manymanymomok

08-12-2008, 11:50 PM

Just remember that the main reason anyone even thinks that there are VL's in the espada ranks is because it all started from the silouette of the VL that looks like it would be Ulquiorra. Think about it, Aizen left Ulquiorra in charge of las noches while he took the top 3 espada with him. It just doesn't make sense that he would leave an adjuchas level arrancar to defend against the entire group of people who invaded the place. Absolutely agree. Foreshadowing is very common in japanese manga, and especially in bleach where it happened a few times already. (one obvious example is where Ichigo's mask is clearly seen in his fight with Zaraki. the hollow side is later introduced - natural drawn conclusion is that he drew from his hollow powers as well as shinigami powers to defeat zaraki, a hint of how strong a hollow-shinigami combined can be)
I would think its not unbelievable to think KT was at least already designing (or even done with the design of) Ulquiorra's character when he drew the VL silhoutte.

Paragon

08-13-2008, 04:12 AM

Just remember that the main reason anyone even thinks that there are VL's in the espada ranks is because it all started from the silouette of the VL that looks like it would be Ulquiorra. Think about it, Aizen left Ulquiorra in charge of las noches while he took the top 3 espada with him. It just doesn't make sense that he would leave an adjuchas level arrancar to defend against the entire group of people who invaded the place. We've seen evidence that Aizen was already searching for VL long before we even knew he was a bad guy, so it would be safe to assume he found some in that time and recruited them into the espada ranks.

You have some good points and you may be right, i had forgotten about that drawing. Guess we'll just have to wait patiently and see.

gamca

08-13-2008, 04:41 AM

I think that it is possible that the top 4 espadas are from VL. One thng is the gab between Ulquoirra and GJ. And the fact that he looks quite alike the VL witch was shown in the manga...
His mask, hole in the chest and his body silhouette

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/16/

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/19/

jzuidema

08-13-2008, 04:54 AM

about 1 vl being stronger then a captain: I dont think so. Noitora got beaten by kenpachi, which we hopefully can agree on isnt the strongest captain by far. And in the fight, I believe between noi and nel, we see a flashback of noi hunting for vl's, if im correct, which implies hes stronger then an unarrancarized vl.

So my guess is a vl would only be a handfull for (below) midtier captains, while a arrancar vl maybe what hits meant when he explained the menos ranks...

and also think about this: if none of the current espada is vl, we have 2 options:

1 the toptier captains are gonna wipe them out. Now that would be quit boring since the current espada is introduced as very strong. It would be shitty if they were defeated quite easily, and aizen would have to use another trumpcard/plotkai (copyright ichigo).

2 the toptier capts are gonna have a hard time fighting them and will, presumably, just be able to defeat them. If that happens, sooner or later aizen is gonna bring in real vl arr. But who will fight them then, if even the toptiercapt's are barely able to defeat adjuchas arr?? All mid and low tier captains would have no longer a role in fighting against aizens minions, maybe only fraccion, and i dont wanna see captains struggling against fraccion!!!

so I hope this 'proves' a bit espada 1-3 or some have to be vl already. Left out of this picture are offcourse the vizards and royal guard and isshin etc etc, but the fact remains that if (1) is true, the VL turn out to be shitty, and if (2) is true, most of the captains will be rendered shitty. That is off course, like stated, if the current espada aren't vl.

and since we almost know for sure noitora was an adjuchas, or at least grimmjow...they gave the captains and ichigo a nice but not easy fight. It would make perfect sense for an adjuchas arr to be around the level of a high midtier captain like kenpachi, while vl arr are way above it, next to the toptier captains...still wondering how ichigo, who got totally trashed by a barehanded ulqiorra in 1 fight, is now supposed to be an even match, but hell, thats another topic. ciao

Lnrd

08-13-2008, 06:32 AM

about 1 vl being stronger then a captain: I dont think so. Noitora got beaten by kenpachi, which we hopefully can agree on isnt the strongest captain by far. And in the fight, I believe between noi and nel, we see a flashback of noi hunting for vl's, if im correct, which implies hes stronger then an unarrancarized vl.

Searching and Hunting are two different things. Quote from Nell, " Aizen-sama told us to seek out the VLs." So basicly Nell and Nnoitora were on a scouting mission.

jzuidema

08-13-2008, 06:59 AM

Searching and Hunting are two different things. Quote from Nell, " Aizen-sama told us to seek out the VLs." So basicly Nell and Nnoitora were on a scouting mission.

yup, but correct me if im mistaken, but I remember noi saying something like, if they dont cooperate, hell kill them or some, so my point still stands, unless off course, my memories are a bit off....

Houzukimaru

08-13-2008, 07:02 AM

yup, but correct me if im mistaken, but I remember noi saying something like, if they dont cooperate, hell kill them or some, so my point still stands, unless off course, my memories are a bit off....

no, he killed all the weak hollows that were in the area but he never said anything about fighting the VL

manymanymomok

08-13-2008, 09:57 AM

Jzuidema: you're mistaken. Nel rebuked him for killing the hollows, as their job was to search for VL. He retorted that if those hollows could be killed by him so easily it meant that they were to weak to be VL.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/312/13/

Alva

08-13-2008, 03:16 PM

I think theres more Vasto-Lorde..hidden.

Aizen has a trick hidden up his sleeve. I think Yamamoto is gunna die. And Ukitake is gunna take over.

huey06

08-13-2008, 03:31 PM

i dunno if ukitake can take over...seeing as how he is really sick and all. but if yamma were to die i think there would be a lot of other people that would want to take on killing aizen before ichigo...ukitake and Kyouraku would be my guess of who would take dibs on killing him.

something big will happen soon but i really dont know what. i mean ichigo is the main character and aizen is the antagonist but they really dont have that much of a history with each other ya know what i mean? so i dont know why they would be having the final throw down.

but something with the VL has to happen soon...i dont think aizen would go into this fight without having more VL in his espada then what he does.

Lnrd

08-13-2008, 03:56 PM

i dunno if ukitake can take over...seeing as how he is really sick and all. but if yamma were to die i think there would be a lot of other people that would want to take on killing aizen before ichigo...ukitake and Kyouraku would be my guess of who would take dibs on killing him.

I think he was taking about the Sotaicho position.

huey06

08-13-2008, 04:16 PM

yea...i meant for those to be two separate points...my bad i dont think that ukitake would take over as general commander cause he is sick...then read the rest of that as another point lol

sorry about the confusion :)

divine saint of aries

09-09-2008, 04:05 PM

are any of the espada vasto lordes?

4-1 might be but i doubt it

Stri

09-09-2008, 05:18 PM

are any of the espada vasto lordes?

4-1 might be but i doubt it

They may be, but they may not be. But, Seriously. If the top 4 aren't VL's, then there is definitely something wrong the powerlevels in bleach. If that is the case. SS+Vizards, stand no chance.

divine saint of aries

09-09-2008, 05:53 PM

They may be, but they may not be. But, Seriously. If the top 4 aren't VL's, then there is definitely something wrong the powerlevels in bleach. If that is the case. SS+Vizards, stand no chance.

IMO none are vasto lordes

but i think the captains can finish off the remaining espada and help the vizards defeat the vasto lordes who ever they might be

Wras

09-09-2008, 06:00 PM

I really hope the Espada we have yet to see fight aren't just throwaway adjuchas. I think 4-1 being VL's is very plausible and really if they weren't, having Stark/Halibel/Barragan killed off just to introduce a new crew of VL's would be kind of lame considering all the 'development' they've gotten.

I also agree it's very possible Wonderwyce is a VL, and a lot of people make a lot of good points but really until it's confirmed, an aimed shot in the dark is still a shot in the dark =P.
Having said that, I personally support 1-4 being VLs and there being perhaps a VL or two hiding around in an already introduced character; doesn't even have to be someone hanging around Hueco Mundo. Maybe a formerly minor character will show up and Aizen will say: 'Oh by the way, this character... is a Vasto Lorde.' <surprised faces!>. I mean we've been blindsided before, and it was awesome, so who knows?

divine saint of aries

09-09-2008, 06:18 PM

I really hope the Espada we have yet to see fight aren't just throwaway adjuchas. I think 4-1 being VL's is very plausible and really if they weren't, having Stark/Halibel/Barragan killed off just to introduce a new crew of VL's would be kind of lame considering all the 'development' they've gotten.

I also agree it's very possible Wonderwyce is a VL, and a lot of people make a lot of good points but really until it's confirmed, an aimed shot in the dark is still a shot in the dark =P.
Having said that, I personally support 1-4 being VLs and there being perhaps a VL or two hiding around in an already introduced character; doesn't even have to be someone hanging around Hueco Mundo. Maybe a formerly minor character will show up and Aizen will say: 'Oh by the way, this character... is a Vasto Lorde.' <surprised faces!>. I mean we've been blindsided before, and it was awesome, so who knows?

lets say espada 4-1 are vasto lordes

do you believe they will be on the top 5 for the vasto lordes? or will they be the lower number vasto lordes?

Wras

09-09-2008, 06:29 PM

lets say espada 4-1 are vasto lordes

do you believe they will be on the top 5 for the vasto lordes? or will they be the lower number vasto lordes?

I think it would be cool if one of the characters we've already been introduced to is one of the top tier VLs, but since the top 3 Espada were said (I think? Correct me if I'm wrong anyone) to be all around the same in terms of power level I can't be sure. To really answer the question, I think no, but hope yes, just because we've seen so little of S/H/B and even Ulq is mired in mystery, it would be a shame to let all of the suspense go to waste when Aizen pulls out ANOTHER set of VLs.

Another thing to consider is, Toshiro said if Aizen acquired 10 VLs it would be the end of the SS, but has he (Aizen) made any mention of obtaining exactly that many? He's confident, so it could be a lot less, aside from Toshiro's foreboding statement we have no reason to believe he'll have 10. Again, if I'm wrong, I didn't read the manga yesterday so my memory is susceptible fault- so anyone correct me.

metalsoup111

09-09-2008, 06:55 PM

The lowest level Espada Aizen personally works with is #4. That is why the lower 6 didn't matter to him; they weren't worth his time. I think the top 4 are quite possibly VL. I'd say only 1 or 2 are upper-tier VL's, if any, though.

divine saint of aries

09-09-2008, 07:03 PM

it would be a shame to let the four remaining espada die

and

for aizen to acquire a group of new vasto lordes

manymanymomok

09-09-2008, 07:28 PM

Whilst, 1-4 are likely VL, the entire Espada does not have to necessarily be VL.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-209-page-7.html

lelouche

09-09-2008, 07:45 PM

Eh the way i took it was that the espada "top10" were all VL's just at varying strength. From the description given about them being the most human like is why i think that. since so far the espada have been the closest arrancar to human resemblance and of course they start looking more and more human closer to number one.

Nemo

09-09-2008, 07:47 PM

I'd say that only the top 3 Espada are Vasto Lorde. Just a guess though.

Fatstogey

09-09-2008, 08:18 PM

Whilst, 1-4 are likely VL, the entire Espada does not have to necessarily be VL.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-209-page-7.html

I dont think Ulqiorra is a VL. I think hes close but i dont think he is one. I think that if he was Urahara would have said something to Ichigo about it. Cause i doubt Urahara is the type who would see a VL and not know it was a VL.

And to Lelouche lol, The espada all have human form because they are arrancar now. VL had a human form before they were arrancarized.

divine saint of aries

09-10-2008, 04:16 PM

I dont think Ulqiorra is a VL. I think hes close but i dont think he is one. I think that if he was Urahara would have said something to Ichigo about it. Cause i doubt Urahara is the type who would see a VL and not know it was a VL.

And to Lelouche lol, The espada all have human form because they are arrancar now. VL had a human form before they were arrancarized.

does urahara know what a vasto lorde is? i mean they are rare after all

i still think it would be cool if new vasto lordes were introduced-characters we have never seen before

Intense

09-10-2008, 04:18 PM

LOL

If Hitsugaya knows about Vastos what makes you think Urahara doesn't.

divine saint of aries

09-10-2008, 04:45 PM

all i am saying is that since no vasto lordes have been shown my best guess would be that nobody knows what they really look like (human of course but you know what i mean) and how powerful they really are

Instinct

09-10-2008, 05:12 PM

We don't know what Vasto Lordes look like, specifically, to what degree of human-likeness. I think it's too early to assume the top remaining Espadas are or are not Vasto Lorde's. I personally think the Primero Espada is, whomever it may be.

divine saint of aries

09-10-2008, 05:14 PM

We don't know what Vasto Lordes look like, specifically, to what degree of human-likeness. I think it's too early to assume the top remaining Espadas are or are not Vasto Lorde's. I personally think the Primero Espada is, whomever it may be.

i still think IMO that none of the espada are vasto lordes

still though that would ruin the story a little since they would have to bring out new characters for the vastos unless the captains take care of the remaining espada and the vizard deal with the new vasto lordes

lelouche

09-10-2008, 08:12 PM

It just seemed to me that the top 10 were VL since the series says 10 VL would destroy SS. Well Aizen goes to hueco Mundo guess what he used the thing he stole ( cant spell it) Made 10 hasty VL's :D. Thats just what i thought Made sense to me anyway :[

Instinct

09-10-2008, 08:18 PM

Even if they were hasty, I think 10 Vasto Lordes can wipe out a good amount of SS, if not all as Hitsugaya says. And, all the battling was probably expected, and it might just be a test of SS's top Shinigami, to see how many Vasto Lorde Arrancar's he'd want to make. If, and it probably will, get there.

divine saint of aries

09-10-2008, 08:34 PM

toshiros explanation of the vasto lordes makes sense but then again it does not

he says vasto lordes are stronger than the captains but has he seen everything the captains have? there bankais? there shikais? there full power?

also if aizen does get 10 vasto lordes they will not only have to battle the captains but the lieutenants and the rest of the shinagami but its not like they will make a difference anyways

manymanymomok

09-10-2008, 09:23 PM

A thread I started. I think its highly related to the VL discussion right now.

http://forums.bleachexile.com/showthread.php?t=30022

So far (at least from what I've seen) I don't think there really is a clear supporting case for the top 3 NOT being arrancar VL. Even Ulquiorra number 4 too.

Aizen created the Espada as an 'ongoing pursuit' for 10 VL. He mentions 'perfecting the Espada' in one of the manga chapters to Gin; the one where Tousen cuts off GJ's arm. That was an obvious hint that he was still seeking more VLs.

Soon after that, we are introduced to the Espada (all of them sitting at the table). I highly doubt he actually perfected the Espada so quickly. They can't pssibly be VL since arrancar + VL = extremely powerful. Not the type of BS that was owned by the captains that entered HM.

UltimateX

09-10-2008, 11:37 PM

I don't know if someone has already said this or not, but here's my 2 cents.

None of the current Espada are VL, except for maybe Stark, since he has the least amount of mask; infact, I can't remember him having one. A VL is supposed to be human like in form, with the exception of the mask of course. So, I am going to guess they look more like Vizards, minus the Zanpakto and human skin, and with the addition of a Hollow hole.

