Hollow Ichigo & Kensei vs Kenpachi, Nnoitra & Grimmjow

[Xova]

Crazy hollowfied Bankai Ichigo during vizard training and Hollow Kensei in Pendulum arc.

Just a bunch of very bloodlusted guys. I think this may be imbalanced towards the 1st team, but hey it's late, and I'm tired. Always open to other opinions, just give some reasons.

All out fight, Kendo, resurrection, etc all allowed.

[Stuey_NaO]

Team 2. Reasons being;
Although Kenpachi beat nnoitra, he had a lot of trouble with him, and ichigo only just beat kenpachi. So I think nnoitra would tear ichigo apart.
Also Ichigo had a fair bit of trouble with grimmjow. No way could he take all 3, with kensei or not.
Kensei seemed to be able to hold his own very well against the hollowfied ichigo during the vizard training, and seemed to be highly respected as a captain, which only brings me to believe he is very skilled in combat. That said, we can't really say anything because, all we saw was him, what looked like, being took over by his inner hollow, unable to control anything, as this was happening, slowly, 1 by 1, it happened to the others.
Although I do want/hope/believe kensei to be win, and hope he has a big part in the manga soon!

But, Team 2 anyway.

~Stuey

[punni]

LOL at randomness.

"Crazy hollowfied Bankai Ichigo during vizard training" - not clear what you mean. Is Ichigo struggling in the inner world? Because if not the Hollow would have been far stronger than shown. The Hollow Ichigo shown was not controlled by Hichigo but was rather out of any control

Team 1 wins.
IMO Nnoitra and GJ dont stand a chance against Hollow Ichigo, and probably neither against H Kensei. Zaraki cant take down both.

[Xova]

LOL at randomness.

"Crazy hollowfied Bankai Ichigo during vizard training" - not clear what you mean. Is Ichigo struggling in the inner world? Because if not the Hollow would have been far stronger than shown. The Hollow Ichigo shown was not controlled by Hichigo but was rather out of any control

Team 1 wins.
IMO Nnoitra and GJ dont stand a chance against Hollow Ichigo, and probably neither against H Kensei. Zaraki cant take down both.

I'm not sure which version's most commonly used here, but wouldn't under Hichigo control mean full Shirosaki personality as well? Think I'd go with the completely outta control berserker, except with a never ending inner world battle for Ichigo so the hollowfication would not recede. This should make it a closer fight than the first choice. Sorry if I confused you, I'm confusing my self a bit here too.

[punni]

What I meant is that IMO the H Ichigo they had to subdue wasnt nearly as bloodlusted as Hichigo when he fought Byakuya.
The hollow Ichigo during the Vizard training was wreaking random havoc and destruction and didnt focus on the opponent.

[Lnrd]

If your talking about the lizard hollow that was oozing reiatsu from TZ, then defenitely team 1.

[Xova]

What I meant is that IMO the H Ichigo they had to subdue wasnt nearly as bloodlusted as Hichigo when he fought Byakuya.
The hollow Ichigo during the Vizard training was wreaking random havoc and destruction and didnt focus on the opponent.

The latter is what we're using, but anyways isn't the standard setting for these fights natural bloodlust? Meaning that the character is still attempting to defeat the specific opponents they're being pitted against?

[justin43]

If it is the lizard hollow, Hollow Ichigo takes out Noitora and Grimmjow by himself while Kensei deals with Kenpachi.

[shinji]

Since hollow kensei made shit of 2 captains easily i'd say he'd have too much power over the other guys and with crazy hollowfied bankai ichigo(which i assume is the one that came out against byakuya) they would rip the three of them apart.

[PlotKai]

Captain lvl shinigami+hollow powers > adjuchas+shinigami powers. Zaraki did well beating a strong adjuchas arrancar, but (H)Ichigo and Kensei hollow going bananas on team 2 would probably be too much for 1 very strong shinigami and 2 good adjuchas to handle...

[smacharia8]

Grimmjow owns Kensei and then joins Noitora and Zaraki vs Hollow Ichigo.

@shinji: Kensei only hit love, who was not what I would call "prepared for battle".

[samir12]

we talkin about kensai able to go into vaizard right? if so den team 1.

[Intense]

No, its Kensei dominated by his hollow.

[Dios k de la muerte]

IMO Hollow Ichigo could probably take all of Team 2 out by himself but Kensei just makes things a bit easier.

[Athane]

I'm going with Team one since it seems we are talking about the Lizard Hollow of Ichigo that seemed to keep evolving, had instant regeneration and was using a couple moves that we had never seen before from any hollow.

All I can really say is Ichigo's form and Kensei's form would go ape shit on team 2.

If we're talking about the shirosaki during shirosaki vs. byakuya, Shirosaki would probably mash Kenpachi Grimmjow and Nnoitora by himself with Kensei sitting in a corner.

[shinji]

Since there 2 fierce brainless monsters whats stopping them from ripping each other apart.

[smacharia8]

Grimmjow rips Kensei's hollow apart, as would Noitora. There was no speed-blitzing from Ichigo's hollow form so Kenpachi and Noitora face it head to head while Grimmjow maintains areal surveilance for the most part.


@shinji: Why are you green?

[Vergil]

I dont really know i voted for team 1, because lizard ichigo is just really strong with his abilities mentioned from above and kensei isnt that bad,I think grimmjow would be deafeated fast and then it will be 2 vs 2 and the 1st team wins, i just think ichigo's regen speed ownz.

[Brick]

Crazy hollowfied Bankai Ichigo during vizard training and Hollow Kensei in Pendulum arc.

Just a bunch of very bloodlusted guys. I think this may be imbalanced towards the 1st team, but hey it's late, and I'm tired. Always open to other opinions, just give some reasons.

All out fight, Kendo, resurrection, etc all allowed.

Team 2 wins. First of all, Hichigo is overrated. Most of his strength is due to the fact he draws from Ichigo's massive supply of energy. Second of all, Kensei and Hichigo would fall under a very strong hollow whereas Grimmjow and Noitora are adjuntas-classed menos and on top of that arrancarnized ones that are in the Espada.

Add the overkill that is Kenpachi, who without bankai or a shikai technique, was able to defeat a mid-level espada and it's pretty obvious that Team 2 wins even though the matchup would be damn near pointless.

[justin43]

Are you seriously calling Hollow Ichigo, the manifestation of Hichigo and Ichigo's power combined in an uncontrolled way, something that can be defeated by Grimmjow and Noitora? You are out of your mind. If there was ever something that can be spectulated as VL class menos, Hollow Ichigo is it. Grimmjow and Noitora didn't have anything close to Hollow Ichigo's power.

Laundry list of Hollow Ichigo:
1. Hyper regeneration
2. Ability to fire finger-tipped ceros
3. Weird mouth attack that harmed shikai Kensei
4. Scaring a captain vaizard into thoughts of using his mask to defend against it.
5. Humanoid lizard form that was oozing reiatsu.

If that is not VL menos class in power, I don't know what is.

Team 2 only chance is for Kenpachi is to quickly take out Kensei's hollow and triple-team Hollow Ichigo before he rips apart Noitora and Grimmjow. If Hollow Ichigo wins first, then Team 2 screwed.

[Brick]

Are you serious calling Hollow Ichigo, the manifestation of Hichigo and Ichigo's power combined in an uncontrolled way, something that can be defeated by Grimmjow and Noitora? You are out of your mind. If there was ever something that can be spectulated as VL class menos, Hollow Ichigo is it. Grimmjow and Noitora didn't have anything close to Hollow Ichigo's power.What I mean is Hichigo is a hollow that is strong due to the fact that Ichigo has a ridiculous amount of reiatsu but the fact still remains that he is a hollow. The vaizards were damn able to deal with him just as that if Ichigo wasn't able to suppress it but there is a difference between the hollow itself, Ichigo, and Ichigo using it's power. To say a two very strong hollow could defeat two espada and captain with ease is a stretch IMO.

[justin43]

No, it isn't. We saw what an adjuncha class menos was able to do in the Grimmjow flashback. Calling full hollow ichigo a hollow is an insult. Hollows don't have regeneration. Menos do. Adjuncha menos don't fire ceros from their fingers, who the only other person shown to do so was Ulquiorra, an espada. Vichigo is not getting the full power of Hichigo, but yet he is able to defeat Grimmjow. Ulquiorra commented that Hichigo, not Ichigo's power, was stronger than his. Hollow Ichigo is the full power of Hichigo and Ichigo used together. If Vichigo, or Ichigo + 30% Hichigo > Grimmjow and Hichigo > Ulquiorra, then Hollow Ichigo or 100% Ichigo + 100% Hichigo >>>>> Grimmjow. Therefore, Hollow Ichigo >>>> Noitora. Simple logic.

[TheLegend/MVP]

i think Hollow Ichigo with kill them all without Kensei help. My facts are Hollow Ichigo knows everything about Zangetsu and he is a manifestation of Ichigo which is also already overpowered for a 15 year old ...when all other captain are and should be more then 100 years old so Hichigo would take all by himself

[smacharia8]

Are you seriously calling Hollow Ichigo, the manifestation of Hichigo and Ichigo's power combined in an uncontrolled way, something that can be defeated by Grimmjow and Noitora? You are out of your mind. If there was ever something that can be spectulated as VL class menos, Hollow Ichigo is it. Grimmjow and Noitora didn't have anything close to Hollow Ichigo's power.

Laundry list of Hollow Ichigo:
1. Hyper regeneration
2. Ability to fire finger-tipped ceros
3. Weird mouth attack that harmed shikai Kensei
4. Scaring a captain vaizard into thoughts of using his mask to defend against it.
5. Humanoid lizard form that was oozing reiatsu.

If that is not VL menos class in power, I don't know what is.

Team 2 only chance is for Kenpachi is to quickly take out Kensei's hollow and triple-team Hollow Ichigo before he rips apart Noitora and Grimmjow. If Hollow Ichigo wins first, then Team 2 screwed.The ability to fire finger-tipped ceros...? Just say the cero was really powerful; no conclusive link has been made regarding how people's power levels and how they fire ceros. So what if Love chose to bring out his mask to counter his cero? What else could he have done with the limited space he had? Run to a corner and hope the cero doesn't reach that far? Mega-cero should be more than enough to deal with it. And where exactly was Kensei harmed? Is this injury supposed to be HERE (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/220/06/)? The fact of the matter is we know little about the VL level of power, and nothing about the abilities they possess. So all this talk about hyper-regeneration and finger-tipped ceros and oozing reiatsu doesn't really take this anywhere.


@justin+MVP: Crazy hollowfied Ichigo =/= Ogichi who was fighting Ichigo in his inner world at the same time.

[shinji]

Grimmjow rips Kensei's hollow apart, as would Noitora. There was no speed-blitzing from Ichigo's hollow form so Kenpachi and Noitora face it head to head while Grimmjow maintains areal surveilance for the most part.


@shinji: Why are you green?
I was made vice captain of the 5th division.

Was there any indication that those three could be faster than hollowfied ichigo and kensei and with the hyper speed regeneration (that looked way faster than noitra's) how can they possibly take down something that powerful.

[punni]

What I mean is Hichigo is a hollow that is strong due to the fact that Ichigo has a ridiculous amount of reiatsu but the fact still remains that he is a hollow. The vaizards were damn able to deal with him just as that if Ichigo wasn't able to suppress it but there is a difference between the hollow itself, Ichigo, and Ichigo using it's power. To say a two very strong hollow could defeat two espada and captain with ease is a stretch IMO.

Quite an exaggeration. All they had to do was keep the him inside the barrier to minimize the damage. They didnt try to kill him (so we cant know if they could have succeeded), they tried to keep him occupied while remaining unharmed.

[Peak]

Due to being it two on three with two powerful Espada and a powerful Captain like Kenpachi, it seems to me the Ichigo & Kensei have a little chance of winning like this.

[Terabane]

Due to being it two on three with two powerful Espada and a powerful Captain like Kenpachi, it seems to me the Ichigo & Kensei have a little chance of winning like this.

Awesome argument.

[shinji]

Due to being it two on three with two powerful Espada and a powerful Captain like Kenpachi, it seems to me the Ichigo & Kensei have a little chance of winning like this.To be honest it's just a fight of brute force against bruce force and even if they have 1 strong captain and 2 espada (one which was beat by a ichigo who could'nt compare to his full holow form) they just don't have enough power or speed to take these two demon's down.

[justin43]

@smacharia8
Oozing reiatsu does say a lot about Hollow Ichigo's power. Hollow Ichigo has full access to Ichigo's power and Hichigo's power. Hichigo, as stated by Ulquiorra, is stronger than him. Assuming Ulquiorra is VL or even high-tier adjuncha level at the least, Ichigo + Hichigo, or Hollow Ichigo/future Vichigo should be well within the VL range of power.

[shinji]

But since the two are fighting inside it's safe to say he has both their power but has no brains what so ever which properly means a full hollow transformation only fights with instinct.

[Peak]

Well it looks like this to me.

There is already an Espada that can match up to HI strength, Grimmjow.

Then you have the other Espada the does have brute strength which would probably beat HI.

Also you have Kenpachi that has the most powerful brute strength.

Also even if HI has a Vizard it's still an unfair disadvantage due to it being still two against three. But what happens if HI can't do anymore battling? I don't think Kensei can handle them all at the same time.

[justin43]

If Grimmjow lost to Vichigo, then how in the world is he going to defeat Hollow Ichigo?

[Peak]

If Grimmjow lost to Vichigo, then how in the world is he going to defeat Hollow Ichigo?
Good question.

I didn't say that he can. I just said that he can match up to his strength most likely.

He would make HI tired.

[shinji]

Well it looks like this to me.

There is already an Espada that can match up to HI strength, Grimmjow.

Then you have the other Espada the does have brute strength which would probably beat HI.

Also you have Kenpachi that has the most powerful brute strength.

Also even if HI has a Vizard it's still an unfair disadvantage due to it being still two against three. But what happens if HI can't do anymore battling? I don't think Kensei can handle them all at the same time.
He can't match up to vizard ichigo's strength let along fully hollowfied ichigo he has a high regeneration which makes all physical attacks (which basically is all that the three of them can do) useless along with finger tip cero's.

