Hiasagi Shuuhei Vs. Shiba Kaien

[Baishin]

Location: Ichigo/Grimmjow Battlefield - 50 meters away from one another.

Just wondering what you guys think...

[Seraph]

Setting this fight while Kaien was still alive, Kaien stomps on him. Aside from that it's impossible to tell; he lost to a pair of incredibly cheap abilities used in succession.

[punni]

I assume this takes place about 20-30 years ago when Kaien was still alive and was VC and virtually acting captain for over 50 years.

In the language of the forum, I'd say it would be no fight but a stomprape.

[justin43]

In the language of the forum, I would say that Kaien rapes Hisagi.

[Baishin]

I meant Kaien from AA, not back then.

[Meta]

I meant Kaien from AA, not back then.

Care to explain that one?
AA as in Arraniero Alluluerie or w/e his name is?
Then he's not Kaein but an Adjucha lvl Espada with pretty much the same outcome

[Baishin]

People seem to think this is Kaien from when Hisagi was very young and he was still alive. I'm using the Kaien that was AA. Rukia even said that everything about him spelled Kaien, from his attitude down to his fighting. Care to explain how this would be a rape?

[punni]

AA assumed the form and the memories of Kaien but he was not Kaien. but since the title says Hisagi vs kaien and not hisagi vs AA, we take it as the former. FYI, i think due to his stupidity and lack of self-preservation AA could lose to anyone.

As for why Kaien vs Hisagi is a rape.
Quite simple. Kaien was a genius 110 years ago (went thru the 6-year curriculum in 2 [not sure about the source of that]). Assumed the VC position some time after that and was likely extensively trained by Ukitake for over 50 years.

While Hisagi is quite talented himself it took him over 50 years from the first appearance as a little boy to join the academy.

=
Kaien has more than 50 years experience on Hisagi.
He had a more powerful teacher.
He was more talented.

[Meta]

What punni said
Imagine Kaien as a Renji(or Ikkaku since he never actually showed us his true strength) put there the title of genius,go back some years (before dieing) and you have your reasons of a rape

[Beriadan]

Kaien would really take this with ease... If he wasn't so laid back and modest then he would have been a vice-captain for more than fifty years. His fighting spirit is pretty much undefeatable, even when he lost his zanpaku-to to the hollow, although that was after it killed his wife. But still, he had way more experience than Hisagi ever will.

[Ajpinecrest2]

Dude failed to kill a fodder hollow, Hisagi beat a fodder Arrancar, you can throw your fancy titles and experience around all you want but we all know none of that has or ever will mean shit in Bleach.

Fodder Arrancar > Fodder Hollow

Hisagi > Kaien.

[Intense]

Fodder hollow with one of the cheapest ability we've seen thus far. Hisagi wouldn't fare any better against that hollow so pretty moot point

[Ajpinecrest2]

You honestly think that Hisagi couldn't beat that Hollow without releasing?
You honestly think that Hisagi couldn't beat that Hollow with Kido alone?

[Intense]

Kaien was also goin' to defeat him with kido alone and look what happened http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-135-page-18.html

You shouldn't assume hollows are weaker than arrancar by default

[Ajpinecrest2]

Kaien can say whatever he wants, but the thing is, he was getting injured pretty badly, and the hollow even called Kaien on his bluff, the Hollow was pretty much uninjured.

Also, why on god's green earth would you assume that hollows aren't weaker than Arrancar?

It takes a ton of hollows to make a gillian which then gets formed into an arrancar, saying I shouldn't assume that an arrancar is automatically more powerful than a Menos makes sense (Not much, but it does) but saying that a fodder hollow might be stronger than an arrancar?

[justin43]

If Hisagi was fighting in the same circumstances as Kaien, this would happen to his zan.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-135-page-11.html

Kaien tried to destory the hollow with kido, but the hollow remains jump right into his body while Kaien thought it was dead. No, Hisagi would not have been able to defeat such a haxed hollow unreleased or with kido.

[Intense]

That hollow was one of Aizen's experiment. There's perhaps more to it then you seem to be thinking, which is why I said you shouldn't assume and there isn't any indication that hollow isn't a menos either.

[Ajpinecrest2]

No, Hisagi would not have been able to defeat such a haxed hollow unreleased or with kido.

What makes you think that?
The hollow needs to injure you before it can enter your body, Hisagi would shunpo and one-shot it.

That hollow was one of Aizen's experiment. There's perhaps more to it then you seem to be thinking, which is why I said you shouldn't assume and there isn't any indication that hollow isn't a menos either.

1. Burden of Proof - If you can't proof that Hollow is an Adjucha Menos, you are wrong.
2. Suspension of Disbelief - Until that Hollow does something that proves it is an Adjucha Menos, it is not.
3. AA stated that he ate the hollow not the Adjucha Level Menos

[Seraph]

Metastacia is *hardly* a "fodder Hollow". But for the arbitrary destruction of his zanpakutou, Kaien would have slaughtered it easily and probably without injury; hell, he was about to finish it off when Nejibana disintegrated. Then keep in mind that Kaien wasn't using kidou; he was literally tearing it apart with his bare hands, off course he was going to take injuries. It wasn't until he mentioned beating it with only kidou and hakuda that it entered his wound.

"Hisagi would one-shot it." Hah. Kaien *could* have one-shot it, but he didn't, just like you and I and everyone else knows that that sort of thing, though it *can* be done, isn't.

Like I said in the *first reply*, if this is set while Kaien is still alive (even just before his death, after Hisagi has graduated from the Academy), he takes the fight handily. If it's Kaien just before his death vs. Hisagi now, it's impossible to say because Kaien only lost due to Metastacia's arbitrary abilities and I doubt Hisagi would fare much, if any better.

And why are you talking about "Adjucha level menos"?

[smacharia8]

Not many people would be able to beat Metastacia without prior knowledge of his ability to destroy the zanpakuto belonging the first person who touches his tentacles every night (sounds nasty, I know :s). And once he explodes, it's endgame for you.