"yeah, but all the Espada look like humans!" Of course they do. That is what it means to be an arrancar. As far as we know though all the Espada, except Aarronario were Adjuchas. (Aarronario was the only Gillian among them.) Think about it, Grimmjaw was a panther formed Adjucha, number 5 (I forget his name) was a insectoid Adjucha as well, Nel was a Centaur/ram (Arrancar's released form is still rather humanoid compared to their original Hollow form, so we don't know if Nel was centaurian or more beast like, not unlike Grimmjaw's Hollow form), and that other guy with the big ass chair is way too massive in his Arrancar form to be a Vasto Lorde.

My best is when a VL becomes an Arrancar, they lose a majority of their mask, and they look completely human. My money is on Stark being the only VL, if there is one, and he being number 1. That old guy with the crown and chair was way too rash and, to be frank, stupid to be number 1 or a VL.

On a side note, was infact said that a VL is stronger than a captain. Not directly, but if 10 VL (I am assuming Toushiro meant Arrancarized VL) could wipe out SS, with there being 13 captains, including Yama-jii, Shunsui, Ukitake, and Unohana (no matter what you say, those 4 are the most powerful captians. The 3 captains were some of the original Gotie 13 Captians and Yama-jii is infact the Captain-Commander. Enough said) there is no way the average captain can take a VL. The only ones that could would most likely be the original 4 I just mentioned or the Vizards. (Yes that includes Ichigo after he visits Hichigo again, and becomes more powerful.) But the original 4 and the Vizards could only take a VL in a 1-1 fight. 4-on-10 is no way possible for the Original 4, to take on 10 Arrancarized VL.
I mean Rukia barely beat an Arrancarized Gillian and she is a text-book deffinition of an entry-level Lt class Shinigami. Most of the Lt's right now can bankai and are at entry-level Captain class Shinigami, along with Toushiro (he is only entry-level because his physical inhibits his reiatsu. Once he hits puberty he is going to skyrocket. Eventually, thanks to his Zanpakto, which is the same level as Yama-jii's, he will be just as strong as the old man) and that dog Captain (Iba's captain) would only be able to take on entry-level Arrancarized Adujachas. Zaraki along with Bayakuya, Soi Fon and a few others are only mid-level Captains and can only take on mid-level Arrancarized Adjuchas. (Bayakuya and Miyori took on entry-level Adjuchas.) Grimmjaw was dancing with the line of mid-level and high-level Adjuchas, and Ichigo, with this mask is the same on the Shinigami side. (basically Ichigo is also dancing with the line between mid-level to high level captain class, with his mask on. But keep in mind he is still young, relatively inexperienced, and he has not mastered his shikai nor bankai. Once he does that he will be High-level Cpt class and once he masters his Vizard powers he will be just as strong and with age stronger than the Original 4)
Ulquiora is entry high-level Adjucha, and we will see how an entry high-level Cpt takes him on. (Ichigo)

With all that said, only Stark might me a VL, and should Aizen enlist 9 more, the Original 4 and the VIzards are gonna really have to pull this one out of their ass, and then some.

manymanymomok

09-11-2008, 02:40 AM

While I disagree with you on your opinion that only Stark is a arrancar VL, I liked how you briefly classified the captains, lieutenants and espada. Its similar to how I believe they should be, and logically explains each fight as a matter of simply 'stronger one wins' and not plotkai.

It also sets the stage for Ulquiorra possibly losing to Ichigo, though its really hard to say how KT will develop that fight with so many other captains in HM.

abolished

09-11-2008, 09:08 AM

None of the current Espada are VL, except for maybe Stark, since he has the least amount of mask; infact, I can't remember him having one. A VL is supposed to be human like in form, with the exception of the mask of course. So, I am going to guess they look more like Vizards, minus the Zanpakto and human skin, and with the addition of a Hollow hole.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315/12-13/

The remains of Stark's mask are down around the bottom of his neck it looks much like the bottom of a jaw. As far as Stark having the least amount of mask, I think that is a false statement. The way I see it the big three: Hallibel, Barragan and Stark all have close to equal amounts of mask left from their arrancarization. Though, Hallibel's might be a surprise as you can't see much from what her clothes cover.

Stri

09-11-2008, 09:38 AM

Lol. I keep hearing this statement of if the SS does barely win against the top 3 espada or lose, and Aizen does manage to introduce a new set of VL's(more than likely stronger than the top 3 we've seen). People seem to be under the impression that the Vizards will be the ones to take on the new VL's(IF their are any.)

My question is what makes you think that if Yama-ji can't even hold his own against the top 3 espada or a new set of VL. How will the vizard possibly make a difference considering NONE of them are above Yama-ji. We've yet to conclude they are even above Shunsui/Ukitake/Unohana. The Vizards are not nearly as powerful as people seem to believe.

The only thing we know is that their potentially strongest member(shinji), can toy with the 6th espada in his unreleased form(not counting the 6th espada wasn't in too good of a shape to begin with.) Going by simple power scaling off of that, I would place Shinji slightly above the 4th espada at best.

I just fail to see how if the Head commander does indeed fall or the stronger of SS, the Vizard will have a better chance when they have yet to show they are even above the uppers of SS. They won't. I like the vizards too, but come on. That little scrap with GJ isn't saying much. It put them slightly further down imo.

Intense

09-11-2008, 09:44 AM

In regards to the piece of mask talking: Szayel is possibly the one with the less remains of it, so quite probably, VLs have that said humanoid look in their hollow/released form.

Stri

09-11-2008, 09:54 AM

That is actually a good point. Lets go down the list shall we?:

Yammi: Yet to be known, and nobody honestly gives a shit.
Aaroniero: A large tentacle creature
Szayel: Had an extension of tentacles or stems out of his back. Not quite sure what that was.
Zomari: Had a large pumpkin like body.
Grimmjow: A much slimmer panther-like appearance, basically only growing an sharper set of claws, teeth, with an addition of long hair. Body color changed.
Nnoitora: No real big appearance. Only grew an extra pair of arms.

In a way it does tend to get slightly more human, as it gets to the higher espada.

Lnrd

09-11-2008, 02:17 PM

Lol. I keep hearing this statement of if the SS does barely win against the top 3 espada or lose, and Aizen does manage to introduce a new set of VL's(more than likely stronger than the top 3 we've seen). People seem to be under the impression that the Vizards will be the ones to take on the new VL's(IF their are any.)

My question is what makes you think that if Yama-ji can't even hold his own against the top 3 espada or a new set of VL. How will the vizard possibly make a difference considering NONE of them are above Yama-ji. We've yet to conclude they are even above Shunsui/Ukitake/Unohana. The Vizards are not nearly as powerful as people seem to believe.

The only thing we know is that their potentially strongest member(shinji), can toy with the 6th espada in his unreleased form(not counting the 6th espada wasn't in too good of a shape to begin with.) Going by simple power scaling off of that, I would place Shinji slightly above the 4th espada at best.

I just fail to see how if the Head commander does indeed fall or the stronger of SS, the Vizard will have a better chance when they have yet to show they are even above the uppers of SS. They won't. I like the vizards too, but come on. That little scrap with GJ isn't saying much. It put them slightly further down imo.

Because they're the only remaining x-factor imo. The Royal Gaurd imo consists of mid to high tier captains with one being just as strong or a little weaker than Yama-jii. So they're not going to be any help if Aizen pulls out 10 VL arrancars and each one of them is stronger than Yama.

The Vaizards are the last hope if (I really mean when) the Gotei 13 fails. Because who the fuck else will be able to defeat those 10 uber VLs and 3 defected Vaizard captains because Ichigo sure as hell isn't going to beat all of those guys.

Fatstogey

09-11-2008, 02:55 PM

I think everyone is overestimating the VL's.

All hollows evolve. So one would assume VL would come in generations. And i would think Yama has fought a VL before. Because SS still rules. And we can assume there have been VL's before.

Personally i think its all a diversion. thats what Aizen does. He sacrifices pawns. And i think even the VL are pawns to him. Hes out for numero uno. I think Aizen expects his espada to get pwned. I also think that he is an illusion. Hes gonna let them fight, think hes on the scene in Yama's fire ball. When really he isnt even there at all. And behind the scenes doing something. Cause we have seen him do this before. So it isnt such a stretch.

divine saint of aries

09-11-2008, 04:33 PM

even though i can agree and disagree with some of you

IMO still i think that none of the espada are vasto lordes and that aizen will pull out new characters to be the vastos

Athane

09-11-2008, 04:48 PM

I think everyone is overestimating the VL's.

All hollows evolve. So one would assume VL would come in generations. And i would think Yama has fought a VL before. Because SS still rules. And we can assume there have been VL's before.

Personally i think its all a diversion. thats what Aizen does. He sacrifices pawns. And i think even the VL are pawns to him. Hes out for numero uno. I think Aizen expects his espada to get pwned. I also think that he is an illusion. Hes gonna let them fight, think hes on the scene in Yama's fire ball. When really he isnt even there at all. And behind the scenes doing something. Cause we have seen him do this before. So it isnt such a stretch.

That's what I'm wondering, considering from what we know the Hogyoukou is still there in HM and Aizen left Ulquiorra to guard HM? Is it because Ulquiorra is the only one he can trust, or is it because this little skirmish he has going on right now is nothing more than a diversion so that Ulq can kill Kurosaki? Is Ulquiorra purposely mislabeled as the 4th strongest even though he himself acknowledged he was the 4th overall most powerful espada? Ulquiorra is a soldier at heart, he goes along with the plan for what's needed, so if Aizen did purposely mis-label him, he would be the perfect espada for a rouse such as that.

Aizen - Hey ulq, between you and me, even though you're the strongest I'm going to label you as #4 to throw everyone off, it's for the greater plan.

Ulq - I see, as you wish.

The short conversation above is pure speculation, but it points out the key characteristic of Ulq, and that is his loyalty. He's strong and he's also smart as hell. Aizen wanted Orihime to be abducted, Ulquiorra was the one that devised the plan himself and executed it perfectly so that even her closest friends believed even just a little bit that she betrayed them of her own free will. Thus, making them lack resolve.

But then again, why have Ichigo going up against the top espada? If ulq was purposely mis-labeled? I think this little skirmish in the fake KKT is just so Aizen has Kurosaki out of the picture, Aizen knows Ichigo is going to go after Orihime 100%, I could already see that if Ichigo was in the fake KKT right now Aizen would be like "Oh, how interesting so you decided not to save the girl" and then Aizen thinking *fuck what a wrench in my plan*. Because aizen keeps saying "we'll just create the key in soul society".

Yama-jii says, "He was looking at the state of which when the Ouken was first created", yea, considering that in and of itself could be an illusion (the information that was seen in the library or whatever).

Aizen's zan's ability is the perfect plot device for the author of a story as well, as in a case he messes up on something he can just say "oh that was just an illusion".

There is also math involved in this, the fall of SS needs 10 vasto lorde under aizen's command, including aizen tousen and gin that's 13, there's 13 captains in the gotei 13. So flat out that's saying Aizen's 13 vs SS 13, SS loses hands down.

Now in Hueco mundo there is, Kenpachi, Unohana, Byakuya and Mayuri. 4 captains, plus Aizen, Tousen and Gin who defected, that makes 7. 12 - 7 = 5,

5 Gotei 13 captains in the fake KKT right now, Soi-fon, yama, Ukitake, Shunsui, komo and Hitsugaya. This is another reason why I believe Ulq and number 3 are not VL say number 3 is highest level of adjuchas possible (if you're saying that mid-level high level captain or whatever), top 2 are VL that even's out the playing field if you look at gillian being regular old shinigami, adjuchas like VC's of hollow and Vasto lorde being the captain. So then it's basically 6 v 6 each side, fraccion could be VC's 3rd seat 4th seat etc. (this is all just comparative and not stated in the manga). since top 2 are VL + tousen, aizen, gin = 5 then whatever 3rd guy = 6

Another reason why Aizen might have ulq in HM is because of his eye, it regenerated, so even if ulq dies, they can still go find his eye and be like "let's see how much stronger the ryoka got".

So in conclusion, I think the top two espada are VL maybe the top 3 are VL, which would be a perfect reason for aizen to want to seperate those other gotei 13 captains from the others.

All speculation, just my opinion. Some facts and theories.
Later.

divine saint of aries

09-11-2008, 05:06 PM

i also believe that if the 4 remaining espada are not vasto lordes it would ruin those characters becuase they would not be around for long and would be replaced by the new vasto lordes

Yokokorama

09-11-2008, 05:08 PM

I doubt Ulquiorra is #1, mainly due to the fact that Ichigo is about to fight him, and evidently give him a run for his money. It is not time for Ichigo to be on par with the top Espada yet. He just barely beat the 6th, so even fighting the 4th is going overboard in my opinion. However, #1 is just ridiculous.

I think Ulquiorra was there to make us think he was #1 (before his number was shown), but then showed us he was only 4th strongest. That gives us an idea of how powerful the 3 above him should be (i.e. if Ulquiorra is that strong, imagine how strong somebody three ranks above him would be).

divine saint of aries

09-11-2008, 05:11 PM

I doubt Ulquiorra is #1, mainly due to the fact that Ichigo is about to fight him, and evidently give him a run for his money. It is not time for Ichigo to be on par with the top Espada yet. He just barely beat the 6th, so even fighting the 4th is going overboard in my opinion. However, #1 is just ridiculous.

I think Ulquiorra was there to make us think he was #1 (before his number was shown), but then showed us he was only 4th strongest. That gives us an idea of how powerful the 3 above him should be (i.e. if Ulquiorra is that strong, imagine how strong somebody three ranks above him would be).

agreed about ulquiorra not being number 1

also if ulquiorra looses to ichigo it also means he is not a vasto lorde

and finally since the espada are going to do battle against the captains it leads me to think that there are also not vasto lordes

so in total i think the vasto lordes will be new characters

Athane

09-11-2008, 05:17 PM

I doubt Ulquiorra is #1, mainly due to the fact that Ichigo is about to fight him, and evidently give him a run for his money. It is not time for Ichigo to be on par with the top Espada yet. He just barely beat the 6th, so even fighting the 4th is going overboard in my opinion. However, #1 is just ridiculous.

I think Ulquiorra was there to make us think he was #1 (before his number was shown), but then showed us he was only 4th strongest. That gives us an idea of how powerful the 3 above him should be (i.e. if Ulquiorra is that strong, imagine how strong somebody three ranks above him would be).

Yeh, I wasn't saying he was for sure #1, I was saying if he was mis-labeled I can see how it would be explained. I agree with you guys though, as I said I think maybe 1-2 could be top vl MAYBE the 3rd as well. I stated it waaaay before in this thread why I think none of the espada are VL. So yea I do agree with you guys on thinking that these guys aren't VL.

divine saint of aries

09-11-2008, 05:24 PM

Yeh, I wasn't saying he was for sure #1, I was saying if he was mis-labeled I can see how it would be explained. I agree with you guys though, as I said I think maybe 1-2 could be top vl MAYBE the 3rd as well. I stated it waaaay before in this thread why I think none of the espada are VL. So yea I do agree with you guys on thinking that these guys aren't VL.

i think its obvious that there not vasto lordes becuase there about to do battle with the captains and there only 3 of them not counting there little followers

and it was stated aizen needed 10 vasto lordes to defeat soul society and thats not the case here with the espada

Stri

09-11-2008, 05:27 PM

The Vaizards are the last hope if (I really mean when) the Gotei 13 fails. Because who the fuck else will be able to defeat those 10 uber VLs and 3 defected Vaizard captains because Ichigo sure as hell isn't going to beat all of those guys.