He would over power the three of them easily although i'll admit that hollowfied ichigo and kensei are as dumb as shit they would still make mince meat out of

1 Kenpachi (who was already beaten by a shikai ichigo with hichigo's power's)

2 Grimmjow (who vizard ichigo already beat)

3 Noitra (who was beaten by kenpachi and kenpachi was defeated by ichigo)

Vizard ichigo and hax ichigo are no where as powerful as ichigo completely hollowfied and since he already beat two of these in a much weaker state then him and kensei hollowfied would totally own grimm,noitra and kenpachi.

[Peak]

He can't match up to vizard ichigo's strength let along fully hollowfied ichigo he has a high regeneration which makes all physical attacks (which basically is all that the three of them can do) useless along with finger tip cero's.

He would over power the three of them easily although i'll admit that hollowfied ichigo and kensei are as dumb as shit they would still make mince meat out of

1 Kenpachi (who was already beaten by a shikai ichigo with hichigo's power's)

2 Grimmjow (who vizard ichigo already beat)

3 Noitra (who was beaten by kenpachi and kenpachi was defeated by ichigo)

Vizard ichigo and hax ichigo are no where as powerful as ichigo completely hollowfied and since he already beat two of these in a much weaker state then him and kensei hollowfied would totally own grimm,noitra and kenpachi.
You have me there.

[Oxyuranus]

He can't match up to vizard ichigo's strength let along fully hollowfied ichigo he has a high regeneration which makes all physical attacks (which basically is all that the three of them can do) useless along with finger tip cero's.

He would over power the three of them easily although i'll admit that hollowfied ichigo and kensei are as dumb as shit they would still make mince meat out of

1 Kenpachi (who was already beaten by a shikai ichigo with hichigo's power's)

2 Grimmjow (who vizard ichigo already beat)

3 Noitra (who was beaten by kenpachi and kenpachi was defeated by ichigo)

Vizard ichigo and hax ichigo are no where as powerful as ichigo completely hollowfied and since he already beat two of these in a much weaker state then him and kensei hollowfied would totally own grimm,noitra and kenpachi.

Ok, your post fails. Comparing Kenpachi's loss to shikai Ichigo and stating that because of this kenpachi doesnt stand a chance means you have not been paying attn to Bleach. Kenpachi didnt use kendo vs that super hollowfied combination of Ichigo and his two spiritual incarnations. Kendo was atleast twice as strong as a reg one handed swing. There for it is arguable based on your reasoning that Kenpachi's strength is far and away stronger then hichigos because he lacked kendo in their confrontation. Hell, he basically won against Ichigo anyway. The only reason he lost was because his resolve was broke. Who was standing last? Who was still intact? and who was nearly ripped in half by Kenpachi's sword? Ok, now can you come up with a reasonable argument instead of the failed A>B>C crap that has no place in bleach logic (did I just say logic and bleach in the same sentance? O.o)

That being said...hmmmm......I think it would be close and probaly in fav of Zaraki, Noi and Grim. Kenpachi and Noi are in the same league of strength as the hollows and Grim is in the same league of speed. Plus its 3 on 1. hiichigo's power comes from his regenerative abilities (Noi has this), his insane strength(which both Noi and Kenpachi can rival and hell, even Grim can match to an extent since he went toe to toe with vizard ichigo fort so long. I will give Hichigo the edge over Grim but it is arguable that vizard Ichigo is of the same strength) and his sadistic, crazy attitude (which Noi and Kenpachi both have and hell, have shown to be just as crazy and blood thirsty). Basically all of team 2 can hang with Hichigo on alot of his characteristics kinda making him mute to the extent that anyone of them should be able to hold him for a bit 1 on 1. Now there is Kensei. He fucked up alot of the vizards in his hollow state but guess what? The were trying not to kill him! No one went bankai. no one tried really to take him down and they all got wtfpwned when they found out what getting cut by him did to them.

Ok, so now that we have established that kensin, though strong hasnt gone up against the full force of any captain and we have Hichigo, who owned Byakyua, tied with kenpachi (who wasn't going all out) and barely got one over on Grim (if you argue that Vizard powers = Hichigo powers. Some people say yes, others say no) plus the fact that its a 3 on 2 fight? I don't see how anyone can conclude that Kenny and the Espada dont walked away from this with ease.

[Darkmaterials]

1 Kenpachi (who was already beaten by a shikai ichigo with hichigo's power's)

Zaraki without kendo.
And how did Zaraki lose anyway?


3 Noitra (who was beaten by kenpachi and kenpachi was defeated by ichigo)

Zaraki with kendo beat Nnoitra and Zaraki without kendo didn't really lose to Ichigo.

My interpretation is that Nnoitra would beat hax Ichigo tbh.


Vizard ichigo and hax ichigo are no where as powerful as ichigo completely hollowfied

Has this been stated or is everyone assuming it's true? (I honestly have no idea which it is and cba to re-read all the chapters:amused:).


and since he already beat two of these in a much weaker state then him and kensei hollowfied would totally own grimm,noitra and kenpachi.

Hollowfied Kensei has barely any feats, didn't he take one captain with unknown power by suprise during tbtp?

[shinji]

Kenpachi's kendo is shit against a hollow who has already proved to have a regeneation speed faster than that of nnoitra (and which does'nt even compare since half of him was blown off and regenerated nearly straight away)

Kenpachi got fucked up after that fight and could'nt move so the fartest i'm willing to go is a draw.

Hollow ichigo and hollow kensei are two completely ruthless animals that would rip your head off given half a chance nnoitra has even showed some sort of conscious along with kenpachi and grimm but these two dont they are animals.


Ichigo would be powerful enough to take down nnoitra and grimm while kensei would focus on kenpachi and he would not be able to take down a captain lvl vizard gone berserk who has at least a 110 years experiance under his belt.

[Peak]

And how did Zaraki lose anyway?
Actually he didn't. It was a tie between the two.

[Darkmaterials]

@ Shinji.

That's assuming Hollowified Ichigo is stronger than his vizard from though.

Also, it's Zaraki we're talking about.
I doubt either of the hollowified could survive being cut clean in two (which Nnoitra was as good as).

Kensei still has no real feats, he could have been the Hitsugaya of the gotei 13 at that time lol.


Edit:
Actually he didn't. It was a tie between the two.

That's my point, they both admitted defeat and Ichigo fell first.
If anything it's more of a win for Zaraki than Ichigo, but I'll stick with draw.

[Peak]

@ Shinji.That's my point, they both admitted defeat and Ichigo fell first. If anything it's more of a win for Zaraki than Ichigo, but I'll stick with draw.
Well it doesn't matter who falls first if they both admitted defeat to each other.

It just makes it a tie because they both knew they had lost.

[smacharia8]

I was made vice captain of the 5th division.

Was there any indication that those three could be faster than hollowfied ichigo and kensei and with the hyper speed regeneration (that looked way faster than noitra's) how can they possibly take down something that powerful.By the same token, there's been no indication that hollowfied Ichigo and Kensei have trememdous speed.

@smacharia8
Oozing reiatsu does say a lot about Hollow Ichigo's power. Hollow Ichigo has full access to Ichigo's power and Hichigo's power. Hichigo, as stated by Ulquiorra, is stronger than him. Assuming Ulquiorra is VL or even high-tier adjuncha level at the least, Ichigo + Hichigo, or Hollow Ichigo/future Vichigo should be well within the VL range of power.This is still hollowfied Ichigo though, with practically no consciencious decision making. Regardless of Ogichi's power...

Kenpachi's kendo is shit against a hollow who has already proved to have a regeneation speed faster than that of nnoitra (and which does'nt even compare since half of him was blown off and regenerated nearly straight away)IMO there's a big difference between getting your arm chopped off (hollowfied Ichigo) and being cut right down the middle (Noitora).

Hollow ichigo and hollow kensei are two completely ruthless animals that would rip your head off given half a chance nnoitra has even showed some sort of conscious along with kenpachi and grimm but these two dont they are animals.And animals can't make intelligent decisions like humans and mid/high tier espada. While Grimmjow, Noitora and Zaraki can formulate a simple strategy and work together, the animals will just act like savages, which will make for a fun experience for Zaraki's bloodthirsty trio.

Ichigo would be powerful enough to take down nnoitra and grimm while kensei would focus on kenpachi and he would not be able to take down a captain lvl vizard gone berserk who has at least a 110 years experiance under his belt.110yrs experience my ass. Those subconscious hollow forms couldn't even make coherent verbiage. It's psycho brains vs incopetent hollows. When it comes down to who will win, the verdict is unanimous.



EDIT: Kensei's hollow form won't be a problem for anyone. The only reason people think is powerful is because the Shinji's crew failed against him. And that itself is a flawed conclusion, seeing that the only one who got hit by him is Love, who was unprepared to begin with (FFS they hadn't even gotten a good grasp of the situation they were in). And he wasn't a goner either; Rose was the only one who was clearly not in good condition, which was after getting a kick to the head from hollowfied Mashiro.

[justin43]

You didn't say anything that disprove that Hollow Ichigo should be VL in power, but I get your point about the lack of intelligence being a factor in this battle. However, I disagree with the statement that Noitora has the same strength as Hollow Ichigo. The Hichigo part of Hollow Ichigo is stronger than Noitora due to it being stronger than Ulquiorra. Add Ichigo and I think you will see my point. I will be more willing to accept Kenpachi being in the same strength category as Hollow Ichigo than Noitora. Grimmjow and Noitora are trash in front of Hollow Ichigo. Kenpachi is the main threat even through I doubt he could take out Hollow Ichigo alone. I will stay with my original assessment. If Kenpachi takes out Hollow Kensei quickly, then team 2 wins. Otherwise, team one wins regardless of lacking the intelligence because they fight by instinct, which is more dangerous in this matchup.

[shinji]

Well kensei smashed a captain into the ground and injured him as he was breathing heavily although love was not ready for kensei to be able to smash a captain into the ground before he could react is fast and he even broke hachi's kidou who said that he never saw someone breaking that spell with pure strength alone so he has shown feats of strength and speed.

While i admit when kenpachi cut nnoitra it was pretty deep and life threatening he still survived and was able to move to attack again although incredibly weak he could still move so i doubt he was nearly cut in half.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/312/09/

But if you consider the damage hollowfied ichigo took and how fast it grew back it's at a totally different level to nnoitra's regeneration imean something huge grew out in the matter of a second.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/220/04/

And yes they are stupid animals but like stupid animals they don't think which would make them natural killer's they see something move they attack simple and to be honest the other three would fight that way anyway lol.

[TW501]

This is a tough one. Team one seems more powerful, but given the circumstances, I'm leaning towards Team two. It would be really close either way.

[smacharia8]

You didn't say anything that disprove that Hollow Ichigo should be VL in power, but I get your point about the lack of intelligence being a factor in this battle.Okay then.

However, I disagree with the statement that Noitora has the same strength as Hollow Ichigo. The Hichigo part of Hollow Ichigo is stronger than Noitora due to it being stronger than Ulquiorra. Add Ichigo and I think you will see my point. I will be more willing to accept Kenpachi being in the same strength category as Hollow Ichigo than Noitora.The point was severity in injury, not regeneration/strength.

Grimmjow and Noitora are trash in front of Hollow Ichigo.Hollow Ichigo can't perform on the level of VB Ichigo so I will have to refute that claim.

Kenpachi is the main threat even through I doubt he could take out Hollow Ichigo alone. I will stay with my original assessment. If Kenpachi takes out Hollow Kensei quickly, then team 2 wins. Otherwise, team one wins regardless of lacking the intelligence because they fight by instinct, which is more dangerous in this matchup.Who says Noitora or Grimmjow can't handle Kensei themselves? All of you seem to be forgetting that both parties are made up of hybrids, with the exception of Zaraki.

Well kensei smashed a captain into the ground and injured him as he was breathing heavily although love was not ready for kensei to be able to smash a captain into the ground before he could react is fast and he even broke hachi's kidou who said that he never saw someone breaking that spell with pure strength alone so he has shown feats of strength and speed.Are you trying to say that espadas 6 and up would be incapable of using such strength? And in Grimmjow's case, speed?

While i admit when kenpachi cut nnoitra it was pretty deep and life threatening he still survived and was able to move to attack again although incredibly weak he could still move so i doubt he was nearly cut in half.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/312/09/The only thing that saved Noitora is not being close enough to Kenpachi's sword; otherwise he would've been split into two.
http://www.readbleach.com/?ch=314

But if you consider the damage hollowfied ichigo took and how fast it grew back it's at a totally different level to nnoitra's regeneration imean something huge grew out in the matter of a second.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/220/04/My point is the difference in seriousness/severity of the injury inflicted, not the regeneration speed. I doubt hollowfied Ichigo will grow another head/body if he were to be decapitated.

And yes they are stupid animals but like stupid animals they don't think which would make them natural killer's they see something move they attack simple and to be honest the other three would fight that way anyway lol.Difference is one group can work as a team or formulate a plan while the other is just...not mentally capable.

[justin43]

I need you to prove to me that Hollow Ichigo does not equal Ichigo + Hichigo especially they were both fighting one another in their inner battle, which should mean that both powers are used, but there is no one at the wheel. Vichigo is not even getting half of Hichigo's power, which is suppose to be greater than Ulquiorra by itself. Clearly, Hollow Ichigo >>>> Vichigo and therefore Hollow Ichigo >>> Grimmjow and Noitora.

[Terabane]

By the same token, there's been no indication that hollowfied Ichigo and Kensei have trememdous speed.

This is still hollowfied Ichigo though, with practically no consciencious decision making. Regardless of Ogichi's power...

IMO there's a big difference between getting your arm chopped off (hollowfied Ichigo) and being cut right down the middle (Noitora).

And animals can't make intelligent decisions like humans and mid/high tier espada. While Grimmjow, Noitora and Zaraki can formulate a simple strategy and work together, the animals will just act like savages, which will make for a fun experience for Zaraki's bloodthirsty trio.

110yrs experience my ass. Those subconscious hollow forms couldn't even make coherent verbiage. It's psycho brains vs incopetent hollows. When it comes down to who will win, the verdict is unanimous.



