The Reason Barragan will lose to Soi Fong

[Zero-sama]

Well first I don't see Soi Fong losing to Barragan, and this is the reason why:

When she combines shunko with her shikai is a deadly weapon or ability that can defeat many many powerful oppoents, imagine the power of her bankai, something that we haven't seen yet, and what if her last resort or ace is mixing her bankai with shunko, its a possibility and a scary one. Is gonna be a tough battle but she will end up winning.

[pumpkin13]

You imagine the power of her bankai, something we haven't seen yet, when we haven't seen any of Barrigan's abilities, not even the slightest. Remember her shunkou is also imperfect and ill-formed and likely unstable.

[Zero-sama]

Remember her shunkou is also imperfect and ill-formed and likely unstable.

Her Shunko was imperfect but that was a long time ago, do you honestly think that the gotei 13 Shinigamis came not prepared to fight in this battles, against this kind of powerful adversaries. They came prepared for this battles and perfected their techniques, if not then what is the point in being a Shinigami or trying to be the best, and not get killed, specially an assassin like Soi Fong, that has to be training always and perfecting her abilities.

[pumpkin13]

It wasn't along time ago, the SS arc was a coupla months back. Yoruichi is far superior to Soifon in terms of ability and even Yoruichi couldn't fully control shunkou, so what makes you think Soifon can do in a coupla months what Yoruichi hasn't been able to do in 100 years?

[Stri]

Granted the fight may not end quickly between the two, considering Kubo can drag things on in regards to what Soifon can do. I.E whether or not she has gotten better at Shunko, with the addition of bankai, etc. . Which I'm sure he'll take a while to demonstrate properly.

But still, Soifon should not be able to beat him.

[Zero-sama]

I think its possible, if Ichigo learn bankai in a a few days or a week, don't remember exactly the time jeje but, I know that he had some help, a huge help. Maybe Youruchi trained with Soi Fong in order for both of them to fully understand it and be able to fully use it. It's a possibility and I guarantee you that she will mix her bankai with her Shunko and put an end to Barragan.

[TokyoRacer]

She won't lose simply because good guys rarely ever lose in Bleach.

[paradise_found]

i like the way this guy does things. he's all like, "here's what i think... AND HERE'S WHY."

on topic though, zero-sama has a point. if zaraki or ichigo (or hell, even chad) can get stronger and kill someone that a few months ago they wouldn't have stood a chance against, why wouldn't soi fon be able to improve her shunkou?

she is the commander of the secret mobile corp after all- she should be able to stand up to one of the higher espada, even if it is the second. soi fon is probably a higher-middle to lower-high tier captain.

she did lose to yoruichi... but that was yoruichi. anyone else would have gotten wrecked by her shikai/shunkou.

but then again, kubo likes to be silly; i could totally see soi fon losing so that yoruichi can come and save her. probably another crying session too. damn.

[Sensui]

If he is a VL than she won't win (Or shouldn't, but as Tokyoracer said she is a good guy).

If he isn't a VL than she should win.

I think based on all the Espada fights thus far that's about all we can really say. We haven't seen a VL fight yet, and we don't even know who the VLs are or if there are even any right now. Until we see a VL battle at full power we won't really know. However I think Halibel's apparent OHKO of Bankai Hitsugaya is a bad sign for the Gotei13.

[karax268]

I think Soi fon is going to lose, not because I don't like her but because it makes the most sense.

I'm not going to compare powers because I can't. We know nothing about baragan and only a little of Soi Fon, but instead look at the story.
What if all the espada lose ( ulqiuora is going to lose because he fights Ichigo) then we have five fully armed captains plus 8 Vizards plus the zero squad against Tousen, Gin and Aizen.

Not much of a story right.
If Aizen wins that it's ridiculous and if he loses bleach is finnished without a final showdown with Aizen vs Ichigo

That's why she'll lose, as well as shunsui and whomever takes over from hitsugaya

[Vizard]

well lets make a little timeline perspective here.

we know since the end of SS arc (after Aizen left) to now based on what Shinji said that; it's been about 3 months after the arc, maybe a little over 3 months. Cause Shinji told us that Ichigo only gained 11 seconds use with his mask while training with them over the corse of a month. Actually I think Shinji may of said 4 months...but I can't reember for sure, I'd have to look up those pages.

Urahara/Yama stated that it would take 4 months for the Hougyoku to unseal. That was maybe a couple of weeks after Aizen left to HM. When Hitsugaya was in Kura town leading the patrol agenst the Arrancar.

We know that Aizen said the Hougyoku was at 50% (when he awakened Wonderwise), then I think he said a short while later it was at 70/75% unsealed before he went to Kurakura town.

That means Soi-fang (and SS) would of had about ruffly 4 months to train with her shunko.

I also have a theory that time in HM is faster then time in KT, or SS. An excelerated time could explain things with Nell being turned into a kid by syzel and Nnoirtora, while also used the #3 espada and a healthy time as a kid. While Nnoirtora got stronger. yet only 4 months Human time has actually past. Kubo seems to have this impression that the events in HM have moved along faster then events on earth, or in SS has. (again this is only a theory, but one that I think is pretty solid)

[dakidd39668]

I see Barragan owning her. Though I can also see her getting a lucky win cus of her two hit hacks. Btw Shunsui isn't losing to Stark. lol

[Mcloud]

That Soi Fong will win was decided very very long ago when Kubo gave her the deadliest shikai and decided to save her bankai for the stronger enemies same as for the other strongest captains in ss. Hush for non believers but Soi Fong is the higher tier captain and will own barragan for sure, imagine what uber moves she knows from yoruichi after being her favorite student for so long. Even byakuya who was taught by yoruichi can use godly techniques such as molting cicada. Soi Fong is an assassin and corps commander for a very long time now so she probably has added more of her own moves to an array of those taught by yoruichi. It's not some popsickle kid who only knows how to shout his shikai and bankai and swing it all around.

Going off topic: doesn't matter how much you want it or not but all of the current remaining espada will fall in these fights, it has already been decided by Kubo.

[JayR]

Soi Fong wining against No.2 is nearly as bad as thinking Hitsu could beat halibel.

Yorichi who was apprehensive against fighting byakua in SS arc ran around with no sword or anything fighting Soi Fon and won in the end.. really if she beats no.2 Plotkai.

[Lnrd]

Soi Fon shouldn't win shit. In no way should Bankai SoiFon using Shunko be stronger than the current Vaizard Bankai Ichigo. And, he's going to have trouble beating the 4th. It would make entirely no sense if she wins this fight angainst someone 2 ranks above Ulq. She's only around Byakuya's level, stop overrating her. She won't even make him use his sealed sword, unless he pulls it out for waht the hells.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

Well first I don't see Soi Fong losing to Barragan, and this is the reason why:

When she combines shunko with her shikai is a deadly weapon or ability that can defeat many many powerful oppoents, imagine the power of her bankai, something that we haven't seen yet, and what if her last resort or ace is mixing her bankai with shunko, its a possibility and a scary one. Is gonna be a tough battle but she will end up winning.

For starters, her shunko is far from mastered and very incomplete. Yes her shikai is deadly when used correctly but so far as we know Barragan could have an ability that aces her in one shot. We've seen nothing of his abilities so far, and being the no.2 espada we can imagine he will be one hell of a powerhouse. SS came prepared for a fight, but I doubt they realise just how powerful the espada really are. Hitsugaya is a perfect example of this: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-352-page-11.html
And don't use the excuse "Yeah but he's weak" because he's not. He didn't become a captain by being weak.

[Paragon]

She'd put up a good fight purely because it'd be a fight used to introduce her Bankai, but i'd expect someone would eventually intervene once Barragan releases and it may be two on one versus Barragan, although thinking about it Bleach don't usually do two on one fights so maybe either Yama or Ukitake may take over once a released Barragan defeats Soi Fong. No way would Kubo have her introduce her Bankai and then get one shotted, he pulled that trick with Hitsugaya already it'd be lame if he did it with Soi Fong as well.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

She'd put up a good fight purely because it'd be a fight used to introduce her Bankai, but i'd expect someone would eventually intervene once Barragan releases and it may be two on one versus Barragan, although thinking about it Bleach don't usually do two on one fights so maybe either Yama or Ukitake may take over once a released Barragan defeats Soi Fong. No way would Kubo have her introduce her Bankai and then get one shotted, he pulled that trick with Hitsugaya already it'd be lame if he did it with Soi Fong as well.

Yeah good point. I put my money on Ukitake taking over, but she may also get assistance from Komamura since he isn't fighting anyone atm.

[Lucky]

Well first I don't see Soi Fong losing to Barragan, and this is the reason why:

When she combines shunko with her shikai is a deadly weapon or ability that can defeat many many powerful oppoents, imagine the power of her bankai, something that we haven't seen yet, and what if her last resort or ace is mixing her bankai with shunko, its a possibility and a scary one. Is gonna be a tough battle but she will end up winning.

You title this "The Reason Barragan will lose to Soifon" yet you list absolutely NO substantial reason why this will happen. All you say is, "imagine her Bankai" which proves absolutely nothing. Soifon is a mid tier captain with above average speed and great hand to hand combat, she will be facing the Second Espada to whom we have not seen exert any effort in a fight what-so-ever. He may very well be faster than her, and better at hand to hand than her. Until we know what Barragan's capabilities are, such an assertment has absolutely no grounds and is speculation from out in left field.

[pumpkin13]

I think its possible, if Ichigo learn bankai in a a few days or a week, don't remember exactly the time jeje but, I know that he had some help, a huge help. Maybe Youruchi trained with Soi Fong in order for both of them to fully understand it and be able to fully use it(a). It's a possibility and I guarantee you that she will mix her bankai with her Shunko and put an end to Barragan.

i like the way this guy does things. he's all like, "here's what i think... AND HERE'S WHY."

on topic though, zero-sama has a point. if zaraki or ichigo (or hell, even chad) can get stronger and kill someone that a few months ago they wouldn't have stood a chance against, why wouldn't soi fon be able to improve her shunkou? (b)

she is the commander of the secret mobile corp after all- she should be able to stand up to one of the higher espada(c), even if it is the second. soi fon is probably a higher-middle to lower-high tier captain.

she did lose to yoruichi... but that was yoruichi. anyone else would have gotten wrecked by her shikai/shunkou.

but then again, kubo likes to be silly; i could totally see soi fon losing so that yoruichi can come and save her. probably another crying session too. damn(d).

(a) Yoruichi didn't train Soifon to use it, she kept it hidden from her precisely because it was so dangerous to use. And Yoruichi hasn't been back to SS for any decent amount of time since. He had Orihime going to SS and training with Rukia, so why wouldn't he take a frame or two to show Yoruichi training with Soifon?

(b) Because Ichigo and Chad are just coming into their powers abilities. Think of it like an RPG, lets say Final Fantasy for example, the first 20 levels are easy to get to, the next 30 slightly more difficult, but by the time you get to level 80, it will take even more time to get the last 20 levels than it did for the entire time spent getting 1-80, because the amount of training you need to do to increase gets harder and longer, hence why i don't believe Soifon could have perfected shunkou in such time.

(c) I lol'd. That's like saying, well Hitsuguya IS a prodigy and captain of real world relations so he should be able to take on the third Espada, who's a step down from the second, just as Hitsuguya's a step down from Soifon. NO. IMO Soifon was keeping up with Yoruichi because Yoruichi wasn't going hard on her, cus she didn't want to see her hurt, even though Soifon was channelling her anguish and hate into hurting Yoruichi. IMO Soifon is a low tier captain, made decent/winning through her hax shikai, she's only used shunkou once (and she lost that battle), so it's hardly citable as a winning factor for her.

(d) This is HIGHLY likely IMO. And maybe Urahara will show up and do something too... Take on Gin or something. Shinsei vs Benihime's blood mist shield.

[Kingkon]

This post is more like a Soifon cheering squad than anything else. The only "powerful" opponent Soifon has been able to beat was a fraccion and trust me Kubo won't kill the 2nd espada with that cheap trick, heck it wouldn't surprise me if her shikai can't pierce his skin which would make it useless against him. And if she shows bankai Barragan would release and pawn her.

[xPyrox]

Soi Fon = Gonna get owned.

Hotness Yoruichi is gonna come and pwn with a zanpaktu.

Simple.

Maybe after Soi fon'll kiss Yoruichi and they'll make hot love ;)
I hope they put that in the anime for a filler episode.. Thats the sort of filler I'd LIKE.

[paradise_found]

keep in mind that every theory in this thread is only a theory. when one hypothesizes about future events, one should try and refrain from using absolutes like "will" and "can't". "should" is a much better one to throw in there. especially when dealing with bleach. we already know that kt is a crazy person.

soi fon should hold her own and she should be able to put up her dukes and win the fight. we have seen just as little of soi fon's abilities as we have barragan's. her fight against yoruichi can be discounted as both "plot development" and "letting the good guy win cuz if she doesn't ichigo won't have anyone to help him get home".

soi fon's fight against ggio might as well have been the first one. a different haircut and a shorter explanation, but we basically got introduced to her shikai all over again. got to see what it can do when it's not up against a main character.

soi fon should be held in the same boat as ukitake and shunsui- we haven't really seen what they can do yet, and kubo has probably left them for last for a reason.

not saying she will win. just sayin'.

edit: ^^and pyro is 100% genius. best filler idea ever.

[justin43]

She won't lose simply because good guys rarely ever lose in Bleach.

Good guys do lose to obviously superior opponents, but they won't die through.:suspicious:

[Diels-Alder]

2nd espada getting owned by someone who belongs on an LGBT committee? I don't see it happening.

[metalchef83]

Bleach is too much of a fan service for any Captain to lose. So yes, Soi Fon will probably win via plotkai.

[Zero-sama]

(a) Yoruichi didn't train Soifon to use it, she kept it hidden from her precisely because it was so dangerous to use. And Yoruichi hasn't been back to SS for any decent amount of time since. He had Orihime going to SS and training with Rukia, so why wouldn't he take a frame or two to show Yoruichi training with Soifon?

*We all know Youruchi-san didn't train Soi Fong or show her how to create Shunko.

You say that he is not gonna take a frame or two to show them training? I believe that Karakura Town and Soul Society are ate risk of being destroyed or taken over by Aizen, so first of all Soul Society asked Urahara to help them enter to Hueco Mundo, and that was an order coming from Old Yama-jii. They knew that Karakura town and Soul Society where in danger, why wouldn't he let them train? It wouldn't be a frame, it would be a thanks from Old Yama. Remember now, Urahara and Old Yama are helping each other to prevent Aizen from wining, so anything is possible.

[Terabane]

Barragan hasn't even attacked yet in any form, good judgement.

[black_label]

Bleach is too much of a fan service for any Captain to lose. So yes, Soi Fon will probably win via plotkai.

unfortunate i have to agree whit this guy .that biacht has no limits whit her hax shikai

[AizenvsUrahara]

unfortunate i have to agree whit this guy that biacht has no limits whit her hax shikai

:rotfllmao::rotfllmao::rotfllmao::rotfllmao:
but you do have a point whit her hax shikai it still possible for her to win god know what her bankai might be

[Intense]

Bleach is too much of a fan service for any Captain to lose. So yes, Soi Fon will probably win via plotkai.

Soifon hasn't that many fans (in Japan), so it's no fan service. Pick another word.

[He's a Mentalist]

What makes you all believe that Soi-Fon will fight Barragan?

[AizenvsUrahara]

What makes you all believe that Soi-Fon will fight Barragan?

this
http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000096192/12.jpg
http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000096192/13.jpg

[r0kems0kemrobot]

What makes you all believe that Soi-Fon will fight Barragan?

what makes you believe she wont? she was looking right at him and talking to omeda saying "dont give my moves away" or something like that

EDIT: ^ thank you for beating me to it lol

[JayR]

Im still hoping all 3 remaining Espada kick the whole of the Gotei 13 to kingdom come.
Then the Vaizards will come in and we shall get some real action.

[He's a Mentalist]

It is still speculative; for all we know KT could change things up a little bit. Do a switch with Ukitake, and have Soi-Fon take on Halibel. Like with Chad and Ishida, which I hope, is the case. However, the probability for now is in the favor of Soi-fon vs Barragan which can change because, it is not certain.

[TokyoRacer]

It is still speculative; for all we know KT could change things up a little bit. Do a switch with Ukitake, and have Soi-Fon take on Halibel. Like with Chad and Ishida, which I hope, is the case. However, the probability for now is in the favor of Soi-fon vs Barragan which can change because, it is not certain.



Or the worst captain as well as character in the Bleach, Hitsugaya could go down for the count, and Ukitake could step in and fight Halibel.

[AizenvsUrahara]

Or the worst captain as well as character in the Bleach, Hitsugaya could go down for the count, and Ukitake could step in and fight Halibel.

that that would happen has more change than soi fon fighting halibel at the moment

[paradise_found]

Im still hoping all 3 remaining Espada kick the whole of the Gotei 13 to kingdom come.
Then the Vaizards will come in and we shall get some real action.

for all we know, the vizards aren't on anyone's side. shinji stated that they have debts to be paid; that could be a good or bad thing for soul society. just because they have apparently aligned with urahara doesn't mean that they are on soul society's side.

hell, urahara might not even be on soul society's side- aizen betrayed them and now he's trying to destroy urahara's hometown and take over the world? it's only logical that he'd help out soul society. but it doesn't mean that he's playing for their team now. the vizards could show up and start fucking with both sides. urahara and yoruichi could even help.

[TokyoRacer]

that that would happen has more change than soi fon fighting halibel at the moment


How so? Uktiake is sitting around doing absolutely nothing. So is Komamura.

[pumpkin13]

soi fon should hold her own and she should be able to put up her dukes and win the fight(a). we have seen just as little of soi fon's abilities as we have barragan's(b). her fight against yoruichi can be discounted as both "plot development" and "letting the good guy win cuz if she doesn't ichigo won't have anyone to help him get home".

soi fon's fight against ggio might as well have been the first one. a different haircut and a shorter explanation, but we basically got introduced to her shikai all over again(c). got to see what it can do when it's not up against a main character(d).

soi fon should be held in the same boat as ukitake and shunsui-(d) we haven't really seen what they can do yet, and kubo has probably left them for last for a reason.

not saying she will win. just sayin'.

edit: ^^and pyro is 100% genius. best filler idea ever.

(a) Why? Again, this is just like saying Hitsuguya SHOULD win because he has the strongest ice based zanpakutou.

(b) Er... not quite. Not quite by far. We've seen that she has decent reaction time, more than decent shunpo, poorly controlled yet still powerful shunkou (with a wind element it would seem) and a lame ass hax shikai.
Compared to Barrigan.... where we've seen nothing of his abilities whatsoever. Just that he likely has an inferiority/superiority complex by having a Throne, having his lackeys call him Emperor when he's actually number 2.

(c) And god how boring and predictable THAT was. She doesn't use her shunkou, so by your logic ("her fight against yoruichi can be discounted") we can discount her shunkou. Which left her with what, her lame ass hax shikai. It's pretty predictable how most battles will end with Soifon, oh look, double touch bam their gone. And it's boring. I hope that Barrigan does force her to use bankai then proceeds to f*ck her tiny little egotistical skull into the ground.

(d) Barrigan is just as much a "main" character as Yoruichi, he's one of the big three Espada, the climax of this section of the manga. And the only reason we've seen more of her is cus we've known about her for longer. Even then we haven't even seen her Zan let alone shikai.

[paradise_found]

(a) Why? Again, this is just like saying Hitsuguya SHOULD win because he has the strongest ice based zanpakutou.

(b) Er... not quite. Not quite by far. We've seen that she has decent reaction time, more than decent shunpo, poorly controlled yet still powerful shunkou (with a wind element it would seem) and a lame ass hax shikai.
Compared to Barrigan.... where we've seen nothing of his abilities whatsoever. Just that he likely has an inferiority/superiority complex by having a Throne, having his lackeys call him Emperor when he's actually number 2.

(c) And god how boring and predictable THAT was. She doesn't use her shunkou, so by your logic ("her fight against yoruichi can be discounted") we can discount her shunkou. Which left her with what, her lame ass hax shikai. It's pretty predictable how most battles will end with Soifon, oh look, double touch bam their gone. And it's boring. I hope that Barrigan does force her to use bankai then proceeds to f*ck her tiny little egotistical skull into the ground.

(d) Barrigan is just as much a "main" character as Yoruichi, he's one of the big three Espada, the climax of this section of the manga. And the only reason we've seen more of her is cus we've known about her for longer. Even then we haven't even seen her Zan let alone shikai.

a) just because the blade is strong doesn't mean the wielder is strong enough to properly utilize it.

b) valid point here. however, in the extremely likely event that she has improved (not mastered) her shunkou, we're at square-one at the end of her fight with ggio vega; if soi fon has the ability to combine an improved shunkou with her bankai, it would be safe to say she's stronger than a bare-handed yoruichi.

c) 'bout the same as above. and you could be very correct here as well; soi fon could lose very swiftly to a released barragan. or we could all realize that this is bleach and unless she's saved by yoruichi, she'll pull out the win somehow.

d) barragan and yoruichi both being of equal importance? wtf? during the soul society arc, yoruichi was one of the most important characters PLUS she was a good-guy. barragan, who has spoken all of a paragraph this entire series, comes nowhere near her level of importance, second espada or not. we know more about her because she is a main character who will triumph in the end. we know nothing about barragan becuse he is a number with a mustache who will be dead by the end of 2009.