@Aj: Where is it said that Kaien has no shunpo, or that you need to be injured for Metastacia to control you?

@Seraph: I agree with your entire post.

[Ajpinecrest2]

Alright, let's ignore the fact that Kaien got slaughtered by a fodder hollow, not an Arrancar level Menos (Got that Intense?)

Kaien has absolutely nothing that means anything on Hisagi.

Kaien was called a genius?
Big deal, so was Hisagi.

Kaien has 50 years of experience?
When experience ever meant anything in Bleach this may become relevent.

Hisagi has demonstrated good usage of shunpo so there goes that advantage for Kaien.

And Hisagi has a long-range Zanpaktou, giving him the range advantage.

So, what exactly is the reason for Kaien winning?

@Smacharia
I never said anything about Kaien not knowing shunpo.
Meta enters through an injury, so obviously if you aren't injured he isn't going to be entering your body.

[smacharia8]

@Smacharia
I never said anything about Kaien not knowing shunpo.
Meta enters through an injury, so obviously if you aren't injured he isn't going to be entering your body.You said Hisagi can shunpo to evade the attack(s) that Kaien was faced with, which is not that different from saying he can't shunpo, at least not effectively. As for Metastacia's bonding ability, if it was limited to injuries alone then it would've been noted as such.

[Ajpinecrest2]

You said Hisagi can shunpo to evade the attack(s) that Kaien was faced with, which is not that different from saying he can't shunpo, at least not effectively. As for Metastacia's bonding ability, if it was limited to injuries alone then it would've been noted as such.

Well, then either CIS by Kaien, or Kaien simply can't shunpo since he didn't against Meta.

So what, Meta can just ram against the solid layers of skin until he magically enters your body?
I mean since they didn't say anything obviously it isn't limited to open wounds.
Are you familiar with the no-limits fallacy?

[Seraph]

He did enter through the wound on Kaien's arm, implying he needs an open wound to enter; still, that's not hard to do if you make the mistake of touching any of his tentacles.

Again, we *don't have enough information* to determine a winner. Hell, we've seen more of Hisagi than of Kaien himself ("his" only fight outside of Metastacia was as AA against Rukia).

Hisagi has a ranged shikai, but that doesn't mean he'll be able to get away from Kaien because we don't know how his speed compares to Kaien's; it's advantageous but we can't really say it's a determining factor. We don't know even know how strong his reiatsu is. We actually know very little about his real combat abilities because he's never had a chance to show them off for real. We know his style, and Nejibana, but that's about it.

Kaien did shunpou against Metastacia, read the "fight" again.

[Ajpinecrest2]

So let's just write this one off as a "We need more info on the dead fighter" and move on.

Must've missed the shunpo against Meta.

[Seraph]

It was the first thing he did after asking whether Metastacia ever felt regret.

[smacharia8]

Metastacia bonded through the back center of Kaien's left wrist, which had no blood stains as you would after an injury...nor were there any panels showing injury prior to the possession. Also, Metastacia was going for the head, which Kaien put his arm in front of at the last second (instinct IMO). So it could be that he was aiming for the head since it would be the best place ot assume full control, but the veins at the wrists would also make a good entry point, since they go throughout the rest of the body.

[Ajpinecrest2]

I saw the part, I am still marking off the fact that he didn't use shunpo to dodge that as CIS.

@Smacharia
You yourself say that there was no injury, so how did Meta reach the veins?

And on topic, what makes you think Kaien can win this fight?

[smacharia8]

I saw the part, I am still marking off the fact that he didn't use shunpo to dodge that as CIS.And Byakuya didn't dodge Ogichi's KGT for the same reason, I suppose?

@Smacharia
You yourself say that there was no injury, so how did Meta reach the veins?Through the skin...:oh:

And on topic, what makes you think Kaien can win this fight?TBH I could care less about this fight because we have little knowledge about the characters and they're also quite meaningless IMO.

[Ajpinecrest2]

And Byakuya didn't dodge Ogichi's KGT for the same reason, I suppose?

That was actually because he was dealing with a heavy injury at the time, and Shirosaki had a grip on him, and we know it is hard to shunpo when someone is physically keeping you from moving

Through the skin...:oh:

Blood vessals are usually closed :oh:

TBH I could care less about this fight because we have little knowledge about the characters and they're also quite meaningless IMO.

Got it, I was a little unsure :oh:

[smacharia8]

That was actually because he was dealing with a heavy injury at the time, and Shirosaki had a grip on him, and we know it is hard to shunpo when someone is physically keeping you from movingShirosaki was simply too fast for him, and wasn't holding him in place either.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/08/

Byakuya was simply caught in motion by someone with far superior speed.

Blood vessals are usually closed :oh:So are the tentacles on a shinigami-possessing hollow experiment.

[Seraph]

I saw the part, I am still marking off the fact that he didn't use shunpo to dodge that as CIS.
Chalk it up to him being surprised that his zanpakutou suddenly *disintegrated*.

[ozey]

Kaien sure. He has more experience.

[Beriadan]

Blood vessals are usually closed :oh:


Because the tentacles obviously can't pierce the skin. :oh:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-135-page-19.html

Even though it's obvious it did. Pierce the skin and blood vessels, the infect the body.
Are you trying to say Hisagi could defend against that?

[PlotKai]

Chalk it up to him being surprised that his zanpakutou suddenly *disintegrated*.

That's as much as the only reason why Kaien didn't finish the hollow off faster using kidou. Binding spell + hadou (like Rukia vs. AA) would have been more than enough. And one can assume that Kaien, as a genius and experienced VC, was capable of performing such a move effortlessly.

... I guess we can't take any useful information off that fight since Kaien was probably not really concentrated and was acting based on his feelings.

On topic: Don't know how the thread was meant, but my first thought was a fight between Hisagi as he is today (fighting arrancar and stuff) versus Kaien back then when he fought Meta. So more like a fictive fight between characters living in different epoches.

... I mean, if you compare Hisagi back then when Kaien died, he obviously would be raped by Kaien so I don't think the thread was meant that way.