EDIT: Kensei's hollow form won't be a problem for anyone. The only reason people think is powerful is because the Shinji's crew failed against him. And that itself is a flawed conclusion, seeing that the only one who got hit by him is Love, who was unprepared to begin with (FFS they hadn't even gotten a good grasp of the situation they were in). And he wasn't a goner either; Rose was the only one who was clearly not in good condition, which was after getting a kick to the head from hollowfied Mashiro.

How is that even possible? The only one to ever think of a plan in the slightest was Kenpachi when he was in Tousens bankai. Not to mention Kenpachi wouldn't want to fight with them two anyway, infact those 3 would be possibly the 3 worst people to team up.

[Oxyuranus]

How is that even possible? The only one to ever think of a plan in the slightest was Kenpachi when he was in Tousens bankai. Not to mention Kenpachi wouldn't want to fight with them two anyway, infact those 3 would be possibly the 3 worst people to team up.

In the battle arena you have to assume that they are working together, that there is a common purpose for them to team up.

Also, as far as plans go, how can you say that? Noi had a plan to try and kill or atleast beat Nel (which he succeeded in doing i.e. turning her into a kid, which he also colaborated with Syazel to do). Grimjow had a plan to kill all of the good guys he could find when he first went to the human world. He also had a plan to free Inoue so she could heal Ichigo. Kenpachi has come up with several plans as well, which you stated. So now, tell me, why couldnt they come up with a plan again?

Justin43,

How about you prove to me that Hichigo is stronger then V Ichigo. I mean Ichigo beat Hichigo in their internal struggle to obtain his vizard powers. He dominated him and took control. I think its pretty fucking safe to assume that as of now Ichigo>Hichigo (keep your speculation to yourself about what might come to be with Hichigo later on please) or else he wouldnt be wearing the vizard mask right?

Regarding regenative abilities, soone said that Hichigo owns Noi in this degree. I beg to differ. I only recall Hollow Ichigo bringing back his arm, something which Noi did just as if not faster when fighting kenpachi!

Everyone here keeps saying that hollow ichigo>all and quite frankly I find this to be bullshit. Every time Hichigo comes out he runs amuck but his adversaries never try to do him in! (minus Byakyua) Even in the hollowfication during Ichigos vizard training none of the vizards were trying to kill him. Same goes for hollow Kensei as I stated earlier.

The hollw forms have virtually no mind and no purpose other then to kill. Kenny and the espada have intent to kill, ability to strategize and Kenpachi is such a fricken wild card in his own right that his power alone may be too much for them. You guys are seriously giving these hollow forms way too much credit in my opinion and definately too much credit to hichigo as of now (Im sure he will grow and come back in the story at some point but right now he got his ass beat by Ichigo and is, in his words, "The horse".

Kenny, Noi and Grim takes this

[punni]

How about you prove to me that Hichigo is stronger then V Ichigo. I mean Ichigo beat Hichigo in their internal struggle to obtain his vizard powers. He dominated him and took control. I think its pretty fucking safe to assume that as of now Ichigo>Hichigo (keep your speculation to yourself about what might come to be with Hichigo later on please) or else he wouldnt be wearing the vizard mask right?


That is one of the most stupid things I have read in the is forum (and I've read it here several times).
How can you even think that Ichigo subdueing Shirosaki in his own mind has anything to do how strong Ichigo and Hichigo are in the real world?
It was a battle of minds, of determination, and when Ichigo showed that he uses instinct Shirosaki was kinda okay with being the horse for now.
But Hichigo has way better control over "their" reiatsu and better skills than Ichigo.

And this still stands
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-193-page-19.html

But I agree that both Lizard Ichigo and Hollow Kensei would be mindless rampaging beasts, but I dont see how Nnoitra or GJ could do anything against them, or how Kenpachi could kill Lizard Ichigo.

[Oxyuranus]

That is one of the most stupid things I have read in the is forum (and I've read it here several times).
How can you even think that Ichigo subdueing Shirosaki in his own mind has anything to do how strong Ichigo and Hichigo are in the real world?
It was a battle of minds, of determination, and when Ichigo showed that he uses instinct Shirosaki was kinda okay with being the horse for now.
But Hichigo has way better control over "their" reiatsu and better skills than Ichigo.

And this still stands
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-193-page-19.html

But I agree that both Lizard Ichigo and Hollow Kensei would be mindless rampaging beasts, but I dont see how Nnoitra or GJ could do anything against them, or how Kenpachi could kill Lizard Ichigo.

Stupid huh? You apprently havent read as much as you claim then (LOL) Well, you are entitled to your opinion. Id like you to still prove it though. The only times we have seen Hichigo as in taken over Ichigos body and fighting somone is aginst Byakyua and aginst Hynori. He dominated Byakyua, mostly out of surprise but dominated non the less. Kicking the crap out of Hynori (or however you spell her name) wasnt that impressive in my opinion. I will change the statement some what strictly based on what Uli said about at its peak Ichigos power were greater then his as I think this peak is Hichigo. When manifested however he hasn't shown anything that spectacular to lead me to believe that all the hype surrounding him is justified. If I am missing somthing then please enlighten me. If I am missing a statment that says Hichigo is all that and then some then please prove me wrong. As it stands though, even if it was in his mind it was still a win. Hichigo's strength, to my understanding is due to his blood lust and his crazed balls to the wall fighting style. He fighst at his peak and dosent show the emotional up and down bull shit that always gets Ichigo in trouble. I have seen nothing written by Kubo that says Hichigo is that much stronger then reg Ichigo. Again, enlighten me and I will glady change my stance but everything you are claiming, unless my memeory is failing which is a distinct posiblity is all speculation. The only thing in the manga I can reference is Uli's words and again, that is assuming that Hichigo is ichigos peak power.

In short yes, Hichigo uses Ichigo's powers better when we have actualy seen him fight (which hasnt been since the beginning of Vizard training unless I am missing somthing) but because Ichigo beat him in their inner world means that it wasn't enough for Hichigo to dominate Ichigo. V Ichigo , to my understanding is Ichigo taking control of hichigos power. Thats what the whole vizardfication thing is all about right? That being said, why wouldnt it be safe to assume that V Ichigo, as of now > Hichigo?

Seriously, please enlighten me and save your stupid claim for sombody more deserving as I have obviously came to this conclusion looking at the info provided to us by Kubo, or lack there of and not just pulling it out of my ass due to fanboyism...

[Darkmaterials]

And this still stands
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-193-page-19.html

Ulq was unreleased when he said that.

We can't really be certain what reiatsu Ulq was analysing anyway, and how much of that Hollowfied Ichigo would gain control of.

[Peak]

We can't really be certain what reiatsu Ulq was analysing anyway, and how much of that Hollowfied Ichigo would gain control of.
Well it must have been a huge amount of reiatsu though.

It seems like he gained control a lot if Ulquiorra had said hes more powerful than he is.

[justin43]

I doubt anyone who say that they are stronger than him or her unless they are talking about their full power. Otherwise, Ulquiorra would have said stronger than unreleased state. No one in bleach has look at their powers in parts before. Why now? Yeah, what punni provided still stand until proven otherwise.

[Terabane]

In the battle arena you have to assume that they are working together, that there is a common purpose for them to team up.

Also, as far as plans go, how can you say that? Noi had a plan to try and kill or atleast beat Nel (which he succeeded in doing i.e. turning her into a kid, which he also colaborated with Syazel to do). Grimjow had a plan to kill all of the good guys he could find when he first went to the human world. He also had a plan to free Inoue so she could heal Ichigo. Kenpachi has come up with several plans as well, which you stated. So now, tell me, why couldnt they come up with a plan again?

Justin43,



- Noitora didn't have a plan, he simply got help from Szyael.
- A plan to kill all your enemies? Well thats original.
- Kenpachi came up with one plan

Also, in battle arena I assume everyone was to be bloodlusted not co-operative, but even if they are I only brought it up because another poster said that Kensei/Ichigo would kill each other. When Kensei and Mashiro worked together as such when they were both hollows.

[Oxyuranus]

- Noitora didn't have a plan, he simply got help from Szyael.
- A plan to kill all your enemies? Well thats original.
- Kenpachi came up with one plan

Also, in battle arena I assume everyone was to be bloodlusted not co-operative, but even if they are I only brought it up because another poster said that Kensei/Ichigo would kill each other. When Kensei and Mashiro worked together as such when they were both hollows.

He conspired with Syazel so yes, it was a plan. Also, a plan to kill your enemies is still a plan. You also overlooked Grim's plan to rescue/abduct Inoue. Seriously, they arent that stupid even if they all preffer to fight strait forward.

As for the hollow, they didnt really work together. They were simply attacking and it wasnt a corrdinate i.e discussed strategy. They simply had the same goals in their mindless state, kill the shinigami.

Usualy the author of the thread dictates the terms of the fight posted and nothing was said to my knowledge about Noi, Grim and Kenny not working together so my default I assume they will be a workable team.

As for if Kensei and Ichigo would kill eachother, I agree with you and dont see that happening. Kensei and the other vizards didnt kill eachother. I think its safe to assume that they would go after the non hollows based on what we have seen. Kinda throws a monkey wrench into thing since technically Noi and Grim are hollows but since they have evolved to look like shinigami I think it stands for now.

[TheLegend/MVP]

He conspired with Syazel so yes, it was a plan. Also, a plan to kill your enemies is still a plan. You also overlooked Grim's plan to rescue/abduct Inoue. Seriously, they arent that stupid even if they all preffer to fight strait forward.

As for the hollow, they didnt really work together. They were simply attacking and it wasnt a corrdinate i.e discussed strategy. They simply had the same goals in their mindless state, kill the shinigami.

Usualy the author of the thread dictates the terms of the fight posted and nothing was said to my knowledge about Noi, Grim and Kenny not working together so my default I assume they will be a workable team.

As for if Kensei and Ichigo would kill eachother, I agree with you and dont see that happening. Kensei and the other vizards didnt kill eachother. I think its safe to assume that they would go after the non hollows based on what we have seen. Kinda throws a monkey wrench into thing since technically Noi and Grim are hollows but since they have evolved to look like shinigami I think it stands for now.

Okay maybe u told Kubo how to write Bleach or something but if not how can u say that Hollow didnt really worked together and they are mindless? Even Grand fisher can think for a lowly hollow and those Adjuchas in Menos land when Ichigo and the geng got into when they frist entered Huedo Mundo they still work together even Menos worked together know where to fire their Cero but not in each other... and did u see Hollowfied Kensei and his VC kill each other in TBTP ?? and how do u know HIchigo which will be Shirosaki is stupid enough to kill Hollow Kensei when they both are in the team and if u put those 2 as they are when they just hollowfied then i would agree with u but when they have full control of them self and still stupid enough to kill each other ...

and the Neg rep was from me k dont worry i know u'll hate me

[Oxyuranus]

Okay maybe u told Kubo how to write Bleach or something but if not how can u say that Hollow didnt really worked together and they are mindless? Even Grand fisher can think for a lowly hollow and those Adjuchas in Menos land when Ichigo and the geng got into when they frist entered Huedo Mundo they still work together even Menos worked together know where to fire their Cero but not in each other... and did u see Hollowfied Kensei and his VC kill each other in TBTP ?? and how do u know HIchigo which will be Shirosaki is stupid enough to kill Hollow Kensei when they both are in the team and if u put those 2 as they are when they just hollowfied then i would agree with u but when they have full control of them self and still stupid enough to kill each other ...

and the Neg rep was from me k dont worry i know u'll hate me

can you show any proof of a higher intelligences from Kensei or any of the hollowfied captains? How about Ichigo's lizard form? Tell Kubo how to wite?!?! You kidding me right? Its pretty fricken obvious that there wasnt much brain function going on and that these captains that were turning into hollow were not the same as a hollow like grand fisher. There was no speech, no logic, nothing but bloodlust. It was the exact same as Lizard Ichigo. I think its a pretty safe assumption.

As for your neg rep, I couldn't give less of a shit about what you or anyone else thinks of me on here so neg rep away.

Its funny, many people here have concluded that they were essentially mindless yet you pick out my post to neg rep and criticize? Good for you Mr. MVP.

[smacharia8]

I need you to prove to me that Hollow Ichigo does not equal Ichigo + Hichigo especially they were both fighting one another in their inner battle, which should mean that both powers are used, but there is no one at the wheel. Vichigo is not even getting half of Hichigo's power, which is suppose to be greater than Ulquiorra by itself. Clearly, Hollow Ichigo >>>> Vichigo and therefore Hollow Ichigo >>> Grimmjow and Noitora.Wasn't even arguing strength but since you're so sure about the levels, why not start by explaining how it is that you know Ichigo's only getting a small fraction of Ogichi's power? Like I said before, the auto-hollow can't perform on the level of Ichigo or Ogichi.

How is that even possible? The only one to ever think of a plan in the slightest was Kenpachi when he was in Tousens bankai. Not to mention Kenpachi wouldn't want to fight with them two anyway, infact those 3 would be possibly the 3 worst people to team up.It's simple really. If they were incapable of cooperation then they wouldn't even be in the espada.

[Peak]

It's simple really. If they were incapable of cooperation then they wouldn't even be in the espada.
I don't think Nnoitra is good at cooperation at all.

He's in the Espada because of his strength mostly to me.

[shinji]

Yes they could co operate but not well it would be "stay out of my way" and every man for himself while the hollow's would fight the exact same way just killing anything they don't think is an ally.

And to be honest kenpachi and nnoitra have'nt been shown to be realitively fast so whats not to say the hollow's would'nt be faster remember smashing a captain into the ground is still fast so at least we know kensei is that fast while everyone else's speed besides grimmjow is debateable.

[Peak]

Yes they could co operate but not well it would be "stay out of my way" and every man for himself while the hollow's would fight the exact same way just killing anything they don't think is an ally.

And to be honest kenpachi and nnoitra have'nt been shown to be realitively fast so whats not to say the hollow's would'nt be faster remember smashing a captain into the ground is still fast so at least we know kensei is that fast while everyone else's speed besides grimmjow is debateable.
That's why Grimmjow should fight Kensei. But he probably wouldn't.