Thats my point. If those 10 VL's are around Yama's level, hell.. Shunsui/Ukitake level. The vizard will not do shit. They are not "that" strong.

Yokokorama

09-11-2008, 05:35 PM

i think its obvious that there not vasto lordes becuase there about to do battle with the captains and there only 3 of them not counting there little followers

and it was stated aizen needed 10 vasto lordes to defeat soul society and thats not the case here with the espada

Actually, that might prove that they might be VL. I posted this on the beginning of this thread, but here it is again [my 'theory'].

Hitsugaya said that 10 VL [with Aizen] are needed to defeat Soul Society, correct? Now, usually SS means the 13 Captains. However, lets just assume he was talking about the 10 Captains remaining [after the defection]. Basically, 10 VL and Aizen are needed to take out those 10 Captains/SS.

Now, we don't even have 10 Captains. We have 6 [Hitsugaya, Shunsui, Soi-Fon, Ukitake, Komumora, and of course Yamamoto]. So we have Aizen, Tousen, and Gin [in the fire fortress ATM], and the 3 top Espada.

Now, Hitsugaya was talking about normal VL's when he was talking to Ichigo. He never said anything about Arrancarized VL, which are probably significantly stronger than their un-Arrancarized counter parts. So the 3 top Espada + Aizen and Co are probably stronger than the remaining Captains [assuming the top 3 are VL].

This theory can only work if what Aizen said about 'not having to lift a finger' was talking about combat, and not some tricky/unheard of plan.

Kind of confusing, I hope its clear what I'm saying.

Also note, this is a possibility, not really what I think is going to happen.

GOWSRB

09-11-2008, 05:40 PM

I have to agree with Stri on this one. Because considering that in the past when they were turned into vizards, all of them were relatively young captains all around. And all were shit compared to Yama then. For the vizards to be able to handle 10 AVLs, all of whom are supposedly strong enough to beat Yama-jii, then SS is completely and utterly fucked. The RG and the vizards would not be able to stop 10 people as strong as Yama-jii unless all of them were somehow stronger than Yama-jii or have some kind of extremely hax abilities. Because going by a good idea of how strong they were in the past (I think it's safe to say that the strongest out of the bunch was probably about as strong as Byakuya during SS arc) there is no way that now, even with the hollow masks, that they are on par with Yama-jii.

Yokokorama

09-11-2008, 05:41 PM

If each VL was as strong as Yamamoto, it would only take about 2 or 3 of them to take out SS, possibly 4, but definitely not 10. There are only 10 Captains, afterall.

Fatstogey

09-11-2008, 05:47 PM

That's what I'm wondering, considering from what we know the Hogyoukou is still there in HM and Aizen left Ulquiorra to guard HM? Is it because Ulquiorra is the only one he can trust, or is it because this little skirmish he has going on right now is nothing more than a diversion so that Ulq can kill Kurosaki? Is Ulquiorra purposely mislabeled as the 4th strongest even though he himself acknowledged he was the 4th overall most powerful espada? Ulquiorra is a soldier at heart, he goes along with the plan for what's needed, so if Aizen did purposely mis-label him, he would be the perfect espada for a rouse such as that.

Aizen - Hey ulq, between you and me, even though you're the strongest I'm going to label you as #4 to throw everyone off, it's for the greater plan.

Ulq - I see, as you wish.

The short conversation above is pure speculation, but it points out the key characteristic of Ulq, and that is his loyalty. He's strong and he's also smart as hell. Aizen wanted Orihime to be abducted, Ulquiorra was the one that devised the plan himself and executed it perfectly so that even her closest friends believed even just a little bit that she betrayed them of her own free will. Thus, making them lack resolve.

But then again, why have Ichigo going up against the top espada? If ulq was purposely mis-labeled? I think this little skirmish in the fake KKT is just so Aizen has Kurosaki out of the picture, Aizen knows Ichigo is going to go after Orihime 100%, I could already see that if Ichigo was in the fake KKT right now Aizen would be like "Oh, how interesting so you decided not to save the girl" and then Aizen thinking *fuck what a wrench in my plan*. Because aizen keeps saying "we'll just create the key in soul society".

Yama-jii says, "He was looking at the state of which when the Ouken was first created", yea, considering that in and of itself could be an illusion (the information that was seen in the library or whatever).

Aizen's zan's ability is the perfect plot device for the author of a story as well, as in a case he messes up on something he can just say "oh that was just an illusion".

There is also math involved in this, the fall of SS needs 10 vasto lorde under aizen's command, including aizen tousen and gin that's 13, there's 13 captains in the gotei 13. So flat out that's saying Aizen's 13 vs SS 13, SS loses hands down.

Now in Hueco mundo there is, Kenpachi, Unohana, Byakuya and Mayuri. 4 captains, plus Aizen, Tousen and Gin who defected, that makes 7. 12 - 7 = 5,

5 Gotei 13 captains in the fake KKT right now, Soi-fon, yama, Ukitake, Shunsui, komo and Hitsugaya. This is another reason why I believe Ulq and number 3 are not VL say number 3 is highest level of adjuchas possible (if you're saying that mid-level high level captain or whatever), top 2 are VL that even's out the playing field if you look at gillian being regular old shinigami, adjuchas like VC's of hollow and Vasto lorde being the captain. So then it's basically 6 v 6 each side, fraccion could be VC's 3rd seat 4th seat etc. (this is all just comparative and not stated in the manga). since top 2 are VL + tousen, aizen, gin = 5 then whatever 3rd guy = 6

Another reason why Aizen might have ulq in HM is because of his eye, it regenerated, so even if ulq dies, they can still go find his eye and be like "let's see how much stronger the ryoka got".

So in conclusion, I think the top two espada are VL maybe the top 3 are VL, which would be a perfect reason for aizen to want to seperate those other gotei 13 captains from the others.

All speculation, just my opinion. Some facts and theories.
Later.

Who says 10 VL? Toushiro? And he would know this how? Has he ever seen one? I bet you Yama has. And hes still here.

divine saint of aries

09-11-2008, 06:04 PM

Actually, that might prove that they might be VL. I posted this on the beginning of this thread, but here it is again [my 'theory'].

Hitsugaya said that 10 VL [with Aizen] are needed to defeat Soul Society, correct? Now, usually SS means the 13 Captains. However, lets just assume he was talking about the 10 Captains remaining [after the defection]. Basically, 10 VL and Aizen are needed to take out those 10 Captains/SS.

Now, we don't even have 10 Captains. We have 6 [Hitsugaya, Shunsui, Soi-Fon, Ukitake, Komumora, and of course Yamamoto]. So we have Aizen, Tousen, and Gin [in the fire fortress ATM], and the 3 top Espada.

Now, Hitsugaya was talking about normal VL's when he was talking to Ichigo. He never said anything about Arrancarized VL, which are probably significantly stronger than their un-Arrancarized counter parts. So the 3 top Espada + Aizen and Co are probably stronger than the remaining Captains [assuming the top 3 are VL].

This theory can only work if what Aizen said about 'not having to lift a finger' was talking about combat, and not some tricky/unheard of plan.

Kind of confusing, I hope its clear what I'm saying.

Also note, this is a possibility, not really what I think is going to happen.

if they were vasto lordes why would they need there little underlings?

UltimateX

09-11-2008, 06:45 PM

Who says 10 VL? Toushiro? And he would know this how? Has he ever seen one? I bet you Yama has. And hes still here.

Yeah because that VL was not Arrancarized. A top-level VL is the same top-level Captain-class (the Original 4, Yama-Ji, Aizen), they have maxed out their Hollow potential and can no longer become anymore powerful on their own. Arrancarize that and you truely get a being that has surpassed the limits of Hollow and Shinigami.

Thats my point. If those 10 VL's are around Yama's level, hell.. Shunsui/Ukitake level. The vizard will not do shit. They are not "that" strong.

I have to disagree. I am not saying these Vizards are Gods or anything, but think about it this way. The Original 4 Captains and Yama-Jii are the Shinigami equivalent to top-level Vasto Lorde, meaning they have maxed out their Shinigami potential and, like Aizen, cannot get any stronger on their own, Hollowify that and again, you get a being that has surpassed the limits of Shinigami and Hollow.
I am not saying the current group of Vizards are Top-level Captain class. When we saw them fight 100 years ago, I would say they were mid-level Captains. (not including the Lt's) (Bayakuya and Kenpachi) Nower days I would say the Vizard ex-captains (Love, Shinji, and that one with the short white hair) must be lower to high-level Captains without their masks. ( Urahara, Yourichi, and Gin) I mean yeah Shinji taking out GJ, who was base form and was weakend, but what form Shinji was in is what says something. Shinji went Vizard, but only used his base Zanpakto. We have yet to see any of the Vizard's realeases, so imagine someone as strong as Gin or Urahara using shi/bankai and going Vizard.
My point is the ex-Captain Vizards should not underestimated.

Fatstogey

09-11-2008, 07:29 PM

Yeah because that VL was not Arrancarized. A top-level VL is the same top-level Captain-class (the Original 4, Yama-Ji, Aizen), they have maxed out their Hollow potential and can no longer become anymore powerful on their own. Arrancarize that and you truely get a being that has surpassed the limits of Hollow and Shinigami.

I have to disagree. I am not saying these Vizards are Gods or anything, but think about it this way. The Original 4 Captains and Yama-Jii are the Shinigami equivalent to top-level Vasto Lorde, meaning they have maxed out their Shinigami potential and, like Aizen, cannot get any stronger on their own, Hollowify that and again, you get a being that has surpassed the limits of Shinigami and Hollow.
I am not saying the current group of Vizards are Top-level Captain class. When we saw them fight 100 years ago, I would say they were mid-level Captains. (not including the Lt's) (Bayakuya and Kenpachi) Nower days I would say the Vizard ex-captains (Love, Shinji, and that one with the short white hair) must be lower to high-level Captains without their masks. ( Urahara, Yourichi, and Gin) I mean yeah Shinji taking out GJ, who was base form and was weakend, but what form Shinji was in is what says something. Shinji went Vizard, but only used his base Zanpakto. We have yet to see any of the Vizard's realeases, so imagine someone as strong as Gin or Urahara using shi/bankai and going Vizard.
My point is the ex-Captain Vizards should not underestimated.

You get a hollow with bankai lol

manymanymomok

09-11-2008, 10:19 PM

I really don't see why they top 3 can't be arrancar VL.

It's just about the only way they can even attempt match up with the 6 captains in fake KKT. VL are supposed to be extremely strong and rare. It also makes sense that Aizen has not managed to perfect his Espada.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this (maybe if you have I'm sorry but I didn't come across it in this thread) but the fact that he only has either 3-4 VL arrancar at the top ranks of his Espada is consistent with the story so far.

Aizen's camp has suddenly made their move not because of a perfect 10 arrancar VL espada but rather an elaborate plan that has lured/tricked the enemy worked. He has successfully divided SS and trapped half of the enemy's strength (roughly, including Ichigo and co) in HM. Obviously he believes that his plan can be forwarded ahead in such circumstances.

I also don't see how people can say "maybe Aizen screwed up/underestimated so those 3 aren't VL and will lose". This is the same Aizen, the evil genius that threw SS into chaos and hoodwinked them, and his entire plan went almost flawlessly (he even managed to time his 'escape' nicely) If you say Aizen is underestimating SS, I say you are underestimating Aizen.

This roughly sums up why I think the top 3 Espada are going to give the Yama and his captains at least a pretty tough fight. I also believe they will at least surprise SS with their level of power/strength.

Yokokorama

09-12-2008, 02:49 AM

if they were vasto lordes why would they need there little underlings?

Every Espada has Fraccion.

UltimateX

09-12-2008, 07:50 AM

Every Espada has Fraccion.

He is right. Some only have 1 or 2 (Stark) while others have a little possie (GJ) and others have too many to count. (Syzel)

Stri

09-12-2008, 08:55 AM

I have to disagree. I am not saying these Vizards are Gods or anything, but think about it this way. The Original 4 Captains and Yama-Jii are the Shinigami equivalent to top-level Vasto Lorde, meaning they have maxed out their Shinigami potential and, like Aizen, cannot get any stronger on their own.

I'll have to stop right there. People tend to generalize the big 3 as a whole group, and base their strength off merely that. That would work well, if Yama-ji wasn't in an entirely different league than any other of the big 3. Secondly Aizen "never" once stated he has reached the pinnacle of a shinigami's power. Yes, he did in fact say he wishes to surpass them, but he never said he was at "this" wall. I don't get why people infer that, when he never implied.

Just because their is a wall to a shinigami's limit, doesn't put them at a disadvantage against Arrancar or VL's. The question lies in whether just how much power is obtained when reaching a shinigami's limit, and how long it takes to get there. Yama-ji seems to have more than likely reached his. It isn't farfetched in the least when you consider the power gap between him and the rest of the captains, so its evident it's an extreme amount of power. With that said, I don't see "any" VL as of now, beating Yama-ji in a 1on1.

Hollowify that and again, you get a being that has surpassed the limits of Shinigami and Hollow.

No, it isn't that simple. Going off of this logic one would say that you could take a regular non-seated shinigami, give them hollow powers in which that would propel them above the limit of shinigami, which isn't even near the case. Just because they did obtain hollowfication does in no way mean they are near the limit of a shinigami, with due time yes they could surpass it. as of the moment? No. For all we know it could take 1000's of years to reach the limit of a shinigami. Unfortunately many people assume this. When they see "Hollow+Shinigami", they immediately deem them above the rest.

I am not saying the current group of Vizards are Top-level Captain class. When we saw them fight 100 years ago, I would say they were mid-level Captains. (not including the Lt's) (Bayakuya and Kenpachi) Nower days I would say the Vizard ex-captains (Love, Shinji, and that one with the short white hair) must be lower to high-level Captains without their masks.

Low to high-level, without their masks? Lol. I wouldn't put any of them above the senior captains, with Shikai+Bankai activated. Beside maybe Shinji, but not even close to Yama-ji. I wouldn't put any of them in the High-tier based off a hundred years ago. Not even including half of the group were merely VC's. Low-High tier without mask? Judging off Shinji's scrap with GJ. No. Shinji w/mask did beat GJ, but you can't remove the fact GJ was just weakened by Ichigo, and didn't have an entire arm.

As far as I'm concerned, if they were high-tier without a mask. Shinji would've beaten GJ in that short amount of time. I don't know if Shunsui/Ukitake could beat him in such a short amount of time, but it isn't to unlikely. Yama-ji could have definitely dropped GJ without releasing in that short amount of time. People also have to realize, Shunsui and Ukitake were there, what? 1,000 years before even the Vizard even made captaincy. I'd place Shinji at maybe mid-tier at that point, the rest around low tier.