[Exploits]

Why is anyone even arguing this at all?

Barragan has done nothing but talk since this all began. All you can do is speculate and pull out random conclusions from your rear-end.

Stop debating anyway and just wait, their fight is inevitable to begin with, and there's nothing theoretical about all this once it's done.

[paradise_found]

brilliant!

[Whyte Bler 000]

if people are doubting shunsui can beat stark, how the hell can you even think for a second soi fon will beat Barragan.

Shunku perfected, no way. Soul Society was what 3 months ago , and if she had been working on it for years to get it to that point there is no way it could be perfected.

Shikai, the only time we've seen her land a hit with it is against barehanded opponents. Nnoitra released with six massive scythes. Nell released with a Lance. If Ulquiorra releases with a weapon, than there is no doubt Barragan will. How will a claw get passed a sword?

Hitsugaya, the child prodigy was one shoted by Halibel #3. Even if Soi Fon took over after Yoruichi escaped SS, she wouldnt have been at a captains level, she was just a kid. Talented, but not like Gin, or Hitsu. There really is no way she will win this fight.

[pumpkin13]

a) just because the blade is strong doesn't mean the wielder is strong enough to properly utilize it.

b) valid point here. however, in the extremely likely event that she has improved (not mastered) her shunkou, we're at square-one at the end of her fight with ggio vega; if soi fon has the ability to combine an improved shunkou with her bankai, it would be safe to say she's stronger than a bare-handed yoruichi.

c) 'bout the same as above. and you could be very correct here as well; soi fon could lose very swiftly to a released barragan. or we could all realize that this is bleach and unless she's saved by yoruichi, she'll pull out the win somehow.

d) barragan and yoruichi both being of equal importance? wtf? during the soul society arc, yoruichi was one of the most important characters PLUS she was a good-guy. barragan, who has spoken all of a paragraph this entire series, comes nowhere near her level of importance, second espada or not. we know more about her because she is a main character who will triumph in the end. we know nothing about barragan becuse he is a number with a mustache who will be dead by the end of 2009.

a) Hitsuguya is a prodigy/genius, they ain't referring to his sword when they say this. As for the put up her dukes and fight. There's only two reasons why she should win. (i) she's a good guy (even then i'm fairly certain she's gonna get saved by Yoruichi) (ii) she has a shite (as far as interesting battles go) yet uberhax shikai. Anybody that loses with a double touch instakill has to be retarded.

b) It would also be very safe to say Barrigan is stronger than Yoruichi, likely be ALOT. Considoring he's #2 and Yoruichi hurt her hands against Yammi's hierro (even if she did own him).

c) or we could acknowledge that she is utter fail like we all really know she is, will lose, get saved by Yoruichi and cry.

d) yeah generally a vast sweeping overstatement. I shall edit: As far as battles go... Yoruichi had one fight (and passive interaction with Byakuya) and Barrigan will have one fight, maybe two if Soifon get's saved by someone as she is likely to.

[xPyrox]

a) Hitsuguya is a prodigy/genius, they ain't referring to his sword when they say this. As for the put up her dukes and fight. There's only two reasons why she should win. (i) she's a good guy (even then i'm fairly certain she's gonna get saved by Yoruichi) (ii) she has a shite (as far as interesting battles go) yet uberhax shikai. Anybody that loses with a double touch instakill has to be retarded.

b) It would also be very safe to say Barrigan is stronger than Yoruichi, likely be ALOT. Considoring he's #2 and Yoruichi hurt her hands against Yammi's hierro (even if she did own him).

c) or we could acknowledge that she is utter fail like we all really know she is, will lose, get saved by Yoruichi and cry.

d) yeah generally a vast sweeping overstatement. I shall edit: As far as battles go... Yoruichi had one fight (and passive interaction with Byakuya) and Barrigan will have one fight, maybe two if Soifon get's saved by someone as she is likely to.

a) Totally agree. If she wins, its because she's a good guy or baragan is weak as shit.

b) I don't agree with this, yoruichi beat the living shit out of Yammy, with nothing but her bare hands and feet, no shikai, no sword, no bankai, no shunkou, nothing.
I know Baragans number 2, but with Yoruichi, I don't think we have even seen the tip of the iceberg yet for what she is capable off.

c) I agree, Yoruichi'll save her and we know it.

d) Barrigan's a bad guy.
Yoruichi's a bad guy
barrigan gets one fight, Yoruichi had one fight, it works, in a way.

[Lnrd]

First things first, her shikai is useless in this fight. Bankai Ichigo couldn't even cut through Grimmjow's Hierro. How the hell do you expect Soifon, in shikai, to have a higher attacking power than Bankai Ichigo? And, pierce the hierro of someone ranked 4 ranks above Grimmjow? It's not happening.

Unless, Bankai Soifon is at a level that surpasses Released Grimmjow and Nnoitora she isn't even going to make Barragan release.

@xPyrox- She was still no more than a mid tier captain when she left with Kiskuke. And, she said herself she hasn't even trained for 100 years.

[wedo0325]

the reason soi fon will win is because this is bleach and soi fon is a good guy, they never die.

[xPyrox]

@xPyrox- She was still no more than a mid tier captain when she left with Kiskuke. And, she said herself she hasn't even trained for 100 years.

Where does it say she was a mid tier captain?
Since most people seem to think Urahara is a high tier captain, surely for her to have been his commanding officer, that would make her high tier too..

Although, the lack of training is also a point, but I doubt she's been sitting around either since the SS arc.

[pumpkin13]

Admittedly I don't think she said her shikai had to pierce the skin of its victim in order to leave its mark, just touch... but Barrigan could have some freakout ability that's the perfect foil to her haxness (just like Matsumoto is the perfect foil to Kira).

QFT Lnrd.

Those people who think Urahara's a high tier captain are just wrong, not to mention foolish. Urahara was a captain for about 11 years maximum, and he attained his bankai through the cheats way. A scientific genius yes, but high tier captain no. Mid tier likely, cus i can't see him being a weakling, not with the way he went up against Yammi.

As for Yoruichi beating up yammi and being better with shunkou and bankai, that's irrelevent, the comparison was to her barehanded.

[Lnrd]

@pumpkin- Well each time the hornets crest appear it was because she pierced Yoru's skin. Same with Ggio's death, she pierced his lung twice. It isn't specifically said but it's sorta implied.

Where does it say she was a mid tier captain?
Since most people seem to think Urahara is a high tier captain, surely for her to have been his commanding officer, that would make her high tier too..

Although, the lack of training is also a point, but I doubt she's been sitting around either since the SS arc.

So you don't believe her own words?:faint:

And, about her being mid-tier. She wasn't a captain more than 100 years. And, she defenitely doesn't have the growth rate of Aizen.

EDIT: Shinigami have different personal limits and different growth rate. Urahara might not have hit his max rate until these las past 100 years. So her being his commanding has nothing to do with her personal limit compared to his.

[pumpkin13]

Admittedly... nobody said Aizen had a high growth rate either did they? (MAKE WAY HERE COMES PUMPKINS "AIZEN ISN'T UBER" ARGUMENTS AGAIN, no... i jest...) So that lowers the estimation some more...

And all these comparisons to Yoruichi are kinda null and void what with Yoruichi not wanting to go full out on her because she genuinely felt compassion for her. Whereas Soifon was channelling her anguish and hate into Yoruichi so likely (in the heat of the moment) DID actually want to hurt her.

[Lnrd]

@ Pumpkin- Naw I don't want to read those again. :smile:

[AizenvsUrahara]

Soi Fong was trained by Yoruichi, Commander of the Special Forces , capt of 2nd division. Killa hax shikai, fast enoguh to catch up (keep up )to the goddess of flash. Fast enough to sneak up on aizen before he escaped to HM.

i think we`r overestimating the espadas since all the Espada so far have been disappointing. They've all died like losers(9,8,7,5,6 is unknown). I think Barragan will probably win but Soifon can possibly pull off a win if Barragan gets too arrogant and cocky and underestimates Soifon like the other lower ranked espada have done in the past.

[Whyte Bler 000]

Soi Fong was trained by Yoruichi, Commander of the Special Forces , capt of 2nd division. Killa hax shikai, fast enoguh to catch up (keep up )to the goddess of flash. Fast enough to sneak up on aizen before he escaped to HM.

i think we`r overestimating the espadas since all the Espada so far have been disappointing. They've all died like losers(9,8,7,5,6 is unknown). I think Barragan will probably win but Soifon can possibly pull off a win if Barragan gets too arrogant and cocky and underestimates Soifon like the other lower ranked espada have done in the past.

Nnoitra definitely didn't die like a loser. Adjuchas are supposed to be equal to vice captains, so after becoming arrancar they could be low level captains. Nnoitra could be the strongest adjucha arrancar.

Vastos are supposed to be equal to a "average" captain, so average meaning mid-tier. Byakuya, Kenpachi. So after becoming arrancars they would be equal to a high tier captain (maybe more depending on their strength), like Shunsui, Unohana, Ukitake. Yama has got to be beyond high tier.

How Aizen is so arrogant, thinking three VL (if in fact they are) could take on the 3 best of SS (and everyone else even with their fraccion), is beyond me. He definitely has something else up his sleeve.

barragan isn't losing to soi fon, maybe yama or ukitake. but it would be good to see some captains go down before he gets taken out.

[dyne]

Well first I don't see Soi Fong losing to Barragan, and this is the reason why:

When she combines shunko with her shikai is a deadly weapon or ability that can defeat many many powerful oppoents, imagine the power of her bankai, something that we haven't seen yet, and what if her last resort or ace is mixing her bankai with shunko, its a possibility and a scary one. Is gonna be a tough battle but she will end up winning.

his fraccions almost killed her LOL

[klem14174]

you cant really count that cuz she said she wanted to see the strength of an arrancar so even so i dont believe that she will beable to beat number 2. Sure we dont know her bankai but i think its more plasable for some one else to fight him.

[xPyrox]

So you don't believe her own words?:faint:

And, about her being mid-tier. She wasn't a captain more than 100 years. And, she defenitely doesn't have the growth rate of Aizen.

EDIT: Shinigami have different personal limits and different growth rate. Urahara might not have hit his max rate until these las past 100 years. So her being his commanding has nothing to do with her personal limit compared to his.

Her own words..?
As far as I know she only said she hadn't trained between TBTP and the SS arc, after the SS arc knowing whats happening in both worlds, I expect she's been training her ass off..

And also, thats true but Aizens growth rate to me doesn't seem that great since inbetween the hundred years, he could do a chantless 70 kidou (Dankou is 70+ I think?) without incantation and in the SS arc he messed up a 90.
Its shown that he managed to make his hypnosis better in 11 years, yes.. but I mean, growth rate.. compared to Ichigo or hitsugaya, he isn't that spectacular..

Although we all have to admit he is pretty damn strong, he crushed Grimmjow with just his reiatsu, something I'm not sure if even Yama could do..

[UnadvisedGoose]

Danku is 81.

[xPyrox]

Danku is 81.

Kinda proves my point, in 100 years, aizen hasn't got any further than chantless 90..

[Lnrd]

@xPyrox- Oh okay that's what you meant. Still like in 3 months of training, do you really think she got that much more powerful than she was 3 months ago? I think not.

And Aizen's kidou skills- He did Bakudo 81 Dankuu, yet he messed up Hadou 90 Black Coffin. Yet, I'm still under the impression that Hadous are more diffucult that Bakudos. And, if I'm not mistaken level 90s hadous even have their group name for being so hard to do.

[Whyte Bler 000]

aizen said himself he had hit the walls for what a shinigami can do. that's why he was trying to bridge the gap and create a hybrid. if he was trying a 100 years ago, that would mean he hit his wall back then, or even before. so its obvious he wouldn't get any stronger since back then.

[Sensui]

@whyte bler: Or it just means he started preparing for the inevitable 100 years ago. He could have just started working towards it back than so when he did hit the wall, he would be ready to move onto the next level.

[pumpkin13]

@ Whyte: Fail. Aizen never states that he has reached his limits. If he was trying 100 years ago it only shows that he is impatient for power/ looking for an easier way of getting more powerful than being willing to put in the extended time and work hard for it.

And his shikai is effortlessly penetrated by Shinji back then, whereas it takes Unohana (an expert physician and likely second oldest captain) looking at a body for several hours to tell that something is not right, telling me he has improved his shikai in the 100 years.

you cant really count that cuz she said she wanted to see the strength of an arrancar so even so i dont believe that she will beable to beat number 2. Sure we dont know her bankai but i think its more plasable for some one else to fight him.

Lol she was talking out her ass because she underestimated her opponent and got her ass handed to her. Vega was pwning Soifon and she would have had a much harder time had it not been for her hax shikai.

Her own words..?
As far as I know she only said she hadn't trained between TBTP and the SS arc, after the SS arc knowing whats happening in both worlds, I expect she's been training her ass off..

And also, thats true but Aizens growth rate to me doesn't seem that great since inbetween the hundred years, he could do a chantless 70 kidou (Dankou is 70+ I think?) without incantation and in the SS arc he messed up a 90.
Its shown that he managed to make his hypnosis better in 11 years, yes.. but I mean, growth rate.. compared to Ichigo or hitsugaya, he isn't that spectacular..

Although we all have to admit he is pretty damn strong, he crushed Grimmjow with just his reiatsu, something I'm not sure if even Yama could do..

Yeah yeah yeah the sig and avatar give away my fanboydom but i'm quite confidant that he could.

I'm more cinvinced that Aizen is not as uber as you think, using his shikai on grimmjow, not his reiatsu.

[Wras]

you cant really count that cuz she said she wanted to see the strength of an arrancar so even so i dont believe that she will beable to beat number 2. Sure we dont know her bankai but i think its more plasable for some one else to fight him.

And then she told Omaeda not to give away her secret because she almost got her ass handed to her; the only reason she lived was because Kubo introduced something new about the shikai.


aizen said himself he had hit the walls for what a shinigami can do. that's why he was trying to bridge the gap and create a hybrid. if he was trying a 100 years ago, that would mean he hit his wall back then, or even before. so its obvious he wouldn't get any stronger since back then.

He mentioned there were walls. I don't recall him saying he hit them.

[AizenvsUrahara]

Nnoitra definitely didn't die like a loser. Adjuchas are supposed to be equal to vice captains, so after becoming arrancar they could be low level captains. Nnoitra could be the strongest adjucha arrancar.

Vastos are supposed to be equal to a "average" captain, so average meaning mid-tier. Byakuya, Kenpachi. So after becoming arrancars they would be equal to a high tier captain (maybe more depending on their strength), like Shunsui, Unohana, Ukitake. Yama has got to be beyond high tier.

How Aizen is so arrogant, thinking three VL (if in fact they are) could take on the 3 best of SS (and everyone else even with their fraccion), is beyond me. He definitely has something else up his sleeve.

barragan isn't losing to soi fon, maybe yama or ukitake. but it would be good to see some captains go down before he gets taken out.

Seriously Kendo...two hands?stupidest powerup ive ever seen how easily he defeated nnoitra was laughable, well how easily he defeated somebody who was supposed to be strong is laughable

[Kingkon]

Fail. Aizen never states that he has reached his limits. If he was trying 100 years ago it only shows that he is impatient for power/ looking for an easier way of getting more powerful than being willing to put in the extended time and work hard for it.

And his shikai is effortlessly penetrated by Shinji back then, whereas it takes Unohana (an expert physician and likely second oldest captain) looking at a body for several hours to tell that something is not right, telling me he has improved his shikai in the 100 years.

No that was not his shikai he used Aizen is not stupid enough to risk revealing his shikai's power that early on that was a kido spell the same thing Hinamori and Isane used to conceal themselves

and also with the Aizen used his shikai on Grimmjaw comment, you overestimating what his shikai can actually do it can change the appearance of something Aizen never said it can make you fall to the ground grasping for breath cause that is not an illusion!

[tRickster]

Soifon owning Barragan?? LOL thats not gonna happen, her 2 hit K.O is useless if she cant connect it in the same place twice.

[Diels-Alder]

Admittedly... nobody said Aizen had a high growth rate either did they? (MAKE WAY HERE COMES PUMPKINS "AIZEN ISN'T UBER" ARGUMENTS AGAIN, no... i jest...) So that lowers the estimation some more...

And all these comparisons to Yoruichi are kinda null and void what with Yoruichi not wanting to go full out on her because she genuinely felt compassion for her. Whereas Soifon was channelling her anguish and hate into Yoruichi so likely (in the heat of the moment) DID actually want to hurt her.

lol you're like a hero for everyone who wants to see the "good guyz" win.

[oka1992]

suifon will win because she is the good guy. Not for any other stupid reason you gave.

Yoruichi may join in to save her ass aswell

[pumpkin13]

lol you're like a hero for everyone who wants to see the "good guyz" win.

Am I? Wut? I want Soifon to lose.... how am I a hero for the people that want her to win then?

suifon will win because she is the good guy. Not for any other stupid reason you gave.

Yoruichi may join in to save her ass aswell

If Yoruichi needs to save her ass (Yoruichi interjecting being a highly likely course of action) then I would not say Soifon was winning, or indeed has won against Barrigan. If Yoruichi interjects its becuase she knows Soifon is on the losing side of the battle. So that was a rather dumb post. I notice youpretty much duplicate it with Shunsui in the other thread... trolling maybe?

[VanquishedAngel]

Am I? Wut? I want Soifon to lose.... how am I a hero for the people that want her to win then?



If Yoruichi needs to save her ass (Yoruichi interjecting being a highly likely course of action) then I would not say Soifon was winning, or indeed has won against Barrigan. If Yoruichi interjects its becuase she knows Soifon is on the losing side of the battle. So that was a rather dumb post. I notice youpretty much duplicate it with Shunsui in the other thread... trolling maybe?

come on Pumpks.. Ignore that comment.. I am still trying to figure out what he meant by that.. It's really wide open. I for one would not be neither surprised nor disappointed if Soi-fon defeated Barragan. We don't even know if that guy is VL and if he's not then so far no espada has been able to defeat a captain when push comes to shove. Besides she is a greatly under-rated character but when you look at it she's pretty scary...

[pumpkin13]

She's not scary, she's just damn irritating, I would be quite content if she died although i know thats not outright going to happen. True, if Barrigan isn't a VL then it could easily go either way.

However the last we saw of Hitsuguya it was highly implied by the shattering ice (in which Stark was reflected on one of them) that he was pretty conclusively defeated. But then a similar thing happened with that sorry excuse for an espada Luppi... if that happened to Halibel I would have to destroy something to vent my anger...

[TokyoRacer]

Quick question - Why does everyone assume Yoruichi will save Soi Fon?

Have you forgotten that right now, Yamamoto, Komamura, and Ukitake are basically sitting around doing nothing?

[GOWSRB]

True, but I'm not sure exactly how much help Koma would be against Barragan, as we have no idea how strong he really is. And then there is still the fact that someone is gonna have to save Hitsugaya, since he's pretty much done for now.

[Lnrd]

I seriously doubt that anyone except the Vaizards will show up to this current battle. Yoru is defenitely not coming imo.

[VanquishedAngel]

@ TR another interesting question? Is why do we assume that she'll need help?...

I mean right now we are basically trying to anticipate the upper reaches of two types of characters that we have only a small indication about. And for the most part we do know the limits of espada fall short of most captain level characters. Ironically the only one that we should be fairly sure is any where near a VL level should be Stark who for all we know may be able to handle 3 of them like they are VC.

[pumpkin13]

Unlikely considoring he himself said Shunsui might be more than a match for him if he started to use both his swords, and that's just unsealed. And the way Shunsui corrected his swing making it perfect and the way Stark commented on that. And shunsui's creepy evil looking face showing he was getting serious.... it all adds up to me to suggest they are likely toe to toe with each other, or at least nowhere near your possible suggestion that Stark could solo all three...

[GOWSRB]

Unlikely considoring he himself said Shunsui might be more than a match for him if he started to use both his swords, and that's just unsealed. And the way Shunsui corrected his swing making it perfect and the way Stark commented on that. And shunsui's creepy evil looking face showing he was getting serious.... it all adds up to me to suggest they are likely toe to toe with each other, or at least nowhere near your possible suggestion that Stark could solo all three...