That said, we haven't got that much information about their strenght. Kaien had probably been a VC for a longer period of time than Hisagi has. So maybe back then he was stronger than Hisagi is now, but that's just speculation. Hisagi could be even more talented than Kaien... guess we'll never know.

[Davo1515]

lolz, idk. We've not really seen Kaien fight and when it was him fighting he lost. Shuhei has fought more opponents according to what we've seen so it's hard to say Kaien definetely has more experiance than Hisagi. Hisagi has been shown to use kidou and Kaien hasnt. I think with Hisagis well amount of kidou he could beat the hollow, but its hard to say. Not that im saying that hollow was weak, but with the possible fact Kaien relys on his release (Kaien didnt no any of the hollows power but released anyway) and Hisagi doesnt need it to face most opponents, Hisagi is stronger in that area. Hisagi seems to use melee a lot so its probabl that he can still fight even when he doesnt have a zan. A combination of hand-to-hand and kidou would defeat this hollow easily especially with Hisagis shunpo to consider. Hisagi beat a fraccion quite easily with release and Kaien hasnt and obviously wont du to the fact he's dead, shown that level of strength.

With the info at hand, i say Hisagi.

[smacharia8]

lolz, idk. We've not really seen Kaien fight and when it was him fighting he lost. Shuhei has fought more opponents according to what we've seen so it's hard to say Kaien definetely has more experiance than Hisagi. Hisagi has been shown to use kidou and Kaien hasnt. I think with Hisagis well amount of kidou he could beat the hollow, but its hard to say. Not that im saying that hollow was weak, but with the possible fact Kaien relys on his release (Kaien didnt no any of the hollows power but released anyway) and Hisagi doesnt need it to face most opponents, Hisagi is stronger in that area. Hisagi seems to use melee a lot so its probabl that he can still fight even when he doesnt have a zan. A combination of hand-to-hand and kidou would defeat this hollow easily especially with Hisagis shunpo to consider. Hisagi beat a fraccion quite easily with release and Kaien hasnt and obviously wont du to the fact he's dead, shown that level of strength.

With the info at hand, i say Hisagi.How do you know Hisagi doesn't need his zanpakuto against most opponents? Kaien had shunpo as well and it was precisely because of his over-confidence in kidou that Metastacia possessed him. Hisagi's melee will be as useful as Kaien's once his sword was gone. And we did see Kaien's level of strength, through Aaroniero's simulation of him.

[Ajpinecrest2]

Because the tentacles obviously can't pierce the skin. :oh:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-135-page-19.html

Even though it's obvious it did. Pierce the skin and blood vessels, the infect the body.
Are you trying to say Hisagi could defend against that?

Yeah, shunpo to the side.

How do you know Hisagi doesn't need his zanpakuto against most opponents? Kaien had shunpo as well and it was precisely because of his over-confidence in kidou that Metastacia possessed him. Hisagi's melee will be as useful as Kaien's once his sword was gone. And we did see Kaien's level of strength, through Aaroniero's simulation of him.


Kaien didn't demonstrate anything during AA's simulation of him that makes him stronger, faster, or more skilled than Hisagi in anyway.

[Davo1515]

How do you know Hisagi doesn't need his zanpakuto against most opponents? Kaien had shunpo as well and it was precisely because of his over-confidence in kidou that Metastacia possessed him. Hisagi's melee will be as useful as Kaien's once his sword was gone. And we did see Kaien's level of strength, through Aaroniero's simulation of him.


i never meant one's melee would effect hollow more, just that with what we've seen Hisagi uses hand to hand more then Kaien did, since he almost immediatly released to kill a simple hollow (at that point, kaien didnt no it was so strong) and Hisagi doesnt use his zan right away aganst opponents, especially released as he doesnt like his released zan, and that suggests Hisagi is better at hand-to-hand. There is no proof Kaien had shunpo. AA could have been using his own sonido while using Kaiens powers as a bonus. I never said anything about level of kidou affects possesion. In fact, i never even mentioned Meta's possesion so idk where u got that from. AA's use of Kaiens abilities doesnt show Kaiens strength. All it does is show us how AA would use Kaiens powers. Kaien could have and probably would have reacted to fighting Rukia and therefore it shows nothin.

[punni]

i never meant one's melee would effect hollow more, just that with what we've seen Hisagi uses hand to hand more then Kaien did, since he almost immediatly released to kill a simple hollow (at that point, kaien didnt no it was so strong) and Hisagi doesnt use his zan right away aganst opponents, especially released as he doesnt like his released zan, and that suggests Hisagi is better at hand-to-hand. There is no proof Kaien had shunpo. AA could have been using his own sonido while using Kaiens powers as a bonus. I never said anything about level of kidou affects possesion. In fact, i never even mentioned Meta's possesion so idk where u got that from. AA's use of Kaiens abilities doesnt show Kaiens strength. All it does is show us how AA would use Kaiens powers. Kaien could have and probably would have reacted to fighting Rukia and therefore it shows nothin.

Serious question, do you read the manga? Or to be more specific did you read this chapter?
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-135-page-1.html

If you dont think that is shunpo when he attacks first, then a general question: Why the hell would anyone assume a VC doesnt know shunpo.
As you have read by now, Kaien fought for his pride and was enraged about how many shinigami (including his wife) the (certainly not) simple hollow ate.



On topic: Don't know how the thread was meant, but my first thought was a fight between Hisagi as he is today (fighting arrancar and stuff) versus Kaien back then when he fought Meta. So more like a fictive fight between characters living in different epoches.

... I mean, if you compare Hisagi back then when Kaien died, he obviously would be raped by Kaien so I don't think the thread was meant that way.



How would that make a difference? Most likely Kaien died less than 10 years ago (at most 20) as he teached Rukia everything she knew and knew both dances of her shikai. By that time Hisagi was most likely already a VC himself.

[smacharia8]

Yeah, shunpo to the side.Kaien also had shunpo...