[shinji]

The weakest of the three fighting that beast i doubt he'd last long.

[Peak]

The weakest of the three fighting that beast i doubt he'd last long.
Of course he has the speed he just doesn't have the power.

[smacharia8]

@Peak: Under these circumstances I think you'll see a different side of him.

@Shinji: So what if Love was caught offguard? Last I checked, Shinji was the first one there and he didn't end up like Love either. Noitora and Zaraki may not be the fastest bastards but that doesn't mean they'll be beat by hollow Kensei's footwork either. Unless you can prove that Love would get hit even when prepared for battle, I see no point in bringing up Kensei's speed as a factor in this matchup.

And Kensei isn't that much of a beast either. So what if he broke Hacchi's shinigami-level kidou with strength alone? All the characters in question have hybrid power with the exception of Zaraki, who makes up for it with his own strength alone. Grimmjow wins...with ease, I must add.

[Peak]

@Peak: Under these circumstances I think you'll see a different side of him.
I don't think so.

When Kenpachi had came to fight Nnoitra he just wanted to fight no strategy nothing.

I don't it will change even with another Espada and especially a captain.

[shinji]

Well shinji did give them prior knowledge of how dangerous kensei was and to draw there swords it's just that before he could react and draw his sword kensei smashed him into the ground it was'nt like he totally blind sighted him he was just way faster then love initally thought.

[Peak]

Well shinji did give them prior knowledge of how dangerous kensei was and to draw there swords it's just that before he could react and draw his sword kensei smashed him into the ground it was'nt like he totally blind sighted him he was just way faster then love initally thought.
Wasn't he shocked when he saw Kensei?

[justin43]

@smarcharia8

The point I am making is that Vichigo has gotten the full power of Hichigo and that Hollow Ichigo has full access to both Hichigo and Ichigo's full capablities without the driver. In other words, Vichigo is suppose to be just as powerful as Hollow Ichigo once he masters everything, which is obviously not the case. Therefore, Hollow Ichigo > Hichigo >> Vichigo.

As for this matchup, Noitora never came up with a plan when fighting other than get help from Szayzel to take out Nel and waiting until Ichigo is worn out to attack him. Grimmjow never use battle plans. Zaraki only used it once, but the first thing he did was just fight by battle instincts, which the hollows will do.

On side note: Technically Hollow Ichigo can use a shinigami sword, which makes him an imperfect arrancar.

[shinji]

Initially yes but shinji did inform him to draw his sword or die and given his rank and experiance love would know full well to prepare for battle but was smashed into the ground before he could react.

[Peak]

Initially yes but shinji did inform him to draw his sword or die and given his rank and experiance love would know full well to prepare for battle but was smashed into the ground before he could react.
But I say that he was also shocked from what he had seen.

That also is another reason why he probably didn't draw his sword.

[Darkmaterials]

The point I am making is that Vichigo has gotten the full power of Hichigo and that Hollow Ichigo has full access to both Hichigo and Ichigo's full capablities without the driver. In other words, Vichigo is suppose to be just as powerful as Hollow Ichigo once he masters everything, which is obviously not the case. Therefore, Hollow Ichigo > Hichigo >> Vichigo.

How do you know that hollow Ichigo has full access to both Hichigo and Ichigo's full capabilities?

-----

Ulq over-estimating him doesn't mean Ichigo hasn't gained control of his hollow powers properly
In-case you forgot, Ichigo's power tends to jump up and down by itself.

[shinji]

Well he did have ichigo's tensa zangetsu and fired ceros etc so it seems he had power's from both but no brains just instinct like hichigo was talking about to ichigo.

[Terabane]

How do you know that hollow Ichigo has full access to both Hichigo and Ichigo's full capabilities?

-----

Ulq over-estimating him doesn't mean Ichigo hasn't gained control of his hollow powers properly
In-case you forgot, Ichigo's power tends to jump up and down by itself.

Ichigo has no hollow powers whatsoever except his mask.

[Peak]

Ichigo has no hollow powers whatsoever except his mask.
Exactly.

I don't think going faster than ever is a power.

[justin43]

Ichigo has no hollow powers whatsoever except his mask.

This quote says it all about how much of Hichigo's power that Vichigo is using. Not enough to even be able to fire a cero.

[Athane]

In the battle arena you have to assume that they are working together, that there is a common purpose for them to team up.

Also, as far as plans go, how can you say that? Noi had a plan to try and kill or atleast beat Nel (which he succeeded in doing i.e. turning her into a kid, which he also colaborated with Syazel to do). Grimjow had a plan to kill all of the good guys he could find when he first went to the human world. He also had a plan to free Inoue so she could heal Ichigo. Kenpachi has come up with several plans as well, which you stated. So now, tell me, why couldnt they come up with a plan again?

Justin43,

How about you prove to me that Hichigo is stronger then V Ichigo. I mean Ichigo beat Hichigo in their internal struggle to obtain his vizard powers. He dominated him and took control. I think its pretty fucking safe to assume that as of now Ichigo>Hichigo (keep your speculation to yourself about what might come to be with Hichigo later on please) or else he wouldnt be wearing the vizard mask right?

Regarding regenative abilities, soone said that Hichigo owns Noi in this degree. I beg to differ. I only recall Hollow Ichigo bringing back his arm, something which Noi did just as if not faster when fighting kenpachi!

Everyone here keeps saying that hollow ichigo>all and quite frankly I find this to be bullshit. Every time Hichigo comes out he runs amuck but his adversaries never try to do him in! (minus Byakyua) Even in the hollowfication during Ichigos vizard training none of the vizards were trying to kill him. Same goes for hollow Kensei as I stated earlier.

The hollw forms have virtually no mind and no purpose other then to kill. Kenny and the espada have intent to kill, ability to strategize and Kenpachi is such a fricken wild card in his own right that his power alone may be too much for them. You guys are seriously giving these hollow forms way too much credit in my opinion and definately too much credit to hichigo as of now (Im sure he will grow and come back in the story at some point but right now he got his ass beat by Ichigo and is, in his words, "The horse".

Kenny, Noi and Grim takes this

How is Ogichi NOT stronger then Vichigo?

Vichigo has no hollow powers. Ogichi has FULL control of Ichigo's Shinigami powers AND full control of Ichigo's Shinigami powers.

Ichigo's Shinigami powers are in Zangetsu, Ichigo's Hollow powers are in Zangetsu, Ogichi IS zangetsu. That's the whole reason there are these dark-side of the universe and black and white chapters.

When Ichigo fights Kenpachi, he learns resolve, now he needs to learn instinct. Which is a hollow, (a hollow has a mask to protect it's instinct since it doesn't have a heart). Ichigo also has to learn to accept said hollow powers. Or else their powers are diminished (stated by zangetsu himself).

I just don't get your logic saying that Vichigo> Ogichi because of the inner-world battle ;/, Ogichi was teaching Ichigo about instinct.

Ichigo is always bitching about his sword, w/o his sword he can't protect his friends. What did Ogichi do? He took away his sword. :amazed:. Old-man Zangetsu has even said pretty much the same things as ogichi just in a different way "Let's see if you have the right to wield me". Same thing as "im not going to carry some weak fuck on my back".

[smacharia8]

I don't think so.

When Kenpachi had came to fight Nnoitra he just wanted to fight no strategy nothing.

I don't it will change even with another Espada and especially a captain.So even under grave circumstances such as these, the trio will decide to die alone rather than survive together? I highly doubt they're that self-absorbed.

Well shinji did give them prior knowledge of how dangerous kensei was and to draw there swords it's just that before he could react and draw his sword kensei smashed him into the ground it was'nt like he totally blind sighted him he was just way faster then love initally thought.Or Love and Rose were still trying to grasp what was going on...

@smarcharia8

The point I am making is that Vichigo has gotten the full power of Hichigo and that Hollow Ichigo has full access to both Hichigo and Ichigo's full capablities without the driver. In other words, Vichigo is suppose to be just as powerful as Hollow Ichigo once he masters everything, which is obviously not the case. Therefore, Hollow Ichigo > Hichigo >> Vichigo.At this point in time, we can't take that as anything more than theory. We have no bearing on exactly how much of Ichigo's and Ogichi's power the hollow form has access to, let alone its capability to effectively control said power.

As for this matchup, Noitora never came up with a plan when fighting other than get help from Szayzel to take out Nel and waiting until Ichigo is worn out to attack him. Grimmjow never use battle plans. Zaraki only used it once, but the first thing he did was just fight by battle instincts, which the hollows will do.Grimmjow takes out Kensei (most likely by himself) and then they open up their eyes after using uncoordinated attacks+charges against Ichigo. We've only seen Noitora and Grimmjow fight once so I don't see why you're so quick to say they can't use any strategy.

On side note: Technically Hollow Ichigo can use a shinigami sword, which makes him an imperfect arrancar.Bleh...I guess...

[Darkmaterials]

When I said hollow powers I meant the extra reiatsu, my bad for phrasing.

High speed regeneration and cero don't seem to be things that you'd randomly learn from having more reiatsu.

[manicsfan01]

i think that fight would be such a close fight i wouldnt bet on it but i think team 2 will edge to victory.

[smacharia8]

When I said hollow powers I meant the extra reiatsu, my bad for phrasing.

High speed regeneration and cero don't seem to be things that you'd randomly learn from having more reiatsu.Thing is people are taking this whole hybrid thing overboard...next time we may hear that future arancar can use kidou and bankai, because the ones we've seen till now were not complete hybrids.

[punni]

overboard? aside from lookin more human and squeezing their powers into a zan-like weapon there are no similarities between Arrancar and Shinigami. and arrancar supposedly try to obtain shinigami powers.

bankai is BS ofc, but to learn Kidou wouldnt be far-fetched for an Arrancar.

[shinji]

Zommari's ability's where compared to kidou so they are not too far away from kidou.

[Yoruichi-hime]

i go for team 2 ONLY because i considered hollow ichigo as ichigo controlling hollow powers not hollow controlling ichigo >.<

nnoitra,kenpachi(O.o) and grimmjow are too much for kensei teamed up with the strawberry trying to control hollow powers!

[Rinda Man]

team 1 since just going by what we've saw of lizard ichigo he was already a beast, having control over both shinigami and hollow powers certainly makes him a powerful son of a bitch, very likely to be enough to take out those 3 with some help from kensei.

[TheLegend/MVP]

i dont think he needs any help at all ...

[smacharia8]

FACT: Ichigo needed hollow powers to tie with Zaraki.
FACT: Both Grimmjow and Noitora are hybrids, with more intelligence than team 1.
FACT: There's no proof that hollowfied Ichigo is in possession of all of Ichigo's power.
FACT: Hell, even Kensei's punch to Love was no different from his shikai, and Love wasn't badly injured at all.

[Terabane]

FACT: Ichigo needed hollow powers to tie with Zaraki.
FACT: Both Grimmjow and Noitora are hybrids, with more intelligence than team 1.
FACT: There's no proof that hollowfied Ichigo is in possession of all of Ichigo's power.
FACT: Hell, even Kensei's punch to Love was no different from his shikai, and Love wasn't badly injured at all.


- Well the first one isn't a fact at all, no hollow powers were used against Zaraki.
- They are hybrids, who just like to fight.
- That is true, but he also possesses even more abilities than Ichigo anyway and would of caused a 100+ year old ex captain to go Vaizard, which a normal Vaizard masked was toying with Grimmjow
- Need to look at the scan.

[justin43]

Fact one is wrong for this reason. Hichigo was not as strong then as he is now with Ichigo. Since Ichigo only knew shikai at the time and not even at a mastered level, Hichigo was probably not that much stronger since they are suppose to be one and the same.

This is a fact.
Fact: Hichigo grows stronger each time Ichigo grows stronger. This is stated indirectly in their inner battle by Hichigo when Ichigo asked how did he get bankai. Hichigo said that he learned it the same time Ichigo did. Hence, Hichigo gets stronger every time Ichigo does. Therefore, your point about Ichigo using Hichigo powers to defeat Zaraki doesn't help since the Hichigo side of the powers are much stronger now than they were when the Zaraki fight took place.

Theory: Hollow Ichigo is Hichigo + Ichigo. Hollowfication involves turning the entire soul(both sides) into a hollow. At the time of Hollow Ichigo, both Ichigo and Hichigo were using their powers against one another in their inner battle, which should mean that Hollow Ichigo has both powers. Hollow Ichigo can and was using Ichigo's bankai blade. Just before you say Hichigo can too, think about this. Ulquiorra made a clear distinction between Hichigo and Ichigo's power when he say one moment his power is trash and the next moment is higher than his. This should say that Hichigo has his own powers separate from Ichigo. This is the point of the vaizard mask: to use the ability of the hollow side, but with control. Now, you notice that Hollow Ichigo is far stronger than Vichigo, who defeated Grimmjow and should be around Zaraki's level. We know that Vichigo is only getting a portion of Hichigo's powers. Now, if Hollow Ichigo is so much stronger than Vichigo, should it suggest that Hollow Ichigo is using a far greater potion or even all of Hichigo's abilities as well as Ichigo's?:amazed:

Sorry for the long post.:amused:

[shinji]

FACT: Ichigo needed hollow powers to tie with Zaraki.
FACT: Both Grimmjow and Noitora are hybrids, with more intelligence than team 1.
FACT: There's no proof that hollowfied Ichigo is in possession of all of Ichigo's power.
FACT: Hell, even Kensei's punch to Love was no different from his shikai, and Love wasn't badly injured at all.
Fact one : Agreed

Fact two :Again yes they do but that would'nt be hard

Fact three : Dunno besides getsuga tensho and faster movements (and we don't know who is faster hollowfied ichigo could have been faster) he's missing nothing and the cero would pack more of a punch then ichigo's gt.

Fact four:Are you comparing a run of the mil hollow to a captain level shinigami?

Kensei blew it away easily without breaking a sweat while in hollow form he cloppered love and did cause him some injury because he was breathing heavy and had the appearance that he took some damage.

[smacharia8]

Fact one is wrong for this reason. Hichigo was not as strong then as he is now with Ichigo. Since Ichigo only knew shikai at the time and not even at a mastered level, Hichigo was probably not that much stronger since they are suppose to be one and the same.