QFT. Shunsui alone has pretty much proven that there is no way that Stark could handle all three of them by himself. Better yet, the way it's looking now, unless Stark is seriously holding, he may not win this fight even after he has released and Shunsui goes bankai. This isn't like the Ichigo/GJ fight where he's in bankai from the get go and aon level playing ground. Shunsui has yet to even use his shikai and is holding his own. This basically says that the espada can't really win this fight IMO. Provided that Shunsui does lose, Stark still has to deal with Ukitake and Yama-jii afterwards.

[Kingkon]

Ichigo is having a hard time cutting Ulq heirro who is only no. 4 Soifon will not be able to cut Barragan's Heirro which would make her shikai useless against him, and without that shikai she's useless as she got her ass handed to her by a fraccion when she didn't use it.

[pumpkin13]

QFT. Shunsui alone has pretty much proven that there is no way that Stark could handle all three of them by himself. Better yet, the way it's looking now, unless Stark is seriously holding, he may not win this fight even after he has released and Shunsui goes bankai. This isn't like the Ichigo/GJ fight where he's in bankai from the get go and aon level playing ground. Shunsui has yet to even use his shikai and is holding his own. This basically says that the espada can't really win this fight IMO. Provided that Shunsui does lose, Stark still has to deal with Ukitake and Yama-jii afterwards.

Yeaha basically, from their base starting points as they are at currently, Stark has a one step increase in power (res), whilst Shunsui has a two step increase in power (shikai, bankai). So if their equal atm, there's no reason to think that after they've both given all they've got, that Shunsui will still only be just as powerful as Stark and on an equal footing.

On that note, that's why Vaizard's are pretty hax by their very nature... their meant to be the inverse of an Arrancar? ie Hollow achieved Shinigami abilities... and Vaizard being Shinigami achieved hollow abilities... yet an arrancar as a one step power increase whilst a vaizard has a THREE step power increase (shikai, bankai, mask).

Ichigo is having a hard time cutting Ulq heirro who is only no. 4 Soifon will not be able to cut Barragan's Heirro which would make her shikai useless against him, and without that shikai she's useless as she got her ass handed to her by a fraccion when she didn't use it.

A fair point. However one must remember that whilst bankai normally increases power 5 to 10 times this is:
a) when stated referring to achieving bankai via normal methods, ie after years of hard work. So Ichigo's bankai would not likely give the normal 5 to 10 times power increase because he's used a cheating method which bypasses the long periods of effort put into it.
b) Alternatively, its not nesc. valid for Ichigo, whose bankai is not a amplifier of his power but a compressor, taking his enormous reiatsu and compressing it down into a smaller form allowing for a large speed boost. It is essentially a speed based bankai not a power based bankai*.

*This is a valid reason for those (and I have heard this talked about and argued by several very reputable members of this forum) that believe Shikai Ichigo's attack power against Zaraki was equal or even greater than Bankai Ichigo vs. Byakuya.

Another point confirming this is that when Ichigo first shows up on the bridge, Ukitake states that the reiatsu he senses (being Ichigo's) is of Captain level. And this is BEFORE he's learnt bankai. Most people (incorrectly I personally feel) state that a character is of captain level once they've learnt bankai, yet here Ichigo is at captain level before having learnt bankai.

Zaraki is a mid tier captain, and he can defeat Noitra (once using kendo pretty easily), Ichigo is struggling against one rank higher (although admittedly Ulqui might be a VL and as such their might be a huge increase in power) in only bankai form, so (disregarding the VL factor atm), Ichigo is currently at mid tier captain level.

Now I guess it all depends on whay you think Soifon is... With her shunkou which increases attack power alot, and her 5-10x bankai there's a decent argument for reasoning that her attack power after both boosts is more than that of Bankai Ichigo's (notice all this time i'm not including Vaizard mask as that gives another boost, and he hasnt used vaizard mask in his current Ulqui battle yet).

[Dax01]

Hell no, Soi Fong bankai is attack useless of course. Her bankai cannot be a weapon of any kind, its gonna be something like wings or a shield, but it wont be a weapon. She almost said it herself when she told the fat guy to shut up cause her shikai was her best like ace.

[Keiretsu]

Anyone else notice how erratic the releases for the espada are though? I don't think Stark is going to win, but his release would definitely be something completely different and far more dangerous than anything we've seen.

Then again, in the event that Shunsui loses (which is doubtful) Stark would have to go up against a pissed off Ukitake, I don't envy that opponent. (Or maybe even worse, a pissed off Yama)

[Guts]

Don't forget that Barragan is the second espada. He is less powerful than Stark, who will probably lose a close fight to Shunsui. However, Shunsui and stark on an entirely different level than any other normal captain, so Barragan is almost at that level. Soi Fon is tough and true we haven't seen her bankai, but my point is that we shlouldn't underestimate Barragan because I'm sure he has a few tricks up his sleeve. It will be a very close fight, but Soi Fon will probably win because of plotkai (unless her losing is an opening for the vaizards to intervene in the battle, which would be great).

[Sessou]

I'm sorry, but I don't see in any way that Soi Fon or Hitsugaya will survive their fights. I'd even bet that Halibel takes pity on Hitsugaya and leaves him in his own blood to suffer. He should be so lucky to get away from her at all. And put this into perspective, Toshiro has already released against her. It didn't even faze her that he did. Don't care what you say, that's not a good sign for him surviving. It might be the first time I'd believe in "plotkai" if he does. Especially if nobody intervenes in time to save him. And you can hold me to that, I promise.

As for Soi Fon, no way she wins that match. He's out of her league as it is. I was once told about "Old age and treachery beating out youth and exuberance" more times than not. Barragan, more than likely, has plenty of experience, he's likely seen her kind before. I wouldn't be surprised to see Omaeda die here as well. The only situation that's not likely to happen this way is with Ukitake. In his condition, he won't be able to overstrain himself with such a hyperactive character in Lilinette. She might just kill him off by making him choke on his own blood due to too much excitement.

Starks and Shunsui should be a great match up. A-likes, indeed. Can't wait to see that one.

My guess is that before all is said and done, Yama-ji may end up fighting most of the fights on his own before good help arrives. Above all else, Aizen isn't confident for no reason at all. He knows something and he's certainly not going to share with the captains.

[Matt]

I'm sorry, but I don't see in any way that Soi Fon or Hitsugaya will survive their fights. I'd even bet that Halibel takes pity on Hitsugaya and leaves him in his own blood to suffer. He should be so lucky to get away from her at all. And put this into perspective, Toshiro has already released against her. It didn't even faze her that he did. Don't care what you say, that's not a good sign for him surviving. It might be the first time I'd believe in "plotkai" if he does. Especially if nobody intervenes in time to save him. And you can hold me to that, I promise.

As for Soi Fon, no way she wins that match. He's out of her league as it is. I was once told about "Old age and treachery beating out youth and exuberance" more times than not. Barragan, more than likely, has plenty of experience, he's likely seen her kind before. I wouldn't be surprised to see Omaeda die here as well. The only situation that's not likely to happen this way is with Ukitake. In his condition, he won't be able to overstrain himself with such a hyperactive character in Lilinette. She might just kill him off by making him choke on his own blood due to too much excitement.

Starks and Shunsui should be a great match up. A-likes, indeed. Can't wait to see that one.

My guess is that before all is said and done, Yama-ji may end up fighting most of the fights on his own before good help arrives. Above all else, Aizen isn't confident for no reason at all. He knows something and he's certainly not going to share with the captains.

1st Paragraph
- Hitsugaya vs Halibel...lollll, watch Hitsugaya win, just like you said, I'd believe in plotkai if that happens, unless they give a reason, he is some sort of prodigy or w/e. But yeah... i'd lol if he wins

2nd
- Soi-Fon is over a hundred years old, she's old man lol. Looks can always be deceiving, we really dont know how old barragan is (he is older most likely), you just have to be careful, looks have nothing to do with age. Soi Fon has a real good chance of winning, and the reason is cause we dont know what her bankai is. Its going to be something that helps her win, I'm like 99.99% sure of that.

3rd
- Aizen isn't confident? what? He sure looks confident to me lol. He has something up his sleeve, deffinitely, cause out of all this, we're all basically saying Shunsui is going to win, it might be very very close, but most likely he will win. Then after he wins, barragan and halibel are dead, cause even if shunsui is to hurt to fight anymore, there's ukitake, yama, and Komamura, who does Aizen have other then himself, tousen, and Ichimaru? I guess he's planning that the Vizards will interfere and fight for him or the espada arent even VL's, and he has a few under his command...

I STILL don't see Aizen succeeding, I'm so confused.

Even if he wins, he still has to get through urahara, yourichi, tessai, isshin, and Ishida's Dad (forgot his name), which is another 4 ex-captains and 1 damn powerful quincy and if the vizards don't join him, he has to go through them too.

then the Royal Guard Members

Aizen is confusing, he's probably going to do some major hax, (Like yea Bankai, it kills everyone in a mile radius, except me, muahaha, GG!!)

But on to Soi-Fon

I think she is deff at a high ranking captain, maybe low-tier high level captain as mentioned. She should defeat barragan.

[Lnrd]

^@yourl ast sentence- She wasn't even a VC 100 years ago. Are you suggesting her growth rate that great? Did you not just see her ass getting kicked by a fraccion for majority of the fight?

[|-TheExile-|]

Keep in mind that Stark and Shunsui were just both messing around prior to Stark saying he was the number 1 Espada.

Also, I don't really understand why shinkai and even bankai are taken as strict power increases, becuase they really don't work that way. Did Byakuya, for example, increase his reiatsu by using shinkai or bankai? These are more techniques than anything - obviously they make you far more dangerous than with just a sword, but it takes a very rare zanpaktou to actually increase your battle ability in and of itself.

Ichigo boosts his speed with his Bankai, sure and Yama can just incinerate you by standing next to you, but these are IMO special cases.

We've seen Shunsui's shinkai and it looks to be similar to Urahara's in that it changes the appearance of his zanpaktou and probably gives him many nifty abilities. Obviously we don't know what his Bankai does, but this is more likely the case that he has at most 1 power-up saved up versus Stark who we know can up his reiatsu by a lot if he releases.

[Stri]

Also, I don't really understand why shinkai and even bankai are taken as strict power increases, becuase they really don't work that way. Did Byakuya, for example, increase his reiatsu by using shinkai or bankai?

You have to consider that a single person's shikai doesn't necessarily speak for everyone elses.



Ichigo boosts his speed with his Bankai, sure and Yama can just incinerate you by standing next to you, but these are IMO special cases.

The probability of his shikai being one of those "special cases" is something we don't know. Considering we don't know exactly what it can do, at all.

We've seen Shunsui's shinkai and it looks to be similar to Urahara's in that it changes the appearance of his zanpaktou and probably gives him many nifty abilities.

We've seen his shikai appearance not necessarily what it does. "Every" other zanpaktou changes its appearance when being released into shikai as well.

Obviously we don't know what his Bankai does, but this is more likely the case that he has at most 1 power-up saved up versus Stark who we know can up his reiatsu by a lot if he releases.

We have no indication of what his bankai "or" his shikai does. As far as this match-up, goes. I'll reserve judgment.

[Sessou]

1st Paragraph
- Hitsugaya vs Halibel...lollll, watch Hitsugaya win, just like you said, I'd believe in plotkai if that happens, unless they give a reason, he is some sort of prodigy or w/e. But yeah... i'd lol if he wins

2nd
- Soi-Fon is over a hundred years old, she's old man lol. Looks can always be deceiving, we really dont know how old barragan is (he is older most likely), you just have to be careful, looks have nothing to do with age. Soi Fon has a real good chance of winning, and the reason is cause we dont know what her bankai is. Its going to be something that helps her win, I'm like 99.99% sure of that.

3rd
- Aizen isn't confident? what? He sure looks confident to me lol. He has something up his sleeve, deffinitely, cause out of all this, we're all basically saying Shunsui is going to win, it might be very very close, but most likely he will win. Then after he wins, barragan and halibel are dead, cause even if shunsui is to hurt to fight anymore, there's ukitake, yama, and Komamura, who does Aizen have other then himself, tousen, and Ichimaru? I guess he's planning that the Vizards will interfere and fight for him or the espada arent even VL's, and he has a few under his command...

I STILL don't see Aizen succeeding, I'm so confused.

Even if he wins, he still has to get through urahara, yourichi, tessai, isshin, and Ishida's Dad (forgot his name), which is another 4 ex-captains and 1 damn powerful quincy and if the vizards don't join him, he has to go through them too.

then the Royal Guard Members

Aizen is confusing, he's probably going to do some major hax, (Like yea Bankai, it kills everyone in a mile radius, except me, muahaha, GG!!)

But on to Soi-Fon

I think she is deff at a high ranking captain, maybe low-tier high level captain as mentioned. She should defeat barragan.

I didn't say Aizen isn't confident at all, I meant he's not confident for no reason at all. There's good reason for him to be confident, but only he seems to know why. And you'll be fooling yourself if you think he didn't figure that the Vizards wouldn't come to intervene. In fact, I bet he's counting on it. Soi Fon is still relatively young compared to the others. And, she's not exactly experienced in all her skills yet. Sure, she might have Bankai, and she may have other special abilities as well. And while looks have nothing to do with it, Barragan is #2 among the Espada. No way can she hope to match up with one of the strongest of the strong here. So unless she has something we didn't expect available to her to defeat Barragan, she's about as good as dead.

[Zero-sama]

No way can she hope to match up with one of the strongest of the strong here. So unless she has something we didn't expect available to her to defeat Barragan, she's about as good as dead.


That's why the thing that she has that we don't expect is the combination of her Shunko and Bankai. The last resort to defeat Barragan, well that's the reason why Barragan will loose.

[Matt]

^@yourl ast sentence- She wasn't even a VC 100 years ago. Are you suggesting her growth rate that great? Did you not just see her ass getting kicked by a fraccion for majority of the fight?

She also said she was fooling around, she wanted to see a arrancar's ressurection.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/332/19/

Then in the next chapter, she killed the arrancar with ease.

Every shinigami can have an exceptional growth rate, Ishida & Chad had significant growth rates, why cant she? This is why bleach is great, everybody has a chance to be the strongest. If Ishida and Chad can have exceptional growth rates, why cant she in 100 years?

I won't mention Ichigo's growth rate, but yeah.

Don't underestimate her. Kubo has something in store for us when she starts to fight.

[Lnrd]

She also said she was fooling around, she wanted to see a arrancar's ressurection.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/332/19/

Then in the next chapter, she killed the arrancar with ease.

Every shinigami can have an exceptional growth rate, Ishida & Chad had significant growth rates, why cant she? This is why bleach is great, everybody has a chance to be the strongest. If Ishida and Chad can have exceptional growth rates, why cant she in 100 years?

I won't mention Ichigo's growth rate, but yeah.

Don't underestimate her. Kubo has something in store for us when she starts to fight.

Yeah she kills him right when Ggio sacrifices speed for power, or did you miss that. She was defenitely losing that fight, besides if she really was trying to gauge Ggio power you wouldn't need to get your ass kicked. Take Halibel for example, she was gauging Toshiro's power but still recieved no injuries while holding back tremendously, that's how you gauge power.

Uryu and Sado are main characters so that's null and void. Of course they are going to have great growth rates. And, if I'm not mistaken it was said that being around Ichigo's immense spiritual power increased the power of ichigo's friends.

[pumpkin13]

She also said she was fooling around, she wanted to see a arrancar's ressurection.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/332/19/

Then in the next chapter, she killed the arrancar with ease.

Every shinigami can have an exceptional growth rate, Ishida & Chad had significant growth rates, why cant she? This is why bleach is great, everybody has a chance to be the strongest. If Ishida and Chad can have exceptional growth rates, why cant she in 100 years?

I won't mention Ichigo's growth rate, but yeah.

Don't underestimate her. Kubo has something in store for us when she starts to fight.

er... because Chad and Ishida aren't Shinigami? on top of the main character point and being around CIhigo for prolonged periods of time...

[Paragon]

Yeah she kills him right when Ggio sacrifices speed for power, or did you miss that. She was defenitely losing that fight, besides if she really was trying to gauge Ggio power you wouldn't need to get your ass kicked. Take Halibel for example, she was gauging Toshiro's power but still recieved no injuries while holding back tremendously, that's how you gauge power.

Uryu and Sado are main characters so that's null and void. Of course they are going to have great growth rates. And, if I'm not mistaken it was said that being around Ichigo's immense spiritual power increased the power of ichigo's friends.

Lnrd, i thought similar before, but if you take a closer look Soi Fong really was just analysing the arrancar's powers and of course how arrancars work in general. If she really wanted to, she could have owned the arrancar long before it even had the opportunity to release.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/330/18/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/331/05/

If she really wanted to kill the arrancar quickly she'd have used Shunpo while the arrancar was immobile and would have killed Ggio.

But then of course this is the reason why she never did that...

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/332/19/

[Oh1222]

And I doubt an arrancar (like Ggio) becomes slower after releasing.

[pumpkin13]

The reason why she didn't shunpo in was because she was arrogant, overconfidant and underestimated the resourcefulness of her opponent. The "i just wanted to see an arrancars release" line was her covering her ass to make herself look good. and only Omaeda is foolish enough to buy that line.

[Oh_Word_Ichigo]

That's obviously YOUR assessment as well as others who have stated that and not fact. If she really was losing and trying to "save face" then why was it so simple for her to dispose of Vega panels from stating that line?

That's like in a boxing match, a bruised, bloody, but victorious De La Hoya says "oh well in the first couple rounds i was only trying to get an assesment of his movements and see what he's really all about, once i figured that out that's when i brought the left hook into play and KO'd him in the 6th round".

Same thing, so what's the problem here? Would you still think De La Hoya was really getting his ass kicked and said that to save face, or to really reveal his plan and intentions?

[pumpkin13]

No that was not his shikai he used Aizen is not stupid enough to risk revealing his shikai's power that early on that was a kido spell the same thing Hinamori and Isane used to conceal themselves

and also with the Aizen used his shikai on Grimmjaw comment, you overestimating what his shikai can actually do it can change the appearance of something Aizen never said it can make you fall to the ground grasping for breath cause that is not an illusion!

Actually we currently have TWO different statements as to what Kyouka Suigetsou does. BOTH from Aizen himself.

http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107372/12.jpg

and

http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000050241/007.jpg

Seeing as shinigami develop and perfect their shikai (and bankai) over time, we'll go with the first one as its the later one.

So it affects the five senses...
- Aizen affects Grimmjows tactile sense, making his skin feel as if it is extremely heavy, bringing him to his knees.
- Aizen affects his visual sense, making everything seem blurry as it does when under the effects of intense spiritual pressure.
(optional for anime) - Aizen affects his audio sense, making him hear that low frequency white noise sound that happens during high spiritual pressure.

And there you go, by affecting three of his senses, Aizen can make Grimmjow think he's under the affects of intense spiritual pressure. (Smach has some decent arguments against this but...)
And so far I've heard NOT ONE decent arguement as to why NO ONE ELSE in the vicinity of the table is affected by the assumedly vast amounts of reiatsu Aizen is belting out in order to bring GJ to his knees, Szayal and Zommari are closer to Aizen than GJ is (and they're weaker Espada) yet they sit their perfectly unaffected.

So no, i'm not overestimating what his shikai can actually do.

Addition:
@Oh Word: I dunno much about boxing, has Le Hoya's personality in the past been shown to be arrogant, stuck up and stubborn? If so then yeah I'd probably say he's covering his ass.

And why was it so simple for her? Because he got rid of his speed and reaction time sacrificing it for power, giving her a speedblitzable advantage and she has a hax shikai.

[|-TheExile-|]

Stri,

You have to consider that a single person's shikai doesn't necessarily speak for everyone elses.

Byakuya was my example, but my claim wasn't based on Byakuya's shinkai. Take your pick of all of the shinkais we've seen - which one has caused a direct increase in any of the basic battle abilities? Which shinkai made a character physically faster, or physically stronger, or improved the strength of their kidou?

The closest we've seen to any zan-based physical power-up is Ichigo's bankai and that's isolated to his speed alone.

So while this is obviously a case of inference to the best explanation, to me it looks like the preponderance of evidence suggests that a shinkai does nothing more than transform the physical state of the sword and add an ability or two.

The probability of his shikai being one of those "special cases" is something we don't know. Considering we don't know exactly what it can do, at all.

We've seen what it is, however. It's justifiably not an element based zan so it can't be like Yamma's, where it affects the physical enviroment.

Ichigo's bankai raises Ichigo's battle potential because his zan covers his whole body. You can see that clearly in his fight with Grimmjow, or really any time he uses his bankai and is first covered in that black screen, emerging in that dress similar to the physical manifestation of Zangetsu. That's Ichigo's trick, really.

Anyway, in hindsight mentioning Yamma's shinkai on my part is just pointless, because it doesn't actually increase his battle ability. Really, outside of Ichigo, no one has yet to raise their physica ability with their zan.

We've seen his shikai appearance not necessarily what it does. "Every" other zanpaktou changes its appearance when being released into shikai as well.