Kaien didn't demonstrate anything during AA's simulation of him that makes him stronger, faster, or more skilled than Hisagi in anyway.His zanpakuto's ability was more powerful though; Hisagi's only has potential for unpredictability.

i never meant one's melee would effect hollow more, just that with what we've seen Hisagi uses hand to hand more then Kaien did, since he almost immediatly released to kill a simple hollow (at that point, kaien didnt no it was so strong) and Hisagi doesnt use his zan right away aganst opponents, especially released as he doesnt like his released zan, and that suggests Hisagi is better at hand-to-hand."Simple" is not the term I'd use to describe a hollow that took out an entire squad. That alone is more than enough reason for him to release against it. Hand-to-hand means fighting without a sword or weapon at all, which I don't recall Hisagi doing...ever.

There is no proof Kaien had shunpo. AA could have been using his own sonido while using Kaiens powers as a bonus.If that were the case then there should've been panels of him running toward Metastacia or him swining his sword down when he cut off his hand. Rukia would've also noted the difference if Aaroniero used his power as well.

I never said anything about level of kidou affects possesion. In fact, i never even mentioned Meta's possesion so idk where u got that from.I was informing you about Metastacia deciding to take control of Kaien precicely because of his confidence that he could win with kidou alone.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/135/16/

AA's use of Kaiens abilities doesnt show Kaiens strength. All it does is show us how AA would use Kaiens powers. Kaien could have and probably would have reacted to fighting Rukia and therefore it shows nothin.Rukia felt that everything about him was exactly like the Kaien-dono she knew; Aaroniero said he "only read those experiences and memories [in Kaien's spirit body] and moved accordingly" so even though Kaien wouldn't fight his own comrade for no reason, Aaroniero was only utilzing those abilities the way Kaien himself would. Otherwise Rukia must be retarded for not being able to tell them apart.
http://www.readbleach.com/?ch=267



EDIT:
How would that make a difference? Most likely Kaien died less than 10 years ago (at most 20) as he teached Rukia everything she knew and knew both dances of her shikai. By that time Hisagi was most likely already a VC himself.Yea, it's been @most 17yrs since Hisagi lead Renji's group to the hollow training thing, back when Gin was Aizen's VC. Kaien has been repeatedly asked to fill in the VC position in Ukitake's squad since the days of Byakuya's youth and Urahara's captaincy.

[Davo1515]

[QUOTE=smacharia8;1447920]
"Simple" is not the term I'd use to describe a hollow that took out an entire squad. That alone is more than enough reason for him to release against it.

If that were the case then there should've been panels of him running toward Metastacia or him swining his sword down when he cut off his hand. Rukia would've also noted the difference if Aaroniero used his power as well.

I was informing you about Metastacia deciding to take control of Kaien precicely because of his confidence that he could win with kidou alone.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/135/16/

[COLOR=RoyalBlue][SIZE=2][FONT=Comic Sans MS]Rukia felt that everything about him was exactly like the Kaien-dono she knew; Aaroniero said he "only read those experiences and memories [in Kaien's spirit body] and moved accordingly" so even though Kaien wouldn't fight his own comrade for no reason, Aaroniero was only utilzing those abilities the way Kaien himself would. Otherwise Rukia must be retarded for not being able to tell them apart.
http://www.readbleach.com/?ch=267

Ok, mayb i shouldnt have used simple. i was reffering to it being a normal hollow, not like a menos or anything difficult like that, and that any regular hollow should be lower than VC lvl. You may or may not agree with this but i believe that once your at VC level you shouldnt need a release to handle a hollow. U have shunpo (most likely), release and have basic understandings of kidou. Even though it killed many, none of the shinigami were seated except his wife, who was 3rd (if i remember right). A VC should be much stronger than a 3rd seat and should b able to kill it. Not necessarily easily but without a release. An Arrancar is understandable but not a regular hollow. Entire squad? im pretty sure that thing didnt wipeout the entire 13th squad but ok. Especially bc it was merely a scouting team looking for a possibl area where a hollow may be.



If Kaien has shunpo, then he should have ben able to dodge the possesion by Meta in the first place.Hisagi couldnt handle an opp. that cant keep up with his att., is that what ur saying? Cause that's rediculous. Hisagi is faster than Meta, and would be able to use kidou to kill it. Are u suggesting that Hisagi would be caught by Meta and possesed just bc Kaien did? Hisagi could probably dodge Metas tentacles and kill it. And still,this thread is really just an unpredictable zan against a trident, each with shunpo.

The AA thing, im saying that Kaien probably wouldnt have fought that battle like that, especially against Rukia. Think of it, would Kaien b so over confident? Even if it was Kaiens abilities and style doesnt mean it was Kaien.

Summary being that any VC lvl should be able to beat a regular hollow, regular not reffering to strength but to the fact its not menos or arrancar. If Kaien has shunpo, then he should have been able to win.
This is becaus shunpo would allow one to dodge any attack Meta uses unless it has sonido and dont even bother with that bull. However, Kaien couldnt. Hisagi could because he has more experience (only 1 kaien fight, AA doesnt count), and Hisagi has kidou. Kaien may have had kidou but its unknown at what level.

And yes, i read manga and i also watch anime. Im srry i didnt remember that, i cant remember everythin.

[PlotKai]

How would that make a difference? Most likely Kaien died less than 10 years ago (at most 20) as he teached Rukia everything she knew and knew both dances of her shikai. By that time Hisagi was most likely already a VC himself.

Well, AA knew both dances but didn't know anything about that double-spell stuff (which I don't think you can learn from one day to another).

Yea, it's been @most 17yrs since Hisagi lead Renji's group to the hollow training thing, back when Gin was Aizen's VC. Kaien has been repeatedly asked to fill in the VC position in Ukitake's squad since the days of Byakuya's youth and Urahara's captaincy.

If we go by the 17-years-theory, then Hisagi became VC in a short period of time. And I don't think he was of VC level when he graduated. He could have become a VC just 2-3 years ago. Kaien could've died, let's say, 10 years ago. He's definetly gained power over these years. He's fast-rising, just like Renji, Kira and even Hinamori. ... Even if he was already a VC when Kaien died, he should be stronger now.