This is a fact.
Fact: Hichigo grows stronger each time Ichigo grows stronger. This is stated indirectly in their inner battle by Hichigo when Ichigo asked how did he get bankai. Hichigo said that he learned it the same time Ichigo did. Hence, Hichigo gets stronger every time Ichigo does. Therefore, your point about Ichigo using Hichigo powers to defeat Zaraki doesn't help since the Hichigo side of the powers are much stronger now than they were when the Zaraki fight took place.Ichigo's first powerup vs Zaraki (after getting stabbed) was due to working with Zangetsu. The second powerup (bankai) only taught him to use Zangetsu's power (as well as his own)...constantly. The only reason why Ogichi's power is greater than Ichigo's right now is because he started devouring his soul.
http://www.readbleach.com/?ch=189
http://www.readbleach.com/?ch=190
http://www.readbleach.com/?ch=193
http://www.readbleach.com/?ch=212
http://www.readbleach.com/?ch=218
http://www.readbleach.com/?ch=220

Hichigo's power level prior to bankai training is irrelevant when both Ichigo and Zangetsu put their all into that final blow.

Theory: Hollow Ichigo is Hichigo + Ichigo. Hollowfication involves turning the entire soul(both sides) into a hollow. At the time of Hollow Ichigo, both Ichigo and Hichigo were using their powers against one another in their inner battle, which should mean that Hollow Ichigo has both powers. Hollow Ichigo can and was using Ichigo's bankai blade. Just before you say Hichigo can too, think about this. Ulquiorra made a clear distinction between Hichigo and Ichigo's power when he say one moment his power is trash and the next moment is higher than his. This should say that Hichigo has his own powers separate from Ichigo. This is the point of the vaizard mask: to use the ability of the hollow side, but with control. Now, you notice that Hollow Ichigo is far stronger than Vichigo, who defeated Grimmjow and should be around Zaraki's level. We know that Vichigo is only getting a portion of Hichigo's powers. Now, if Hollow Ichigo is so much stronger than Vichigo, should it suggest that Hollow Ichigo is using a far greater potion or even all of Hichigo's abilities as well as Ichigo's?:amazed:

Sorry for the long post.:amused:Not conslusive enough...simply because Ichigo's spirit body is in auto-pilot mode (while he's in a confrontation with Ogichi) doesn't mean it can use their full powers. If anything, it'll be in possession of however much they're using against each other, either individually or combined. I find this to be more acceptable because the hollow form only woke up and upgraded when/after Ichigo and Ogichi removed their swords and also when they released bankai.

Fact one : Agreed

Fact two :Again yes they do but that would'nt be hard

Fact three : Dunno besides getsuga tensho and faster movements (and we don't know who is faster hollowfied ichigo could have been faster) he's missing nothing and the cero would pack more of a punch then ichigo's gt.

Fact four:Are you comparing a run of the mil hollow to a captain level shinigami?

Kensei blew it away easily without breaking a sweat while in hollow form he cloppered love and did cause him some injury because he was breathing heavy and had the appearance that he took some damage.3: There was no show of TZ-level speed from hollowfied Ichigo, and IMO VB KGT is greater than said cero.

4: Love was excited after the surprise attack but also showed no signs of distress so I'll maintain that the injuries received were nothing short of cosmetic/superficial for a person of his level.

[shinji]

I dunno about vb gt being more powerful then the cero i mean you saw shinji demolish grimmjow with the mask and he could have even taken him without the mask as he was in no distress and was danceing around him easily.

Love on the other hand was thinking of taking out his mask not to make it easier but to save his life just like ichigo pulling it out to save himself against ulquiorra so thats why i believe hollowfied ichigos cero is stronger than vb ichigo's gt.

[smacharia8]

Like I said once or twice before, I can't think of anyone who would fare well against a cero when their mobility is confined within such limited space. When given the option between taking damage and using your mask, I think the choice is clear.

[shinji]

True i would'nt believe many would but what does that have to do with how much power is behind it ichigo was in fairly limited space and had to pull out his mask to survive ulquiorras.

[Davo1515]

Team 1>Team 2.

Kensei could handle capt. lvls easily in H form and he's had a lot of training since then so he's definetely able to take out kenny, Hichigo could take out GJ as a novice vizard so one that's had 100yrs must be much much more powerful, and Nnoitra would b owned by ether of them. The only reason ichi lost is bc he was tired and wounded.

[smacharia8]

True i would'nt believe many would but what does that have to do with how much power is behind it ichigo was in fairly limited space and had to pull out his mask to survive ulquiorras.And what exactly do we know about Love's power level, aside from it being captain level? Just because Grimmjow, Luppi, Yammi, and Wonderweiss were classified as being of espada level doesn't make them equal.



@Davo: Dude, this is Kensei's hollow form, not vizard Kensei controlling his hollow powers.

hollow Kensei =/= vizard Kensei

[shinji]

Well he is a captain level vizard so i would rate his skill's highly look at how easy shinji disposed of grimmjow he did'nt even blink we don't know who would have more experiance love or shinji but i'd say they are pretty even.

And what i'm saying is that none of the vizards that were fighting hollow ichigo had to pull out there masks and managed to hold out for 10 minutes a peice but the very minute hollow ichigo readied that cero love was thinking of pulling out the mask because if not there is a strong possibility he would have died.

[smacharia8]

Then this is solely a matter of opinion. You find the vizards to be equal for the most part while I don't.

[Davo1515]

ok, but it is true that Vizard ichi>GJ. A guy who has 100+ exp like Kensei in w/e form should b able to beat any1 ichi can beat.

[smacharia8]

Well, not by default. And the form does matter, because we've seen the difference in performance between Ichigo, Ogichi, and the hollow form.

[Terabane]

Ichigo's first powerup vs Zaraki (after getting stabbed) was due to working with Zangetsu. The second powerup (bankai) only taught him to use Zangetsu's power (as well as his own)...constantly. The only reason why Ogichi's power is greater than Ichigo's right now is because he started devouring his soul.
http://www.readbleach.com/?ch=189
http://www.readbleach.com/?ch=190
http://www.readbleach.com/?ch=193
http://www.readbleach.com/?ch=212
http://www.readbleach.com/?ch=218
http://www.readbleach.com/?ch=220

Hichigo's power level prior to bankai training is irrelevant when both Ichigo and Zangetsu put their all into that final blow.

Not conslusive enough...simply because Ichigo's spirit body is in auto-pilot mode (while he's in a confrontation with Ogichi) doesn't mean it can use their full powers. If anything, it'll be in possession of however much they're using against each other, either individually or combined. I find this to be more acceptable because the hollow form only woke up and upgraded when/after Ichigo and Ogichi removed their swords and also when they released bankai.

3: There was no show of TZ-level speed from hollowfied Ichigo, and IMO VB KGT is greater than said cero.

4: Love was excited after the surprise attack but also showed no signs of distress so I'll maintain that the injuries received were nothing short of cosmetic/superficial for a person of his level.

Its all just opinion.

[smacharia8]

Your point being...?

[shinji]

Then this is solely a matter of opinion. You find the vizards to be equal for the most part while I don't.No i don't i rate shinji,love and kensei the strongest followed by rose who was only a captain for a year before urahara the mashiro who seemed to take to her hollow powers better than the rest then lisa,hiyori and last hachi because he uses kidou instead of a zanpaktou so would be more of a healer barrier maker like orihime.

And to be honest everything posted here is opinion because there are no facts.

[smacharia8]

No i don't i rate shinji,love and kensei the strongest followed by rose who was only a captain for a year before urahara the mashiro who seemed to take to her hollow powers better than the rest then lisa,hiyori and last hachi because he uses kidou instead of a zanpaktou so would be more of a healer barrier maker like orihime.

And to be honest everything posted here is opinion because there are no facts.Still though, there's nothing hinting what Love's power level is. If anything I'd rank him below Shinji and Kensei since his character didn't fare as well in the two encounters he was in.

And yea everything is opinion but there's a difference between opinions based on (or backed up by) referable events and those that are nothing more than hunches. Like theories about Ichigo's strength vs patchless Zaraki compared to those about Isshin's past as a captain.

[shinji]

Well i don't know where the isshin thing came from but he did have a captains jacket hanging around his shoulder (it could have been a bed sheet) so it is safe to assume he is but the time period is questionable.

And in the two encounters one he was fighting hollowfied kensei so you can't judge who is stronger based on that and two i believe you said that hollowfird ichigo became more powerful as hichigo and ichigo started to get more powerful (bankai etc) so love was the last one in and thats when hollowfied ichigo was really alert and readied a cero.

[smacharia8]

Well i don't know where the isshin thing came from but he did have a captains jacket hanging around his shoulder (it could have been a bed sheet) so it is safe to assume he is but the time period is questionable.My point was we can make more acceptable conclusions about Ichigo's power vs patchless Zaraki because we have evidence to work with like Ogichi's words and Zangetsu's as well, whereas when hypothesizing about what squad Isshin was in command of or durring what period of time he held the captain position, we have virtually nothing to work with.

And in the two encounters one he was fighting hollowfied kensei so you can't judge who is stronger based on that and two i believe you said that hollowfird ichigo became more powerful as hichigo and ichigo started to get more powerful (bankai etc) so love was the last one in and thats when hollowfied ichigo was really alert and readied a cero.And unlike Ulquiorra, there's no hint as to what Love's power level is compared to Shinji and Kensei, who have been shown to be aggressive and powerful. Aside from being a captain, there's nothing else to hint that Love is on their power level.

The reason why I say this is a matter of opinion is because neither of us can back up our claims with enough info to make our stance on the issue hold more ground. Like I've said before, there's no point in speculating on things which we know very little about.

[PreyedEagle]

If by Hollow Ichigo you're referring to Hichigo and not Ichigo in vizard form, then team one for sure. Hichigo and Kensei are probably both really strong, and although Nnoitra is strong, I think he could be beaten. And Grimmjow has already been beaten by Vizard Ichigo before.

[shinji]

Well sure kensei has been shown to be aggresive but i dunno about shinji he was properly protecting what he thought was an investment so thats why he saved ichigo he did'nt show any signs of agression he just calmly beat the crap out of grimmjow and we have'nt seen enough to know if love is agressive besides him punching hiyori down the back of the head but that's properly because he takes ranks really serious.

[smacharia8]

Yea...there's been no show of strength from him so as of now I'm not going to place him or Rose on the same level as Shinji, let alone Kensei.


@Eagle: Hollow Ichigo (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/222/02/) =/= Hichigo (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/220/07/)

[shinji]

I'm still on the fench with rose he's secretive maybe a little too secretive.:suspicious:

[smacharia8]

Well I wouldn't say secretive since we know very little about the vizards in general.

[shinji]

True but we have'nt got a mask shikai nothing.

Only that he was a captain a year before urahara.

[smacharia8]

They just need some time to shine; they've had no opportunities to show off their skills.

Unfortunately it may be along while before we see them in action at all.

[shinji]

I have a thought i was wondering if your growth rate with hollow/shinigami powers differs since mashiro is only a vc but managed to obtain her mask the longest showing she took right too them.

So with that is there a possible for a vc level vizard to be more powerful then a captain level vizard?

[Delta]

I have a thought i was wondering if your growth rate with hollow/shinigami powers differs since mashiro is only a vc but managed to obtain her mask the longest showing she took right too them.

So with that is there a possible for a vc level vizard to be more powerful then a captain level vizard?

I doubt it, a shikai vizard vs. a shorter bankai vizard? It shouldn't take long enough for the difference in holding the mask to matter.

[smacharia8]

I have a thought i was wondering if your growth rate with hollow/shinigami powers differs since mashiro is only a vc but managed to obtain her mask the longest showing she took right too them.

So with that is there a possible for a vc level vizard to be more powerful then a captain level vizard?I'd think that the longer it takes the more powerful the person's hollow is bound to be, and/or the softer (or less agressive/bloodthirsty) it is.

[justin43]

I'd think that the longer it takes the more powerful the person's hollow is bound to be, and/or the softer (or less agressive/bloodthirsty) it is.

That would not explain why Hichigo raped Masked Hiyori, who took about as long as Ichigo to get her inner hollow in check.

[smacharia8]

That would not explain why Hichigo raped Masked Hiyori, who took about as long as Ichigo to get her inner hollow in check.Crushing your hollow from within and maintaining mask time are two different things; I was talking about the latter. Plus we have no clue how much Hiyori's hollowfied form (or the other vizard's for that matter) evolved while confronting it from within.

[justin43]

I think we can safely say that Ichigo's hollow > Hiyori's hollow from that short fight between Hichigo and Masked Hiyori, who supposed to have mastered her hollow powers. I am making the point that the time it takes to suppress a hollow has no bearing on the hollow's strength.

[smacharia8]

I think we can safely say that Ichigo's hollow > Hiyori's hollow from that short fight between Hichigo and Masked Hiyori, who supposed to have mastered her hollow powers. I am making the point that the time it takes to suppress a hollow has no bearing on the hollow's strength.Oh, well that wasn't what I was talking about from the begining...but I think that may be right. IMO the most it would indicate is the instinct/resolve of the shinigami in question, since that was the case with Ichigo. But don't take my word for it. 8P


@shinji: I think your question need to be more specific...can't tell if I answered it correctly.

[shinji]

I'll try and make it as clear as i can.

The growth rate of shinigami is basically some people can become really powerful with little effort like shunsui and others with years of commitment and hard work like byakuya while others could work just as hard and would not be able to reach the level of power that some people can.

So what i'm coming to is that while some can acheive captain level because they have potenial superior to others can someone who is not as good as someone else could they have a far greater potenial with hollow powers than others.

[smacharia8]

I think it all depends on how close they get to their full potential. Assuming Hiyori's potential (ie bankai, etc) is higher than Shinji's, her hollow power will only rise to the extent of the already mastered abilities.

But this is using Ichigo's scenario for comparison, and the other vizards had hollow sides that lay dormant till the hollowfication. So it could very well be that the hollow powers are always at their full potential, regardless of how far the user has progressed in shinigami powers alone.