Well, obviously. But there are differences. Yumicha's zan's true form isn't really a sword at all - it's an energy sucking beast. But every other shinkai we've seen is just a fancy weapon with an ability. Urahara was just an example of the top of my head, but again, my bad, because it amounts to a red herring.

The general case is pretty obvious - there's been no shinkai that increases battle ability. For Shunsui to do it would go against the established trend. It's not that he can't do it, by any means, or that we can rule it out, but it would be going against everything that's been established as to what a zan can do.

So there are no grounds to claim that Shunsui has a shinkai power-up saved against Stark, who can release to increase his physical abilities, since that isn't what any Shinigami does. His bankai hasn't been shown at all so obviously there are no inferences to be made, and there's been no established trend with bankai's, but the shinkai pretty much follows the same rules for everyone.

ETA:

My point isn't that I can even come close to predict what will happen in the fight between these two. We haven't seen enough of either to know. What I do disagree with, though, is the idea that there's any reason to claim that Shunsui has two power-ups (shinkai & bankai) to Stark's one (ressurecion). If Shunsui's abilities follow the general path we've seen with a shinigami, like Byakuya, Konumura, Hitsugaya or Tousen, then neither his bankai nor his shinkai will increase his base abilities, though obviously they will up his killing potential by a lot.

That's why, to the poster who said that Vaizard are hax because they have 3 power-ups, I disagree. The only thing that actually raises their reiatsu is calling their mask and becoming that hollow hybrid, just like the only thing that raises the reiatsu of the Arrancar is the ressurecion.

[tRickster]

Barragan wont be the one that will lose. Soifon is shit, I dont think she has a bankai, her 2 hit K.O seems to be the best she can do. If it doesnt connect at the same place twice its useless.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/333/13/

[Stri]

Barragan wont be the one that will lose. Soifon is shit, I dont think she has a bankai, her 2 hit K.O seems to be the best she can do. If it doesnt connect at the same place twice its useless.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/333/13/

Zaraki was stated as the only captain to have that position without bankai.

[tRickster]

Soifon stated herself that it was her best move. Either she has no bankai, or her bankai is amazingly weak and it would be embarrassing to rip it out.

[smacharia8]

Actually we currently have TWO different statements as to what Kyouka Suigetsou does. BOTH from Aizen himself.

http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107372/12.jpg

and

http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000050241/007.jpg

Seeing as shinigami develop and perfect their shikai (and bankai) over time, we'll go with the first one as its the later one.

So it affects the five senses...
- Aizen affects Grimmjows tactile sense, making his skin feel as if it is extremely heavy, bringing him to his knees.
- Aizen affects his visual sense, making everything seem blurry as it does when under the effects of intense spiritual pressure.
(optional for anime) - Aizen affects his audio sense, making him hear that low frequency white noise sound that happens during high spiritual pressure.

And there you go, by affecting three of his senses, Aizen can make Grimmjow think he's under the affects of intense spiritual pressure. (Smach has some decent arguments against this but...)
And so far I've heard NOT ONE decent arguement as to why NO ONE ELSE in the vicinity of the table is affected by the assumedly vast amounts of reiatsu Aizen is belting out in order to bring GJ to his knees, Szayal and Zommari are closer to Aizen than GJ is (and they're weaker Espada) yet they sit their perfectly unaffected.

So no, i'm not overestimating what his shikai can actually do.Maybe you should start a poll about the effects reiatsu has on people, comparing your theory to the author's. :p

First off you can't make skin feel heavy as it only retains the sense of touch; heaviness is guaged physically by your muscles. Secondly the characters feel/get incapacitated when exposed to reiatsu that's notably superior to their own; the lines are there for emphasis to the readers as in the case of rapid movements.


@tRickster: When did Soifon make that statement?

[pumpkin13]

Maybe Smach ^_^, you and I have already gone over it a coupla times and i've come to terms with that we're just going to disagree, although I do somewhat agree with msucles and internal senses judging skin weight, but tactile sense would be able to judge pressure being pressed against your body from all angles.

What say you on the "covering her ass" issue? Do you think she truly was testing the arrancar to see his res or covering her ass with a lame excuse (as I believe she was).

[smacharia8]

Maybe Smach ^_^, you and I have already gone over it a coupla times and i've come to terms with that we're just going to disagree, although I do somewhat agree with msucles and internal senses judging skin weight, but tactile sense would be able to judge pressure being pressed against your body from all angles.

What say you on the "covering her ass" issue? Do you think she truly was testing the arrancar to see his res or covering her ass with a lame excuse (as I believe she was).It's happened to Ichigo (vs Doldoni and Ikkaku) and Byakuya (vs Ichigo) as well. Anyways I only replied because I saw the Grimmjow issue come up again; dunno exactly what was being discussed prior.

Also pressure against your body from all angles won't make you feel heavy, but it'll certainly make it harder to move and even breathe since it's pushing inwards on every part of you, a sensation which is impacted throughout your entire body, not your skin alone.

[pumpkin13]

The prior issue was that some believe Soifon really had no trouble against Vega and that she was messing around so she could see what an Arrancar's res looked like.

My argument is that she was getting her ass handed to her and was covering with a lame ass sorry excuse because she underestimated her opponent and she's arrogant and stubborn, so she's trying to save face.

[smacharia8]

Well IMO you could say both are correct. She wanted to see Vega's release because she thought it wouldn't be nothing serious, and therefore underestimated him in that aspect. But she did come back and own him, so I believe she wouldn't have had much trouble with him if she fought him seriously to begin with.


@tRickster: Now I know what you're referring to. Personally I believe Soifon bankai, but I guess it's possible that she only has shikai, since she also talks about perfecting her shikai during Yoruichi's 100yr absence.

[Levy]

@tRickster: Now I know what you're referring to. Personally I believe Soifon bankai, but I guess it's possible that she only has shikai, since she also talks about perfecting her shikai during Yoruichi's 100yr absence.

I don't think Kubo is gonna bring us a 2nd captain without a bankai as it would ruin Kenpachi's character imo and it was directly stated (don't remember by whom) that he was the only one ever (or was it in this bunch of captains?) to achieve the rank of captain without bankai.

[shinji]

Kenpachi was stated to be the only captain without bankai.

And i beleive there is a possibility of her winning we know that She can keep up with a serious youruichi (while byakuya got speed blitzed in a game of tag even with her at a disadvantage) so that with bankai could take him down.

And we have only seen the full extent of her shikai know ages from when she showed it she is more dangerous than she lets on.

[Boss]

If you ask me Soi Fon has a completely insane ability. Two hits done? If that's all she has to do I don't see how she could ever lose, lest the interference of plotkai. It would be interesting if Barragan actually survived her shikai ability and then owned the hell out of her.

[klem14174]

I think that Soi Fong's Bankai is probably similer to that of Tosiro. It is probably incomplete, I say that because he did say she only perfected her Shikai so that means she would have a bankai but its not perfected. Maybe when she said that was her best move it was because she isnt confedent in her Bankai because she hasnt had to use it there for its not perfected.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

I think that Soi Fong's Bankai is probably similer to that of Tosiro. It is probably incomplete, I say that because he did say she only perfected her Shikai so that means she would have a bankai but its not perfected. Maybe when she said that was her best move it was because she isnt confedent in her Bankai because she hasnt had to use it there for its not perfected.

I agree with you in part. I do recall Soi Fon mentioning that it has only been in more recent times that she has been able to make the butterfly marks stay on her opponent without fading away. This would suggest her bankai is incomplete, but at the same time, according to Byakuya it takes 10 years of training in order to control bankai completely, and I think it's safe to assume she's had her bankai for at least that long if Youruichi left SS 100 years ago and she took over captaincy shortly afterwards.

[Lnrd]

I agree with you in part. I do recall Soi Fon mentioning that it has only been in more recent times that she has been able to make the butterfly marks stay on her opponent without fading away. This would suggest her bankai is incomplete, but at the same time, according to Byakuya it takes 10 years of training in order to control bankai completely, and I think it's safe to assume she's had her bankai for at least that long if Youruichi left SS 100 years ago and she took over captaincy shortly afterwards.

Did she take over captaincy shorty afterwards? I think not.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

Did she take over captaincy shorty afterwards? I think not.

Well the point I was trying to make is that I highly doubt she has been captain for less than 10 years.

[Yayap]

I was struggling to remember Soifon saying anything remotely like her shikai is her best move, so I reread the Ggio Vega chapters, and it appears to be a mistake in the original Sleepyfans scan. Only they had that line in it. Ju-Ni & Maximum7 (both far better quality than SF, which rush the chapter out) say something else (which makes far more sense, imo).

M7 says "It's time for the Boss,/ so don't say anything that might give us away."
Ju-Ni say "He (Barragan) is the show stopper/ Don't spew out words that reveal our secrets."

Sleepyfans version (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-346-page-13.html)
Max7 version of same page (http://www.toshokan.bleach7.com/bleach/333/14)

Soifon was saying that Barragan is the Boss/highlight/show-stopper, she was not saying her shikai was her best move.

[pumpkin13]

Kenpachi was stated to be the only captain without bankai.

And i beleive there is a possibility of her winning we know that She can keep up with a serious youruichi (while byakuya got speed blitzed in a game of tag even with her at a disadvantage) so that with bankai could take him down.

And we have only seen the full extent of her shikai know ages from when she showed it she is more dangerous than she lets on.

I personally don't think Yoruichi was serious against Soifon at all. She was holding back on the shunkou punches (if she wasn't she would have flat out punched Soifon in the face when she held back from that) and she genuinely didn't want to hurt Soifon. Whereas Soifon is channeling her hate and anger at Yoruichi into her fight so she's going pretty near all out against her.

We also know she is stuck up, arrogant and has a tendency to underestimate the opponent, I can see her taunting Barrigan with "old man" and so on and so forth, then he speed blitzes her.

I see it this way:
Ichigo's bankai i believe is faster than Soifon, and Ulquiorra is currently pwning Ichigo speedwise only at xx% of his full capacity, and Barrigan is two ranks higher than Ulquiorra, so I would assume Barrigan has a higher potential for speed and power than Ulquiorra. Already through this reasoning Ulquiorra is faster the Soifon, then the rank increase on top of that, I personally don't think Soifon is going to be able to land a hit of Barrigan with her hax double touch.

[UnadvisedGoose]

^I agree with you for the most part, excluding the fact that Ichigo is faster than Soifon. I definitely think she is faster than him, but I do think that Barragan is just too much for her.

[smacharia8]

With shunko Yoruichi was definitely holding back, by a big margin. I just hope you're not implying she was also holding back (a lot) before.

[klem14174]

^I agree with you for the most part, excluding the fact that Ichigo is faster than Soifon. I definitely think she is faster than him, but I do think that Barragan is just too much for her.

Really, you really think that Bankai Ichigo is slower then little Soifon? Your an idiot, lol no offence. Soifon, Yoruichi and Byakuya are all slower then Bankai Ichigo by a wide margin. Being able to fallow him and move the same speed are two completly different things. Byakuya even said that his Bankai alowed him to move serveral times faster then what shinpo alowes for.

[smacharia8]

Ichigo's bankai improves his reflexes whereas Soifon and Yoruichi innately have fast reflexes. Byakuya's outclassed by all three.

[UnadvisedGoose]

Really, you really think that Bankai Ichigo is slower then little Soifon? Your an idiot, lol no offence. Soifon, Yoruichi and Byakuya are all slower then Bankai Ichigo by a wide margin. Being able to fallow him and move the same speed are two completly different things. Byakuya even said that his Bankai alowed him to move serveral times faster then what shinpo alowes for.

Excuse me? Hmm. Well I guess we'll see then, won't we?

I just find it funny that Zommari seemed every bit as fast as GJ. And Byakuya kept up with Zommari, while GJ was at least keeping up with Ichigo's "godly" speed. And Yoruichi and Soifon are definitely faster than Byakuya. . . Oh well. Just my opinion I guess.

[SBowman]

Really, you really think that Bankai Ichigo is slower then little Soifon? Your an idiot, lol no offence. Soifon, Yoruichi and Byakuya are all slower then Bankai Ichigo by a wide margin. Being able to fallow him and move the same speed are two completly different things. Byakuya even said that his Bankai alowed him to move serveral times faster then what shinpo alowes for.

Although I'll attribute Ichigo's lack of speed against Byakuya's 'senkei' due to his inexperience in fighting in Bankai (as stated by his hollow), there's nothing to suggest that Soifon is slower than Bankai Ichigo. I understand that the increase of speed is one of his bankai's most important and most defining aspect, though the increase of this speed does not mean that it's a greater increase than Soifon's base speed.

[Paragon]

Excuse me? Hmm. Well I guess we'll see then, won't we?

I just find it funny that Zommari seemed every bit as fast as GJ. And Byakuya kept up with Zommari, while GJ was at least keeping up with Ichigo's "godly" speed. And Yoruichi and Soifon are definitely faster than Byakuya. . . Oh well. Just my opinion I guess.

Zommari was no where near as fast as Grimmjow whether he was released or unreleased. He possessed the fastest Sonido, but sometimes being good with Sonido/Shunpo doesn't always measures one's speed. Bankai Ichigo in terms of speed is above Byakuya, but Byakuya may be able to travel a further distance in one single step in Shunpo than Ichigo for example, that primarily comes down to experience, Yama being a clear example of that.

Base Grimmjow is capable of keeping up with Ichigo thus Grimmjow is faster than Byakuya, therefore faster than Zommari. This reminds me of when Nnoitra claimed to be the strongest amongst all Espada, when he only possessed the hardest Hierro and not the strongest attack.

[pumpkin13]

Smach can you help me out, have you got any definite sources to state that Yoruichi was DEFINITELY going all out when it came to the shunpo and not holding back with Soifon, i'm open to persuasion but atm, i'm thinking Soifon was going all out whilst Yoruichi was holding back even before the shunkou.

[smacharia8]

No, I just find it hard to believe she'd intentionally take damage, especially when she's supposed to be above Soifon's league. It's not really shunpo but movement speed by her own admission. In fact, that's probably where their specialty lies, seeing that we already have Shunsui being praised for longest step (or whatever Yama was talking about).

If anything I'd say it's due to inactivity that Soifon was fairing better pre-shunko.

[Paragon]

Some people are saying Yoruichi held back and its true that when Yoruichi went Shunko she held back from then on, but then one has to ask themselves as to whether or not Soi Fong was fighting at 100% and the answer is no. Its clear that Soi Fong was in an emotional state after seeing the person she had admired and practically worshipped after over 100 years or so and this clearly effected her game, most evidently at the closes stages of the fight.

Any emotionally intact Captain from the moment Yoruichi went Shunko and the tide was seriously against them would have went Bankai, however instead Soi Fong simply broke down and cried. Had she gone Bankai, a Zanpaktou-less Yoruichi would have most likely lost, no matter what Soi Fong's Bankai may have been.

[smacharia8]

I disagree because of the sheer power that was displayed when Yoruich was seriously trying to hold back. To me shunko Yoruichi is alongside Zaraki on the list of people that can take a bankai oponent without using their zanpakuto.

[Oh_Word_Ichigo]

Addition:
@Oh Word: I dunno much about boxing, has Le Hoya's personality in the past been shown to be arrogant, stuck up and stubborn? If so then yeah I'd probably say he's covering his ass.

And why was it so simple for her? Because he got rid of his speed and reaction time sacrificing it for power, giving her a speedblitzable advantage and she has a hax shikai.

Oh my bad lol, but honestly yes De La Hoya actually has been pegged as "stuck up". And i don't recall Vega's release hindering his speed and reaction time being stated. Are you saying this because he grew larger? If so, then I can at least understand why you would at least think that. But all in all, Soi Fong could have dealt the killing blow to Vega at anytime during that fight. She is an assassin, a trained killer. It isn't too hard to believe that she really was assessing the situation and the powers of an Arrancar before taking on an Espada. It just makes more sense than to state "she's saving her ass from embarrassment." Especially at how quickly the match ended and she turned to face Barragan.

To each their own though, like stated I can see where you're drawing your assumptions from.

[Paragon]

I disagree because of the sheer power that was displayed when Yoruich was seriously trying to hold back. To me shunko Yoruichi is alongside Zaraki on the list of people that can take a bankai oponent without using their zanpakuto.

Zaraki can take on a Bankai opponent without the use of a Zanpaktou?

I think were forgetting that Soi Fong can also perform Shunko. Sure it was premature, but something is better than nothing and that along with her Bankai would take Yoruichi out. But the main point i wanted to get across is that Soi Fong was also not fighting at 100%.

[pumpkin13]

Zommari was no where near as fast as Grimmjow whether he was released or unreleased. He possessed the fastest Sonido, but sometimes being good with Sonido/Shunpo doesn't always measures one's speed. Bankai Ichigo in terms of speed is above Byakuya, but Byakuya may be able to travel a further distance in one single step in Shunpo than Ichigo for example, that primarily comes down to experience, Yama being a clear example of that.

Base Grimmjow is capable of keeping up with Ichigo thus Grimmjow is faster than Byakuya, therefore faster than Zommari. This reminds me of when Nnoitra claimed to be the strongest amongst all Espada, when he only possessed the hardest Hierro and not the strongest attack.

Yes admittedly never trust the person who tells you about themselves, especially as the majority of the arrancar have been seen to be arrogant and underestimated their opponents, it's the typical "unreliable narrator" scenario.

However I genuinely think his sonido was the fastest. By adding in another step or two he can create the appearence of a clone. I highly disagree that its simply an afterimage technique. He genuinely is moving fast enough in a circular motion between four given positions that make it seem as if their are four sustained images of himself there.

As for Byakuya being faster than Ichigo... well... he didn't use Moulting Cicada against him so we'll never truly know.

I know Smach personally believes Cicada to be some kind of decoy/after image ability and not a speed based move... if that is the case, then it does not prove that Byakuya is faster than Zommari, which breaks down the whole chain of Grimmjow=Bankai Ichigo>Byakuya>Zommari.

[smacharia8]

Zaraki can take on a Bankai opponent without the use of a Zanpaktou?

I think were forgetting that Soi Fong can also perform Shunko. Sure it was premature, but something is better than nothing and that along with her Bankai would take Yoruichi out. But the main point i wanted to get across is that Soi Fong was also not fighting at 100%.Zanpakuto meaning shikai/bankai assistance. Also Soifon shunko <<< Yoruichi's shunko (we saw that with our own eyes) and I doubt her bankai will have much more to offer.

@pumpkin: Cicada is a speed based technique, not a show of superior speed. Could care less about Zomari because his l33tness was canceled out by a technique Byakuya learned after Aizen went to HM. And yes, cicada can be considered a decoy/after image ability which is obtained via using the technique. I may've referred to it as such in reference to Zomari's "ability" but I don't recall saying it's not a speed based technique. Also Zomari may indeed have the fastest sonido, and Byakuya may be able to travel farther than Ichigo with one step, but that doesn't make them faster. Reflexes play a bigger role.

[Mikeno]

Some people are saying Yoruichi held back and its true that when Yoruichi went Shunko she held back from then on, but then one has to ask themselves as to whether or not Soi Fong was fighting at 100% and the answer is no. Its clear that Soi Fong was in an emotional state after seeing the person she had admired and practically worshipped after over 100 years or so and this clearly effected her game, most evidently at the closes stages of the fight.

Any emotionally intact Captain from the moment Yoruichi went Shunko and the tide was seriously against them would have went Bankai, however instead Soi Fong simply broke down and cried. Had she gone Bankai, a Zanpaktou-less Yoruichi would have most likely lost, no matter what Soi Fong's Bankai may have been.

I myself think that Soi Fon seeing Yorucihi sharpened her resolve in trying to defeat Yorucihi not emotionaly incapacitated her from going all out.. not until Yoruichi put on display her vastly superior shunko that she stated herself that wasnt near completion.. that point alone is when Soi Fon went "o woe is me" and mentally shut it down..

[Intense]

Could care less about Zomari because his l33tness was canceled out by a technique Byakuya learned after Aizen went to HM.

Off-topic but orly? How do you figure?

[pumpkin13]

He figures because in the panel that flashbacks to an image of Yoruichi's face just as he names/mentions the technique, she appears to be wearing the garments that she wore during the Soul Society incursion, not her Captain gear.

I would argue that a) she wears similar gear when she rescued Urahara and Tessai, and b) that was the last time Byakuya saw Yoruichi so he's remembering her face from then, not from when she taught him the tecnnique.

I believe she taught him a bunch of techniques during their "tag" playing when he was younger.

[Paragon]

Yes admittedly never trust the person who tells you about themselves, especially as the majority of the arrancar have been seen to be arrogant and underestimated their opponents, it's the typical "unreliable narrator" scenario.

However I genuinely think his sonido was the fastest. By adding in another step or two he can create the appearence of a clone. I highly disagree that its simply an afterimage technique. He genuinely is moving fast enough in a circular motion between four given positions that make it seem as if their are four sustained images of himself there.

As for Byakuya being faster than Ichigo... well... he didn't use Moulting Cicada against him so we'll never truly know.