... Yeah, I know, same goes for Kaien, he also could've become a VC in a short period of time, but if he was as talented as Renji (who shouldn't be more talented than Hisagi) he should have achieved bankai before he died. If he had, then I agree with you and it doesn't matter how we look at this thread, Kaien would be decisively stronger than Hisagi. But if he hasn't, then it depends on how long Hisagi is going to take to achieve bankai, or whether he will achieve it at all.

... oh well I guess it would just be fairest to compare them by age, like 100 years old Kaien vs. 100 years old Hisagi :amused:

[Ajpinecrest2]

Kaien also had shunpo...

I know, which is why I chalk it up as plot, Kaien had enough time to put up his hand in defense, but not enough time to Shunpo?
It never sat right with me.

His zanpakuto's ability was more powerful though; Hisagi's only has potential for unpredictability.

lolwhat? :oh:

What did Kaien do that makes his Zanpaktou more powerful than Hisagi's?
Break Rukia's Zan?
Big deal, we have never seen anything suggesting Rukia's Zan is very powerful at all.
In fact, the argument that the Zan isn't very durable is supported by the fact that it has an attack which requires it to be shattered.

Hisagi has the Kidou advantage, the range advantage, and the unpredictability advantage.
Tell me, what does Kaien have?

[TW501]

Kaien would likely win, based on what little we've seen of him. Of course Hisagi is pretty powerful too, so it may be close.

[smacharia8]

Ok, mayb i shouldnt have used simple. i was reffering to it being a normal hollow, not like a menos or anything difficult like that, and that any regular hollow should be lower than VC lvl. You may or may not agree with this but i believe that once your at VC level you shouldnt need a release to handle a hollow. U have shunpo (most likely), release and have basic understandings of kidou. Even though it killed many, none of the shinigami were seated except his wife, who was 3rd (if i remember right). A VC should be much stronger than a 3rd seat and should b able to kill it. Not necessarily easily but without a release. An Arrancar is understandable but not a regular hollow. Entire squad? im pretty sure that thing didnt wipeout the entire 13th squad but ok. Especially bc it was merely a scouting team looking for a possibl area where a hollow may be.It is true that VC level shinigami shouldn't really need to release to take out hollows below menos but without a sword your chances of victory become considerably limited. Also this fight had more meaning and significance than being your average extermination; the target had taken out a good number of his squad members, including his wife, and even made remarks about how he killed her. Surely you wouldn't take it easy on anyone if they harm those close to you or objects you hold dear.

If Kaien has shunpo, then he should have ben able to dodge the possesion by Meta in the first place.Hisagi couldnt handle an opp. that cant keep up with his att., is that what ur saying? Cause that's rediculous. Hisagi is faster than Meta, and would be able to use kidou to kill it. Are u suggesting that Hisagi would be caught by Meta and possesed just bc Kaien did? Hisagi could probably dodge Metas tentacles and kill it. And still,this thread is really just an unpredictable zan against a trident, each with shunpo.After fighting with nothing but your hands and exchanging blows with your opponent, most people will wear down. Kaien was breathing a little heavy and Mestastacia was less than 20ft away. His body also didn't burst in a linear fashion, but rather outward and within a good range. Having a VC's level of shunpo doesn't mean jack when facing such odds. I bet Kaien wouldn't have been a sitting duck if he wasn't going hand-to-hand against Metastacia and wearing down like he was.

The AA thing, im saying that Kaien probably wouldnt have fought that battle like that, especially against Rukia. Think of it, would Kaien b so over confident? Even if it was Kaiens abilities and style doesnt mean it was Kaien.Exactly what is it that you're trying to prove? That Kaien is weaker than that? Aaroniero practically hit replay on Kaien's body. And why would Kaien not be confident when facing a shinigami that's not even a VC? It's not like overconfidence wasn't in his past; hell, that's precisely why Metastacia decided to possess him. It may not have been him but we know that's undoubtedly how he fought when he was alive.

Summary being that any VC lvl should be able to beat a regular hollow, regular not reffering to strength but to the fact its not menos or arrancar.Take away their swords and see how well they'll fare.

If Kaien has shunpo, then he should have been able to win.
This is becaus shunpo would allow one to dodge any attack Meta uses unless it has sonido and dont even bother with that bull. However, Kaien couldnt. Hisagi could because he has more experience (only 1 kaien fight, AA doesnt count), and Hisagi has kidou. Kaien may have had kidou but its unknown at what level.VCs are not the most durable of people so forgive me for not expecting them to perform well when worn down. I also doubt someone who completed a 6yr curriculum in 1yr and finally accepts to take a VC seat 5yrs later, will have shitty kidou. And this experience bullshit...you need to give it a rest; trully believe that Kaien has only been in one fight (this would apply to Hisagi too, since the only opponent we saw him fight was Mr. crab-snappers).

And yes, i read manga and i also watch anime. Im srry i didnt remember that, i cant remember everythin.You don't have to remember everything but that doesn't mean you can't take the forgotten into consideration and weigh it against what you already know.



@Plotkai: Kaien has been a VC for @least 60yrs. I'd say he still holds the torch for experience. Neither opponent has bankai either.



I know, which is why I chalk it up as plot, Kaien had enough time to put up his hand in defense, but not enough time to Shunpo?
It never sat right with me.Then again, most things don't sit right with you...:push:

lolwhat? :oh:

What did Kaien do that makes his Zanpaktou more powerful than Hisagi's?
Break Rukia's Zan?
Big deal, we have never seen anything suggesting Rukia's Zan is very powerful at all.
In fact, the argument that the Zan isn't very durable is supported by the fact that it has an attack which requires it to be shattered.

Hisagi has the Kidou advantage, the range advantage, and the unpredictability advantage.
Tell me, what does Kaien have?Unpredictability is the only thing Hisagi's got going for him. Neither has a kidou advantage and his range won't be of much help when not facing someone who thinks breaking his mask and holding his opponent's chain-linked weapon makes him the victor. What does Kaien have? A pretty good strike distance (the trident is about as tall as himself) and the destructive power of his swings.