I mean yeah Shinji taking out GJ, who was base form and was weakend, but what form Shinji was in is what says something. Shinji went Vizard, but only used his base Zanpakto.

Exactly. I would say Shinji would need atleast his Shikai to go up against GJ, if he had released. With that simple power scale, Shinji is little bit above the 4th espada at best.

My point is the ex-Captain Vizards should not underestimated.

My point is that they shouldn't be overestimated, considering they have yet to demonstrate anything, that would put them in the high-tier range yet.

divine saint of aries

09-12-2008, 04:21 PM

Every Espada has Fraccion.

if the vasto lordes are as strong as there predicted to be then they should not need underlings

UltimateX

09-12-2008, 04:25 PM

Why should the boss do all the work? "hey, minion, get me a sandwich." "hey, bitch, take take of these weaklings for me." "Hey, ho. take off your pants and bend over. I am horny." "Slave, clean my room"

WHy do Aizen need or Yama-jii need underlings? The underlings do small tasks that superior does not wanna bother with, but the superior does the real work.

divine saint of aries

09-12-2008, 04:44 PM

Why should the boss do all the work? "hey, minion, get me a sandwich." "hey, bitch, take take of these weaklings for me." "Hey, ho. take off your pants and bend over. I am horny." "Slave, clean my room"

WHy do Aizen need or Yama-jii need underlings? The underlings do small tasks that superior does not wanna bother with, but the superior does the real work.

i know what you mean but i was refering to the part where they dragged them along for the battle

UltimateX

09-12-2008, 04:48 PM

The Espada thought there were going to be tons of really wear shinigami there as well as the really strong ones. So, have the fracsiones take out the weaker ones.

divine saint of aries

09-12-2008, 04:58 PM

The Espada thought there were going to be tons of really wear shinigami there as well as the really strong ones. So, have the fracsiones take out the weaker ones.

still if vasto lordes are stronger than captains they should not have any trouble wiping them out with the rest of the lower shinigami

UltimateX

09-12-2008, 05:01 PM

Just because you're strong does not mean you're lazy. Why would a small shop store manager need employees? He can do all of their tasks. but he doesn't have that much time or he is just too lazy to do everything himself even though he can do it with ease.

divine saint of aries

09-12-2008, 05:08 PM

Just because you're strong does not mean you're lazy. Why would a small shop store manager need employees? He can do all of their tasks. but he doesn't have that much time or he is just too lazy to do everything himself even though he can do it with ease.

i know i know

but why would super powerful enemies need underlings for a battle against opponents they could wipe out themselves and quite easiy (the shinigami below captain level)

Yokokorama

09-12-2008, 05:11 PM

You can say the same for the Gotei 13. Why do the Captains have seated officers since they're much stronger than them?

Having underlings means you don't have to do it yourself. I doubt the top 3 Espada would want to go fight with seated officers/VC's.

lelouche

09-12-2008, 05:12 PM

Because they are smart? They should be worried about the strong enemys not the nobodys. Why waste energy on them when it might be needed later against stronger opponents. Also its smart of them not to underestimate their enemys and bring along a lil more allies.

divine saint of aries

09-14-2008, 09:01 PM

i got a question considering if none of the espada are vasto lordes

would a vasto lorde (not in aizens army) be stronger than any adjustas espada? (considering if all of them are adjustas)

manymanymomok

09-14-2008, 09:51 PM

The average strength of a VL is supposed to be at least on par with a captain level. Whilst the range of that is huge, I think we can safely assume it to be at least lower-tier. Considering that, I do believe a normal VL's strength could be on par with the lower ranked (higher numbered) espadas. But if they release, a VL could possibly lose, so its tough to say.

UltimateX

09-15-2008, 01:32 PM

The average strength of a VL is supposed to be at least on par with a captain level. Whilst the range of that is huge, I think we can safely assume it to be at least lower-tier. Considering that, I do believe a normal VL's strength could be on par with the lower ranked (higher numbered) espadas. But if they release, a VL could possibly lose, so its tough to say.

I disagree. I would think a normal VL would be more Mid-level Captain Class and an Arrancarized VL in their released state would easily be High-Level Captian class, even dancing between the line of High-level and Top-level.

Dax01

09-15-2008, 09:25 PM

VL have not appeared yet, when they do, you are gonna find out. Its gonna be LouUUuuUUUuuUUd!

Thanks to my Zangetsus sig fans. I will not forget.

manymanymomok

09-16-2008, 10:01 AM

I disagree. I would think a normal VL would be more Mid-level Captain Class and an Arrancarized VL in their released state would easily be High-Level Captian class, even dancing between the line of High-level and Top-level. hehe which part do u disagree? I only mentioned that I believe a VL would be at least on par with low-tier captain. what you said sort of ties in with my post... in fact I hold a similar view to your current post lol.

UltimateX

09-16-2008, 12:56 PM

I just disagreed with how (un)powerful you said they were.

manymanymomok

09-16-2008, 07:08 PM

I didn't say they were not powerful.. I said at least on par with low-tier captain. You said they were mid-level captain. They mean the same dude. In fact my statement allows room for more power; the underlying implication of my statement is that a VL could even be high-tier captain.

In any case all these are still estimates/guesses/conjectures that can't be proven until the manga shows something.

divine saint of aries

09-17-2008, 04:39 PM

if a regular vasto lordes are stronger than the captains theres going to be serious problems and not to mention that there not arrancanized yet either

UltimateX

09-17-2008, 05:05 PM

Well, also who's to say that the VL would be willing to join Aizen? Yes, they are ridiculously powerful and they are Hollow, but who said they had a lust for more power? Or what if they hate shinigami so much they would forfeit the chance for more power because a shinigami is the one offering. Or they just may be peace loving and have no desire for more power.

xPyrox

09-17-2008, 05:24 PM

Well, also who's to say that the VL would be willing to join Aizen? Yes, they are ridiculously powerful and they are Hollow, but who said they had a lust for more power? Or what if they hate shinigami so much they would forfeit the chance for more power because a shinigami is the one offering. Or they just may be peace loving and have no desire for more power.

A peace loving hollow. Rotfl.

Nah I think Ulq and the top three are vastro lordes. But really..
I mean, there would have to be the equivilant of an aizen / Yama vastro lorde and a hitsugaya vastro lorde. they can't all be one strength.

UltimateX

09-17-2008, 05:28 PM

You have a good point, VL's would have different levels of strength, but I am still convinced none of the current Espada are VL's

Shiba_Kaien-182

09-18-2008, 11:50 AM

well all we really know is that they are more powerful or as powerful as Captain class Shinigami. The silohouette we see of one looks kind of like Ulquiorra and in the anime(but it wasn't featured in the manga, i think) in the first series you see Grand Fisher saying "i will go" and sort of bowing to these large Hollows, one sort of looks like Ulquiorra's head but has like one eye and a snake like body, perhaps they are meant to be Vasto Lords

Nate D

10-12-2008, 01:24 PM

In a flash back on the manga right before Ken-chan killed Nnoi with the second attack it was Nel and Nnoi talking about looking for VL's and then they got into an argument because Nnoi was just killing all the hollows but in the next page it talks about Nel saving Nnoi does that make anyone believe that they found a VL and Nnoi tried to fight it to prove he was the strongest and Nel had to come save him??

Just realized this thought it was kinda cool

Fatstogey

10-12-2008, 07:21 PM

In a flash back on the manga right before Ken-chan killed Nnoi with the second attack it was Nel and Nnoi talking about looking for VL's and then they got into an argument because Nnoi was just killing all the hollows but in the next page it talks about Nel saving Nnoi does that make anyone believe that they found a VL and Nnoi tried to fight it to prove he was the strongest and Nel had to come save him??

Just realized this thought it was kinda cool

Yo just for future reference when you ask something like this you need to put the page in a spoiler in your post. CAuse i know what your talking about but i would need to know the exact wording to make a speculation on your topic. lol and im just too lazy to go hunt it down. So you either need to post a link to the page or put the page in a spoiler in your post.

Yea i know your gettin a rough welcome to the forums but most do. lol Welcome to BE!

Athane

10-12-2008, 07:42 PM

In a flash back on the manga right before Ken-chan killed Nnoi with the second attack it was Nel and Nnoi talking about looking for VL's and then they got into an argument because Nnoi was just killing all the hollows but in the next page it talks about Nel saving Nnoi does that make anyone believe that they found a VL and Nnoi tried to fight it to prove he was the strongest and Nel had to come save him??

Just realized this thought it was kinda cool

Nnoi probably got his ass jumped by some arrancar as Nel said the dudes that Nnoi killed were "just like us". The fat Sancho guy looked like an arrancar too. (Note the dudes name wasn't really Sancho but I gave him that name therefore it is Copy-written).

RadiantEclipse

10-12-2008, 07:42 PM

In a flash back on the manga right before Ken-chan killed Nnoi with the second attack it was Nel and Nnoi talking about looking for VL's and then they got into an argument because Nnoi was just killing all the hollows but in the next page it talks about Nel saving Nnoi does that make anyone believe that they found a VL and Nnoi tried to fight it to prove he was the strongest and Nel had to come save him??

Just realized this thought it was kinda cool

It seems to insinuate that Nel beat the living hell out of him but didn't kill him rather than he fought a Vasto Lorde.

Kogashi

10-12-2008, 11:54 PM

I thought it was that Vasto Lorde are the highest evolution of a hollow, meaning it had survived in one way or another for a extendedly long amount of time eating hollows and making sure not to be eaten themselves.

Espada on the other hand are to hollows as Captains are to just normal inhabitants in Soul Society. Any kind of hollow Gillain menos rank or higher can become one after first becoming an arrancar. So Vasto Lorde would just have the potential to be the strongest kind of Espada Aizen can have in his little crazy army.

marszczyn

10-13-2008, 01:59 AM

My prediction is that Ulqiorra is weakest VL. Top 3 are stronger VL.

Lnrd

10-13-2008, 04:47 AM

IMO if the top 4 espada are indeed VLs. They are only low tier VL arrancar.

Athane

10-13-2008, 06:37 AM

IMO if the top 4 espada are indeed VLs. They are only low tier VL arrancar.

Indeed; Agreed.

To Kogashi. I like your analysis

My analysis is that each level of hollow is as follows. (In the spoiler tags kind of long, don't read if you don't want to)

You have regular hollows that could be considered the same level as a plus (in my opinion) plus can't defend themselves against hollows.

Next up is Menos Grande or Gillian, I'd equate these dudes to being the regular old run of the mill shinigami (and as we have seen not just any regular ass shinigami could take one of these guys down), due to Rukia's statement when we first saw one and her saying there was no way for Ichigo to kill it. Hitsugaya's statement that they are the most "numerous"

Next level is Adjuchas, these guys are like the "Vice captain of SS" in my opinion, Grimmjow, mopped the floor with Ichigo a couple of times then Ichigo triumphed later on. Nnoitora was also an Adjuchas as well as Neliel. (Incredibly strong characters). "less numerous and more powerful" It's safe to say alot more shinigami could reach Vice-captain level than could the number of shinigami to reach captain level.

Last level is of course Vasto Lordes. These guys (in my opinion) are the equivalent of captains in SS on the hollow side. We haven't seen one officially yet, there are some speculations as to Ulquiorra and the Top 3 being VL's (and if they were people like myself and others believing they are low tier). Hitsugaya says they are the least abundant and dwell deep within the depths of Hueco Mundo. I pictured SS when he said this because you have Seretei, regular ass shinigami running around the outskirts doing whatever, Vc's a little deeper in and then directly in the middle you have more of where the captains dwell, the captain commander's terrace are in the middle of SS where all of the captain's meetings are held.

Hitsugaya also stated that a "vasto lordes fighting capabalities are above that of a captain" I'm guessing he was saying average captain terms. Which makes alot of sense as seeing how strong Grimmjow was even though he was an Arrancar Adjuchas, he was still able to man handle Ichigo w/o releasing when we first saw him and Ukitake in the SS arc said Ichigo's reiatsu was "captain level".

In my opinion it brings into light just how strong Vasto Lorde arrancar would be if my speculation is indeed true. Hence Hitsugayas statement of "10 vasto lordes under Aizen's command would be the destruction of SS". Some people say it's not exactly canon, but it's really all we have to go off of.

I believe that the top 3 aren't VL, I believe they are the highest tier of Adjuchas. Of course I could be wrong "probably are" and we will see what happens, well, in due time of course!

My analysis is taken from the manga, some of the material here is from other people's speculations as well as my own. Hence why some people believe that the Vaizard's or the RG are going to get involved with this war, but we never know.

There's many different routes it can go though. We will have to wait and see.

My 2 cents (that's probably all it's worth) :amused:

Remahr

10-13-2008, 07:34 AM

The Ulqiorra Vasto Lord theory is one I've held on for for a while. I think it would explain how much mask he has. If power = mask (roughly, there are little exceptions) then Ulqiorra should be like ... 8/9. I think he's either Vasto Lorde or he humanized (i use this the same way as Urahara uses hollowization) himself (or both), like, removed his own mask, unaided by the Hougyoku. If the Hougyoku isn't the only way to turn Shinigami into vaizard then it's not the only way to turn hollows into arrancar.

I like the theory 'cus I didn't read it anywhere :). I think out of all the Espada, Ulqiorra could be one of the oldest, because of his jobs of information recovery and looking over HM while they're away. I think Aizen doesn't want to lose Ulq's eye ability.

I also don't think he's that powerful. I think his release will destroy Ichigo unfairly, even hichigo. To beat him, I hope Ichigo goes one step further with Zangetsu // Shirosaki. Like, limb changes ... but I suppose that'd be too much like Chad's power, and Kubo likes to keep things unique.

Vasto Lorde's are the most powerful of the Menos. They're practically human-shaped without humanization and have muh-hassive power. Like ... Rukia was O_O when Ichigo sent that Gillian away. If the Vasto Lordes are really really really powerful, like Hitsugaya's trying to say, then the people in Karakura are at a disadvantage, with the 3 dissenter Captains, 3 Vasto-Lordes, and all of their Fraccion. (on that note, what's the deal with Stark's kid >_>)

If they are as powerful as they're supposed to be, then humanized, then hougyoku-ised for power, then trained (kinda) by Aizen, then resureccion ... either the older generation or the vaizards will have to do something. but seeing as Urahara's banned from SS, Isshin's got something wierd going on, the Vaizards have been banished with Urahara ... They'll have to pull some clever stuff to get back inside. Urahara can work miracles, though xD.

Rufix

10-15-2008, 04:07 PM

I'd say "captain battle capabilities" refer to "just a captain" guy, not some of stronger ones,

@ Intense if you survive it means your power/battle capabilities are same or higher than your opponent, if not he/she's hardly stronger. Also do not forget they are rare and rather aren't interested in human/typical shinigami souls, that's why there isn't a lot of info about them.