I know Smach personally believes Cicada to be some kind of decoy/after image ability and not a speed based move... if that is the case, then it does not prove that Byakuya is faster than Zommari, which breaks down the whole chain of Grimmjow=Bankai Ichigo>Byakuya>Zommari.

I wasn't saying Zommari's Sonido wasn't the fastest, i was questioning as to whether or not his general speed was on par with Grimmjow and evidently that was not the case by a long shot.

[smacharia8]

He figures because in the panel that flashbacks to an image of Yoruichi's face just as he names/mentions the technique, she appears to be wearing the garments that she wore during the Soul Society incursion, not her Captain gear.

I would argue that a) she wears similar gear when she rescued Urahara and Tessai, and b) that was the last time Byakuya saw Yoruichi so he's remembering her face from then, not from when she taught him the tecnnique.

I believe she taught him a bunch of techniques during their "tag" playing when he was younger.But she wore those garments to be undetected while rescuing her buddies so why would she pass through the Kuchiki household dressed like that and why would anyone even recognize her?

[punni]

But she wore those garments to be undetected while rescuing her buddies so why would she pass through the Kuchiki household dressed like that and why would anyone even recognize her?

OT:
What are you trying to say? What scenario are you talking about?
Doesnt matter. It isnt even sure if she returned to SS after Aizen's coup. And Byakuya would never ask her to teach him, and she has better things to do than to force Byakuya to learn a new technique.
I would never guess that anyone in their right mind would even consider that Byakuya learned that technique recently.

[smacharia8]

If he can live with getting beat by Ichigo then I think he can accept Yoruichi's training especially in dire times such as these. Quit trying to make it seem like he's too dense to take a beneficial lesson or two. And flashbacks are there for a reason.

[Spectre]

First,i imagined her Bankai would be Instant Death in 1 Strike(eeww..). But that would be just boring,but i'm sure it has to do something with needles and stabbing!

[xPyrox]

Maybe she gets naked.
and Barragan has a heart attack.

FLAWLESS VICTORY.
On the bad side.

Yama might die too.

[Spectre]

[QUOTE=Paragon;1559018]Bankai Ichigo in terms of speed is above Byakuya, but Byakuya may be able to travel a further distance in one single step in Shunpo than Ichigo for example, that primarily comes down to experience.QUOTE]

Ichigo is not on equal footing with Byakuya!! He has that Molting Cicada step technique that even that Zommari bastard couldnt follow!

[pumpkin13]

He can live with getting beat by Ichigo likely because he himself considors that he went easy on Ichigo (notice i said HE, and not me) as well as that he actually likely wanted Ichigo to win (certainly by the end when his resove had been broken).

Personally I see no reason as to why Kubo would include the "tag" scenes in TBTP unless it were to implicate that this is when Yoruichi trained Byakuya. Also the likeliness that Captain Kuchiki is making Byakuya take lessons from Yoruichi under the impression that its just a bit of a fun game/ tease because he knows that Bykauya would never ever willingly submit to the tutelage of the woman he despises.

He's not dense he's just damn stubborn, it comes with the blood.

The accept Yoruichi's training in dire times as these argument is just as poor as the "Byakuya was going easy on Ichigo because he was facing inner turmoil" argument.

The "flashback" is to make bloody well sure we know he's talking about Yoruichi, for the tards that hadn't picked it up from "Shihou".

[smacharia8]

So she'd teach her "secret blah blah blah techniques" to a kid because she's good friends with grandpa? Bullocks I say, BULLOCKS!!! She used to play "tag" with him and that's where it ended. They weren't fighting or anything and on top of that Byakuya was generations below her caliber, so she's got no reason to be trying to teach him her combat ways, let alone leaving garments behind for him to think his imaginary sword is dealing damage. Simply put he wasn't at the level required for training yet.

Flashbacks refer to a specific point in time, and the image depicted in Byakuya's case can be directly linked to a period starting from Urahara's sentence to present day.

[pumpkin13]

Ah right, Urahara's sentence to present day you say? So you agree that she could have taught it to him BEFORE he was a captain? I thought you were arguing that she had (since Ichigo and the Ryoka and Aizen incident) been back to Soul Society in the last six months or so and taught it to him then. Which I find incredibly unlikely. To the point of ridicule.

However, since Urahara's exile? Well that's around 100 years in which she could have taught it to him at any point...

As for the friends with grandpa point? Well, the noble clans are all very up there, and I should imagine the head of House Shihouin would be on good terms with the head of House Kuchiki. Yoruichi is the Goddess of Flash, and Kuchiki-sama wants only the best teacher of shunpo for his heir to the clan.

And of course, there's nine years between that first game of tag and her leaving SS with Urahara, in which their game of tag could have progressed into proper training. If ten years is enough to master a bankai then I don't see why Byakuya could not progress to the point where he would be ready to learn her more specialised techniques in nine years. I believe she notes that he was already rather skilled in the use of shunpo, which makes the likeliness of him reaching the stage of specialised Houhou arts in nine years even more likely.

Ultimately my argument is that she must have taught it to Byakuya before she left SS.

[btill9000]

Bankai Ichigo in terms of speed is above Byakuya, but Byakuya may be able to travel a further distance in one single step in Shunpo than Ichigo for example, that primarily comes down to experience.

Ichigo is not on equal footing with Byakuya!! He has that Molting Cicada step technique that even that Zommari bastard couldnt follow!

I think their are two different types of speed in Bleach. Their is raw speed, which we have seen a little of from Yachiru, which involves no shunpo at all. Next their is shunpo speed which we have seen from many people. Byakuya's shunpo is probably better and faster than Ichigo's just from the experience angle, but Bankai Ichigo gains massive amounts of Raw Speed.


so she's got no reason to be trying to teach him her combat ways


Are you trying to say that she didn't teach Byakuya anything? I think we have proof that she did. To what extent and what level of the things she taught him is the discussion. If she can get inexperienced Ichigo to master shunpo over the period of three days at the same time as he is learning his shikai technique and bankai, then why can't she teach young inexperienced Byakuya some things over a period much longer than 3 days.


So she'd teach her "secret blah blah blah techniques" to a kid because she's good friends with grandpa?


Of course its a good enough reason. It's a much better reason than she had to teach Soifon anything considering that she didn't know Soifon at all. Yoroichi has been training people she had no reason to train since the beginning of the show. Soifon was basically an unexperienced kid when they met as well.

[smacharia8]

I'm saying the flashback pic depicts Yoruichi in clothing we've only seen her wear from the time of exile, not implying she kept training Byakuya in secret. Also IIRC bankai takes @least 10yrs to attain, after which comes the perfection. So yea, my opinion is she taught him the technique(s) during the few months before the HM invasion...srry. :p

What you've got is a theory, no different from mine. They weren't training formally back in the day, and to me it doesn't seem like something they even did on a daily/weekly basis. Also if he's as stubborn as you guys claim then why would he even "learn" anything from her back then and what's changed over the last 100yrs that he wouldn't be able to "learn" from her today? Personally I'd say cicada isn't very hard to learn especially for those who have good shunpo already, so it could've taken a couple days at most to grasp the concept, and then practice the rest of the time to get comfortable with it.

@btill: Ichigo learned to use shunpo from Zangetsu, who was brought out by Yoruichi via Urahara's doll. Soifon's her protege who's been by her side since the beginning of time. Byakuya's the obstinate rich kid next door whose grandpa interacts with Yoruichi.

[btill9000]

I'm saying the flashback pic depicts Yoruichi in clothing we've only seen her wear from the time of exile, not implying she kept training Byakuya in secret. Also IIRC bankai takes @least 10yrs to attain, after which comes the perfection. So yea, my opinion is she taught him the technique(s) during the few months before the HM invasion...srry. :p


So you think this same dude that spent the majority of the first part of the manga trying to kill his sister took lessons from someone that he hates?



What you've got is a theory, no different from mine. They weren't training formally back in the day, and to me it doesn't seem like something they even did on a daily/weekly basis. Also if he's as stubborn as you guys claim then why would he even "learn" anything from her back then and what's changed over the last 100yrs that he wouldn't be able to "learn" from her today? Personally I'd say cicada isn't very hard to learn especially for those who have good shunpo already, so it could've taken a couple days at most to grasp the concept, and then practice the rest of the time to get comfortable with it.


The difficulty of it to learn isn't what im questioning. I don't think Byakuya used anything he's learned recently against Zommari, but thats my opinion. Given the low level kidous he used against Ichigo and Renji, I don't think Byakuya would use anything new or recent against someone he deems to be below him. Hitsugaya is the only captain that is using things he's learned recently.....at least it's my opinion that the technique he used against Luppi was recently learned.



@btill: Ichigo learned to use shunpo from Zangetsu, who was brought out by Yoruichi via Urahara's doll. Soifon's her protege who's been by her side since the beginning of time. Byakuya's the obstinate rich kid next door whose grandpa interacts with Yoruichi.

No to all of the above.
1. Where does it say that the master of flash had nothing to do with Ichigo's shunpo training?

2. Soifon has not been by Yoruichi's side very long at all. They met when she joined the squad. They worked together for a bit then Yoruichi abandoned her. We don't know the exact time that they spent together, but Soifon was still rather inexperienced and young when Yoruichi left her. Yoruichi knew Byakuya and his grandfather longer than she's known Soifon and Ichigo put together probably.

3. Byakuya is the obstinate rich kid next door, and his grandpa is friends or associates with Yuruichi and her family. <~~~ better reason to train someone than training random people she met like Ichigo and Soifon.

[smacharia8]

So you think this same dude that spent the majority of the first part of the manga trying to kill his sister took lessons from someone that he hates?Go back and find out why he was doing it.


The difficulty of it to learn isn't what im questioning. I don't think Byakuya used anything he's learned recently against Zommari, but thats my opinion. Given the low level kidous he used against Ichigo and Renji, I don't think Byakuya would use anything new or recent against someone he deems to be below him. Hitsugaya is the only captain that is using things he's learned recently.....at least it's my opinion that the technique he used against Luppi was recently learned.As you can see it still boils down to opinion. Also, Byakuya was FORCED to use the technique, he wasn't just showcasing it around. "[He] did not want to use a technique that [he] learned form her."

[btill9000]

* responded to your edit above*

Go back and find out why he was doing it.

It doesn't matter why he was doing it. It takes a cold person to try to kill their sister for any reason. Byakuya has always been an up tight noble, but he's become cold since his wife died. I think an up tight, in experienced noble might take lessons from somebody he hates but aspires to surpass one day, but a cold up tight noble that thinks he's already surpassed just about everyone is less likely to do so.


As you can see it still boils down to opinion. Also, Byakuya was FORCED to use the technique, he wasn't just showcasing it around. "[He] did not want to use a technique that [he] learned form her.

It's all opinion and perspective in these boards......I just think just opinion is a bad one lol. Up until the point that Zommari went after Rukia, I don't think Byakuya used any notable techniques. If Zommary hadn't attacked Rukia I think that Byakuya would've went with his shikai rather than bankai.

[pumpkin13]

I'm saying the flashback pic depicts Yoruichi in clothing we've only seen her wear from the time of exile(a), not implying she kept training Byakuya in secret. Also IIRC bankai takes @least 10yrs to attain, after which comes the perfection(b). So yea, my opinion is she taught him the technique(s) during the few months before the HM invasion...srry. :p

What you've got is a theory, no different from mine. They weren't training formally back in the day(c), and to me it doesn't seem like something they even did on a daily/weekly basis (d). Also if he's as stubborn as you guys claim then why would he even "learn" anything from her back then and what's changed over the last 100yrs that he wouldn't be able to "learn" from her today(e)? Personally I'd say cicada isn't very hard to learn especially for those who have good shunpo already(f), so it could've taken a couple days at most to grasp the concept, and then practice the rest of the time to get comfortable with it.

@btill: Ichigo learned to use shunpo from Zangetsu, who was brought out by Yoruichi via Urahara's doll. Soifon's her protege who's been by her side since the beginning of time. Byakuya's the obstinate rich kid next door whose grandpa interacts with Yoruichi.

a) I argue that she's in those clothes in the flashback because i) it's when Byakuya last saw her and ii) it's what she was wearing when we last saw her.

b) to attain it or perfect it, it doesn't really change my point.

c) Yoruichi didn't train Byakuya formally because she knew he wouldnt submit to her tutelage. By stealing his hairband she essentially forced him into a game of "tag" in which, whether he liked it or not, he would learn to get faster.

d) "Did you ever win even once against me in Onigoto?" - sounds like it happened quite a few times, one might push so far as to say even a regular basis.
http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000106842/13.jpg

e) Because he was younger and had not progressed to the extent that he has in modern days, there was more for him to learn and by attempting to keep up with someone who was faster than himself, whether he liked it or not, he would get better at shunpo. He considers himself better than all arrancar, so I don't see why he would take the time to learn a new technique especially for them in the first place. Doing so would be admitting to himself that he needs more to win. If he'd learnt that technique by himself in secret then I would completely agree that it was learnt after beating Ichigo, but because Yoruichi would have to be involved... well, he would never admit to anyone that he wasn't good enough let alone someone who he despises.

f) Onmitsu are highly skilled in the ways of ninjutsu, so if it's a method of the onmitsu then it is unlikely to be simple to grasp even if one is relatively proficient of shunpo.

He's just simply far too arrogant to confess to anyone that, despite having reached captain level, he's still not good enough.

If the point of this scene is not to infer that Yoruichi "trained" (said as such because she is training him without him realising it in playing a game which requires him to push himself to keep up with her) Byakuya in improving his shunpo, and as such likely taught him at some point during this period of training her techniques, then what is the point of the scene?

[smacharia8]

No to all of the above.
1. Where does it say that the master of flash had nothing to do with Ichigo's shunpo training?

2. Soifon has not been by Yoruichi's side very long at all. They met when she joined the squad. They worked together for a bit then Yoruichi abandoned her. We don't know the exact time that they spent together, but Soifon was still rather inexperienced and young when Yoruichi left her. Yoruichi knew Byakuya and his grandfather longer than she's known Soifon and Ichigo put together probably.

3. Byakuya is the obstinate rich kid next door, and his grandpa is friends or associates with Yuruichi and her family. <~~~ better reason to train someone than training random people she met like Ichigo and Soifon.1) More importantly, where does it say, imply or show that she did?

2) Soifon was in the executive militia for 7yrs prior to being promoted to Yoruichi's personal guard, after which they trained and went on battle missions together. Doesn't matter how long Yoruichi knew Byakuya, the fact of the matter is she spent more time with Soifon than him. Knowing someone and working with them are two different things, and Soifon had the better of both.

3) Battle experience > playing "tag". Familial lineage and relations don't account for jack.

It doesn't matter why he was doing it. It takes a cold person to try to kill their sister for any reason. Byakuya has always been an up tight noble, but he's become cold since his wife died. I think an up tight, in experienced noble might take lessons from somebody he hates but aspires to surpass one day, but a cold up tight noble that thinks he's already surpassed just about everyone is less likely to do so.He already acknowledges his inferiority to Yoruichi, and with Rukia there was a conflict of interest. There's no oath preventing him from learning from Yoruichi.

It's all opinion and perspective in these boards......I just think just opinion is a bad one lol. Up until the point that Zommari went after Rukia, I don't think Byakuya used any notable techniques. If Zommary hadn't attacked Rukia I think that Byakuya would've went with his shikai rather than bankai.Didn't use any notable techniques? Kidou and shunpo we're already familiar with, shihouin techniques on the other hand... :p I guess shikai would've worked on Zomari but Byakuya would've still been rather vulnerable since Zomari's view wouldn't be completely blocked, but yea Zomari's attempt on his "pride" more than likely had something to do with him using bankai.

a) I argue that she's in those clothes in the flashback because i) it's when Byakuya last saw her and ii) it's what she was wearing when we last saw her.

b) to attain it or perfect it, it doesn't really change my point.

c) Yoruichi didn't train Byakuya formally because she knew he wouldnt submit to her tutelage. By stealing his hairband she essentially forced him into a game of "tag" in which, whether he liked it or not, he would learn to get faster.

d) "Did you ever win even once against me in Onigoto?" - sounds like it happened quite a few times, one might push so far as to say even a regular basis.
http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000106842/13.jpg

e) Because he was younger and had not progressed to the extent that he has in modern days, there was more for him to learn and by attempting to keep up with someone who was faster than himself, whether he liked it or not, he would get better at shunpo. He considers himself better than all arrancar, so I don't see why he would take the time to learn a new technique especially for them in the first place. Doing so would be admitting to himself that he needs more to win. If he'd learnt that technique by himself in secret then I would completely agree that it was learnt after beating Ichigo, but because Yoruichi would have to be involved... well, he would never admit to anyone that he wasn't good enough let alone someone who he despises.

f) Onmitsu are highly skilled in the ways of ninjutsu, so if it's a method of the onmitsu then it is unlikely to be simple to grasp even if one is relatively proficient of shunpo.

He's just simply far too arrogant to confess to anyone that, despite having reached captain level, he's still not good enough.

g) If the point of this scene is not to infer that Yoruichi "trained" (said as such because she is training him without him realising it in playing a game which requires him to push himself to keep up with her) Byakuya in improving his shunpo, and as such likely taught him at some point during this period of training her techniques, then what is the point of the scene?a) I disagree because every other flashback wasn't picked/used in such a fashion.

b) Was just correcting you...

c) Getting faster =/= using Yoruichi's battle techniques but it's a crucial step nonetheless.

d) 9yrs between quoted event and Yoruichi's informal resignation, thus your point is moot.

e) lol doesn't have to mean he learned it specifically for them, and with age comes maturity. His remark alone shows he didn't think he would even need to use it against them. And training doesn't require you to "admit to anyone" that you're not the best, especially when that person is already superior to you. From obstinacy to insecurity...you guys will go the extra mile to prove your point, even at the cost of the character's personality, eh?

f) Jeez, not good enough compared to who? The woman with the title GODDESS OF FLASH? Or is it the man with the title COMMANDER GENERAL whose zanpakuto is said to be THE STRONGEST IN HISTORY? Seriously, you guys are prying too much onto Byakuya's pride. Lineage has only been shown to have a direct connection to the ability to obtain bankai, not the shihouin clan's prized techniques and artifacts for combat. I'm no Byakufan but damn dude, cut the guy some slack already! :amazed:

Also the wordplay you used with onmitsu and the other stuff, JuNi translates the except as "The third of the secret stepping arts known as 'Shihou'." He already knows "flash step" so learning a complimentary technique doesn't sound like a tedious task to me.

g) Seems you still don't get my point. The flashback has Yoruichi in the clothes she's been wearing since the day she left SS, so Byakuya must've learned the technique AFTER the pendulum arc. And the only time he could've interacted with her without the conflict of law, etc. is between Aizen's departure and the shinigami invasion into HM.

[Zero-sama]

REGARDING THE SOI FONG DEFEATING BARRAGAN THREAD

We all know that the gotei 13 has a unique Lab. The lab that created the eye patch for Zaraki. The Lab that is directed by the genius of Mayuri. Mayuri could have easily created "something" so all the captains, could have perfected their techniques, bankai's, shikai, kido or any other ablity, for the big fight. They where not gonna go empty handed to Karakura town, specially Captains like Toushiro. He could have easily perfected more his bankai with the help of Mayuri, and Soi Fong could have perfected her Shunko, cause I highly doubt that she has an imperfect bankai, hello guys she is the captain of the 2nd Division in the Gotei 13, and i hope you know what the second division stands for, is no stupid or brainless division. If somebody says here, that Mayuri would not want to help them, they can be right, but when the orders come from above (YAMAMOTO) you have to respect and obey them.

[smacharia8]

I don't think Mayuri can make any gizmo that automatically upgrades your skills to their peak, nor do I think anyone of the current captains would be interested in becoming guinea pigs for his crazy experiments. Hell, Zaraki probably took the patch only because he couldn't do anything about his reiatsu and doesn't have much regard for his own well being.

But who knows, I guess there's alwasy the possibility he's made or done something that will help their performance when things heat up. I don't see it happening though. :p

[Levy]

I don't think Mayuri can make any gizmo that automatically upgrades your skills to their peak, nor do I think anyone of the current captains would be interested in becoming guinea pigs for his crazy experiments. Hell, Zaraki probably took the patch only because he couldn't do anything about his reiatsu and doesn't have much regard for his own well being.

But who knows, I guess there's alwasy the possibility he's made or done something that will help their performance when things heat up. I don't see it happening though. :p


Iirc Zaraki stated that he asked the Bureau of techs to make it so that he wouldn't 1 shot people and could have fun for a couple more seconds ;)

[mansher]

I really can't see Soi Fong beat Barragan. Its like Soi Fong vs Yamamoto all of sudden. However if Kudo draw Soi Fong beat Barragan I'll seriously doubt Bleach forever with its inconsistencies. Soi fong vs Barragan is one thing. But Soi fong BEAT barragan is TOO much.