[Intense]

Hisagi has the Kidou advantage, the range advantage, and the unpredictability advantage.

Why does Hisagi have the kidou advantage?

[punni]

Well, AA knew both dances but didn't know anything about that double-spell stuff (which I don't think you can learn from one day to another).



If we go by the 17-years-theory, then Hisagi became VC in a short period of time. And I don't think he was of VC level when he graduated. He could have become a VC just 2-3 years ago. Kaien could've died, let's say, 10 years ago. He's definetly gained power over these years. He's fast-rising, just like Renji, Kira and even Hinamori. ... Even if he was already a VC when Kaien died, he should be stronger now.

... Yeah, I know, same goes for Kaien, he also could've become a VC in a short period of time, but if he was as talented as Renji (who shouldn't be more talented than Hisagi) he should have achieved bankai before he died. If he had, then I agree with you and it doesn't matter how we look at this thread, Kaien would be decisively stronger than Hisagi. But if he hasn't, then it depends on how long Hisagi is going to take to achieve bankai, or whether he will achieve it at all.

... oh well I guess it would just be fairest to compare them by age, like 100 years old Kaien vs. 100 years old Hisagi :amused:

Although it might be somewhat difficult, 10 years should be more than enough.

for the 17yrs thing.
smacharia mistook the chapter # with the year it is placed in. the chapter of the academy flashback is -17 but it is the first year in the academy for Renji and Rukia. and that was 50 years ago.
http://forums.bleachexile.com/showthread.php?t=24588&highlight=timeline

[PlotKai]

Although it might be somewhat difficult, 10 years should be more than enough.

for the 17yrs thing.
smacharia mistook the chapter # with the year it is placed in. the chapter of the academy flashback is -17 but it is the first year in the academy for Renji and Rukia. and that was 50 years ago.
http://forums.bleachexile.com/showthread.php?t=24588&highlight=timeline

Thx for that, I do recall having heard/read s.th. about 50 years, but I wasn't that sure anymore, and smacharia confused me a little bit with this -17 chapter... well, whatever, if I go with the "tari-timeline" I could come up with even more arguments since this timeline is kinda vague in some aspects... well, whatever... guess I've said what I had to say on this topic, moving on :amused:

[smacharia8]

Yea I also forgot where the timeline was discussed in the story.

@Punni: Do you have any clue where it could've been talked about? I checked Rukia's flashback of Kaien and the -17 chapter as well but found nothing relating to the years.

[punni]

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-179-page-8.html
50 years ago
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-179-page-14.html
adopted Rukia one year later
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-98-page-12.html
at that time Renji passed his 2nd exam.
So the #-17 chapter is 1 to 5 years before that (no idea to what the second exam is referring)

[smacharia8]

So Rukia has been in Kaien's squad for approx 49yrs, during which she learned to use her shikai. And Renji was initially in Aizen's squad before becoming Byakuya's VC. Altogether, that gives Kaien @least 61yrs (110-49) of experience in service while Hisagi gets less than 49.

[shinji]

But thats only while he was about to become ukitake's vc (the same chapter that they were going on about the child genius gin) so he could have been a shinigami for way longer but if we are only counting when they became vc's my bad.

[smacharia8]

The point is he's been VC level for a while, even before he accepted his promotion. Even though Hisagi had his position reserved before his graduation (albeit he was already in his 6th year), he was still lacking in experience before he took his seat -49yrs ago.

At the end of it all, I think Hisagi would win, since this is actually between him and Aaroniero. Fighting in the open (as prescribed by the thread starter) means he can't use his ability so it won't take long before he he transforms into an oversized blob with a cyst pool at the top. Although I can't really guess what Hisagi's going to be able to do from that point on...I also don't know if Glutoneria can withstand the sun either.



EDIT: Plus there's the possibility that Metastacia's ability is the only one (or among the few) that can't take sunlight, meaning he still has -33650 others he could potentially use.

[Baishin]

Does years of experience really matter here?

[TW501]

To some extent. More experience obviously makes one more able in regards to fighting techniques and skills, but there are those who learn skills faster than others, and some who are just plain better. Thus, it matters, but is not the sole factor.

[smacharia8]

In this situation we have Hisagi who had his seat preserved for him while in his 6th year (although we don't know if he became VC from the get-go) and on the other side we have Kaien who completed the academy's curriculum in one year, and we saw him 5yrs later telling Ukitake to quit asking him to be his lieutenant.

But then again, do such matters really matter when the fight is actually between Aaroniero and Hisagi, under Aizen's sun?

Anyways, I don't really care much for these two...I think I'm done with this thread.

[UnadvisedGoose]

This would be more interesting if it were Kaien, not AA, and they both used their shikais. It would be a great fight, and props for the matchup. I give this to Kaien, because he seems just a tad more experienced and his fighting technique with the water would be able to handle a longer ranged duel with Hisagi's. . . things lol. I just think Kaien could take it. As for AA, Im not sure.

[Seraph]

AA could take it under different circumstances. In other words, *not* in a place where he can't use his abilities. The way this fight is set up, "Aaroniero as Kaien" cannot exist at the battlefield, which was the intended match-up (as clarified by the OP).

[smacharia8]

AA could take it under different circumstances. In other words, *not* in a place where he can't use his abilities. The way this fight is set up, "Aaroniero as Kaien" cannot exist at the battlefield, which was the intended match-up (as clarified by the OP)....lulzyar...:slow:

[Baishin]

I guess I shoulda put disreguard the sunlight weakness. I thought peope would assume so, my bad.

[Athane]

Hisagi Vs. Kaien Kaien


Hisagi Vs. AA Hisagi

[Seraph]

How do you figure? AA has all of Kaien's abilities (and then some, unless he's limited to Kaien), doesn't presume that Hisagi will be rendered helpless, and on top of that he's the 9th Espada (keep in mind that Hitsugaya's shikai was resisted by #10).