As for Espada: Top4 for sure, what I wonder... If @ least 1 of them is high-tier vasto lorde, he should easly be stronger than ANY captain as Arrancar, not to mention Ressurection. Let's assume Hitsugaya didn't take Bankai mode in his calculations, thou, then typical captain would have higher battle capabilities than Vasto Lorde as they do not have any kind of "1337 h4x stats*10" button. If he took it into calculations... SS is clearly screwed, high tier bankai captain should be slightly worse than high tier Vasto Lorde then... this means... Arrancar with sealed Zanpakutuo just pwns him, in Ressurection it's 1shot?;>

Lucky

10-15-2008, 06:15 PM

As for the top 4 Espada being VL's, I am not totally convinced of, of course, yet at the same time I surely do not dismiss the possibility. Something just strikes me as fishy with Ulquiorra's silhouette looking damned close to that of a 'general' Vasto Lorde when all was being explained. Just seems too easy.

I have always kinda half-assed thought there was just one VL amongst the current Espada, and that is Barragan. If he is to go toe-to-toe with Yama-jii, he would have to be a Vasto Lorde to stand a chance.

Stri

10-15-2008, 06:29 PM

I have always kinda half-assed thought there was just one VL amongst the current Espada, and that is Barragan. If he is to go toe-to-toe with Yama-jii, he would have to be a Vasto Lorde to stand a chance.

Although it wouldn't technically matter would it? Since judging by Ukitake's prior statement, it seems the power difference is hardly noticeable. Also if Shunsui does indeed have the ability to go against Stark, or at least manage to be on "par" with him(I think he does), Barragan would have to be in an entirely different league than Stark, which would totally contradict the prior statement.

This is one of the other reasons I consider Yama-ji to be reserved for Aizen. Seeing if Shunsui can manage to hold up well against Stark, Barragan has no chance against Yama-ji. I'm basically basing this off of Shunsui's and Stark's performance.

Lucky

10-15-2008, 06:53 PM

Although it wouldn't technically matter would it? Since judging by Ukitake's prior statement, it seems the power difference is hardly noticeable. Also if Shunsui does indeed have the ability to go against Stark, or at least manage to be on "par" with him(I think he does), Barragan would have to be in an entirely different league than Stark, which would totally contradict the prior statement.

This is one of the other reasons I consider Yama-ji to be reserved for Aizen. Seeing if Shunsui can manage to hold up well against Stark, Barragan has no chance against Yama-ji. I'm basically basing this off of Shunsui's and Stark's performance.

Well, the thing is we are both putting our theories forth right now.

I must have missed Ukitake saying that the difference between a VL and an Adjucas is 'hardly noticable'. If you meant something else then my bad. I am just saying I have always had a feeling Barragan was the Uno Espada and may be the only current VL, and felt he was destined for the old man vs old man fight with Yama.

I too think Shunsui and Stark will be equally as powerful, but maybe I'm underrating the hell out of Stark and he's a VL also. Then I'm sure we'd see Ukitake and Shunsui vs a released Stark.

As for HalibelGoddessEspada-sama, this is off topic but I can't wait to watch her beat the white hair off of Hitsugaya.

Stri

10-15-2008, 07:00 PM

Well, the thing is we are both putting our theories forth right now.

Agreed.

I must have missed Ukitake saying that the difference between a VL and an Adjucas is 'hardly noticable'. If you meant something else then my bad. I am just saying I have always had a feeling Barragan was the Uno Espada and may be the only current VL, and felt he was destined for the old man vs old man fight with Yama.

Not the difference in classification, but the difference in only the top 3 espada.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-329-page-9.html

I always considered it would be better to actually have the strongest from either side go against one another. Seeing how they perfectly match up Yama-ji and Aizen within the data books so conveniently. Although we both know those should not be taken at face value.

Other than the fact Yama-ji is the very holder of the key to the kings dismension, which I can't necessarily see anyone with such a position dying without any sort of interaction with it beforehand.

I too think Shunsui and Stark will be equally as powerful, but maybe I'm underrating the hell out of Stark and he's a VL also. Then I'm sure we'd see Ukitake and Shunsui vs a released Stark.

Perhaps, but even with that in mind. We have to remember Yama-ji took on both and didn't contain as much as a single scratch or for the matter showed anything as mere as a sweat drop. Still indicating he outclasses them easily simultaneously.

As for HalibelGoddessEspada-sama, this is off topic but I can't wait to watch her beat the white hair off of Hitsugaya.

Quite frankly, I don't think anyone can.

Peachiemark

10-15-2008, 11:21 PM

I think that Shunsui and Ukitake's conversation shouldn't be interpreted to mean that the top three Espada are the same strength. Simply because their only basis of judgment would be their current reiatsus, and Reiatsus can change very quickly or be concealed.

Kenpachi and Ichigo's reiatsus both rose up and up for the entirety of their fight.
Ulquiorria commented that Ichigo's fluctuates tremendously.
Aizen was able to conceal his absolutely mind boggling power from everyone.

I'm personally of the opinion that the top four are all VLs with Stark being the strongest.

marcman320

10-16-2008, 03:19 PM

this is why i believe that only the numero uno presumably barragan is the only VL
nel chpt 294- notoiria "there was a time when we ceased to be humans and became beasts now, s arrancar, we

have regained our sense of reason. beings with reason need a true purpose to fight one anpother you lack that"
nel was 3rd espada and pwned notoiria and looked down on him as garbage, but when they fought when nel

transformed nel was still stronger, when she released nnoitra was scared as hell and he even says that their

last hope of winning and living is gone so he knows nel is still stronger then him. as for szayel apporo granz

when nel first gets defeated he is a priv espada so says the words of nnoitra because he asks nnoit to stop

orderin him around and nnoit was like your not even an espada ne more. chpt 295 pg 3. plus peshe and and dondo

chakka were nels fraccion, and their masks were removed by force so it seems as if they are no longer

arrancar. if that is my question is how do VLs remove their masks completely without force?

and we have no solid proof that any espada r vl's but we do know that we actually have some evidence just like

the top espada. theory we have evidence on the contrary b/c nel speaks in a tone as to nnoit telling him their

orders were to search for (THE) vastolordes nel would probably had said the other if she was one and she is the

previously 3rd espada. in my bet that in her regular form shes still stronger than ulq. also another thing nnoit also says "the point is anyone thats capable of being killd by me couldnt ever be a vastorode". nel was almost killed by nnoit and he could

have killed nel even with a sucker punch. chpt 312.oh btw chpt 312 pg 15 seems like nel saved nnoit from a

vasto lorde thats my interpretation. tell me what yall think either u all missed it or im gettin something wrong? if the espada were attacking everyone in the sake of aizen, that prolly means that most of the vasto lordes probably dont like aizen. im not knockin

that the top espada can be vls but i think that it probably is only the first espada. nnoit clearly was saved

by nel from someone he was attacking going on his rampage which my guess would be it was a VL because nnoitra

was all like wow why did you save me? and nel was just like i dindt do it for you we cant afford to lose an

espada, and the reason she went with him? because she was stronger., so my guess is VL is the only 1 in hueco mundo to kick an espadas ass. probably only the

1st espada is going to be a vl cuz with that we can assume nel ran away fron the vl with nnoit and did not

fight it and was told to search for the vls so... assuming shes not one then next comes barragan i believe he

is the 1st espada pretty sure i mean in the war he wants to go after the leader and hes pretty much calling

the shots as a king, so imma guess hes a vl and hes gonna fight old man yam. figuring that nel messed up nnoit

seemingly saved him from a vl while on a mission to find them, considering aizen says he didnt find any vasto

rodes at the point of nel as espada # 3 and shes still strong as hell in her original form its safe to say

that ulq. is not a vL im pretty sure GJ and below are adjuchas and below. not positive about ulq just cause of the whole shadow thing, but i presume nel was not because in the seen with nnoit, she saved him and ran? #3 espada strong as hell running a fight? regardless if its a the damage was already done an espada attacked a vl? 10 could destroy ss with 13 captains and 13 vc's thats pretty redic. sorry post is so long. and confusing had all this in my head forever haha hope for some feedback those r just the reasons that i have for believing ulq. and is not a VL no clue about halibel and stark tho firm believer that barragan is #1 and VL
one more thing to add if im wrong and the top 4 are all VL's SS is in some big trouble and ichigo is bout to get whooped. we all know toshiro is gonnas get pwned cant wait to see that!

Lucky

10-16-2008, 03:59 PM

The hell? ^^^

Anyway, Stri, I see what you were saying about the VL vs Adjucas discussion. That page just skipped my memory I suppose.

Peasin

10-17-2008, 10:49 AM

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/213/19/

Doesn't this imply that Aizen has not found the vasto lordes yet? And Ulquiorra has already been seen in the manga at this point. I would say that he is certainly not a vasto lorde, but it is still possible that Stark, Halibel and Barragan are.

pumpkin13

10-17-2008, 10:59 AM

yea Peasin, good catch at only 2 posts. This is what I use to support my theory that there is another group of characters waiting in the wings still to be introduced, maybe four or five arrancarized VLs.

However there are arguements against that theasis. Some infer that he means perfecting the espada to mean removing all naturally (and thus weaker) formed arrancars from the Espada. CAn't remember the exact arguement... think it was NAM or VanquishedAngel or someone that put forward some coherant arguements that i was willing to accept as an alternative plausible interpretation even though i personally still go for the other group theory.

TokyoRacer

10-17-2008, 11:06 AM

Well, lets just assume that Baragon is a previous Vastolorde...just for the sake of argument. Lets just say that Aizen used the Hogyoku to transform him from a Vastolorde into an Espada.

Hitsguaya suggested that the Vastolorde's are the most powerful creatures in Hueco Mundo and are just as strong, if not stronger then the captain's. So, automatically a Vastolorde is incredibly strong. If Aizen used the Hogyoku to turn a Vastolorde into an Espada...wouldn't that the former Vastolorde one of the most powerful people/creature to have ever existed in the world of Bleach?

I mean if the current espada are strong for the most part. And if they are all former Hollow who were transformed using the powers of the Hogyoku, could you imagine how strong a transformed Vastolorde would be?

pumpkin13

10-17-2008, 11:12 AM

your misunderstanding something im afraid Tokyo.

Espada is a rank, not the next step up on the evolutionary chain. VL is the second highest step on the chain, the next being an Arrancar.
HOWEVER, it is possible for Gillian or Adjuchas lower down the chain to become Arrancar, however if they do then they cannot go back to being menos in order that they might attempt to achieve VL level, their stuck at that final level of an adjuchas based arrancar for example.

Eventually, after it gets powerful enough a Hollow will become a Menos, the first in the class of menos is the Gillian, then when it gets powerful enough it will become an Adjuchas, then as before, it will become a Vasto Lorde.

The Hougouku forcibly turns Menos level hollows into arrancar and they normally are stronger than naturally occurring arrancars. Aizen would turn an Adjuchas or a VL into an Arrancar, THEN he would appoint it a rank within the Espada based on its fighting ability.

TokyoRacer

10-17-2008, 11:15 AM

Well my point was the vast power level at arrancarized Vastolorde would possess given that it's be stated that a Vastolorde is strong if not stronger then a captain level shinigami. Arrancarizing one would give it a tremendous amount of power.

pumpkin13

10-17-2008, 11:23 AM

Well again there's several views on this... theres those that believe the current top three are VL and are roughly the same level as Unohana/Ukitake/Shunsui/Yama-iji. The arguement for this would be that within the Gotei 13 captains, there's quite a degree of difference in power level from the weakest (generally considered to be Hitsuguya) to the strongest (Yama-iji). Its not entirely implausable for Hitsuguya to be referring to a captain of his own level when referrencing how the strength of a VL compared. Thus arrancarizing a VL would throw it up the levels to put it on a par with some of the top big hitters (zaraki i wouldn't generally considor a "big hitter").

However there are some that believe the difference in power is even more radical, an arrancar VL easily on a par with the top four big hitters, hence justifying the introduction of Zero Division whom (one would hope) are all bitching and would provide a reasonable challange to the arrancar.

Personally i would like to see the aforementioned currently unintroduced group of VL arrancars make it into the Kings Dimension eventually and have to take on the dudes at Zero Division (WANNA KNOW MORE ABOUT HIKIFUNE!!!!!)

TokyoRacer

10-17-2008, 11:30 AM

It's plausible. Perhaps Aizen has able to gather a few Vastolorde's. Aizen knew right off the bat that the Kurakara town that he was in was a fake. It's possible that he sent those Vastolorde's into Soul Society to do the dirty work for him and its there that the Vastolorde's meet the Royal Guard (Division Zero). Now that would be a really good twist and very interesting.

But I think if a group of Vastolorde's do show up, then that most likely means that the Vaizard will fight on the side of Soul Society.

pumpkin13

10-17-2008, 11:44 AM

Im not so sure... Aizen made the vaizards what they are, essentially they have their power because of both Aizen and Urahara, Aizen forcing it upon them and Urahara saving them. But anyway there's plenty of threads discussing them elsewhere.

TokyoRacer

10-17-2008, 11:49 AM

Well, lets just say a group of Vastolorde's show up and the Vaizard side with Aizen...wouldn't that extremely outnumber the forces of Soul Society?

Peasin

10-17-2008, 11:57 AM

I can't imagine that Soul Society could even fight back against a group consisting of the 3 traitors, the top three espadas and the vizards. No way in hell they could beat them. Especially since the vizards were captains and lieutenants at the same time as Ukitake and Shunsui (who people are arguing are beastly primarily because of the amount of time they have been captains). This is not even factoring in just how powerful Gin, Tousen and Aizen may have become.

It would be a 40 pound box of rape overnight shipped right to Soul Society.

Intense

10-17-2008, 12:19 PM

Especially since the vizards were captains and lieutenants at the same time as Ukitake and Shunsui (who people are arguing are beastly primarily because of the amount of time they have been captains

Vizards have been captain for 100 years, Shunsui&Ukitake circa 2000. And it's not only their age, they were praised by Yamamoto himself for their abilities. And I'm aware this discussion belongs in another thread, just pointing out.

pumpkin13

10-17-2008, 12:28 PM

+ Zero division? A group of at least ten (seeing as theres normally 20 seated officers in a division + the unseated plebs i personally think theres going to be 20 of them) bitching captains, god knows what kind of abilities they have.

Either way the vaizards are going to be instrumental in doing something lol.

@ intense: and Unohana followed shortly after, and Shun/Uki refer to her as senpai possibly indicating she was their teacher.

Peasin

10-17-2008, 01:57 PM

Vizards have been captain for 100 years, Shunsui&Ukitake circa 2000. And it's not only their age, they were praised by Yamamoto himself for their abilities. And I'm aware this discussion belongs in another thread, just pointing out.

Ok, my mistake. thanks for clearing that up.

Lucky

10-17-2008, 04:19 PM

Well my point was the vast power level at arrancarized Vastolorde would possess given that it's be stated that a Vastolorde is strong if not stronger then a captain level shinigami. Arrancarizing one would give it a tremendous amount of power.

I'm in agreement with that.