[Matt]

Can someone show me the page in the manga where it shows this flashback of Yourichi and byakuya.

And I doubt Mayuri did any of that sort, he is a mad scientist like Urahara, but I think he's more interesting to finding weaknesses, like making poisons and stuff, he's the type to not increase someone's power in a way, but decrease the enemies powers.

Urahara was the type to increase the power of somebody. The hougoku, helping Ichigo get his powers back + the hollow, the white shield to make the spirit materialize itself, the skin he made for himself so if they'd attack him, itll take the damage instead (used when Loppi came to town, forgot what it was called).

I also think he needed the patch, because he couldn't control it enough to stop it from leaking and killing weaker shinigami that crossed him, jsut the sheer force of his reiastu would kill lower level shinigami if they crossed him (thats my opinion).

Zaraki is just a beast/monster, he's not the type to learn fancy moves, just moves that will help him enjoy a fight for as long as possible, and kendo because he was forced too.

Does anyone think he has more spiritual pressure than any other captain?

doesn't mean he's the most powerful, cause I know shunsui, ukitake, unohana, or yama can defeat him 1 on 1.


^@Mansher:

What? lolll. lmaooo, its nothing like SoiFon vs Yama, cause that would mean barragan is at yama's level, which also means the captains are as good as dead. That was some funny stuff you said.

But, you have no point to say that SoiFon should lose, she has her bankai and her Shikai is hax enough (not saying that she will win with her Shikai). And her Shunko. Obviously Kubo has good reasons for never showing her Bankai.

[smacharia8]

@Levy: Manga-Rain's trans says otherwise but there's nothing else to compare to asaid form the anime, so you could pick up the ch113 raw at B7 and request a trans from someone who knows Japanese. I'm a little weary of the animator's script on this one.

@Matt: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.03/01/

[Matt]

I meant, the picture that u and pumpkin were aruging about :P

[smacharia8]

I meant, the picture that u and pumpkin were aruging about :PIt's a series of pages starting from page 10 of chapter -105:
http://www.readbleach.com/?ch=-105

[Sessou]

That's why the thing that she has that we don't expect is the combination of her Shunko and Bankai. The last resort to defeat Barragan, well that's the reason why Barragan will loose.

Problem is, she couldn't hope to use it in this situation. Even Yourichi has trouble controlling it. It would be a last resort if anything else, and likely kill herself in the process.

[Lnrd]

What? lolll. lmaooo, its nothing like SoiFon vs Yama, cause that would mean barragan is at yama's level, which also means the captains are as good as dead. That was some funny stuff you said.

But, you have no point to say that SoiFon should lose, she has her bankai and her Shikai is hax enough (not saying that she will win with her Shikai). And her Shunko. Obviously Kubo has good reasons for never showing her Bankai.

I can only hope Barragan is at that level, he should at least cause Yama to go bankai if they fought. I guess the reason I want these espada to be so strong is because I would hate the idea of Kubo just dumping 10 new VL espada on us. Because if he did that it would have been a waste of like 2 years worth of manga.

EDIT: And the good reason Kubo never showed her bankai was to insure that Yoruichi would win their little fight.

[punni]

@smacharia8:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-176-page-8.html
Aizen wears a captain's haori in the flashback although he is only VC. (I know KT somewhere admitted that it was by mistake)
It seems KT pays far less attention to the clothing in flashback panels than you do. The point is that the reader recognizes the person in the flashback.
--> The clothes in the picture dont give a compelling clue about when Byakuya learned the technique.

Furthermore:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-299-page-19.html
It is black and white, no certain way to tell what she wears.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-320-page-13.html
It could be this with tucked up sleeves and a scarf.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-159-page-11.html
It could be this. (Thats from a flashback from before TBTP)

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-328-page-14.html
It isnt this. (No white/bright sleeves)

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-118-page-19.html
It could be this, because that was the last time that technique was used.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-226-page-5.html
Or this. I think thats your choice.

Anyway, KT spent half a chapter to emphasize that Yoruichi "trained" Byakuya as a kid/adolescent.

And we have not one hint that Yoruichi was in SS after she left with Ichigo and Co.
(Omake doesnt count; and she only visited Ukitake or was strolling around)
And if she did that she wasnt in cat form like usually.
And if that was the case that she visited Byakuya's mansion and without any reason offered to teach him a few shunpo techniques
(he hoped he would never use --> it couldnt have been his request),
instead of practicing Shunko with Soi fon so Soi fon wouldnt kill herself the next time she tries to use it.
Additionally if she did all that it could hardly been more than a month, because of her appearances in the RW.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-195-page-2.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-227-page-7.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-230-page-18.html
Hard to tell how much time passed after that.

Cliff notes:
In short your theory gives far more trouble while it makes less sense.

btw. I dont think anyone in SS learned anything new (exception no time-limit on Hitsu) because of what Ukitake said.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-230-page-5.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-230-page-6.html



oh, and could someone tell me what Byakuya has to do with the ridiculous statement from OP.

[pumpkin13]

Nice post Punni. I'm inclined to believe its NOT the orange and black clothing that she wore during the SS arc, because, as you can see from Punni's sources of that clothing, it features strange little shoulder clasp type things, whereas you see none on that flashback, you'd be able to see is just under the bottom of the speach bubble.

[smacharia8]

Hitsu didn't improve either, the time limit is still there. He said he can reform his bankai as long as there's water in the atmosphere, but we've know the petals still show up when his bankai takes damage (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/232/11/) and IMO when the rate of use is greater than the rate of replenishment. That's more of a special advantage of his elemental zanapkuto than it is an improvement. So I wouldn't say it's new just because he didn't use it when his reiatsu was limited and he was receiving injury after injury from Shawlong, nor do I think releasing in the C46 basement gives him much environmental support.


I know Kubo makes mistakes from time to time (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/341/09/) but that alone doesn't mean everything should be taken with a tablespoon of salt. Yoruichi's hair in the flashback is also longer than how she kept it during her captaincy, and the outfit in Soifon's flashback is her militia top (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-159-page-15.html) not some cloth she could loosely wrap around her shoulders. If Yoruichi herself says she can't fully control shunko [without damage going everywhere] then I'm rather positive she wouldn't try to "teach" Soifon for the same reason Urahara wouldn't train Chad with his bankai. It's implied that shunko is ub3r, not that it can kill the user.

Like I said, learning a technique based on something you already know wouldn't take much time at all; you get the concept in a day or two (or even a couple hours), then put it into practice till you gain confidence in your performance. For someone like Byakuya who's already proficient in shunpo, learning a couple techniques shouldn't be a tedious task at all.


So no, my theory doesn't cause more trouble because I take it at face value (as flashbacks are intended to be) and it doesn't make less sense because it's a technique based on something Byakuya is already proficient in, meaning a couple weeks should be more than plentiful for him. Yoruichi's hair and clothing are more akin to her post-exile attire, which consists of uncut hair, a scarf-like cloth, and possibly the military top she's otherwise seen wearing within the family/militia grounds (or something similar to it). I say possibly because the one she wears in Soifon's flashback seems to have a popped collar of some sort and looks rather starched to me, but it could just be misinterpretation on my part...or detail errors on Kubo's part.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-159-page-15.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-118-page-8.html

[Matt]

I can only hope Barragan is at that level, he should at least cause Yama to go bankai if they fought. I guess the reason I want these espada to be so strong is because I would hate the idea of Kubo just dumping 10 new VL espada on us. Because if he did that it would have been a waste of like 2 years worth of manga.

EDIT: And the good reason Kubo never showed her bankai was to insure that Yoruichi would win their little fight.

Yourichi could have also chosen to use her zanpakuto if Soi Fon went Bankai, its hidden I believe (only speculation), because it is a short zanpakuto

http://cdimg3.crunchyroll.com/i/spire2/01282008/b/6/d/4/b6d48777207e70_full.jpg

Yeah at least make yama him go bankai

But Yama was still very confident when he was fighting Ukitake and Shunsui at the same time.

If we're hoping on Shunsui to win, then barragan is not at Yama's level.

[Lnrd]

@ Matt- I'm personally not hoping for a Shunsui win because this is the perfect time for Kubo to redeem arrancars. Because, so far their level is nothing compared to what we first thought of them.

And, I don't think Yoruichi has had hewr zan near her in the recent fights. I'm starting think that maybe she picked it up when she went back to SS. Because in the flashbacks arc, she didn't have it on her when she rescued Kisuke and Tessai.

[pumpkin13]

I for one personally believe that Yoruichi's zan's either concealed form (ie. like yama's cane) or its shikai form is the ribbon that she used to stop Byakuya from releasing on the bridge. She uses it in at least one other encounter although i cannot remember exactly where that is.

[Lnrd]

I for one personally believe that Yoruichi's zan's either concealed form (ie. like yama's cane) or its shikai form is the ribbon that she used to stop Byakuya from releasing on the bridge. She uses it in at least one other encounter although i cannot remember exactly where that is.

I'm sorry but if Kubo makes her zan having to do anything with a ribbon he's gone crazy.

[punni]

@smacharia:

very nice spot and interesting theory, but I disagree.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/232/11/
the third "petal", as you dub it, is far away while the others are in place, that doesnt make any sense. And wouldnt have at least one vanished from the severe damage he took.

@Byakuya discussion,

It is easily her militia top, as you call it, plus a scarf, of which she would have plenty when she was active head of her clan.
But yeah, it is probably showing her in her most recent clothing/appearance. But you cant think KT would draw her in a haori just to make sure even people like you get it right. When he obviously wanted to save 'Yoruichi in a haori' for TBTP. So please explain, what clothing would have convinced you that it is a 'long ago' flashback.

Anyway, you still attach too much importance to her appearance in the flashback panel. If Byakuya had added 'so long ago' to the last setence, would your head have exploded?

I like how you choose to ignore inconvenient parts. Anyway, Id like to hear your rambling about why Byakuya would say that he didnt intend to use a technique he actively and only recently seeked to learn. Or rather dont, you'll spin it that Byakuya was only trying to insult Zommari.
But I cant really imagine your reason for Yoruichi to go to Byakuya? (Her earliest possible visit in SS would be when Orihime goes, that would be too late to visit a still recuperating Byakuya)

[Matt]

I for one personally believe that Yoruichi's zan's either concealed form (ie. like yama's cane) or its shikai form is the ribbon that she used to stop Byakuya from releasing on the bridge. She uses it in at least one other encounter although i cannot remember exactly where that is.

I dont think its a ribbon :P

But its concealed, and Yeah I do remember her using it in the SS arc I believe, but I also don't remember where.

Anyways, its very short, and can easily be hidden.

But Shunsui will win, thats what kubo does, hides someone power until its nessicary to use it at the right moment.

And itll suck if they make Shunsui lose the first fight we've actually seen him get serious in. It'll hurt me a lot lol XD.

[Athane]

I dont think its a ribbon :P

But its concealed, and Yeah I do remember her using it in the SS arc I believe, but I also don't remember where.

Anyways, its very short, and can easily be hidden.

But Shunsui will win, thats what kubo does, hides someone power until its nessicary to use it at the right moment.

And itll suck if they make Shunsui lose the first fight we've actually seen him get serious in. It'll hurt me a lot lol XD.

Yes you are correct she does use the ribbon twice. Both of those during the SS arc. Once to keep Byakuya from "chire senobonzakura" and the next time on Sokyokou hill when her and Soifon "subdue" Aizen.

[smacharia8]

@smacharia:

very nice spot and interesting theory, but I disagree.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/232/11/
the third "petal", as you dub it, is far away while the others are in place, that doesnt make any sense. And wouldnt have at least one vanished from the severe damage he took.They don't disappear instantaneously and he was insta-KO'd in one panel so I don't expect to get a second panel of his petals when he's practically off screen.

The petals weren't there when his bankai got smashed but they popped up when he got hit. Only one of them was directly above him, but I don't see what significance their displacement plays when he's in freefall and possibly half-conscious as well. Their presence is what matters, not their relative location.

Anyways the point is the time limit is still there, what we learned from the Luppi fight is that Hitsugaya's bankai can be reformed/repaired as long as there's water present. Otherwise what would you say is the purpose of the petals now? The only other theory I've heard of is it's a countdown to Sennen Hyourou (Thousand Year Ice Prison) but that sounds lame to me, and I think Hitsugaya would've made note of Shawlong's observation if it was indeed wrong.


Thanks BTW. ^_^

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

I dont think its a ribbon :P

But its concealed, and Yeah I do remember her using it in the SS arc I believe, but I also don't remember where.

Anyways, its very short, and can easily be hidden.

But Shunsui will win, thats what kubo does, hides someone power until its nessicary to use it at the right moment.

And itll suck if they make Shunsui lose the first fight we've actually seen him get serious in. It'll hurt me a lot lol XD.

On the same note, Kubo could also hide Stark's true power untill the very end and therefore cause Shunsui to lose. Try not to use absolutes because at the moment we really know nothing of the majority of character's true powers.

[punni]

;) I agree the alternative explanation is lame. But I dont like the idea that just being w/o limiter and in the open, would make Hitsu's petals disappear.

one last thing on the flashback discussion.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-87-page-12.html
Ichigo talks about Urahara training him, but thats not how Urahara looked when he trained Ichigo.

on topic:

Soi fon will lose, no matter what bankai she has, or whether it is compatible with Shunko or not.


On the same note, Kubo could also hide Stark's true power untill the very end and therefore cause Shunsui to lose. Try not to use absolutes because at the moment we really know nothing of the majority of character's true powers.


Stark is one of the new lame characters (Espada), of whom we knew from the beginning that they will all be destroyed eventually.

Shunsui is one the old cool characters (G13), who somehow will prevail in the end.

But yeah, Stark will be really strong. That is necessary to show how strong Shunsui is.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

I wouldn't at all be surprised to see Shunsui be killed by Stark and see Ukitake go nuts. At this point in time, it just feels right to see one of the more senior characters be killed. I mean come on, there's no way SS isn't going to lose at least one of their captains in this fight.

[Yayap]

I don't know why Hits Bankai is being discussed here, but his petal's were there from the moment he said Bankai against Aizen, the first time we saw it. This is before Aizen humiliated him, thus he had taken no damage:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/18-19/

On-topic, I see no reason why Shunko would not be compatible with a Bankai. In Soifon's case, maybe if her Bankai is something particularly unsuited to the combat style she has used thus far. But I'd be inclined to think that she would keep it as her ace in the hole. Barragan would expect her to have Bankai, but not to have Shunko, never mind combining it with her shikai/bankai

[pumpkin13]

my shunkou not compatible theory with bankai (mainly in relation to Yoruichi) was along these lines of thinking:

Shunkou concentrates reiatsu into the fists... whereas if Yoruichi's shikai/bankai is a sword type, then when you swing the sword you aim to put the power into a centrifugal point on along the edge of the blade. Thus the power that would have been gathered in the fists would be wasted. Unless she can control shunkou to a point where she can transfer the power collected in her arms/fists ONTO the blade of her sword.

It would work better for shikai sofion, because shikai soifons release is a bracer/gauntlet type set up, so she has to "stab" / punch with her fist to get the attack in anyway. But Soifon's shikai negates the need for extra power anyway with its ghey uberhaxness.

[smacharia8]

;) I agree the alternative explanation is lame. But I dont like the idea that just being w/o limiter and in the open, would make Hitsu's petals disappear.

one last thing on the flashback discussion.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-87-page-12.html
Ichigo talks about Urahara training him, but thats not how Urahara looked when he trained Ichigo.That's Ikkaku associating name with the man...which actually makes me think, since he most likely became a shinigami so he could pled his alliegance to Zaraki. So if he knows about Urahara when he was captain, it does raise the possibility that Zaraki was captain during the pendulum chapters. But then again, only the anime has Ikkaku becoming a shinigami right after Zaraki takes over 11th, so it may as well be bullocks. :p

As for the petals, it's not that the limiter makes them disappear. The limiter restricts his reiatsu, so he can't replenish his bankai efficiently like when he can use his reiatsu fully. And like I said about the Aizen issue, water is more abundant outside in the environment than in the C46 basement.

Shunko is a body upgrade so it makes them stronger regardless. Yoruichi may not be able to punch with her sword hand but her swings and jabs should pack more power when shunko is activated.

[pumpkin13]

Yeah my point was what about when her shikai or bankai is activated and its possibly a blade based weapon, not a gauntlet/fist based weapon?

I seriously doubt having plenty of moisture in the atmosphere of C46 basement would have helped Hits in that situation.

[smacharia8]

Well of course Aizen would've owned him regardless but more moisture may've made the petals disappear.

Like I said, her sword swings would be more powerful because shunko enhances the user's body for combat.

[TwelveGauge]

Barragan will loose to soifon because she'll start crying and then yourichi will appear and go to town on him and lets face it, your chances of surviving an angry yoruichi encounter are very, very slim.

[Lnrd]

^ And where exactly did you get Yoruichi > Barragan.

[TwelveGauge]

It's not so much that I'm saying that she's inately more powerful that Barragan, for all I know Barragan could snuff her out of existance with a thought (but I doubt that), it's just that if Soifon gets really beat up and in serious danger, it could give yoruichi more cause than barragan. If that does happen, then having a stronger cause than an opponent hardens resolve which does crazy things to a person's reiatsu which in Yoruichi's case could yeild devistating results.

But in the end only time will tell.

*if this is really confused and makes no sense at all let me know and I'll re-post when I'm more compus-mentus.

We also saw her beat up Yammi with no shunko and little effort, unlike Hitsugaya who is now against #3. So it seems to me, what with the way they've been building her character and everything, that she should be able to do battle with the upper levels of the Espada.

[Baishin]

We haven't even seen Barragan's strength yet, I dont see how you can derive at this so soon

[Keiretsu]

@Kensei: Little/no effort? Did she damage her hand punching Yammi? YAMMI. Not Barragan who is significantly stronger. But YAMMI.

I hope that this will be the time where at least Yama needs to step in to save more of his own, Soi-Fon should -not- win against Barragan. Because as someone else said, that only means we get to see TEN MORE ESPADA. Hooray for wasted time on Bleach. That really doesn't sit well with me. =P

That said, I think that at the very least. Losing some captains in this "war" would help redeem the arrancar. Though, you can instantly rule out Hits from ever dying since his popularity has granted him immunity. (Though, I'd be interested to see how Momo would respond to Hits dying in this war, it could be the chance for some interesting VC->Captain development.)

But I digress.

[TwelveGauge]

@Kensei: Little/no effort? Did she damage her hand punching Yammi? YAMMI. Not Barragan who is significantly stronger. But YAMMI.

(Though, I'd be interested to see how Momo would respond to Hits dying in this war, it could be the chance for some interesting VC->Captain development.)

But I digress.

Ok, ok, so that entire post is filled with so many errors and stupid things i wish i had never wrote it.

you're right though, if Hitsu dies then it would be interesting to see what exactly Hinamori would do (images of Hinamori as the Hulk come to mind).

[Davo1515]

I believe Soifon will lose. However, since there is little known about the to combators other than one has been sitting on his ass while Soifon drags her fight out with Ggio, it's hard to say. I think Hitsugaya shouldnt b the only one (Capt) to lose to a upper espada and since Kyoraku wont lose to Stark (no that im saying Stark will lose) it must b Soifon. Currently, Soifon's bankai hasnt been revealed so any current reference to it is pointless. We also know nothing about Barragan so we cant say Soifon+Shikai/Shunko will auto-defeat Barragan. Soifon has already been through a prolonged fight and Barragen hasnt. Looking at it this way, Soifon is at a disadvantage and therefore will lose.

Summed up: Soifon has fought already, so she is likely to b more tired. She has no advantage since we cant say her Shikai/Shunko/both is >Barragan as we dont know anything about him. Her Bankai is irrelevant as we havent seen it so we cant say it is nuff to beat Barragen either. This gives Barragen an adv while i see no adv for Soifon. So as it stands, Barragen>Soifon but that could definetely change.

If i have missed or im wrong on anything plz inform me and i will correct/add it.

[Matt]

@Kensei: Little/no effort? Did she damage her hand punching Yammi? YAMMI. Not Barragan who is significantly stronger. But YAMMI.

I hope that this will be the time where at least Yama needs to step in to save more of his own, Soi-Fon should -not- win against Barragan. Because as someone else said, that only means we get to see TEN MORE ESPADA. Hooray for wasted time on Bleach. That really doesn't sit well with me. =P

That said, I think that at the very least. Losing some captains in this "war" would help redeem the arrancar. Though, you can instantly rule out Hits from ever dying since his popularity has granted him immunity. (Though, I'd be interested to see how Momo would respond to Hits dying in this war, it could be the chance for some interesting VC->Captain development.)

But I digress.

About yourichi, please reread the chapter, she got hurt because he had steel skin. Even at captain level, hand to hand combat against someone like yammi will hurt you. But she kicked his ass, easily, without even trying. And it wasnt even a serious injury, at all. Yourichi is very strong, obviously. I mean from the looks at what we seen, she would have most likely beat a captain at shikai/shunko while using her own more improved shunko without any zanpakuto. We don't even know what her shikai and bankai are. So if soifon loses, and yourichi comes in, she will deff give barragan a good fight (im still going for soifon win).