[Yoruichi-hime]

i think kaien....his power (if he was alive) would be much more developed than hisagi's...plus he was a genious that finished the academy in 2 years. im not bashin hisagi but still he was no genious so i bet kaien would kick his ass...if he was alive.

[GOWSRB]

As far as the Hisagi vs. AA fight, I give it Hisagi since AA has the disadvantage of not being able to use most of his abilities. As far as Hisagi vs. Kaien, it goes to Kaien. While Hisagi is obviously pretty talented and level headed, the exact same thing could be said about Kaien + the fact that Kaien has been in the smae position for much longer and had a teacher who is much more powerful (more than likely).

[pumpkin13]

I fail to see how having a "more powerful teacher" has got anything to do with this. Firstly, how many times have we seen in practically all forms of entertainment, the lowly student eventually surpass his master who is, for the most part of the story, completely uber. Secondly, a teacher doesn't have to be strong, just good at teaching.

[GOWSRB]

So who do you think was a better teacher then. Ukitake or Kaname. And in this case having a strong teacher would be helpful, as they would have a greater knowledge of combat.

[pumpkin13]

I think both taught their pupils in their own respective ways that produced contructive results. I think Tousen (and even Kensei) made more of an impact on Hisagi than Ukitake did on Kaien, or at least thats the impression I get. Kaien hasn't been set up to be the hard working pupil in the manga, he himself fills the role of a mentor towards Rukia, thats his plot job.

Who'se stronger? Well, Ukitake is reputedly one of the strongest as he's one of the oldest, however he also has turburculosis which appears to affect his health and stamina somewhat. On the other hand, Tousen (for all intents and purposes) dispatched four captains (Kensei, Love, Rose, Shinji) and four vice captains (Lisa, Hiyori, Masahiro and the Vice Kidou Captain Haachi) as well as Kensei's retinue single handedly, a feat not to be taken lightly even if it was using his hax bankai. Hold on a sec... whats that? He had bankai and he wasn't even VC level? On top of that, many theorise the three traitor captains to now be in possession of Vaizard powers, which personally im not totally against... so i'd say current HM Tousen pwns Ukitake.

EDIT: Okay strictly speaking, after going back and reading the chapters again, Kensei deals with Lisa and Hiyori deals with Shinji. But still, it only adds to Tousen's strategic intelligence that he manufactured his ambush/attack to happen in such a way.

[smacharia8]

Then again, it could just as well be that he was simply following orders like a dog obeying its master. Oh, wait a sec...
http://www.readbleach.com/?ch=-98

Regarding Kaien not looking like a hard worker, allow me to remind you that he graduated from the academy in 1yr. And Ichigo doesn't look like a hard worker either...same goes for Urahara...Isshin...Shunsui...

[shinji]

I think both taught their pupils in their own respective ways that produced contructive results. I think Tousen (and even Kensei) made more of an impact on Hisagi than Ukitake did on Kaien, or at least thats the impression I get. Kaien hasn't been set up to be the hard working pupil in the manga, he himself fills the role of a mentor towards Rukia, thats his plot job.

Who'se stronger? Well, Ukitake is reputedly one of the strongest as he's one of the oldest, however he also has turburculosis which appears to affect his health and stamina somewhat. On the other hand, Tousen (for all intents and purposes) dispatched four captains (Kensei, Love, Rose, Shinji) and four vice captains (Lisa, Hiyori, Masahiro and the Vice Kidou Captain Haachi) as well as Kensei's retinue single handedly, a feat not to be taken lightly even if it was using his hax bankai. Hold on a sec... whats that? He had bankai and he wasn't even VC level? On top of that, many theorise the three traitor captains to now be in possession of Vaizard powers, which personally im not totally against... so i'd say current HM Tousen pwns Ukitake.

EDIT: Okay strictly speaking, after going back and reading the chapters again, Kensei deals with Lisa and Hiyori deals with Shinji. But still, it only adds to Tousen's strategic intelligence that he manufactured his ambush/attack to happen in such a way.


The only two tousen did in where kensei and love in which he attacked from behind rose was taken out by mashiro and shinji by hiyori hollow kensei also did in lisa and weakened love.

It was aizen's plan to begin with so tousen can't take credit for that.

Ikkaku and urahara had bankai when they were third seat nothing special like ichigo.

There is a chance they are vizards but he is afraid to die which would bring out their hollows and plus he was pwned almost too easy by kenpachi.

[pumpkin13]

I don't see how following orders has anything to do with it. He accomplished them efficiently and effectively.

Well, there you have the whole Genius vs. Self Made person arguement. One might argue that if he passed the entire academy in one year he's a genius, and as such doesn't nesc. have to work hard, he's just that good anyway. Anyway thats going off topic.

EDIT: No... a proper pwning would be Grand Fisher vs. Isshin, Kenpachi was confronted with quite a problem when facing Tousen and had to employ some hardcore thinking in order to overcome him.

So who did in Masahiro? And the rest of Murugama's retinue? And managing to sneak up on a captain and deal a one hit blow from behind? We don't know if it was Aizen's plan to do it that exact way, he could have just said "Tousen, take care of the situation." and left the planning to Tousen, even if it was Aizen's plan, you still need someone competant enough to carry it out well.

[punni]

pumpkin, may I remind you that there is crushing evidence that Aizen helped Tousen in both attacks.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-322-page-18.html
Tousen lies "dead" on the ground. The following attack comes not from where Tousen lay, and the next comes again from the opposite direction.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-325-page-16.html
Aizen is present and Vizards disappear one by one while Tousen, Aizen and Gin remain visible.

none of the aforementioned things are an effect of Tousen's bankai.

And seriously, he is obviously specialized in ambushing. Pulling off multiple non-lethal attacks from behind is no big deal, when the opponent is severely distracted.

[smacharia8]

I don't see how following orders has anything to do with it. He accomplished them efficiently and effectively.And the efficiency of his hax bankai makes him a better mentor/teacher...because? Having a strong punch like Kimbo Slice doesn't make you good at MMA or any fighting league for that matter; it only denotes the strength of your punch.