So in short, the answer is no. If Hiyori's potential with shinigami powers alone is lower than Shinji's then her hollow powers will also be below his, since both sides should be like copies of each other.

[shinji]

Oh i see but one thing is if they are always at there full potential then how come shinji can fire a cero and ichigo can't and then there's mashiro and her ability to hold her mask without training.

[smacharia8]

Mashiro also looks like the weakest of the bunch so the power involved could've played a huge role. Cero is also not that different from kidou, which Ichigo can't even use; you don't gain hollow abilities just by using a mask for the same reason you don't gain shinigami abilities (ie kidou/shunpo/shikai/bankai) by holding a katana in your hands and wearing a black kimono.

Take Zaraki for example; his sheer power alone is already a feat by itself but that doesn't mean he can use shikai/bankai/kidou or hand-to-hand tactics...unless he trains and works for them.

[shinji]

Oh would you be able to show me a scan where they said that a cero is similar to kidou just out of curiousity.

[smacharia8]

No but we know it's a manipulation of power just like kidou...only difference is the shinigami spells grant them more ways of manipulating it aside from making energy blasts.

[Seanc]

Team 1. Hichigo takes it alone lol.

[Hurr-Durr]

if its the holloized ichigo that fought in turn against the vizard captains, who did not even go shikai (save kensei i guess, his combat knife got to be shikai) then team 2 (that form showed no reasoning or use of tactics)

kenpachi already made sport of two captains like hollow kensei did, and hollowized ichigo seams lacking in all area's save power, and vs three power fighters i dont think power alone will cut it. Grim can fight from a distance in his res form (needles gran ray cero) while kenpachi possess the power to kill each of them off with one kendo hit.

Nnoitra got six scythe's so getting into his chest would be tough, so if Ken and Nnoitra can keep one occupied then grim can spam needles at them, if one gets stunned by the needles then ken can quickly kill one off with a kendo slash.

very very unlikely event x3 this would so never happen, but i guess it works out for the lulz =D

(and whats with the "turn into a furry" thing... what you guys think its cool to take a stand against evil sexual deviants? come on... grow up, its like hating 90% of cartoon characters because they are furry, cant kubo play on the menos (animal based hollow) into arrancar (human) turn back into menos (human/animal) natrualy you would get a hybrid... honestly why should it bother you?)

[Spectre]

Team 1 pwns. A crazy hollowfied Ichigo going on a rampage will wreak havoc. He wont die cause his super fast high speed regenaration. And then there's Kensei. He's a former Captain for crying out loud. And then there's his Shikai+Bankai+Hollow Powers!!Too Obvious!

[Hurr-Durr]

kensei and ichigo in hollow form showed NO reasoning abileties, not even wielding their zan's... as they are purely relying on their hollow powers shikai and bankai would not be possible in this state. severly hampering their combat efficiency. on the other hand we have three very adept close quarter combatants, one of which could keep one fully occupied with six scythe's, one of which can spam extremely strong needles at high rates from a distance, and move at high speeds, and lastley an nigh immortal powerhouse who can cut both of them in two with one strike.

i dont see how team one would stomp at all, they cant yous kido, cant form a tactic, cant release their zan's

[pumpkin13]

They're menos form hollows. In that form they don't have zans or shikai or bankai. Or kidou. They're not even arrancar. They are their Menos Grande forms (whether they're adjuchas or vasto lorde is still uncertain).

And after trying to hold out as long as possible, I'm officially accusing you of Zaraki fanboydom. "nigh immortal powerhouse"? Please.

Menos form Ichigo also has near instant regeneration as well, so I doubt anything short of complete incineration/eradication in the form of a cero or mega kidou blast would be capable of that. And the only one out of those three capable of that would be Grimmjows GRC, and Vaizard Ichigo blocked that, so full on Menos Ichigo at full hollow power I don't think will have much trouble with that.

[Hurr-Durr]

cute, i was just putting it out poetically, zaraki is nigh immortal, he has taken four killing blows in one match, and has been described as immortal, he is also a powerhouse, considering he can one shot strong opponents... so... i dont know where you are coming from, and i don't care what you accuse me off it holds no importance or weight, just keep it for yourself and prevent side tracking this thread

and instant generation? well sure, cut off an arm it it will grow back, but destroy the brain by cutting the hollow in half head down would stop brain activities and most likely stop regeneration. unless their hollowized state is not that of a mind controlled entitiy but more akin to a giant parasite with no centralized control like a brain, then yes incineration would be the only way to kill them... but i do not believe such a form excists in bleach, it excisted in high tier dbz villains....

[pumpkin13]

He acknowledged the onset of his own demise. Hardly immortal.

And you think Zaraki can simply cut Hollow Menos Ichigo in half down the middle like he did to Tesla? Baring in mind that Ulquiorra had previously stated Ichigo as trashed, than noticed that when Hichigo began to stir, his power reached levels even above that of Ulquiorra which he himself acknowledged. I doubt Zaraki could slice Ulquiorra down the centre in half. I doubt he'd win in general against Ulquiorra although I'm sure you'd argue otherwise.

The Vaizards were so pushed by Menos Ichigo that they had to take it in turns to go up against him, and i'd be willing to say that Love, Kensei and Shinji are all above Zaraki in terms of overall power, he has his eyepatch which is basically the equivalent of a bankai, which might be more powerful than the average low to mid tier captains bankai, but the three previously mentioned ex-captains also have bankai and vaizard powers on top of that, which would set them above Zaraki's level. And just to reiterate, they had to take it turns against Menos Ichigo.

[Yexley]

Full strength vizard bankai Ichigo couldn't hurt Ulquiorra with a GT and yet Ulquiorra admitted that his power can reach above his. This means that full hollow Ichigo would be stronger than released Ulquiorra. GJ would be quickly taken out and then it's 2 on 2. Ichigo could probably take Nnoitora considering he is fighting Ulquiorra now and Kensei should be able to take Zaraki. He was a Captain as well and has the added bonus of hollow powers.
This fight depends on how much GJ can do before being taken out and I don't think he could do much.

[Hurr-Durr]

that form of ichigo was NOT his full power, it was mearly just his hollow powers, ichigo's own power aswell as zangetsu's power where not in the equation.

and kenpachi slized nnoitra in half, or atleast where his sword hit, it went straight through him, had Nnoitra been closer he would have been cut in half. Nnoira has hierro strong enough to clock espada lvl cero's and mid captain levled sword strikes, cutting him in half should translate into cutting any espada in half, providing they dont escape the strike, but i only said he could if he got the chance..., and seeing how brain dead ichi and kensei where in that form, and the distractions Nnoi and grim could provide, sure... he could slize em in half with kendo...

unless ofcourse, you think that a no mask no shikai vizard =/= full power hollow/zan ichigo...

and i never said he was immortal... i said nigh immortal, dont make stuff up as you go man.

(and what you think i would belive about that is highly irrelevant and i dont see how it is related to this thread, again, keep your biased judgments about others to yourself, i wont say thanks in advance as i know you wont)

[pumpkin13]

the Hollow IS the soul, so Hollow Ichigo IS Ichigo, it would use up his base power in its usurption. And Hichigo and Zangetsu are two sides of the same coin, when perfectly balanced it's 50/50, when Zangetsu's in charge he obviously has a higher percentage of dominance over Ichigo's soul, hence the Shinigami in Ichigo. When Hichigo starts to take over he has the higher dominance. When Hichigo starts to actually manifest in the real world, he likely has 90% or there abouts of his full power, which, as they're two sides of the same coin, inculdes zangetsu's power. So both Ichigo's base reiatsu and Zangetsu's power were there.

Zaraki sliced Tesla in half, he did not slice Noitra in half. He gave him a big ass deep gash but he didn't cut him in half. You're essentally saying he didn't cut him in half because he couldn't reach, which is bull. He was atacking forwads and Noitra was moving into him. He did not slice him full down the middle though.

Hichigo is stronger than Ulquiorra, and it was Hichigo that began to materialise in the real world. I agree with Yexley.

[justin43]

Technically Ichigo is not a menos-formed hollow since he was carrying Zangetsu in full hollow form and look like a humanoid lizard. Just pointing out.

[fakeobsession]

Hollow Ichigo & Kensei because Hichigo can take Kenpachi ,Nnoitra & Grimmjow.
and Kensei> Nnoitra& Grimmjow

[Hurr-Durr]

oh mighty gods do you even bother to remember the chapters? he clearly slized straight through Nnoitra, look at the scans...

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/312/02/

we see the slash go through him, like a chainsaw halfway through a log

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/312/06/

we see the slash at his back aswell

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/312/09/

he stands up and uses one of his arms to keep his left half from falling off, clutching it to his body.

he was slized in half, had be been a feet deeper he would have been slized in two.

and ichigo's full power? come on now... yes zangetsu and ichigo powers where still in there, but had not surfaced, kinda like how zangetsu's full power did not surface against kenpchi untill zangetsu himself opened the valves... ichigo did have the power within it, he just did not have access to them, same here... his hollowizing form did not have access to the power. that hollow was nothing but his hollow powers, mean he changed into one for cryin out loud. thats a pretty big clue

unless, and i say it again you belive every vizard could hold their own against max power ichigo without shikai and bankai.

it makes no sense, that hollow did not have ichigo's max power at its disposal.

[He's a Mentalist]

Hollow Ichigo and Kensei take this.

[pumpkin13]

I argue the hollow powers in their transition encompass the reiatsu of zangetsu and his own reiatsu, I have already stated why.

And Noitra is way below Ulquiorra atm anyway. And Ulquiorra saw that Hichigo when he started to surface (started to surface, he didn't come right through, Ichigo was battling with him to stop it) was more powerful than himself.

So no I don't think Zaraki would be able to slice that form of Ichigo in half.

The reason the Vaizards took turns is because they could not on their own stand up to him or keep him at bay.

oh mighty gods
lulz.

[Hurr-Durr]

they still kept him at bay alone for 10 minutes each... surely you must sense that something is very wrong if they can keep him at bay for 10 minutes each without even using their masks.

and although Nnoitra is indeed weaker than ulq, his toughness would likely be above ulq's, he said he had the toughest hierro and as it might be boasting, he did back up his clam.
Nnoitra strenght lied in his Resistance, he had tough skin and regenerative abilities. a tough nut to crack, so if kenpachi can cut the espada with the toughest skin (therefore for the sake of argument, we could put him say at 10/10 skin toughness, then espada's 1-4 might range from 7/10-9/10 )

now if Zaraki can cut Nnoitra in half he could cut espada 1-4 in half... naturally this is assuming they just sit there and let him have a whack at them, which would never happen in a fight so dont translate this into ken would instagib them in an actual fight.
where i am going with this that against a slow and dump creature like ichigo's hollow form, kensei's showed some speed though but presumably he lacks ichigo's regenerative abileties, but, speculations. Now considering he has two teammates to keep them occupied... he should have ample opportunities to use his kendo on them.
and nether kensei nor hollow ichigo showed to have any iron skin to boast off, if they had it would surley have been played on in some way

[Seanc]

Hollow Ichigo stopped Byakuya's sword with his bare hand.

[NAM1011]

I feel like this matchup is fail. Kensei and Hichigo pwn GJ and Noi.

[jinkkoma]

I guess...
"Kenpachi, Noitora, Grimmjow" will win...
I like Ichigo & Kensei too. (especially Kensei)
But For me... Kenpachi, Noitora, Grimmjow are the craziest characters in the whole story...

(If they included Kurostuchi Mayuri in their team, They will definitely be the Craziest tem ever..)

[Hurr-Durr]

Hollow Ichigo stopped Byakuya's sword with his bare hand.

how is it possible you mix up the hollow that pwned byakuya with the abnormality that morphed in the vizards training hall?

honestly they are NOTHING alike at all, i doubt their power match at all, not to mention battle tactics. sides, its been played on that ichigo is like ken, and that he needs to fight like him (berserker) as thats just how they are, and apperanlty it is how ichigo has to fight to win, aka a win kind of fighting style.

ignore pain and enjoy the fight, not without reason it was kenpachi who made ichigo win his inner battle. so in battle tactics kenpachi aswell as Nnoitra and grimmjaw uses this battle style, savage and brutal, perfect against the hollow form of kensei and ichigo.

[pumpkin13]

they still kept him at bay alone for 10 minutes each... surely you must sense that something is very wrong if they can keep him at bay for 10 minutes each without even using their masks.

and although Nnoitra is indeed weaker than ulq, his toughness would likely be above ulq's, he said he had the toughest hierro and as it might be boasting, he did back up his clam.(a)
Nnoitra strenght lied in his Resistance, he had tough skin and regenerative abilities. a tough nut to crack, so if kenpachi can cut the espada with the toughest skin (therefore for the sake of argument, we could put him say at 10/10 skin toughness, then espada's 1-4 might range from 7/10-9/10 )(b)

now if Zaraki can cut Nnoitra in half he could cut espada 1-4 in half... naturally this is assuming they just sit there and let him have a whack at them, which would never happen in a fight so dont translate this into ken would instagib them in an actual fight.(c)
where i am going with this that against a slow and dump(d) creature like ichigo's hollow form, kensei's showed some speed(e) though but presumably he lacks ichigo's regenerative abileties, but, speculations. Now considering he has two teammates to keep them occupied... he should have ample opportunities to use his kendo on them.
and nether kensei nor hollow ichigo showed to have any iron skin to boast off, if they had it would surley have been played on in some way

a) I HIGHLY doubt Noitra's hierro to be superior to Ulquiorra's. And how did he back up his claim? Zaraki cut through his hierro without having to release his eyepatch, and Zaraki's sword is as blunt as a tea spoon. It just took Zaraki a little while to get used to the nuances in power of Noi's hierro. Fully healed, bankai, post-powerup since fighting Grim/Noi Ichigo barely scratched Ulquiorra's hierro. What's more Vaizard Ichigo's full strength GT did absolutely nothing to released Ulquiorra's heirro who just stodd there and took it. No, Noitra's hierro is not, and was not backed up to be, stronger than Ulquiorra's.

b) Even if 1-4 are still only Adjuchas level, the gap between Noitra and Ulquiorra has shown to be so vast that suggesting Noi's hierro is stronger than 3-1 is simply preposterous. Noi also claimed he was the strongest espada remember? Bull. Claims he's the strongest hierro, why, that's bull too.

c) all rendered null and void by a) and b).

d) The Hichigo that appears to the Vaizards is the physical manifestation of the one that Ichigo is fighting in his inner world. And he proves himself not dumb with not only his various ingenuitive fighting techniques but his pseudo-philosphical "king and horse" speech. You should not confuse his manic insanity for low levels of intelligence.

e) Enough to catch Love off guard. So that already puts him faster than Noitra and Zaraki (don't bother to start your Zaraki can ckeep up with shunpo arguement again, no one's listening). Which again leaves GJ, the weakest of them all in terms of power.

how is it possible you mix up the hollow that pwned byakuya with the abnormality that morphed in the vizards training hall?

honestly they are NOTHING alike at all, i doubt their power match at all, not to mention battle tactics. sides, its been played on that ichigo is like ken, and that he needs to fight like him (berserker) as thats just how they are, and apperanlty it is how ichigo has to fight to win, aka a win kind of fighting style.

ignore pain and enjoy the fight, not without reason it was kenpachi who made ichigo win his inner battle. so in battle tactics kenpachi aswell as Nnoitra and grimmjaw uses this battle style, savage and brutal, perfect against the hollow form of kensei and ichigo.

lolwut. Er... YEAH they ARE the same entity. The Hollow that appeared to the Vaizard's is the physical manifestation of the one Ichigo fights inside his inner world as I have alread mentioned. The one the Vaizards face however is allowed to achieve nearly full control of Ichigo's mind body and soul, unlike the one against Byakuya where Ichigo is fighting to is still conscious and partially in control of his physicality. They are the same hollow, just at different levels of advancement.