Well Aizen has something up his sleeve, something different, probably more hollows, or hoping the vizards will fight for him, but stark halibel and barragan will lose the battle. Sorry, and probably no captains wont die or lose a battle (obv except hitsugaya)... but they again, all the hitsulovers, hitsu will probably have a super saiyan moment and win. I will be mad if he wins :|, only if they have some SUPER reasonable explanation.



I believe Soifon will lose. However, since there is little known about the to combators other than one has been sitting on his ass while Soifon drags her fight out with Ggio, it's hard to say. I think Hitsugaya shouldnt b the only one (Capt) to lose to a upper espada and since Kyoraku wont lose to Stark (no that im saying Stark will lose) it must b Soifon. Currently, Soifon's bankai hasnt been revealed so any current reference to it is pointless. We also know nothing about Barragan so we cant say Soifon+Shikai/Shunko will auto-defeat Barragan. Soifon has already been through a prolonged fight and Barragen hasnt. Looking at it this way, Soifon is at a disadvantage and therefore will lose.

Summed up: Soifon has fought already, so she is likely to b more tired. She has no advantage since we cant say her Shikai/Shunko/both is >Barragan as we dont know anything about him. Her Bankai is irrelevant as we havent seen it so we cant say it is nuff to beat Barragen either. This gives Barragen an adv while i see no adv for Soifon. So as it stands, Barragen>Soifon but that could definetely change.

If i have missed or im wrong on anything plz inform me and i will correct/add it.

She had a play fight with a fraccion, she's deff not tired and hardly wasted any energy. Now your just giving barragan too much credit. We don't know anything about barragan, but you can't just rule out that her bankai + shunko wont help her. If she loses, it will be a very very close match. The adv for soifon is that she has a bankai, even if we don't know what it is, she still has it.

[Kingkon]

, she god and hardly wasted any energy. Now your just giving barragan too much credit. We don't know anything about barragan, but you can't just rule out that her bankai + shunko wont help her. If she loses, it will be a very very close match. The adv for soifon is that she has a bankai, even if we don't know what it is, she still has it.

and you are giving Soifon too much credit, her bankai means nothing when Ichigo's bankai doesn't do anything against the 4th Espada, Soifon's shikai will be useless against Barragan and you can quote me on that therefore she will have to go Bankai.

If Soifon loses she will lose without Barragan releasing cause then someone would have to take her place fighting Barragan it could be Yama, Yorouichi or what have you but Barragan will release when he is fighting somebody who is much more powerful.

[Zero-sama]

and you are giving Soifon too much credit, her bankai means nothing when Ichigo's bankai doesn't do anything against the 4th Espada, Soifon's shikai will be useless against Barragan and you can quote me on that therefore she will have to go Bankai.


The difference between Soi Fong and Ichigo are Huge, there is a big gap between them, first Ichigo has a Bankai not fully mastered, and he learned his bankai the other day. While I am 100% sure that Soi Fong has mastered her Bankai and has learned all the powers and abilities that has. Like I stated before she is Captain of the 2nd division she has to be always prepared for the unexpected. She could have killed Ulquiorra already, if he was her opponent.

[pumpkin13]

Could she? Could she really? Do you think she could lay a single touch on him let alone two?

Fair enough Soifon's speed might... just might be faster than Ichigo's... but his bankai is a speed based bankai, that's basically his area of speciality, he has little else to his name as far as bankai alone is concerned.

And yet Ulquiorra is completely outclassing him. His speed FAR surpasses that of Ichigo's. And from this page (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/342/17/) I am inclined to believe that even though Ulquiorra has stepped his game up a notch, he still has plenty more to give before even having to considor his resurrecion. Look at him, he's not even trying, against the full might (plus angar) of Ichigo's bankai. Ichi puts the power of a GT into his swing and Ulquiorra flicks it away as if it were nothing.

Basically put we have no upper limit on Ulquiorra's speed, whereas we've seen Soifon at her best keeping up with Yoruichi, if she could have gone faster no doubt she would have to try and gain the hand over the Yoruichi (who herself is a slightly different case, she's out of shape and had no intention of killing Soifon).

Added on top of that Barrigan is two ranks above Ulquiorra. I think her shikai is going to be useless because she won't even be able to get a hit on him.

Her bankai might be something like a kage bunshin style ability which creates like five or six of her which might stand a better chance at attacking simultaneously from different angles and landing a hit, but still... no upper limit...

[Exploits]

Her bankai might be something like a kage bunshin style ability which creates like five or six of her which might stand a better chance at attacking simultaneously from different angles and landing a hit, but still... no upper limit...

I always thought that. Her shikai looks like a damn bee, and I kinda figured her bankai would follow something like an entire Bee Hive charging the crap out of you.

[Kingkon]

The difference between Soi Fong and Ichigo are Huge, there is a big gap between them, first Ichigo has a Bankai not fully mastered, and he learned his bankai the other day. While I am 100% sure that Soi Fong has mastered her Bankai and has learned all the powers and abilities that has. Like I stated before she is Captain of the 2nd division she has to be always prepared for the unexpected. She could have killed Ulquiorra already, if he was her opponent.

yeah sure thats why she lost to Yorouchi and got her ass kicked by a fraccion, Ichigo just beat a mid-teir captain and don't F*kin tell me Soifon is in the same category as Yama, Shinsui, or Unohana

[pumpkin13]

If Soifon can land a single touch on a maximum speed Ulquiorra i'll be impressed. But i don't think there's anyway she could do so to Barrigan whose two ranks superior to Ulqui. It's as simple as that.

[Kingkon]

If Soifon can land a single touch on a maximum speed Ulquiorra i'll be impressed. But i don't think there's anyway she could do so to Barrigan whose two ranks superior to Ulqui. It's as simple as that.

speed is not her problem its their heirro, I can guarantee it will be too hard for her shikai to peirce making it useless against espadas

[Exploits]

speed is not her problem its their heirro, I can guarantee it will be too hard for her shikai to peirce making it useless against espadas

This has probably been asked MILLIONS of times but;

Has it ever been specific in the fact that she has to stab them, or only that she has to hit them? Not a clear difference in meanings, but a difference nonetheless.

[paradise_found]

i don't think people give her enough credit. she's only fought two fights, and one of them she lost because at that time in the story, she was an antagonist fighting against a protagonist. she lost that fight because of convenience, not lack of ability.

and ggio vega... whether she was getting beat or not, when she decided to end the fight, the fight ended within seconds.

always keep in mind that she is the leader of a group of bodyguards and assassins- there's no way she can't be a tough cookie.

kitty-worship aside, of course

[pumpkin13]

Everytime those bodyguards/ assassins show up they get raped... they hardly have a reputation for being hardcore. Hell even the kidou corps seem to survive longer than them.

Gio Vega sacrificed speed to bulk up his strength. He proved himself capable of keeping up with her close combat reactions.

[Matt]

If Soifon can land a single touch on a maximum speed Ulquiorra i'll be impressed. But i don't think there's anyway she could do so to Barrigan whose two ranks superior to Ulqui. It's as simple as that.

Its not as simple as that, yes the ranks show who is stronger overall, but it does not mean that just because barragan is at a higher rank that every single ability is better then Ulquiorra's own abilities.

@KingKon: Reread the chapter, she was playing around with the fraccion. She even says it, a captain does not need to lie in anyway fighting against an opponent that she's gonna kill within the same minute. Once she said that, she flash stepped, stabbed, and killed.

Youruichi is stronger than SoiFon.

"The difference between Soi Fong and Ichigo are Huge, there is a big gap between them, first Ichigo has a Bankai not fully mastered, and he learned his bankai the other day. While I am 100% sure that Soi Fong has mastered her Bankai and has learned all the powers and abilities that has. Like I stated before she is Captain of the 2nd division she has to be always prepared for the unexpected. She could have killed Ulquiorra already, if he was her opponent."

well done.

but I dont think she could have killed ulq 1, 2 ,3 lol. Thats a little too much XD

[pumpkin13]

You are quite correct in your approach to how the ranks don't mean that the higher they are the more superior they are in every aspect, if that were the case Bleach would be even more boring that it already is, hence their abilities which can aid them or even hinder them in various scenarios. Look at GJ, #6 so a rank lower than Noitra yet he was almost certainly faster than him.

However as for her "playing around with Vega"
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/331/06/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/332/06/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/332/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/332/12/
Doesn't look like she's "playing" much to me. She's getting her ass handed to her. As for "I just wanted to see an arrancar's resurrecion for the upcoming battles" yeah... you see with your eyes. And we know she's got an arrogant and stuck up character. She's just covering her ass that she got beat down and trying to save face.
For a real example of someone toying with their opponent, check out the last to Ulqui vs. Ichi chapters.

When she DOES defeat Gio Vega relatively quickly, its aided by the fact that he loses speed in buffing himself up for a strength boost.

I agree with your last line.

[paradise_found]

Everytime those bodyguards/ assassins show up they get raped... they hardly have a reputation for being hardcore. Hell even the kidou corps seem to survive longer than them.

Gio Vega sacrificed speed to bulk up his strength. He proved himself capable of keeping up with her close combat reactions.

the bodyguards get raped because they are nameless, faceless props. on screen, they are nothing but fodder. off screen, however, they are a plot device used to establish a sense of power and mystery for the second division. but i guess they're just good when yoruichi and urahara are involved, huh?

and when has the kidou corp ever been attacked? the movies? that shouldn't count. and even if it did, i'm pretty sure they got ruined in the diamonddust rebellion.

if you assume soi fon is lying about her toying with ggio, then she was losing. she said she was fucking around and killed him before he even got the chance to see it coming. or are her statements less true than those of the other characters?

[Matt]

^Good Point Paradise.

Also that wouldn't stop Vega's True Form from being able to see her move like in his skinnier form, even if he got slower himself. At that point when SoiFon said she was done playing around, he had no chance of winning, and that was it. She proved it.

She toyed around with him, she probably has little experience with Espada's, so she just wanted to test it out, I wouldn't doubt it. Paradise made some good points in this.

[pumpkin13]

Zommari SAID his was the fastest sonido amongst the Espada, when Grimmjow could likely be faster, and Ulquiorra is blitzing shit up atm, and he's only 4th.

Noitra SAID he was the strongest espada but he's only number 5, there's four more, more stronger than him.

It's called arrogance. If it was completely out of character for Soifon to be arrogant then it would give your POV more credence, but Soifon has been shown to be insecure about her power and ability already (against Yoruichi), so its very likely she would try and save face.

point is, unless they can categorically and empirically prove it, not even some of the stuff characters say themselves is important.

It's a literary technique called an "unreliable narrator"

She proved it after she was humiliated by someone that she completely underestimated.

[Levy]

Pumpkin, if she was indeed having a real hard time against a fraccion, why would she in her right mind try to fight someone that is known to be much stronger.

[pumpkin13]

Because she has no idea how much stronger he is.

Because she's in close proximity to him, he's stood up looking like he's going to make a move, she doesn't have a choice. She hasn't chosen to fight him. He's chosen to figher her.

Because she's arrogant and stuck up and feels she needs to prove herself again that she IS as good as she thinks she is by taking down another enemy.

[Matt]

I think you're assuming that's SoiFon's personallity against all people.

We only got to judge her personality from her fighting with Yourichi who just hated for leaving her and never telling her. She's aggorgant against her, not every opponent she faces.

And if she had a hard time fighting against a fraccion that is much weaker then Yami, she shouldn't be a captain. The VC were beating fraccions. Why should a Captain have any trouble beating a fraccion?

No matter how you put it, after she supposely got her ass kicked...and she supposely lied about how she was testing the opponent's stength, she attacked and won with extreme ease.

Aggorgant or not, she proved herself to be on a whole another couple of levels above the weak fraccion.

[pumpkin13]

She was arrogant against Yoruichi, she was arrogant against Vega, she is obnoxious, uncaring and dismissive of her VC, despite him showing genuine worry and concern for her. I think i have her personality pretty well outlined. And if anything it will be her downfall against Barrigan. She thinks she is superior (in Vega's case she WAS ultimately) but Barrigan is a long shot from Vega. She will underestimate her enemy YET again and this time she won't have the ability to put an end to it when things potentially start turning against her.

Yeah sure she handled Vega with ease in the end. After he sacrificed his speed for a power boost. If he'd still had that speed I'd be willing to say she'd have only got one hit on him not two.

[Matt]

Like I mentioned, having great speed doesn't mean Vega is able to see better.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/333/06/

Vega didn't even move when she attacked or notice she moved.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/333/08/

It's not that he couldn't, its because he never saw her move.
Vega even looked confused at the bottom of the page, he never even knew she was behind him until she said something.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/333/09/

I'll say it again, even tho vega gave up his speed does not mean his eyes stopped working.
He didn't see her, because she stopped fooling around.

[pumpkin13]

First source is her arrogance coming through again.

Second source: Yeah because he sacrificed his small and agile, speedy form for power and bulk and strength.

And whats all this with his eyes stopped working nonsense. I said no such thing. He was too busy noticing the butterfly that had appeared on his chest.

She wins yeah, and when she does she pwns, but it greatly helps that Vega (quite stupidly) shifts into a battleform which relies on brute force and strength when he evidently had the advantage in speed and would have been better keeping himself as such.

[smacharia8]

Zommari SAID his was the fastest sonido amongst the Espada, when Grimmjow could likely be faster, and Ulquiorra is blitzing shit up atm, and he's only 4th.

Noitra SAID he was the strongest espada but he's only number 5, there's four more, more stronger than him.Zomari's sonido was fast enough for him to make quasi-clones, nobody else has topped that with flash step alone. Grimmjow and Ulquiorra use a combination of flash step and mobility, which is much more effective than tangible images of yourself.

Noitora said he has the strongest hierro. While the majority would argue he doesn't, I'm deciding to remain optimistic and hoping we see a character we can compare to him. I do find it worth mentioning though, how he withstood a cero double from Nell.



Soifon dealt her blow(s) without Vega even seeing anything. He wasn't "too busy noticing the butterfly that had appeared on his chest" because it appeared AFTER the hit was made, as was the case with Yoruichi.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/333/07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/333/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/333/09/

The reference to Vega's eyes is brought by your claim that his upgrade is the cause for his demise, as there's no way in hell that his muscular body could've made him unable to even see a single one of Soifon's strikes. Refer to Matt's second source revise your response to it.



To sum it all up, Vega's first form doesn't make him faster than Soifon because she was only going easy on him.

[pumpkin13]

I seem to remember arguing with you, perhaps it was Paragon, the exact point that Zommari's sonido was speed and fast enough to create substantial images, yet whoever it was (Paragon I think) could simply not understand this...

Anyway, I shall concede the points on Vega, they ultimately are irrelevant. I just happen to like his character, and despise Soifon, naturally I am going to be a little biased.

Ultimately we haven't seen an upper limit on Ulquiorra's speed yet. He still seems to be owning Ichigo effortlessly despite having upped his game a notch.

Yet I maintain that Soifon's speed against Yoruichi was, if not its best, then certainly towards its peak. While Yoruichi likely wasnt.

So in reply to the thread title: I simply don't see any way Soifon is beating Barrigan.

[Lnrd]

dp Pumpkin

[DamagedScene]

i thought maybe soi fon would win from a battle with barragan because her manly lesbo aura would decrease his manhood to fight.

[VanquishedAngel]

First source is her arrogance coming through again.

Second source: Yeah because he sacrificed his small and agile, speedy form for power and bulk and strength.

And whats all this with his eyes stopped working nonsense. I said no such thing. He was too busy noticing the butterfly that had appeared on his chest.

She wins yeah, and when she does she pwns, but it greatly helps that Vega (quite stupidly) shifts into a battleform which relies on brute force and strength when he evidently had the advantage in speed and would have been better keeping himself as such.

Pumpks.. I have to disagree with your reading of that. I don't see how his resurrection made him incapable of reacting to Soi-fon. He was just outclassed to begin with. She may be a bitch but she is good. Keep in mind that she's Yoroichi's apprentice. That alone should raise her stock. Crap, look what Byakuya did with just one teaching. If Barragan is no VL then Soi-fon should beat him outright. Even if he's VL then depending on her prowess with shunko she may still be able to match him. Just b/c she's annoying doesn't make her incompetent.

[fourwalls]

I don't see why a lot of people hate Soi Fon. I will probably enrage a lot of people here by saying this. I so like her.

But I think that she will lose to Barragan, though she will put up a good fight. I think that with the way she is acting, it looks like she is underestimating him.

Anyway, there were those people who were saying that her shunpo is nowhere near Yoruichi and that she was defeated by Yoruichi in the fight while she was giving her all while Yoru is not. I don't think I believe this assertion. I do think both of them were hesitating. Although Soi Fon is really angry, I don't think that she really desires to kill Yoru at that time, despite what she was saying. She just wanted to appear tough. And at the time when Yoru was activating her shunko, i think that she was already getting through to Soi Fon, so she was already emotionally breaking at this time... I knw, I am asking for it.

[Lnrd]

@VanquishedAngel- Barragan being a VL or not has nothing to do with it. Soifon shouldn't be as strong as the current Ichigo, period. Yet alone stronger. In no way is she suppose to defeat someone that is 2 ranks higher than the person Ichigo is going to struggle to beat with the help of Zangetsu/Hichigo. I just don't see that happening. Kubo may do some fanservice here and there, but he would never do something like that. Did you forget that Soi Fon is a noob captain or something? Do you really expect her to be in the high-tier with the likes of Ukitake and Shunsui? Because the Top 3 espada are obviously going to be, atleast, on their level.


For anyone that says Soi Fon could manage to make Barragan even release- Just where are you guys getting this undue praise for Soi Fon? She loses to a out of shape, no training in a 100 years, and no zanpaktou wielding Yoruichi. No cause for praise there. (And don't even make me go into my Yoruichi is only mid-tier theory.) Then, she whoops a numero, big fucking deal. Captain-class Shinigami have already displayed they whoop numero ass. No cause for any praise there. Also, she pussies out and tells some VCs to go fight Ichigo, while they were obviously out of his league. (Because how everyone was in aww gewgew face when he destroy the stand.) Trying to save her ass from the beatdown Ichigo was going to put on her back in SS arc. Before Ichigo utilized hollow powers, and this recent major boost he got.

[Yayap]

with her abilities she doesn't have to be stronger. (But that doesn't mean I think she will win.)

[Lnrd]

Again, her hax shikai won't even pierce this guy's hierro. What other abilities have you seen from her? Because that's the only thing noteworthy.

[Intense]

^ What do you know about his hierro?

[Matt]

@VanquishedAngel- Barragan being a VL or not has nothing to do with it. Soifon shouldn't be as strong as the current Ichigo, period. Yet alone stronger. In no way is she suppose to defeat someone that is 2 ranks higher than the person Ichigo is going to struggle to beat with the help of Zangetsu/Hichigo. I just don't see that happening. Kubo may do some fanservice here and there, but he would never do something like that. Did you forget that Soi Fon is a noob captain or something? Do you really expect her to be in the high-tier with the likes of Ukitake and Shunsui? Because the Top 3 espada are obviously going to be, atleast, on their level.


For anyone that says Soi Fon could manage to make Barragan even release- Just where are you guys getting this undue praise for Soi Fon? She loses to a out of shape, no training in a 100 years, and no zanpaktou wielding Yoruichi. No cause for praise there. (And don't even make me go into my Yoruichi is only mid-tier theory.) Then, she whoops a numero, big fucking deal. Captain-class Shinigami have already displayed they whoop numero ass. No cause for any praise there. Also, she pussies out and tells some VCs to go fight Ichigo, while they were obviously out of his league. (Because how everyone was in aww gewgew face when he destroy the stand.) Trying to save her ass from the beatdown Ichigo was going to put on her back in SS arc. Before Ichigo utilized hollow powers, and this recent major boost he got.

I loled.

SoiFon can't be as strong as ichigo? I want to know why you think this and what proof do you have of this? Obviously the 1 real fight we seen her in was with yourichi, and if you think that she was going all out with someone she use to worship and adore, then thats funny.

Ichigo always struggles with his opponents, as you should know Ichigo cannot fully control his power, while Soifon, a Captain that knows how to control her full power, even if her full power isnt as strong as ichigo, right now at this level she is most likely to be stronger.

Noob Captain? What gave you that idea? lolll. The only Noob Captain that's in the ranks is hitsugaya, because their is so much proof to say that. But what proof do you have that she is a noob? And not only is she the captain of the 2nd division but she is the head of the Special Forces.

Yourichi is stronger than SoiFon. Period. She lost to someone more superior then her, but like I mentioned, bring that fight up means nothing. SoiFon was fighting out of anger and cause she was hurt, yourichi wasn't even going all out, hell they both weren't.