I have always looked at Arrancarization (making up words here...) as being sort of like a reverse of Hollowfication, which, essentially it is. What I mean is the power level aspect could be quite similar, or do you all think an Adjucas for example made by the Hogyokou is more powerful than a Shinigami who has been "Vizored"? I'd say it's a way to draw a bit more power. I mean, look at Grimmjow. He would have certainally been a tough cookie as just an Adjucas-class hollow, but once he came in contact with the Hogyokou his power was pretty obviously implied to have improved by leaps and bounds. Moreso than Hollowfication though? I'd say in his case, yes, although it's simply speculation.

pumpkin13

10-17-2008, 04:36 PM

I also agree that there is likely to be (and implied within the manga) a vast improvement in power, i'd put a VL arrancar on a par with a mid tier captain in bankai with a vaizard mask. I think.

TokyoRacer

10-17-2008, 05:16 PM

Well think about that one for a second, pumpkin13. Hitsguaya seemed fairly confident that if 10 vastolorde's were to attack Soul Society all together...it would mark the end of Soul Society. Now, there are 13 captain's, and 13 lieutenants to defend soul society...yet Hitsugaya seemed certain that despite this defense, Soul Society soul fall at the hands of 10 Vastolorde's...

This tells me they are extremely powerful already. If you arrancarize them...we're talking power beyond what we could imagine.

Lnrd

10-18-2008, 04:00 AM

Well think about that one for a second, pumpkin13. Hitsguaya seemed fairly confident that if 10 vastolorde's were to attack Soul Society all together...it would mark the end of Soul Society. Now, there are 13 captain's, and 13 lieutenants to defend soul society...yet Hitsugaya seemed certain that despite this defense, Soul Society soul fall at the hands of 10 Vastolorde's...

This tells me they are extremely powerful already. If you arrancarize them...we're talking power beyond what we could imagine.

I think Toshiro took into consideration Gotei's present state and all of SS forces. There is a 99% likelyhood that he included Kidou Corps into the equation.

Zangetsu-663

10-18-2008, 04:06 AM

I think my expectation of VLs are very high. I want a VL Arrancar to be stronger than Ukitake and Shunsui, coz' I like it when old veterans get pwned by Powerful Noobs(Like in the World Wrestling Entertainment).

Lnrd

10-18-2008, 04:32 AM

I think my expectation of VLs are very high. I want a VL Arrancar to be stronger than Ukitake and Shunsui, coz' I like it when old veterans get pwned by Powerful Noobs(Like in the World Wrestling Entertainment).

I guess mine are even higher, because I basicly see it like this.

High Level Vaizard ------------ High VL Arrancar
Low High Tier Vaizard----------Mid VL Arrancar
High Level Shinigami------------Low Tier VL Arrancar
Low- High Tier Captain---------High Tier Adjuchas Arrancar
Mid-Tier Captain---------------Mid Tier Adjuchas Arrancar

Intense

10-18-2008, 04:54 AM

Depends on which captain Hitsu was using as benchmark when making his statement so who knows.

But IMO, if Ulquiorra is a Vasto and loses to Ichigo this would make them a lot less fearsome.

@Lnrd: I know everyone's free to speculate whatever the hell they want but low level Vizard > high tier shinigami? Hyiori > Yama/Shun/Uki?

Lnrd

10-18-2008, 05:02 AM

Depends on which captain Hitsu was using as benchmark when making his statement so who knows.

But IMO, if Ulquiorra is a Vasto and loses to Ichigo this would make them a lot less fearsome.

@Lnrd: I know everyone's free to speculate whatever the hell they want but low level Vizard > high tier shinigami? Hyiori > Yama/Shun/Uki?

No, I wrote low-high level Vaizard (Shinji, Kensei, Love) > Yama/Shun/Uki.

I suspect the former VCs to be at Low- High Tier Captain level. And, maybe Hachi and Lisa being close to or stronger than Uki/Shunsui.

P.S. I know it's confusing. What I mean by low-high tier... is the level in between the high tier and mid tier. Some call it upper-mid tier, I usually call it low-high tier.

pumpkin13

10-18-2008, 06:41 AM

Well think about that one for a second, pumpkin13. Hitsguaya seemed fairly confident that if 10 vastolorde's were to attack Soul Society all together...it would mark the end of Soul Society. Now, there are 13 captain's, and 13 lieutenants to defend soul society...yet Hitsugaya seemed certain that despite this defense, Soul Society soul fall at the hands of 10 Vastolorde's...

This tells me they are extremely powerful already. If you arrancarize them...we're talking power beyond what we could imagine.

As Lnrd says, Toushiro is highly likely taking into account SS weakened state, three captains down, especially Aizen who before his fall was honoured quite highly or at least well respected.

As for the second part, I would put that previous nameless mid tier captain in bankai with vaizard mask substantially higher than Ukitake/Shunsui... I'm not entirely sure what your point with reference to my post is, but i think your trying to argue something that i'm pretty much already in agreeance with.

Or at least, I WANT them to be insanely uber powerful, i think its more likely however that the VL arrancars (if there ISNT a second group and literally the top 3/4 is all there is) are probably on a par with Yama-iji (i think Ukitake and Shunsui may have to try and double team stark).

Stri

10-18-2008, 01:05 PM

I don't exactly know where to place the Vizards, considering the fact Shinji(more than likely the strongest vizard) needed to use a mask on the 6th espada. Not accounting the fact GJ previously took multiple GT's from Ichigo and had minus an entire arm.

It just doesn't seem that impressive to me when in comparison to Aizen dropping GJ with mere reiatsu effortlessly, or Yama-ji who took on two high-tier shinigami at the same time, and didn't obtain a single scratch or even showed a sign of sweat.

We know shinji can't put down GJ with only reiatsu. Also do people think he could take Shunsui and Ukitake simultaneously? We've yet to precisely know if he can beat either 1on1, so a 2 on 1? Without a scratch? No, just no.

So when gauging their power, it most certainly depends on exactly who you are using as a measuring tool. Would I put some of the vizards in the high-tier category, of course. At Aizen or Yama-ji's level, absolutely not.

Basing it off this, I wouldn't put the Vaizard group as an entire whole, on par with the VL's, considering the power gap between the vizard that seems evident, from the flashbacks, and what their potentially strongest member has shown so far.

TokyoRacer

10-18-2008, 01:13 PM

I really question as to weather or not Ulquiorra, simply because in the manga after Ulquiorra had already been shown numerous times, Aizen implied that he had yet to locate any of the the vastolorde's. This would imply that Ulquiorra is not a vastolorde.

Intense

10-18-2008, 01:17 PM

Aizen said he wanted to perfect the Espada by gathering Vastos, that in no way implies he doesn't have any.

Stri

10-18-2008, 01:19 PM

Many people tend to believe Ulqui's is VL, simply based off a silhouette. And how they conveniently showed Ulquiorra walking while they were discussing the VL's. I myself can vouch from this, since I do think he's a VL from that very reason. But I won't immediately assume it.

pumpkin13

10-18-2008, 05:38 PM

Shinji didn't HAVE to use his mask on GJ, he went straight to it, skipping out the bankai first. Normally Ichigo would go bankai THEN mask. And GJ really wasn't giving him any trouble at all, Shinji was toying with him until Tousen pulled GJ out. However like stri said, its well worth taking into account GJs weakened state.

Its also a likely suggestion that he's one of the stronger ones but Love, Rose or Murugama could be more powerful, so i wouldnt definitively list him as the strongest.

Fatstogey

10-18-2008, 06:07 PM

Shinji didn't HAVE to use his mask on GJ, he went straight to it, skipping out the bankai first. Normally Ichigo would go bankai THEN mask. And GJ really wasn't giving him any trouble at all, Shinji was toying with him until Tousen pulled GJ out. However like stri said, its well worth taking into account GJs weakened state.

Its also a likely suggestion that he's one of the stronger ones but Love, Rose or Murugama could be more powerful, so i wouldnt definitively list him as the strongest.

Shinji is hte unofficial leader. He was also a captain longer than the others. I would say he is the most powerful. he said he wasnt holding back but he was. Cause he wasnt even outta breathe from that cero.

And Ulqiorra grabbed him. b Tousne was before.

pumpkin13

10-18-2008, 06:11 PM

Thankee, stand corrected, it was Ulquiorra. Agreed that he was holding back.

I thought that Shinji said he was the "scout" for the Vizard group, i didn't read anything about him officially or unoficially being the leader. And were we given times regarding to Love, Shinji and Murugama as to how long each had been captain? I know Rose was a recently appointed one but don't recall any times for Love or Kensei...

UlquiorraKuchiki

10-18-2008, 10:00 PM

Aizen said he wanted to perfect the Espada by gathering Vastos, that in no way implies he doesn't have any.

Here's the link to the page you're referring to:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-213-page-19.html
I think it would be safe to assume that this means there are already VL in the espada ranks, as at the current time the espada are not "perfected". A bit off the topic, I find it odd that here Aizen states Grimmjow's fraccion were of gillian class, yet later on in the flashback of when Grimmjow meets them, they're described or at least portrayed to be adjuchas.

Mcloud

10-19-2008, 01:25 AM

Thankee, stand corrected, it was Ulquiorra. Agreed that he was holding back.

I thought that Shinji said he was the "scout" for the Vizard group, i didn't read anything about him officially or unoficially being the leader. And were we given times regarding to Love, Shinji and Murugama as to how long each had been captain? I know Rose was a recently appointed one but don't recall any times for Love or Kensei...

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-328-page-21.html
It doesn't look to me that he's a scout. When he mentioned "Aizen" all vaizards were shown except one - Shinji(It's like all of his subordinates were shown) and when someone said "Let's Go"(I personally think it was Shinji) he is shown in the middle like a leader. He's acting like one also, besides he got most attention by Kubo on TBP. That's my two cents anyway.

Sorry for going off topic in this thread. I personally believe that Ulqie is a VL. Those four top espadas are acting too calm compared to other six(acting tough, arrogant, pretending to be strongest etc.).

pumpkin13

10-19-2008, 04:23 AM

Im quite certain he says it when he's first introduced to Ichigo and wearing that god aweful tie and cap. Maybe it was only anime, not in the manga i dunno. One could argue that Shinji's been most focused on because of his previous proximity to Aizen as his Captain and superior, and the only one shown so far to (seemingly) be able to penetrate Aizens illusion ability. I.e. he has the biggest bone to pick.

Mcloud

10-19-2008, 04:35 AM

Is it just me or stark in this pic looks so much alike to ulqiora? I mean just look at stark's mask, as I remember it is on his neck, but here it looks like it's on his half head like ulqiora's! He even has his one hand in his pocket as Ulqi! Is it drawing mistake or I'm seeing things? :wacko:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/328/21-22/

Edited:
yar look at another pic of stark and it shows that his suit is different
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/329/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/329/15/

pumpkin13

10-19-2008, 04:38 AM

Agreed at the similarity, but its mostly just to do with body position, Starks just lazy and nonchalent, Ulquiorra is emo and wants to keep himself to himself.

Mcloud

10-19-2008, 04:50 AM

but as wee see stark's suit has no pockets on that side =)

pumpkin13

10-19-2008, 05:46 AM

they're hakama of a sorts, and hakama generally tend to have the little triangular gaps in the sides at the hips where they come up to meat the belt at the front and the back but not the sides, so he could have his hand in there.

Mcloud

10-19-2008, 06:41 AM

what about the mask then? half of stark's head is covered with mask like Ulqie's

pumpkin13

10-19-2008, 12:31 PM

fraid i don't see that on any of them. In the last page (ie the link u posted first) the half of his head that would have been covered by an ulqui like mask is just about cut off the page, on top of thats its really small, but fraid i can't see anything.

Stri

10-19-2008, 01:16 PM

I don't see any mask on his head either.

UlquiorraKuchiki

10-20-2008, 02:54 AM

Nah all I see is where the page cuts half his head off. As for his clothing changing, it's not really. Think about it, if he had his hand in his left pocket in the shorts underneath, then he would've had to pull back the jacket/coat, which makes it look more like Ulquiorra's.

Mcloud

10-20-2008, 08:41 AM

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/328/21-22/

open your eyes guys, Kubo or whoever draws that doesn't make such drawing mistakes as that big white spot on stark's head.

IronFrozen

10-20-2008, 09:04 AM

euuh, i think that the big white spot is just his face :x, in the middle there's his noes, and a part of his eyes so..

Lucky

10-20-2008, 09:11 AM

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/328/21-22/

open your eyes guys, Kubo or whoever draws that doesn't make such drawing mistakes as that big white spot on stark's head.

What are you talking about? What "big white spot" and why would it be significant anyway?

pumpkin13

10-20-2008, 10:07 AM

You can't even see his forehead, the top of the frame cuts off the corner of his head from just leaving his right eye in view down to just above his jaw line diagonally....

Stri

10-20-2008, 10:08 AM

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/328/21-22/

open your eyes guys, Kubo or whoever draws that doesn't make such drawing mistakes as that big white spot on stark's head.

That's an entire face. Not a mask.

Mcloud

10-20-2008, 10:29 AM

ok guys my bad, my imagination misled me a bit, now after staring at it for several minutes I finally see it clearly that it's his face, so sorry for the wrong notice :/

E

10-20-2008, 03:33 PM

does anybody else think that all these fights are bait for the real vasto lordes to show up? http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l161/E2718/emotawesomepm9.gif

what?i can has imagination http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l161/E2718/hm.png

pumpkin13

10-20-2008, 03:57 PM

Does anybody see E's avatar and think OMG COLD SHOWER?

Agreed E, think these are building up to some epic introductions and epic fights.

Bleachjunkie

10-21-2008, 08:51 AM

I'm new to the boards but not new to Bleachexile. The images I'm about to post I have not found on the Manga Reader. These are images from the opening of episode 8.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t243/lhplem/threeVL.jpg

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t243/lhplem/oneVL.jpg

3 Vasto Lordes maybe?

Nocturne' Ichigo

10-21-2008, 09:18 AM

I'm new to the boards but not new to Bleachexile. The images I'm about to post I have not found on the Manga Reader. These are images from the opening of episode 8.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t243/lhplem/threeVL.jpg

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t243/lhplem/oneVL.jpg

3 Vasto Lordes maybe?

Its possible but we won't know until Aizen reveals it

pumpkin13

10-21-2008, 09:39 AM

Not sure about the second one... but nice catch with the first... VERY NICE catch. More evidence to show that KT has known where he's been going with the series from the very start? Its already all planned out methinks...Certainly, these guys are wearing capes, havent seen anything like that yet... Reminds me of the four figures of Godhead from Berserk...

Sonicom

10-21-2008, 10:12 AM

I had noticed that already, in fact yesterday I was watching that episode just to know if thoses hollow could be Barragan, Haribell or Stark (for the ranking thread but I found another details for it).
But I don't know if there are VL or former arrancar ?

JA-NEE
:blink:

Intense

10-21-2008, 10:19 AM

@Bleachjunkie: Would ya have manga scans of that pic? If it isn't in the manga, it's just BS.