So who did in Masahiro? And the rest of Murugama's retinue? And managing to sneak up on a captain and deal a one hit blow from behind? We don't know if it was Aizen's plan to do it that exact way, he could have just said "Tousen, take care of the situation." and left the planning to Tousen, even if it was Aizen's plan, you still need someone competant enough to carry it out well.Hax bankai acompanied by an even more hax shikai =/= teaching skills...or even intelligence for that matter.

[MissTaken]

Kaien>Hisagi.
But Hisagi>AA
It depends on which Kaien we're discussing.

[usopenkid]

kaien

[Exiazer0]

Kaien, no reason

[Seanc]

Yeah Kaien takes this hands down.

[fakeobsession]

I'll say Kaien...the real one...
he could be Captain!
there is no comparison to Hisagi.

[UnadvisedGoose]

I just have to say, I would absolutely love to see this fight. Both of their fighting styles are so unique and their zans are pretty tight too. At this point, from what we've heard about Kaien from Ukitake and Rukia, and what we've seen from AA's perfect replica, I think he has the battle capabilities to take out Hisagi.

[GOWSRB]

Goes to Kaien. From what information we have and can surmise, he was overall simply more talented and had more experience.

[Captainarmstead]

I'd go with Hisagi since it was insinuated that he should become the new captain of the 9th Division. Kaien has been around longer, but look at Hitsu. He hasn't been around very long and is a captain. Experience doesn't seem to mean much in bleach. Unless its for an extraordinarily long time (Yama, Shunsui, Ukitaki, Unohana).

[McFlyan]

That's the thing though, Hitsugaya doesn't have much experience at all but he's a captain cuz he's so strong at such a young age. Kaien, however, had to work his way up to becoming a VC (that is as far as we know) so he's actually got some experience.
I digress.... I'll go with Kaien for a few reasons. While I will be the first to tell you that imo Hisagi is the strongest non-captain currently in SS, I think Kaien could take him down. Kaien's zan is powerful, he knows how to fight well enough to train Rukia (who like it or not is actually a decent fighter), and was a VC for a pretty long time so he's probably been in a few scrapes.
To sum it up, my opinion is that Kaien's strength, zan, and fighting experience would be enough to defeat Hisagi. I don't think he would win by a large margin but i do think he would win.

[fifenfk]

After seeing him release his zan and showing what he can do given the chance I would go with Shuhei as i haven't seen Kaien really go all out.

[UnadvisedGoose]

Thats actually a good point. We saw what AA could do as Kaien, but we don't necessarily know if Kaien himself was exactly the same, as AA claimed. And if you remember, Kaien completed the Academy in the same ridiculous amount of time and rose in ranks as quickly as Gin, who we all consider to be pretty beastly. Kaien could've been a VC long before he actually took the rank(as seen in TBTP), so for all we know, if he hadn't died by that crazy hax powered hollow, he could've been at or around captain level by now. PURE speculation I know, but its within the realm of possibility.

[Captainarmstead]

That was my point though, in that experience doesn't seem to be that big of a factor. What it boils down to is that Hisagi is thought to be on par with captains and was recruited by Ukitake to become one. Kaien was recruited to be a VC. Granted that was long ago, but that is all we have seen.

[Alan the Cowboy Killer]

That was my point though, in that experience doesn't seem to be that big of a factor. What it boils down to is that Hisagi is thought to be on par with captains and was recruited by Ukitake to become one. Kaien was recruited to be a VC. Granted that was long ago, but that is all we have seen.

Eh...you mean the other way around, right? Kaien recruited by Ukitake and Hisagi made a VC?

[Spectre]

Kaien pwns!! Kaien' battle stance has no weak spot!! I almost feel sorry for Hisagi!!

[Goroth]

I'm 9 pages late.
Most possible options were mentioned, therefore I'll save the explanation. This battle could go for awhile if the machine was activated and both opponents met on the battle ground.

[Soujirou]

Kaien may be a good fighter with good defense, but wth, he sucks at Kido, he was fighting for his life against a Hollow, and the best Kido he could pull was the Way of Destruction # 34... Hisagi is capable of casting stuff dozens of levels higher than that, and probably with much greater power too...Since Kaien couldn't finish the Hollow with his spells.

[Spectre]

Kaien wouldnt've been called a genius if he sucked at Kidou!!

[kochito22]

Gin and Hitsugaya have been called geniuses. Have we ever seen those 2 use high level kidou?

[darkp]

I think we cant say " being genius means u can use high level kidou" but "gin and hitsugaya did not show any high level kidou" does not means they cant use it either.

[UnadvisedGoose]

Kaien may be a good fighter with good defense, but wth, he sucks at Kido, he was fighting for his life against a Hollow, and the best Kido he could pull was the Way of Destruction # 34... Hisagi is capable of casting stuff dozens of levels higher than that, and probably with much greater power too...Since Kaien couldn't finish the Hollow with his spells.

We don't know that that was all he could cast. There have been several times where someone doesn't use a higher level Kido when they could have, like when Byakuya used Hadou 4, instead of something much more powerful because we know he's capable of that. And Hisagi has used a level 60. Not that much higher at all. . . And like I said, he really didn't have much of an oppurtunity to use Kido. That hollow took over his body relatively early in the battle. And with hax abilities like suddenly being able to take over a spirit body, and destroying a zan on contact, I don't think any less of Kaien for losing. Honestly don't think Hisagi would've faired any better at all.

EDIT:Just looked over the chapters in which Kaien fought this hollow, and he didn't even get a chance to use Kido, so we have no idea what his capabilities are in that area whatsoever. But he did seem quite confident that he could defeat it with Kido alone, and it looked that way as well, considering he was doing very well against it with just his bare hands. The hollow was also scared/intimidated enough to use the body stealing technique, as he said he didn't want to use it but it looked like he had no choice.

[VegetaFan7]

Hisagi.

[Rosh]

I think if rukia can beat AA then Hisagi could to, however i think that AA an kaien are completely diffrent I mean yeah AA has his fighting ability but not his mind state. peace