Just to show you that the one Byakuya faced and the one the Vaizard's faced are the same:
Here's how they both start out
vs Byakuya (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/01/)
vs vaizards (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/218/14/)
exactly the same

Difference is, the vaizard one is allowed to continue the process that's started against Byakuya , the process of taking over Ichigo's body, eventually resulting in the full body hollow.

They are one and the same.

@Jinkkoma: Surely Hichigo's nitrous octane feuled manic insanity far outshines that of Noi, GJ and Zaraki?

[Delta]

I argue the hollow powers in their transition encompass the reiatsu of zangetsu and his own reiatsu, I have already stated why.

And Noitra is way below Ulquiorra atm anyway. And Ulquiorra saw that Hichigo when he started to surface (started to surface, he didn't come right through, Ichigo was battling with him to stop it) was more powerful than himself.

So no I don't think Zaraki would be able to slice that form of Ichigo in half.

The reason the Vaizards took turns is because they could not on their own stand up to him or keep him at bay.


lulz.

Just disagree with the last part, the Vizards could stand up to him and did. They were, in fact, holding back because they didn't want to kill him.

[pumpkin13]

Yeah, changed my stand on that. Everything else still stands. And I see Hurr-Durr hasn't responded yet.

[Nocturne' Ichigo]

now if Zaraki can cut Nnoitra in half he could cut espada 1-4 in half... naturally this is assuming they just sit there and let him have a whack at them, which would never happen in a fight so dont translate this into ken would instagib them in an actual fight.


this is terribly dumb...terribly....even if they stood there i seriously doubt kenpachi could cut a release 1-4 in half....wut logic is there on this...

[Paragon]

this is terribly dumb...terribly....even if they stood there i seriously doubt kenpachi could cut a release 1-4 in half....wut logic is there on this...

Hes probably basing it all off Nnoitra mentioning that his hierro was the strongest, that same Nnoitra that mentioned he was the strongest Espada lol.

[darkp]

Well ı start to hate in every fight, there is always kenpachi in these thread. Some people overastmate him too much and some people underastmate him so much too. There should be a balance in these thread but as ı can see there is not.

Well this match up prolly an auto win for team 1. Yea noi , kenpachi and grimmjow are bloodthirsty strong guys but they are both medium tier level characters for captain level. And we are guessing hichigo and kensei high tier level.(ı am not sure about kensei , he could be a medium tier cause before he became viazard, there is a chance which he is a low level captain ) .And as we can see from kenpachi vs sajin+tousen fight ,when there is a power difference like medium level and low tier level, numbers will not effect the outcome of the fight too much.

Btw ı disagree with "kenpachi cant cut an VL half with a blow. If a VL wait and get a clean "kendo like shot", prolly cant fight anymore" ". That is almost the only thing which makes kenpachi medium tier captain. His insane strength. Dont take it from him and dont underasmate him. And yea noi prolly has the best hierro too cause that is what makes him 5th espada adju class strongest. But still as ı said those prolly wont be enough for high tier lvl opponents which have devistating abilities.

[Hurr-Durr]

... whats so hard to get about that anyways? its not like having more reiatsu makes their internal organs and bones harder...

and there is no way that abomination who was tagged by no mask vizards is high tier... no way at all.

[Seanc]

The only reason Hichigo didn't win was because his attention was focused on beating Ichigo. If you think about it, fighting Ichigo and the vaizards at the same time= high tier. And Love had to pull out his mask or he would have died.

[Rufix]

Crazy Ichigo and crazy Kensei win. 2 captain lvl hollowfied Shinigami vs 2 Adjucha and 1 Captain. Kensei should be able to take Grimm and Nnoi on his own (I assume he's blood crazed maniac from TBTP, but with current Reiatsu etc). Fully hollowfied Ichigo shouldn't have any problems with Zaraki.

That's it, unless Ichigo and Kensei start attackin each other.=P

[pumpkin13]

... whats so hard to get about that anyways? its not like having more reiatsu makes their internal organs and bones harder...

and there is no way that abomination who was tagged by no mask vizards is high tier... no way at all.

Well, it's interesting you should say that, because internal organs and bones have NOTHING TO DO WITH SKIN. Ichigo couldn't cut Zaraki at first because of his condensed reiatsu pressure around his skin, it would not be too unreasonable to assume that the arrancars have something similar only it is actually woven into the fabric of their skin as opposed to layered over the top.

[Physer]

There's absolutly no way Kenpachi, Nnoitra or Grimmjow (or combined) could stand up to the raw power of Hollowed Ichigo and Hollowed Kensei. I can't see Team 2 hurting Team 1...Hollows overpower the captain/espadas.

[Nocturne' Ichigo]

... whats so hard to get about that anyways? its not like having more reiatsu makes their internal organs and bones harder...

and there is no way that abomination who was tagged by no mask vizards is high tier... no way at all.

This is pointless....the organs are don't matter...the SKIN is wut would protect the organs....soo this argument is pointless

[Delta]

The only reason Hichigo didn't win was because his attention was focused on beating Ichigo. If you think about it, fighting Ichigo and the vaizards at the same time= high tier. And Love had to pull out his mask or he would have died.

There's nothing that suggests the consciousness that was fighting the Vizards was that of Hichigo. Sure, it was the same hollow - but nothing says that it was the exact same creature. If you ask me, I'd say there really wasn't any consciousness there, the Hollow just seemed like a mindless maniac.

As for the reiatsu and hierro, was it ever mentioned that the two are related? I know they are for Shinigami but did it ever say that a Hollow's/Arrancar's hierro is dependent on the amount of reiatsu the hollow has? It mentioned that it's compacted reiatsu but does the hollow actually get to choose how much of it's reiatsu it wants to put into it's hierro? If not, then Nnoi may indeed have the hardest hierro (he does transform into a bug - which are famous for their exoskeletons).

[pumpkin13]

I'd personally say post-powerup bankai GTslash Ichigo was more powerful than warm up slash pre-eyepatch release zaraki, and the former barely scratches Ulquiorra's hierro whereas Zaraki cuts clean through. but that's just me.

I'm quite certain it's the same Hollow, why would it be anything different? The one that fights Ichi inside is the same one that appeared to Byakuya and the one that appeared to the vaizards starts off exactly the same but it reaches a more advanced stage. It's the same one, there's no reason to believe otherwise.

[fakeobsession]

well I agree with you ^
but still I have to say that a match like this unfair...
You can't counterbalance the strength of 3 against 2.

[Hurr-Durr]

This is pointless....the organs are don't matter...the SKIN is wut would protect the organs....soo this argument is pointless


O.o i did not think i would have to say this... thought it was fairly obvious but i guess not... geeze.. mean look at what i wrote:

"... whats so hard to get about that anyways? its not like having more reiatsu makes their internal organs and bones harder... "

i said bones/organs as if, as you say skin is the deciding factor then Nnoitra, as i said would be the toughest espada to cut through... i said that saying ulq-stark is harder to cut through based upon them only being stronger is flawed as THAT would mean the organs/bones are tougher.....

come on do you guys even bother to read? or do i dare ask, think twice?

and the same one? the hollow we saw against byakuya was the advances vizard form of that hollow, the hollow that faced off against the vizards where, as the vizards said themselves... only a hollow... NOT a vizard, just a strong hollow.

[pumpkin13]

No the hollow Byakuya saw was not the "vaizard form" of it, if it was Ichigo would still retain his own consciousness and emotions, but instead he is transformed into a howling berserker. What proof do you present to back up your belief that it was the "vaizard form".

The amount of times that you've had to go "come on guys do you even read what I write?" have you ever stopped to think that it's because you don't make yourself clear enough?

[Seanc]

The only difference between them is that the one fighting Byakuya hadn't had time to completely change. He would have eventaully become the hulking monster, only with full consciousness.

[pumpkin13]

Precisely. As I stated in my previous posts.

[MissTaken]

Team 1's got this.

[Delta]

I'd personally say post-powerup bankai GTslash Ichigo was more powerful than warm up slash pre-eyepatch release zaraki, and the former barely scratches Ulquiorra's hierro whereas Zaraki cuts clean through. but that's just me.

I'm quite certain it's the same Hollow, why would it be anything different? The one that fights Ichi inside is the same one that appeared to Byakuya and the one that appeared to the vaizards starts off exactly the same but it reaches a more advanced stage. It's the same one, there's no reason to believe otherwise.

I'm not saying it's a different Hollow, simply that there's a lack of consistence. If it had been the Hichigo that had previously showed up (the one that was busy fighting Ichigo) then he would have been attacking differently (he has a very distinct style). The one the Vizards were fighting didn't seem to have a conscience.

[Nocturne' Ichigo]

O.o i did not think i would have to say this... thought it was fairly obvious but i guess not... geeze.. mean look at what i wrote:

"... whats so hard to get about that anyways? its not like having more reiatsu makes their internal organs and bones harder... "

i said bones/organs as if, as you say skin is the deciding factor then Nnoitra, as i said would be the toughest espada to cut through... i said that saying ulq-stark is harder to cut through based upon them only being stronger is flawed as THAT would mean the organs/bones are tougher.....

come on do you guys even bother to read? or do i dare ask, think twice?


you do not make any sense....but i will try to understand what you're saying..

If you are saying that because Nnoitra said his skin is the toughest amongst the espada then your logic is flawed...Nnoitra also said that he was the strongest espada and we all know that isn't true..

[NAM1011]

You cannot take what characters say as truth all the time. I mean GJ is my favorite character, and he thought he was stronger than Ulq. Obviously, that is not anywhere near true. Noi saying his hierro is the strongest might have some weight to it, but him saying he is the strongest does not. Being the strongest Espada means being the overall strongest which he is not.

[justin43]

You cannot take what characters say as truth all the time. I mean GJ is my favorite character, and he thought he was stronger than Ulq. Obviously, that is not anywhere near true. Noi saying his hierro is the strongest might have some weight to it, but him saying he is the strongest does not. Being the strongest Espada means being the overall strongest which he is not.

No, it doesn't. Ulquiorra has taken more powerful attacks than kendo slash with no to little damage while Noitora was nearly cut in half by a kendo slash. It wouldn't make sense for Noitora to have the strongest hierro since hierro is reiatsu-based iron skin and Ulquiorra has way more reiatsu than Noitora.

[Delta]

No, it doesn't. Ulquiorra has taken more powerful attacks than kendo slash with no to little damage while Noitora was nearly cut in half by a kendo slash. It wouldn't make sense for Noitora to have the strongest hierro since hierro is reiatsu-based iron skin and Ulquiorra has way more reiatsu than Noitora.

We don't know all the factors that go into hierro, it may be purely reiatsu-based, it may be partially based on that and what they transform into, it may just be a random percentage of their total reiatsu, etc.

[Hurr-Durr]

you do not make any sense....but i will try to understand what you're saying..

If you are saying that because Nnoitra said his skin is the toughest amongst the espada then your logic is flawed...Nnoitra also said that he was the strongest espada and we all know that isn't true..

Nnoitra just chanted that on his deathbed, we could translate it into a self boost on his part. and Nnoitra might (and rightfully so) have thought himself the strongest non vasto lorde espada..

also, ulq have not taken any attack stronger than kenpachi's kendo, unless you wanna say hollow mask ichigo's getsuga would slize released nnoitra in half?

wherever do you get your logic?

[eternio]

nnoitra lies.....alot of people claim to be the strongest, fastest, smartest, so and so in teh series. even back from the beginning. ichigo has pretty much proved everyone wrong. how he will fair against released ulq is gonna be funny. im hoping his hollow comes back and beats ulq like he said he could way back in the park.

but yeh on topic.......team 1...........crazed hollow ichigo is just wild. took all the vizards to contain his rage...imagine if he reached full power? INASNE

[smacharia8]

The vizards sparred with the crazed hollowfied Ichigo so Ichigo could fight THE REAL HICHIGO in the inner world. As it has been mentioned, KGT can't be compared to a slash from patchless Zaraki; they only bloodied Grimmjow up but never split him in half. As for Noitora being "the strongest" well you can't blame him for having high hopes. :p

[Nocturne' Ichigo]

Nnoitra just chanted that on his deathbed, we could translate it into a self boost on his part. and Nnoitra might (and rightfully so) have thought himself the strongest non vasto lorde espada..

also, ulq have not taken any attack stronger than kenpachi's kendo, unless you wanna say hollow mask ichigo's getsuga would slize released nnoitra in half?

wherever do you get your logic?