Sonicom

10-21-2008, 10:47 AM

Actually that scene is not in the manga but Kubo work a lot on the anime version too.
Just take the Menos Grande forest filler, Kubo had not enought time and space to add it in the manga, so he did it in the anime and complete his vision of the HM.
Plus in some Bleach games we can see, some zampa/shikai and their abilities (Hisagi for example) before we see it in the manga.
But yeah there is no reference of those characters in the manga.

JA-NEE
:blink:

Bleachjunkie

10-21-2008, 11:52 AM

@Bleachjunkie: Would ya have manga scans of that pic? If it isn't in the manga, it's just BS.

I have been looking for awhile now and I can't seem to find it. Just thought it was interesting. :smile:

Fatstogey

10-21-2008, 11:57 AM

does anybody else think that all these fights are bait for the real vasto lordes to show up? http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l161/E2718/emotawesomepm9.gif

what?i can has imagination http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l161/E2718/hm.png

Yea idk. The hollow who are currently fighting dont seem to have much information of the powerlevel of their opponents. Which seems odd to me. Because if the leaders of their fraccion were VL then Aizen would have surely told them what powers they may be facing. But they seem not to know. So they seem to me to still be disposable pawns. The only pieces that dont fit for me are Stark Halibel and Ulqiorra. Because even Barragon appears to be just as much of a fool as everyone else. The other three seem to be a lil smarter.

In my mind i dont beleive the numbering system of the espada. Im not sure but i do think it possible Aizen has miss numbered some people to throw someone off.

pumpkin13

10-21-2008, 12:04 PM

Mmm yeah perhaps with the numbering system. Personally for me, Zommari's ability was just too hax for him to only be seven. In theory, from what we've seen and has been stated in the manga, as soon as he's released, if the opponent doesn't have any kind of shield fast enough against his eyes, they're fucked. Alot of the captains and most of the rest of the espada certainly i'd put under that category...

Bleachjunkie

10-21-2008, 12:36 PM

I don't want to get too deep here but there are a couple of things that don't make since.

The Espada all but Uliq seem to look down on Aizen even after he made them so powerful. This might have something to do with why they seem so disorganized and have no idea what is going on with their opposition. This also makes me feel like Aizen and the other two have not yet got hollow powers.

It really gives me the feeling that this war is just starting.

Oh_Word_Ichigo

10-23-2008, 07:08 AM

Just starting a new idea w/ this Vasto Lorde thread...I've seen many say they believe the top 4 are Vasto Lorde but I really don't think Ulquorria is. Its a vague reason, but I find it hard to believe that his release would look humanoid and Halibel, Stark, and Barragan have a better shot @ looking very much more human than Ulquorria after their initial releases.

If you're wondering why i'm saying this, characteristics of a Vasto Lorde is that they look very human-esque. The Espada are still Arrancars, hollows w/ zanpaktous (shinigami powers) and their current forms before releasing give them a humanoid appearance as well. Now, when they release it was said i can't remember by who, but it makes sense that when they do their resurreccion (release) they are showing their true form thus meaning how they really appear as a hollow...well to a certain extent at least. Thus giving them their original abilities back, increase in strength, and so forth. So wouldn't you think their original form as a hollow is where the characteristic takes place based on the other releases we have seen and the class those arrancar were? IMO based on the arrancars we have seen release thus far, none of them were humanoid to begin with the slightest bit in comparision to Stark, Halibel, and Barragan. Ulquorria to me fits that same description as to not appear as human as Stark, Halibel, and Barragan in appearance and won't once he releases either.

Only reason I have, which is another vague one, is why I think Ulquorria just maybe a VL is because for story purposes I don't think it would be wise for Kubo to have Ichigo fight another Adjuchas and not at least the lowest level VL in the Espada ranks. But based on current facts we know of the VL, I'm led to think otherwise. Ichigo's obv. my favorite character so I'm hoping Ulquorria is a VL and it doesn't further weaken Ichigo's status as one of the most powerful characters in the story which many of you are quick to try and prove to be false.

Just my opinion...thoughs?

manymanymomok

10-23-2008, 11:04 AM

My thoughts = i dont understand you....characteristics of a Vasto Lorde is that they look very human-esque.....when they release it was said i can't remember by who, but it makes sense that when they do their resurreccion (release) they are showing their true form thus meaning how they really appear as a hollow yea true. IMO based on the arrancars we have seen release thus far, none of them were humanoid to begin with the slightest bit in comparision to Stark, Halibel, and Barragan and so.. Ulq Stark Halibel and Barragan all have not released. What do you even have to compare them against?

We don't really know Ulquiorra's strength anyway, only that he's number 4, and a blast the power of Yammi's cero is nothing to him cos he can 'chop' it easily like cardboard/paper.

shinedownhero

10-23-2008, 04:34 PM

here's a different thing for people to discuss, what if the vaizard are vasto lords, this is based off of some really vague ideas, but if they are, that's 8, i'm sure aizen is at that power range, which makes 9, and shinji has been after ichigo like hell so if ichigo steps that way, that's the 10, so i know it's out there but let's see if it has some merit

also i agree with what some of the people here are saying, that the vaizard are not on soul society's side, but i don't think they'll join completely with aizen, i think they'll pick and choose who they like, and i think their purpose is to be that kind of a wild card.

TokyoRacer

10-23-2008, 09:36 PM

How the hell can the Vaizard's be vasto lorde's? That makes absolutely no sense. All the Vaizard's are former shinigami and most of their backstory has been explained. The idea that they are vasto lorde's is completely dumbfounded.

Oh_Word_Ichigo

10-24-2008, 05:27 AM

and so.. Ulq Stark Halibel and Barragan all have not released. What do you even have to compare them against?

What I was saying there was when you look at the Fraccion and Espada we've seen before they have released, they didn't look humanoid to begin with so why would they once they show their true form after the release? Basically, their unreleased state didn't look humanoid but yet to me Stark, Halibel, and Barragan look like they could pass as Shinigami. They actually look human in comparision to Ulquiorra who looks like this:

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0WTefPNvwFJXPgAv02jzbkF/SIG=12tbad6is/EXP=1224937805/**http%3A//i46.photobucket.com/albums/f125/Slei/random/4_Espada_Ulquiorra.jpg (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0WTefPNvwFJXPgAv02jzbkF/SIG=12tbad6is/EXP=1224937805/**http%3A//i46.photobucket.com/albums/f125/Slei/random/4_Espada_Ulquiorra.jpg)

I'm just sayin, that doesn't look humanoid to me in the least bit except for his body frame especially when you look at the top 3 who seem more like they'd be VL. Grimmjow's body frame was similar to Ulquiorra but as you can see...Grimmjow was an Adjuchas. But again, its just a vague idea of mine but I also said Ulquiorra very well could be a VL for story purposes and will still appear humanoid after his release.

We don't really know Ulquiorra's strength anyway, only that he's number 4, and a blast the power of Yammi's cero is nothing to him cos he can 'chop' it easily like cardboard/paper.

That's true, but this is why its just a speculation to Ulquiorra's status as either a Vasto Lorde or the strongest Adjuchas. His power level had nothing to do w/ my speculation I was going off the physical characteristics of a Vasto Lorde to make a point since we obviously have not seen a VL in action that we officially know of to measure the difference.

manymanymomok

10-24-2008, 09:51 AM

I see what you mean. But we've been told at least for sure that only the hollow VL will look humanoid. This doesn't really have any implications on an arrancar's unreleased state. If you wish to put it that way, then Szayel Apporo would also be a VL because of his outlook. So does Nel.

Also, the vaizards can NEVER be VLs thats just a wild crazy theory that holds no water.

Oh_Word_Ichigo

10-24-2008, 11:10 AM

Well, the reason why i wouldn't consider them to be as such...especially Nell is the Pink and Green hair each of them have lol. I'm just being nit picky and extremely vague now but we'll see. I was just mainly trying to stir up some convo about Ulquiorra being a VL or not. But again, for story purposes I believe he actually is one just the weakest out of the Espada.

Bleachjunkie

10-24-2008, 11:30 AM

If you're wondering why i'm saying this, characteristics of a Vasto Lorde is that they look very human-esque. The Espada are still Arrancars, hollows w/ zanpaktous (shinigami powers) and their current forms before releasing give them a humanoid appearance as well. Now, when they release it was said i can't remember by who, but it makes sense that when they do their resurreccion (release) they are showing their true form thus meaning how they really appear as a hollow...well to a certain extent at least. Thus giving them their original abilities back, increase in strength, and so forth.

Wouldn't the release make their "powers/abilities" more powerful? In a way lets say a mix of bankai and a "VL" release. So instead of a human form we might seen a EXTREMELY large release of their sword not just effecting their body possible a primal creature like Komamura's release.

Oh_Word_Ichigo

10-24-2008, 01:01 PM

I'm not really following, are you saying that a VL release is in comparision to a shinigami's bankai in physical appearance?

Yayap

10-24-2008, 03:01 PM

I think he's saying that there will be a (slight) change to the arrancar's appearance, but they keep the sword after releasing, but the sword changes, like Noitra or Neliel. At least that's what I think he meant

Oh_Word_Ichigo

10-24-2008, 03:29 PM

I think I get what you and bleach junkie are now saying...cause Nnoitra did keep his weapons and Nel also gained one. I didn't really think about that too much. There could be bit of truth to that...despite the fact Nnoitra had what 4 arms and Nel turned into one of those Centuar horse things which are so far from human BUT i digress, interesting point.

Bleachjunkie

10-24-2008, 09:55 PM

Yes in a round about way we are all on the same page. Just saying that since they are a "captain level" hollow lets say. Maybe their release will be different from what we have seen so far.

UlquiorraKuchiki

10-25-2008, 03:49 AM

I think the VL's releases will make them look like some type of a warrior in armour. I've said before that I believe Ulquiorra's release will cause him to look like a samurai. Something about that helmet reminds me of the samurai's helmets. Also, the word samurai means "to serve" which is something Ulquiorra does very well. This type of change could be quite easily applied to the other 3 espada as well, such as Barragan. His release form may very well make him look like some type of medieval king, and I can see Halibel's release looking somewhat like a ninja. Stark's is the only one I haven't got much of an idea of though since the remains of his mask don't give away much.

Shinigami383

10-31-2008, 06:36 PM

Well, hopefully we'll get to see which (if any) of the Espada are actual Vasto Lordes soon. I still think it's the top 4, but we shall see...
The only VL in the espada is #1 the chick with half her face covered. Trust me on this one it takes so much to reach VL level Grimmjow didn't even achieve it and most of the espada were created by aizen with the "cube".

Lnrd

10-31-2008, 07:32 PM

^ What makes you think Halibel is #1 and a VL?

Shinigami383

10-31-2008, 09:03 PM

^ What makes you think Halibel is #1 and a VL?
The reason why i think she's #1 is more a gut feeling than anything. Also when she's talking to those other arrancar when grimmjow and ichigo are going at it also makes me think that she's the ultimate evolution of hollow. I have no proof but i'm pretty sure that the other espada besides Nell "#3", Grimmjow "#6", Halibel "#1?", and Ulquiorra "#4" were created by the "cube" that Aizen hid in Rukia's gigai. Therefore the rest are natural hollow turned arrancar and Halibel is espada #1. Of course this is just my opinion and there is a good chance that i'm way off. I also believe that Urahara will be the one to eventually defeat Aizen.

Lucky

10-31-2008, 09:25 PM

The reason why i think she's #1 is more a gut feeling than anything. Also when she's talking to those other arrancar when grimmjow and ichigo are going at it also makes me think that she's the ultimate evolution of hollow. I have no proof but i'm pretty sure that the other espada besides Nell "#3", Grimmjow "#6", Halibel "#1?", and Ulquiorra "#4" were created by the "cube" that Aizen hid in Rukia's gigai. Therefore the rest are natural hollow turned arrancar and Halibel is espada #1. Of course this is just my opinion and there is a good chance that i'm way off. I also believe that Urahara will be the one to eventually defeat Aizen.

I think I'd love it more than anyone if Halibel-sama was the Primera Espada, and the only current VL at that. As for which Espada/Arrancar were created with the Hougykou "cube" you refer to, we can only assume that all/most of the current Espada were made that way due to Dondonii's comment and basically the reason for existence of the Privaron Espada. Of course we only see that creation actually occur with Wonderwice, and all we really know about him is that his power is "Espada level". When watching Ichigo and Grimmjow fight, the Arrancar that Halibel was with were indeed her Fraccion, so that may be the reason it appears she is sort of 'teaching' them as she is speaking. If she is indeed the first, AND a Vasto Lorde, all I can say is poor Hitsugaya...

Shinigami383

10-31-2008, 09:31 PM

I think I'd love it more than anyone if Halibel-sama was the Primera Espada, and the only current VL at that. As for which Espada/Arrancar were created with the Hougykou "cube" you refer to, we can only assume that all/most of the current Espada were made that way due to Dondonii's comment and basically the reason for existence of the Privaron Espada. Of course we only see that creation actually occur with Wonderwice, and all we really know about him is that his power is "Espada level". When watching Ichigo and Grimmjow fight, the Arrancar that Halibel was with were indeed her Fraccion, so that may be the reason it appears she is sort of 'teaching' them as she is speaking. If she is indeed the first, AND a Vasto Lorde, all I can say is poor Hitsugaya...
I see you read the manga...I agree that hitsugaya has his hands full but i'm not enitirely convinced that the espada are actually down with Aizen's plan to use the King's Key and rule soul society. Perhaps some of the other espada defy Aizen and foil his plans including Halibel. What do you think?

pumpkin13

10-31-2008, 09:55 PM

Possible, would be interesting. I still think Aizen has some suped up VL arrancar (maybe three to five?) waiting in the wings and I also believe we will see Gin betray Aizen at some point, before all is said and done.

Every Espada has Fraccion.

Zommari was never indicated to have Fraccion and neither was Arroniero, nor Yammi or even Ulquiorra for that matter.

TheLegend/MVP

11-01-2008, 02:56 AM

Zommari was never indicated to have Fraccion and neither was Arroniero, nor Yammi or even Ulquiorra for that matter.

i think Yammi is Ulquiorra fraccion because from what we me Espada can have fraccion of any1 below thier rank ... might also be other espada's but i am not on that part ...

Intense

11-01-2008, 03:50 AM

Espada can't be fraccion of another Espada -__-

king Outlaw

11-01-2008, 04:32 AM

Espada can't be fraccion of another Espada -__-

Unless that espada is Aizen's number 1 ass kisser.

Can someone tell me why Lilinette can't be considered a vasto? She may be a baby vasto but i think her chance at being one is just as big as ulquiorra.

Sonicom

11-01-2008, 04:41 AM

Can someone tell me why Lilinette can't be considered a vasto?
Technically anything in the manga show us that Lilinette isn't a VL but logically everything show that she wouldn't be one !:wacko:

JA-NEE
:blink:

king Outlaw

11-01-2008, 04:49 AM

Technically anything in the manga show us that Lilinette isn't a VL but logically everything show that she wouldn't be one !:wacko:

JA-NEE
:blink:

People brag about how ulquiorra match the description of a vasto lorde. Well so does Lilinette

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc77/kougahatake30/076ade4e.jpg

And WTF she has 2 hollow holes!

pumpkin13

11-01-2008, 04:57 AM

i think Yammi is Ulquiorra fraccion because from what we me Espada can have fraccion of any1 below thier rank ... might also be other espada's but i am not on that part ...