No i seriously doubt he was saying he was the strongest non vaste lorde espada...especially since we don't know if any of the current espada are VLs...

Soo the fact that we haven't seen ulq. face an kendo attack like Nnoitra means his skin is stronger then Ulq?

[Hurr-Durr]

no, it would not translate into that, in all honesty, nel was the former 3'rd espada, and would maybe have lost to released Nnoitra, so Nnoitra was a very capable combatant, with extremly thick hide to boot, we have yet to see anything prove Nnoitra wrong, so untill we do, Nnoitra having the strongest skin = fact, saying he talked out of his ass is speculation. if this is true then a kendo from kenpachi can drop any espada if he where allowed to pull it off.

as for his shout of being the strongest, this might be a lapse of memory on my part but, didnt he should "i'm the strongest" just as he died at ken's hands? if so then couldnt we translate it into "between the two of us, i am the strongest"

[Nocturne' Ichigo]

Nnoitra said he was the strongest previously..because right before he fought ichigo there was speculation about him being ranked 1 or 2 due to his words....and thus he was proven wrong....

Nnoitra was convinced he was stronger then nel before he blind sided her...he was proven wrong then....what is fact....just because a character says something doesn't make it true..especially when they are as arrogant has Nnoitra is

[Delta]

Has anyone considered that he may have meant it physically? He may as well be the strongest Espada if they all had to arm wrestle, it wouldn't mean he is the most combat-capable.

[justin43]

Somehow I doubt Noitora meant that especially since we saw Ulquiorra put down Yammy, who looks a good deal bigger than Ulquiorra.

[pumpkin13]

no, it would not translate into that, in all honesty, nel was the former 3'rd espada, and would maybe have lost to released Nnoitra, so Nnoitra was a very capable combatant, with extremly thick hide to boot, we have yet to see anything prove Nnoitra wrong, so untill we do, Nnoitra having the strongest skin = fact, saying he talked out of his ass is speculation. if this is true then a kendo from kenpachi can drop any espada if he where allowed to pull it off.

as for his shout of being the strongest, this might be a lapse of memory on my part but, didnt he should "i'm the strongest" just as he died at ken's hands? if so then couldnt we translate it into "between the two of us, i am the strongest"

Considoring you brought Nell up; She cut through his hierro on her first attempt without actually putting any effort in at all. So by this are we meant to assume that she's stronger than Zaraki, whom it took several goes to adjust to Noitra's hierro? And I don't buy the "Nell already knew Noitra so she was already used to his hierro" argument, as he has improved so the hierro that she would have been used to should have improved too.

[redfable]

Team one all the way

[Tefresh]

I would have to say team 1. They would just be too strong. Also, I have a question what would happen if Ichigo went into his Lizard form and took off the mask. Seeing as though the lizard is pretty much a super powerful hollow would taking its mask off mean arrancar. (the lizard form I'm refering to is the form Ichigo's body took when the vizard were training him )

[Nephi]

hm...I voted for team 1. but after reading many of the comments here I would now vote for zaraki&co.
I mean if we're looking at ichigo's fights then his victories are always not really sure. He never wins without help.
And when we think of hollow ichigo we just can say that he/it is (maybe) insane powerful but also just a brainless animal.

/irony on
Next, Hichigo...puhh...ok...he would actually own them all alone with --ultra mega zangetsu ultimate-- :O
/irony off

Damn I have no idea about kensei...that would all be just opinion, even more then the text above xD

Tossing a coin would be the best :P

[pumpkin13]

hollow ichigo evidently isn't a brainless beast. Battle lusty yeah, sure, beserker yeah sure, but not a mindless animal. As shown by his philosophical "King and Horse" speech, and the new ways in which he wields zangetsu.

[Nephi]

hollow ichigo evidently isn't a brainless beast. Battle lusty yeah, sure, beserker yeah sure, but not a mindless animal. As shown by his philosophical "King and Horse" speech, and the new ways in which he wields zangetsu.

with "hollow ichigo" i meant the thing ichgo transformed while the inner battle, that the vizards fought against.

[pumpkin13]

And they should be different in personality and mental capacity because.....?

[Nephi]

If you're talking about the same "thing" I mean, then the question would be who controlled Ichigos body while the inner battle.
I mean Hichigo and Ichigo fought inside Ichigos soul. So there must be a difference in personality and mental capacity because neither Hichigo nor Ichigo had the control.

But if Hichgo had the control your right. Even though I doubt that <_<

[Captainarmstead]

Hichigo barely beat Grimmjow. Kenpachi, Noitra and GJ seem to be about the same level. From what I've seen Kensei would be able to take one of them. So even if it is slightly in team 1's favor for a 1v1 and 1v1 fight it doesn't account for the third person which would push it toward team two.

[Seanc]

^NO! That was NOT Hichigo.That was Vizard Ichigo. Totally different person there buddy.

[Captainarmstead]

My bad, I forgot he just went Vizard and not it was not Hichgo. Stance is still the same since Kensei really doesn't seem stronger than either of the Espada or Zaraki.

[eternio]

ok, after reading all those lengthy posts......im gonna have to go with what i started tihnking....team 1 all the way

[Rinda Man]

now that i come to think about this again if its the hollow ichigo that ulq sensed to be stronger than himself then i say hichigo solos easily. since i can see the released 4th espada taking down those three without hardly breaking a sweat.

[Xova]

now that i come to think about this again if its the hollow ichigo that ulq sensed to be stronger than himself then i say hichigo solos easily. since i can see the released 4th espada taking down those three without hardly breaking a sweat.

That'd be true if we're talking about the Hollow Ichigo that is likely to appear in the next chapter, which I'm pretty sure would be a much stronger variation than the one the Vizards fought.

[xPyrox]

Easily would go to Ichigo and Kensei.

Kensei could probably take Grimmjow without his mask.
Perhaps even NNoirtra.
ichigo could take on Kenpachi with his mask and bankai and win imo.

And Kensei with his mask > Everyone

Really, it's two captains with a ton more power.
Against Kenpachi and two espada.
mostly kenpachi. ^

[justin43]

Everyone do know it is suppose to be Ichigo's and Kensei's hollow forms versus team two, right?:suspicious:

[Bamases]

As in Lizard Ichigo and Kensei with the cylinder things on his back? Than Team one probably.... If it is those 2. If Ichigo's form is really supposed to take after a lizard then he should be able to regenerate limbs, as lizards can regenerate tails. Obviously this doesn't only affect Ichigo's tail, though.

[Nikato]

Everyone do know it is suppose to be Ichigo's and Kensei's hollow forms versus team two, right?:suspicious:

I think they do, and I still think team 1 would win.

Kensei's hollow form owned the other captains easily in the pendulum arc, including love. The vizards would fighting against hollow ichigo and having trouble (albiet they werent trying to kill him). Love was having so much trouble that he had to pull (or was about to anyways) his hollow mask.

Captains are insanely powerful. Zaraki was playing with Nnorita for the longest time before finally getting serious. Ichigo didn't want to kill Grimmjow either, so he wasn't taking the fight "serious" as he could have. In hollow forms both Kensei and Ichigo have one thing on their mind: death. They want everything dead and don't care if they get damaged in the process. Kensei's hollow form seems to be impervious to damage and insanly strong while Ichigo's hollow form regenerates at the speed of light. I honestly don't think that Kenpachi, Grim, or Nnorita could win.

[Afrojack]

Well at this point it looks like Hollow Ichigo could take both Noi and GJ down in a couple hits, so I'd say him and Kensei could do this :amused:, especially considering Kensei is shaping up to be possibly even more powerful than Ichigo. Kenpachi is the only real threat here.

[GOWSRB]

Well if we're talking about Current Ichigo, then yeah he and Kensei will take this one. As it stands, it would appear that Ichigo could single handedly take down GJ and Nnoi by himself. And as much as I like Zaraki, he's not gonna win against two opponents that are that strong, unless for some reason Kensei turns out to be weaker than Kenpachi is. (highly doubtful though)

[kochito22]

Hollow Ichigo solos.

[Darkmaterials]

I wouldn't be suprised if current hollow Ichigo beat all three of them by himself.

Kensei just makes it certain that their team wins.

[Yadomaru]

Except this matchup is NOT "current" Hollow Ichigo, it's "Lizardman" Hollow Ichigo from way back in Vizard Training, as stated in the first post of this thread:
Crazy hollowfied Bankai Ichigo during vizard training and Hollow Kensei in Pendulum arc.

That said, Ichigo and Kensei take this. Unless he fought all out from the outset(which he never does), Kenpachi would go down so hard against these two it ain't even funny.
Leaving Grimmjow and Nnoitra.
IMO, Hollow-Kensei has enough raw physical strength to wear out Nnoitra, and Hollow-Ichigo would beat Grimmjow.

Team 1(Ichigo/Kensei) wins. Narrowly.
Personally, I'd've thrown in Hollow-Mashiro in Team 1, just to even the numbers. And because the mental picture of Nnoitra getting his face kicked in by Mashiro just occured to me and I can't stop laughing long enough to get that image out of my head.

[JuiceMe]

lols i think i'm by myself here but i believe Released Grimmjow is stronger then Hichigo. If it wasn't for Ichigo's supersaiyan factor in Orihime then I'm certain Grimmjow would of taken it.

So if Grimmow>Ichigo. And Kenpachi>Nnoitora. Then Kenpachi>Ichigo from what I can conclude ^^ Kenpachi vs Hollow Kensei would be great to watch though. But unless your talking about the Ichigo we see in the manga right now, in that case.. all bets are off. but for now I'll stick with Team 2!

[Hiwapi]

Hollow Kensei trashed 2 captains quite easily imo,with Ichigo hollowfied too i dont think the second team stands a chance
So i go with the first team

[JuiceMe]

Oh but hollow kensei was going up against the captains who were doing nothing more then hacking and slashing with their shikais. I thought Love was holding on his own against him, just barely. and the other captain just got hit by the other, so it was more like h.kensei vs 1 captain and 1 vc

[Razvan_Asakura]

True.

Anyway, if it's this Hollow Ichigo that appeared in the last week chapter, then, Team 1 takes this easily. Kensei might as well, just take a nap in the meantime because, the new Hichigo could probably take this all by himself. lol

[JuiceMe]

lols i think i'm by myself here but i believe Released Grimmjow is stronger then Hichigo. If it wasn't for Ichigo's supersaiyan factor in Orihime then I'm certain Grimmjow would of taken it.

So if Grimmow>Ichigo. And Kenpachi>Nnoitora. Then Kenpachi>Ichigo from what I can conclude ^^ Kenpachi vs Hollow Kensei would be great to watch though. But unless your talking about the Ichigo we see in the manga right now, in that case.. all bets are off. but for now I'll stick with Team 2!

[JuiceMe]

lols i think i'm by myself here but i believe Released Grimmjow is stronger then Hichigo. If it wasn't for Ichigo's supersaiyan factor in Orihime then I'm certain Grimmjow would of taken it.

So if Grimmow>Ichigo. And Kenpachi>Nnoitora. Then Kenpachi>Ichigo from what I can conclude ^^ Kenpachi vs Hollow Kensei would be great to watch though. But unless your talking about the Ichigo we see in the manga right now, in that case.. all bets are off. but for now I'll stick with Team 2!

[Nocturne' Ichigo]

lols i think i'm by myself here but i believe Released Grimmjow is stronger then Hichigo. If it wasn't for Ichigo's supersaiyan factor in Orihime then I'm certain Grimmjow would of taken it.

So if Grimmow>Ichigo. And Kenpachi>Nnoitora. Then Kenpachi>Ichigo from what I can conclude ^^ Kenpachi vs Hollow Kensei would be great to watch though. But unless your talking about the Ichigo we see in the manga right now, in that case.. all bets are off. but for now I'll stick with Team 2!

this makes no sense when Ulq. stated that Hichigo was stronger then him...sooo by default Hichigo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>grim

[Razvan_Asakura]

lols i think i'm by myself here but i believe Released Grimmjow is stronger then Hichigo. If it wasn't for Ichigo's supersaiyan factor in Orihime then I'm certain Grimmjow would of taken it.

So if Grimmow>Ichigo. And Kenpachi>Nnoitora. Then Kenpachi>Ichigo from what I can conclude ^^ Kenpachi vs Hollow Kensei would be great to watch though. But unless your talking about the Ichigo we see in the manga right now, in that case.. all bets are off. but for now I'll stick with Team 2!

I'm pretty much sure that SSJ2 Hichigo would be able to one-shot Grimmjow.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-363-page-5.html

Based on the fact that he torn up Ulqi's hand with ease while the Espada was in his second fucking resurrection. Now, that's owned.

[justin43]

this makes no sense when Ulq. stated that Hichigo was stronger then him...sooo by default Hichigo>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>grim


Corrected.:amused: By now, we should know that Hichigo kills everyone in team 2. Now, it is ridiculous to say that team 2 even stands a ghost of a chance.

:guitar:

[Nocturne' Ichigo]

Corrected.:amused: By now, we should know that Hichigo kills everyone in team 2. Now, it is ridiculous to say that team 2 even stands a ghost of a chance.

:guitar:

this is true...Hichigo is the only reason Ichigo is able to keep up thus far

:guitar1:

[Yadomaru]

Again, this is NOT "SSJ2" Ichigo from the last few chapters, it's "Lizard" Ichigo from Vizard Training.
Quoting from the OP post:
Crazy hollowfied Bankai Ichigo during vizard training and Hollow Kensei in Pendulum arc.

[Nocturne' Ichigo]

Again, this is NOT "SSJ2" Ichigo from the last few chapters, it's "Lizard" Ichigo from Vizard Training.
Quoting from the OP post:

wouldn't matter...team 1 still takes this

[Yadomaru]

True. But it still makes a difference because it's more interesting that way than with "SSJH2" Ichigo, who could probably solo Team 2 plus Hulk-Smash-Hollow Kensei.

[Nocturne' Ichigo]

true..

[justin43]

Lizard Ichigo probably could still solo, but with more difficulty.

[IchiGin]

Team 1 will win... no matter how you want to see it

[Rosh]

I think team 1 would win