They can only choose Fraccion from The Numeros, numbers 11 and onwards. I believe this was explained by Shawlong when he and the rest of GJs lackeys turned up.

UlquiorraKuchiki

11-01-2008, 05:17 AM

People brag about how ulquiorra match the description of a vasto lorde. Well so does Lilinette

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc77/kougahatake30/076ade4e.jpg

And WTF she has 2 hollow holes!

I noticed also, but I don't think that her eye area is a hollow hole. I think it's just that the remains of her mask has shaded the area. Also, if you look at her head in comparison to the top of the vasto lorde's, she is missing the raised crest in the centre, something which Ulquiorra's half-helmet has. I just don't see how a vasto lorde arrancar could possibly be a fraccion. It wouldn't make sense because vasto lorde are the strongest form of hollow, so for an arrancarised one to not even be an espada is just plain silly.

Tank

11-01-2008, 07:27 AM

Unless that espada is Aizen's number 1 ass kisser.

No.

Can someone tell me why Lilinette can't be considered a vasto? She may be a baby vasto but i think her chance at being one is just as big as ulquiorra.

Because she's a fraccion. If you need the rest spelled out to you, please asphyxiate yourself.

People brag about how ulquiorra match the description of a vasto lorde. Well so does Lilinette

No, people bring up Ulquiorra because he fits the description much more than Lilinette does, and he's incredibly strong. Also, when Hitsugaya was explaining Vasto Lordes, it cut directly to Ulquiorra in the middle of the speech. I personally don't think he is a Vasto Lorde, but speculation that he is one does make sense.

Technically anything in the manga show us that Lilinette isn't a VL but logically everything show that she wouldn't be one

No, everything logically says that Lilinette is at best an Adjucha.

TheLegend/MVP

11-02-2008, 02:23 AM

arh i dont think thier unrelease size can tell what the really are but, but its just possible for her to be one of lower raistu maybe because like the Privaron espadas they should also be Vasto Lordo ...i think its mostly base on thier raistu then thier size ...

Sonicom

11-02-2008, 02:34 AM

No, everything logically says that Lilinette is at best an Adjucha.
It's what I was saying.

Bleachjunkie

11-04-2008, 02:10 PM

Ok I know I have kicked this horse before but I want to throw one more thing out there. Lets say VLs have higher set abilities compared to your Adj and Gillians. What if we see a release like....

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-149-page-2.html

...but for a VL? I guess it would be an Arrancarized/VL.

Shinigami383

11-04-2008, 07:00 PM

No.

Because she's a fraccion. If you need the rest spelled out to you, please asphyxiate yourself.

No, people bring up Ulquiorra because he fits the description much more than Lilinette does, and he's incredibly strong. Also, when Hitsugaya was explaining Vasto Lordes, it cut directly to Ulquiorra in the middle of the speech. I personally don't think he is a Vasto Lorde, but speculation that he is one does make sense.

No, everything logically says that Lilinette is at best an Adjucha.
What episode #/chapter did hitsugaya talk about VL's?

Tank

11-04-2008, 07:04 PM

I had the right chapter the other day, but I forgot it and don't feel like going to find it again. Though after reading it again it only jumped to Ulquiorra after Hitsugaya was done talking about 10 Vasto Lordes plus Aizen being able to doom Soul Society, where Aizen told Ulquiorra to share his knowledge with his 20 fellow Arrancar.

So there's something less for Vasto Lorde speculation on Ulquiorra, since it wasn't heavily implied like it was in the anime, so it doesn't count. Pretty sure Ulquiorra is an Adjucha.

Sonicom

11-04-2008, 10:38 PM

It's the chapter 197, begins page 14.

Bleachjunkie

11-05-2008, 06:51 AM

He clearly says "We've estimated that there are ten such individuals under Aizen's Command." It is a ref to the espada not to ten VLs. It could be possible that they are considering Arrancar to be VLs in the Bleach world.

The only real qualities we have to define a VL is no mask and takes on a human form. That is in theory a Arrancar/VL.

pumpkin13

11-05-2008, 08:17 AM

I think I'd love it more than anyone if Halibel-sama was the Primera Espada, and the only current VL at that. As for which Espada/Arrancar were created with the Hougykou "cube" you refer to, we can only assume that all/most of the current Espada were made that way due to Dondonii's comment and basically the reason for existence of the Privaron Espada. Of course we only see that creation actually occur with Wonderwice, and all we really know about him is that his power is "Espada level". When watching Ichigo and Grimmjow fight, the Arrancar that Halibel was with were indeed her Fraccion, so that may be the reason it appears she is sort of 'teaching' them as she is speaking. If she is indeed the first, AND a Vasto Lorde, all I can say is poor Hitsugaya...

Personally, we've only seen THREE privaron... so it would make sense to assume that seven of the Espada are original non-hougoukyu arrancar and that only three are Hougoukyu and replaced the those three making them privaron. If there are more Privaron... how come we havent seen them yet, saving them up for fight fodder later?

Bleachjunkie

11-05-2008, 08:30 AM

Personally, we've only seen THREE privaron... so it would make sense to assume that seven of the Espada are original non-hougoukyu arrancar and that only three are Hougoukyu and replaced the those three making them privaron. If there are more Privaron... how come we havent seen them yet, saving them up for fight fodder later?

Wouldn't all of your arrancar be from the Hougoukyu? I would presume it is possible since we have ichigo for example with hollow powers. But that would mean to get that powerful all of them would be VLs right?

pumpkin13

11-05-2008, 08:58 AM

I'm really not quite sure what you're trying to say here mate. Menos can arrancarize naturally, they don't have to be made using the Hougoukyu. Not sure what you mean by all of my arrancar being from hougoukyu, if they were using the logic im applying, then we would have 10 Privaron Espada as well as the 10 current Espada who would have all replaced the older and naturally Arrancarized Espada. And i don't really understand the last sentrance either im afraid...

Bleachjunkie

11-05-2008, 12:21 PM

Maybe I'm confused... When they have the hougoukyu used on them what is that called? I know it gives them Shimigami powers but I thought that was Arrancars because they are in human form and they are not VLs.

Baishin

11-05-2008, 04:29 PM

Using the Hyogyoku transforms any Hollow, Menos, adjuchas, or any other hollow variant into an arrancar. The only that differs is what type they are. The higher their tier the stronger they will be after using it. Just using it on a regular hollow wont transform them into a Vasto Lorde.

Guts

11-05-2008, 05:11 PM

The question that I'm attempting to answer is whether or not any of the current espada are vasto lordes. Please bear with me.

Hitsugaya said that the strength of a vasto lorde is above that of any captain. However, Hitsugaya is not a very reliable source. Due to his cocky nature and lack of exposure in battle with other captains, he probably forgets to consider that he is one of the weakest captains (sorry Hitsugaya fans, but he is). Therefore, a vasto lorde is probably as powerful, or slightly less powerful, than a captain such as byakuya, and moderately less powerful than a captain such as Shunsui. Hitsugaya was referring to non-arrancarized vasto lordes.

From here on, it gets tricky. We know that the top 3 esapada are about to fight some of the top captains. If a non-arrancarized vasto lorde is a bit less powerful than the top captains, then an arrancarized vasto lorde is significantly more powerful than captaisn such as ukitake or Shunsui. Therefore, if the espada that shunsui and ukitake are about to face off against are indeed vato lorde, then our friends from soul society don't stand much of a chance.

So this is what it all comes down to. Does kubo really want to kill off some of the captains? I highly doubt it. I also doubt that there will be something that stops the fight because this would upset many readers and I'm sure that Kubo is aware of this.

In conclusion, there are probably not any vasto lorde within the ranks of the espada so far.

ibelieveindevil

11-07-2008, 10:21 PM

for sure there will be VL, or else, why bother mentioning?!

should be the top 4 due to power difference.

Sayo

11-11-2008, 12:20 AM

Vasto Lorde's are hollows (not Arrancar, because they should have their full mask on still) that are as small as human and incredibly powerful. I guess the top Espada could be Vasto Lordes before they were turned into Arrancar, but if that's true they're undefeatable pretty much, especially if normal Vasto's are supposed to be stronger or at least on par with the captains. (During episode 114 of the anime Toushiro talking about the 3 subdivisions of menos, and when he was talking about Vasto Lordes it showed a darkened figure with two horns, it kinda resembled Ulquiorra, if he had a full mask, of course)

pumpkin13

11-11-2008, 04:17 PM

The question that I'm attempting to answer is whether or not any of the current espada are vasto lordes. Please bear with me.

Hitsugaya said that the strength of a vasto lorde is above that of any captain. However, Hitsugaya is not a very reliable source. Due to his cocky nature and lack of exposure in battle with other captains, he probably forgets to consider that he is one of the weakest captains (sorry Hitsugaya fans, but he is). Therefore, a vasto lorde is probably as powerful, or slightly less powerful, than a captain such as byakuya, and moderately less powerful than a captain such as Shunsui. Hitsugaya was referring to non-arrancarized vasto lordes.

From here on, it gets tricky. We know that the top 3 esapada are about to fight some of the top captains. If a non-arrancarized vasto lorde is a bit less powerful than the top captains, then an arrancarized vasto lorde is significantly more powerful than captaisn such as ukitake or Shunsui. Therefore, if the espada that shunsui and ukitake are about to face off against are indeed vato lorde, then our friends from soul society don't stand much of a chance.

So this is what it all comes down to. Does kubo really want to kill off some of the captains? I highly doubt it. I also doubt that there will be something that stops the fight because this would upset many readers and I'm sure that Kubo is aware of this.

In conclusion, there are probably not any vasto lorde within the ranks of the espada so far.

Shunsui is definately not weaker than Byakuya, he should be leagues above him in theory, seeing as he's been around since pretty much the start of the Gotei 13, from 2000 to 1900 years, Byakuya wasn't even a VC 100 years ago. That also applies for Ukitake, although he suffers slightly because of his Tuburculosis (how does a soul get TB? And why can't Unohana cure it? She can do pretty much everything else...). Generally speaking Yamamoto is the big cheese, with Shunsui and Ukitake sitting behind him, then Unohana, or perhaps on a par with them if your a fan of her or not (personally i hope she's WTFPWNAGE).

You'd be better off using Byakuya/Komamura/Zaraki where you put Shunsui and Ukitake in the second section of bold. I'd say an unarrancarrized VL should be on a par with Bya/Koma/Zaraki whilst a post hougoukyu/arrancarized (natural/unnatural?) would be around the level of Shunsui/Ukitake. This works out fairly nicely if Ulquiorra is indeed a VL, as it would make a pretty epic evenly matched battle between him and Unohana. I think the only thing even close to Yamamoto's level would be Vaizard Aizen. Just my personal opinions.

Maybe I'm confused... When they have the hougoukyu used on them what is that called? I know it gives them Shimigami powers but I thought that was Arrancars because they are in human form and they are not VLs.

If shinigami (such as in the TBTP arc) go through "Hollowification" which i think i DID read in one translation... then Hollow would go through the reverse, ie. "Shinigamification" as they gain some shinigami like powers, although most people just say "Arrancarisation".

Lnrd

11-13-2008, 03:20 PM

Shunsui is definately not weaker than Byakuya, he should be leagues above him in theory, seeing as he's been around since pretty much the start of the Gotei 13, from 2000 to 1900 years, Byakuya wasn't even a VC 100 years ago. That also applies for Ukitake, although he suffers slightly because of his Tuburculosis (how does a soul get TB? And why can't Unohana cure it? She can do pretty much everything else...). Generally speaking Yamamoto is the big cheese, with Shunsui and Ukitake sitting behind him, then Unohana, or perhaps on a par with them if your a fan of her or not (personally i hope she's WTFPWNAGE).

You'd be better off using Byakuya/Komamura/Zaraki where you put Shunsui and Ukitake in the second section of bold. I'd say an unarrancarrized VL should be on a par with Bya/Koma/Zaraki whilst a post hougoukyu/arrancarized (natural/unnatural?) would be around the level of Shunsui/Ukitake. This works out fairly nicely if Ulquiorra is indeed a VL, as it would make a pretty epic evenly matched battle between him and Unohana. I think the only thing even close to Yamamoto's level would be Vaizard Aizen. Just my personal opinion

I agree with the whole post except for the bolded part. A Vaizard Aizen should be able to stomp Yama. Especially seeing as how Regular Aizen should be a little weaker than Yama.

And, I'm sorry but until I'm shown otherwise...

Maxed VL hollow = Yamamoto

So a maxed VL arrancar should surpass Yama imho.

Guess you can say I'm not a big fan of shinigami, because I'm not.

Stri

11-13-2008, 03:49 PM

I still can't exactly see any of the mentioned espada to be on par with Yama-ji. At the very least, they need to have power superior to at least 2 higher-tier captains combined. Also including they have to be moderately above the two, considering Yama-ji can take on 2 with relative ease and come out untouched. I just don't see any of the former having such power.

Which is one of the other reasons I would consider Yama-ji to be reserved for Aizen, since he's the only one so far who I could picture at such a level. But even if he must do battle with one of the espada, I most certainly don't see him losing, although not saying the same for Shunsui or Ukitake.

I'm a bit interested to see if the greatest attacking zanpaktou lives up to its hype.

ibelieveindevil

11-13-2008, 10:01 PM

i would say that putting yamamoto and aizen out of discussion as their power are far too hard to gauge. yamamoto can take on shunsui and ukitake with ease, while aizen taken on ichigo, sajin, hitaguya and renji with ease, and unhurt. it is far too hard to gauge their power, especially aizen, whose zanpakotou can crate mirage and he is extremely skilled in kido, which allow him to cast lvl 90 kido that is capable of defeating captains without incarnation.

manymanymomok

11-13-2008, 11:26 PM

agreed. I think we have not even seen more than a fraction of their abilities; maybe except for Aizen, and all we've been shown is pure ownage on his part. I'm inclined to think that Yama and Aizen are up there in a similar league, perhaps Aizen was lower than Yama, higher/lower/on-par than Ukitake/Shunsui. But with Vizard powers he's bound to have gained a really significant boost. That's probably where Ichigo comes in because of his endless potential.

As for VLs, I'm personally inclined to believe that they are captain class hollows, probably subjected to a similar kind of range/scale as SS captains. Who knows, there might have been a Yama-equivalent in the VL class? You never know for sure... Add arrancarization to that equation and its pretty much going in the favour of Aizen's side, until the original Vizards turn up that is.

punni

11-14-2008, 12:56 AM

I have no problem thinking there is a VL as strong as Yamamoto. But that VL would never bow before Aizen, why should he? Why should an old and powerful conscious Hollow (lets say as old as Yama) follow a youngling Shinigami (possibly no more than 200 years old).