And you must be mistaken, she sent her VC to chase Renji from escaping with Rukia, she did not send the VC to attack ichigo. Ichigo flash stepped in front of them and kicked their ass.

Then Yourichi stepped in, she had no chance to even go after Ichigo. So she didn't pussy out.

Now through all of this, she probably will lose, but don't call her weak. And like kubo always does, they always hold someone's powers back to save it for a fight their gonna win at. So if she does win, kubo will use her bankai that probably has hax powers and win.

[paradise_found]

@ matt: couldn't agree more with your first points. soi fon's true abilities are as unkown as yama's. and before certain yama worshippers jump down my throat, i'm not saying that the two are equals; just sayin' that we've seen only the tip of the iceberg in regarding either one's abilities. the bottom line should be that she has a fair chance of winning against the old dude (barragan, not ol' yama).

unfortunately, hater logic is just not up to snuff with real logic.

however matt, it's still very much in the air whether she will win or not. kubo has left her for later, syncing with his trend of leaving the badasses for last; but there is too much left to be done, leaving a wide open window of possibilities.

i wouldn't be surprised if hitsugaya, ukitake, soi fon, and shunsui all lose. wouldn't be surprised at all.

[Keiretsu]

I think it's funny that people are referring to Ulq's speed as being off the charts when Stark went from one side of HM to the other in a blink of the eye. But, hey. Ulq is popular.

But that's another topic entirely.

You have to figure that the gloating of one espada needs to be taken with a hint of salt, and thus the hierro of each espada should be stronger than the last. It would make very little sense if the hierro of the 5th espada was stronger than the second yes? If a physical powerhouse like Kenpachi needed to release his full power to cut his hierro, what would be the chance of a speed based shinigami like Soi-Fon piercing the second? (I say powerhouse because that is Kenpachi's strength.. it is his raw strength)

[fourwalls]

I loled.

Obviously the 1 real fight we seen her in was with yourichi, and if you think that she was going all out with someone she use to worship and adore, then thats funny.

Yourichi is stronger than SoiFon. Period. She lost to someone more superior then her, but like I mentioned, bring that fight up means nothing. SoiFon was fighting out of anger and cause she was hurt, yourichi wasn't even going all out, hell they both weren't.



Exactly what I wanted to say. Those sayin otherwise are just plain haters and won't look at it in an objective light.

[Zero-sama]

Like someone else stated here, I don't certainly believe she has to stab someone with her Shikai, maybe is a touch of death, but twice in the same spot. It doesn't matter if is Hierro or other types of skin.

[pumpkin13]

@VanquishedAngel- Barragan being a VL or not has nothing to do with it. Soifon shouldn't be as strong as the current Ichigo, period. Yet alone stronger. In no way is she suppose to defeat someone that is 2 ranks higher than the person Ichigo is going to struggle to beat with the help of Zangetsu/Hichigo. I just don't see that happening. Kubo may do some fanservice here and there, but he would never do something like that. Did you forget that Soi Fon is a noob captain or something? Do you really expect her to be in the high-tier with the likes of Ukitake and Shunsui? Because the Top 3 espada are obviously going to be, atleast, on their level.


For anyone that says Soi Fon could manage to make Barragan even release- Just where are you guys getting this undue praise for Soi Fon? She loses to a out of shape, no training in a 100 years, and no zanpaktou wielding Yoruichi. No cause for praise there. (And don't even make me go into my Yoruichi is only mid-tier theory.) Then, she whoops a numero, big fucking deal. Captain-class Shinigami have already displayed they whoop numero ass. No cause for any praise there. Also, she pussies out and tells some VCs to go fight Ichigo, while they were obviously out of his league. (Because how everyone was in aww gewgew face when he destroy the stand.) Trying to save her ass from the beatdown Ichigo was going to put on her back in SS arc. Before Ichigo utilized hollow powers, and this recent major boost he got.

NICE. I think I came.

I loled.

SoiFon can't be as strong as ichigo? I want to know why you think this and what proof do you have of this(a)? Obviously the 1 real fight we seen her in was with yourichi, and if you think that she was going all out with someone she use to worship and adore(b), then thats funny(c).

Ichigo always struggles with his opponents, as you should know Ichigo cannot fully control his power, while Soifon, a Captain that knows how to control her full power(d), even if her full power isnt as strong as ichigo, right now at this level she is most likely to be stronger.

Noob Captain? What gave you that idea?(e) lolll. The only Noob Captain that's in the ranks is hitsugaya, because their is so much proof to say that. But what proof do you have that she is a noob? And not only is she the captain of the 2nd division but she is the head of the Special Forces.(f)

Yourichi is stronger than SoiFon. Period. She lost to someone more superior then her, but like I mentioned, bring that fight up means nothing. SoiFon was fighting out of anger and cause she was hurt, yourichi wasn't even going all out, hell they both weren't.(g)

And you must be mistaken, she sent her VC to chase Renji from escaping with Rukia, she did not send the VC to attack ichigo. Ichigo flash stepped in front of them and kicked their ass.(h)

Then Yourichi stepped in, she had no chance to even go after Ichigo. So she didn't pussy out.

Now through all of this, she probably will lose, but don't call her weak. And like kubo always does, they always hold someone's powers back to save it for a fight their gonna win at. So if she does win, kubo will use her bankai that probably has hax powers and win.

I think it's funny that people are referring to Ulq's speed as being off the charts when Stark went from one side of HM to the other in a blink of the eye(i). But, hey. Ulq is popular.

But that's another topic entirely.

You have to figure that the gloating of one espada needs to be taken with a hint of salt, and thus the hierro of each espada should be stronger than the last. It would make very little sense if the hierro of the 5th espada was stronger than the second yes? If a physical powerhouse like Kenpachi needed to release his full power to cut his hierro, what would be the chance of a speed based shinigami like Soi-Fon piercing the second? (I say powerhouse because that is Kenpachi's strength.. it is his raw strength)(j)

(a) Ichigo's the main character. Ichigo, time and time again throughout the SS arc, has been set aside as having a BIG reiatsu (Soifon's jealous... LOL if you pick up on that). Ichigo, in bankai can't cut (at least not easily or to any real extent) through Ulquiorra's unreleased hierro. Bankai generally speaking has 5-10x power over shikai, so even if Soifon is, as you absurdly claim, more powerful than Ichigo, she could not, in shikai, be more powerful than him in bankai. So her shikai will not pierce Barrigan's hierro.

(b) Worship and adoration turns oh so easily to hate and angar (as we've seen) when one is left alone by their idol. She hated Yoruichi and she wanted to make her suffer for what she did to her, it was only with the final punch that Yoruichi held back on and showed her compassion that Soifon's resolution to kill was broken.

(c) We're fucking comedians man, check that shit.

(d) I'm actually going to quote you here...
I want to know why you think this and what proof do you have of this?
Soifon can't control shunkou. So she's obviously hasn't mastered her powers. She even said that her shikai has changed over the past amount of time since she last saw Yoruichi, which again suggests a work very much in progress, not full mastery.

(e) She can only be 100 years as a captain maximum, which, to the likes of Shunsui, Ukitake and Unohana, makes her a complete noob.

(f) OMG THE SPECIAL FORCES! What are you trying to imply by bringing that up? They have freaking OMAEDA as their captain of patrol. That says it all to me. Mayuri is not only 12th Division captain but captain of the SCIENCE DIVISION TOO! oh wow... it means nothing.

(g) Have already tackled that with (b). She was doing her damndest to make Yoruichi suffer. And she failed miserably.

(h) She DID however order Omaeda to go and stop Ukitake and Shunsui from destroying the Soukyouku. She OBVIOUSLY knows of their level of power, so that was just pure unadulturated cowardice.

(i) mmmm yeah, nobody really mentions it because even before we knew he was the Primera, we knew he was above Ulquiorra so it went without saying that he was uber. Also we don't actually know how far he went, it could have been 500 meters it could have been a mile, it could have been ten miles. People are making a hoo-ha about Ulqui's speed cus he's just upped his game and demonstrated sexy levels of speed against Ichigo. If anything this aids your Stark point because it pushes Stark's abilities up even further.

(j) Right on brother.

EDIT:

With regards to Zero: His heirro/ her touch ability is pointless, in her shikai at least, she shouldn't be able to touch him.

[paradise_found]

I think it's funny that people are referring to Ulq's speed as being off the charts when Stark went from one side of HM to the other in a blink of the eye. But, hey. Ulq is popular.

But that's another topic entirely.

You have to figure that the gloating of one espada needs to be taken with a hint of salt, and thus the hierro of each espada should be stronger than the last. It would make very little sense if the hierro of the 5th espada was stronger than the second yes? If a physical powerhouse like Kenpachi needed to release his full power to cut his hierro, what would be the chance of a speed based shinigami like Soi-Fon piercing the second? (I say powerhouse because that is Kenpachi's strength.. it is his raw strength)

makes sense. however, it is possible that nnoitra had the strongest hierro in much the same manner as zommari having the fastest sonido. sure we can chalk nnoitra's claims up to empty bragging, but from what we saw of zommari's character, he's not really the type to cast hollow boasts about his abilities.

stark could have been waiting in the wings much the way nnoitra was. certainly with all the commotion, aizen would have sent his number one to retrieve orihime from a much closer distance than "halfway across [las noches]"

[Keiretsu]

^
I look at it like this, just as not every captain reveals their potential to people around them, I'd guess that the Espada are like that as well. Zommari might have said that in full confidence without knowing the upper limits of Stark's speed. Likewise, I can't imagine Noi conversing much with his fellow members, so to him his competition were the most immediate members of the Espada. (Ulq for example) And amongst those, he might've had the strongest hierro. However, I still stand by my point of the tremendous leaps that each number makes in the rankings of the Espada. And I seriously doubt that the 5th would've had the strongest, perhaps within one or two ranks, he might've. But working within the upper three? Doubtful.

[pumpkin13]

I was just about to say that Keiretsu. We've seen from Ulquiorra that the (and we do now suppose they ARE VLs) VL arrancar suppress their abilities to lower forms when walking around everyday las noches, so as far as Zommari was concerned his WAS the fastest, becuase he hadnt seen anybody any faster. But that was because the top four were suppressing their abilities.

[paradise_found]

^ but the espada have been shown to exhibit abilities that surpass those of their superiors. for example, i would safely assume that yammi is physically stronger than szayel-aporro. the octava remains number eight based on the myriad of abilities that his resurrecion seems to possess.

but then again, we've seen nothing but tattoos when talking about the top three espada. while i have no doubt that they are stronger than those below them, it is quite feasible to think that the upper three or four have far more well rounded abilities than those below them, thus making them better killers.

nnoitra possessed harder skin than the rest, but his speed was lacking. he clumsily swung his blades around as he attempted to slice up kenpachi. ulquiorra was cut, even if barely, by ichigo's bankai whereas nnoitra wasn't. i would still say that in a fight, ulquiorra would win against the quinta. he's exhibited a greater level of not one attribute, but all of them.

[pumpkin13]

You forget that Ichigo had just had a massively epic fight with Grimmjow immediately prior to coming into contact with Noitra, and hadn't had a chance for Orihime to heal him. As such of course he wasn't going to be able to cut through Noitra's heirro in bankai. Even at full strength as he is now he can barely cut through Ulquiorra's and thats WITH a power upgrade (evident from him being able to take Ulquiorra's cero without his vaizard mask).

[paradise_found]

every damn day with the "ichigo just got in a fight and orihime hadn't healed him yet" argument. :P

you forget that even a fully healed, battle-ready kenpachi couldn't cut nnoitra at first; he had to really give his swing some juice to cut the dude. i doubt ichigo's quick cut on ulquiorra had as much force in it as the attack kenpachi finally used to draw blood on nnoitra.

[pumpkin13]

Actually Zaraki didn't neet to power up against Noitra, he merely had to get used to his hierro, he said it himself.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/308/14/

Oh and also that Zaraki's blade is as blunt as an iron bar. Hence why he couldnt cut him from the get go.

[Lnrd]

NICE. I think I came.





(a) Ichigo's the main character. Ichigo, time and time again throughout the SS arc, has been set aside as having a BIG reiatsu (Soifon's jealous... LOL if you pick up on that). Ichigo, in bankai can't cut (at least not easily or to any real extent) through Ulquiorra's unreleased hierro. Bankai generally speaking has 5-10x power over shikai, so even if Soifon is, as you absurdly claim, more powerful than Ichigo, she could not, in shikai, be more powerful than him in bankai. So her shikai will not pierce Barrigan's hierro.

(b) Worship and adoration turns oh so easily to hate and angar (as we've seen) when one is left alone by their idol. She hated Yoruichi and she wanted to make her suffer for what she did to her, it was only with the final punch that Yoruichi held back on and showed her compassion that Soifon's resolution to kill was broken.

(c) We're fucking comedians man, check that shit.

(d) I'm actually going to quote you here...

Soifon can't control shunkou. So she's obviously hasn't mastered her powers. She even said that her shikai has changed over the past amount of time since she last saw Yoruichi, which again suggests a work very much in progress, not full mastery.

(e) She can only be 100 years as a captain maximum, which, to the likes of Shunsui, Ukitake and Unohana, makes her a complete noob.

(f) OMG THE SPECIAL FORCES! What are you trying to imply by bringing that up? They have freaking OMAEDA as their captain of patrol. That says it all to me. Mayuri is not only 12th Division captain but captain of the SCIENCE DIVISION TOO! oh wow... it means nothing.

(g) Have already tackled that with (b). She was doing her damndest to make Yoruichi suffer. And she failed miserably.

(h) She DID however order Omaeda to go and stop Ukitake and Shunsui from destroying the Soukyouku. She OBVIOUSLY knows of their level of power, so that was just pure unadulturated cowardice.

(i) mmmm yeah, nobody really mentions it because even before we knew he was the Primera, we knew he was above Ulquiorra so it went without saying that he was uber. Also we don't actually know how far he went, it could have been 500 meters it could have been a mile, it could have been ten miles. People are making a hoo-ha about Ulqui's speed cus he's just upped his game and demonstrated sexy levels of speed against Ichigo. If anything this aids your Stark point because it pushes Stark's abilities up even further.

(j) Right on brother.

EDIT:

With regards to Zero: His heirro/ her touch ability is pointless, in her shikai at least, she shouldn't be able to touch him.
QF fucking T, Pumpkin.

@Matt- I understand that you might like Soi Fon as a character, but get some damn common sense. Soi Fon being on Uki/Shunsui level, ha:lol: That would mean that Yoru will be on Ukitake/Shunsui's level which is very idiotic still imo. Asking dumb ass questions like, "how is she a noob captain." Do you fucking read BLEACH, Damn. Compared to the Big 4 all the captains we've seen are noobs. When Soi Fon becomes as strong as Ukitake/Shunsui the universe is might implode on the idiocy that Kubo has made.

EDIT: I'm going to try and reserve myself from this thread because debating with blind fanboys is taxing.

[paradise_found]

@ lnrd: LOOOOOL.

while i am a huge fanboy of soi fon, i think everything you said is pretty spot on. i'm just enjoying the role of devil's advocate here; i think that both soi fon and hitsugaya will most likely lose to their respective opponents. although that's gonna be one hell of a ball-breaker when espadas 2 & 3 win and shunsui beats stark.

when you consider this from a plot standpoint, the battle kinda hinges on whether soi wins or loses. since we all KNOW hitsugaya's gonna lose, it would be silly if the the primera got beat, but the segundo and tercera won their initial fights. i think if soi loses, shunsui will lose and then the vizards/urahara&yoruichi/isshin will step in.

and don't get too drained, lnrd. the name of the thread alone should have clued everyone in on the fact that this was gonna be more of an argument than a debate; of course the one-sidedness has been extremely prevalent.

[pumpkin13]

Soifon being at Shunsui's level would mean Yoruichi would have to be like on Yama's freakin level lol. As cypruss hill quite aptly put it: INSANE IN THE BRAIN.

[paradise_found]

Soifon being at Shunsui's level would mean Yoruichi would have to be like on Yama's freakin level lol. As cypruss hill quite aptly put it: INSANE IN THE BRAIN.

pffft. this dude said cypress hill.

regardless of painfully out-dated hip-hop references, pumpkin's got a point. i think matt was more or less trying to give soi fon more credit than everyone else seems to want to. unfortunately, he gave her way too much. from what we've seen out of her thus far, she's most likely a solid mid-tier captain.

leave it to kubo to have had her train her skinny ass off for a couple months, though. (aka also known as "some bullshit") it'd be funny though.

[manje10]

I think Kubo would even realise when creating his manga how lame it would be Soi-fon 2 hit killing the 2nd Espada...

So i dont see her Shikai having affect and it will be explained why (Heirro most likely)

[Matt]

NICE. I think I came.





(a) Ichigo's the main character. Ichigo, time and time again throughout the SS arc, has been set aside as having a BIG reiatsu (Soifon's jealous... LOL if you pick up on that). Ichigo, in bankai can't cut (at least not easily or to any real extent) through Ulquiorra's unreleased hierro. Bankai generally speaking has 5-10x power over shikai, so even if Soifon is, as you absurdly claim, more powerful than Ichigo, she could not, in shikai, be more powerful than him in bankai. So her shikai will not pierce Barrigan's hierro.

(b) Worship and adoration turns oh so easily to hate and angar (as we've seen) when one is left alone by their idol. She hated Yoruichi and she wanted to make her suffer for what she did to her, it was only with the final punch that Yoruichi held back on and showed her compassion that Soifon's resolution to kill was broken.

(c) We're fucking comedians man, check that shit.

(d) I'm actually going to quote you here...

Soifon can't control shunkou. So she's obviously hasn't mastered her powers. She even said that her shikai has changed over the past amount of time since she last saw Yoruichi, which again suggests a work very much in progress, not full mastery.

(e) She can only be 100 years as a captain maximum, which, to the likes of Shunsui, Ukitake and Unohana, makes her a complete noob.

(f) OMG THE SPECIAL FORCES! What are you trying to imply by bringing that up? They have freaking OMAEDA as their captain of patrol. That says it all to me. Mayuri is not only 12th Division captain but captain of the SCIENCE DIVISION TOO! oh wow... it means nothing.

(g) Have already tackled that with (b). She was doing her damndest to make Yoruichi suffer. And she failed miserably.

(h) She DID however order Omaeda to go and stop Ukitake and Shunsui from destroying the Soukyouku. She OBVIOUSLY knows of their level of power, so that was just pure unadulturated cowardice.

(i) mmmm yeah, nobody really mentions it because even before we knew he was the Primera, we knew he was above Ulquiorra so it went without saying that he was uber. Also we don't actually know how far he went, it could have been 500 meters it could have been a mile, it could have been ten miles. People are making a hoo-ha about Ulqui's speed cus he's just upped his game and demonstrated sexy levels of speed against Ichigo. If anything this aids your Stark point because it pushes Stark's abilities up even further.

(j) Right on brother.

EDIT:

With regards to Zero: His heirro/ her touch ability is pointless, in her shikai at least, she shouldn't be able to touch him.

a) I believe that SoiFon doesn't need to actually pierce through the skin to make her affect kick in. But thats besides the point, I'm not counting on her shikai to win the battle if she wins the battle. Plus as you must know, having a bigger reiastu does not make your stronger, SoiFon has a few more better qualities over him being a captain and all, even if she was only a captain for at least 100 years.

b) Even if it was her full extent of her power at shikai, we're only able to compare to fighting an ex captain that has been a captain for at least 200 years, which we don't even know how powerful yourichi is except she has a better shunko and she's considered the Goddess of Flash.

c) Um, cool :D

d) Well...Considering she wasn't a captain, actually we don't know what her current seat was at that time. We really don't know how long it actually took it for her to master it. But it had to be before she obtained bankai, which she should have mastered as well.

e) Obviously when you compare her to the top 4, she's a Noob Captain. Obviously 2000 years over 100, so true. Just because she's only been a captain for at least 100 years does not make her weak in general. She's not a hitsugaya, not even close.

f) I was just implying that she has other means of abilities as a trained assassin, I mean it helps that she's the head of something else, just like it helps mayuri that he is in the science division (a whole lot). If he wasn't a scientist, or had the means to experiment so much, he would not have been able to replace all his organs in another body within an hour, create poisons and antidotes, make his body look like it is, to regenerate his body, and to create a new poision for his own bankai that he is always unaffected by.

h) Ok good point, but why would that count as cowardness? Unohana didn't attack them either, is she a coward? Actually byakuya was there too, is he a coward? Wait Yama didn't try to stop the shield either? I know he went afterwards to fight shunsui and ukitake, but at that moment, no one went. So what if SoiFon told her VC to stop it. It's irrelevant.

Now all I'm arguing at this point is that SoiFon is strong, probably not strong enough to defeat #2, but Barragan is going to at least release against her. And it could go either way, probably barragan will win, but I wouldn't be surprised if she loses. Even if she does Komamura Yama and Ukitake are still lerking around.


QF fucking T, Pumpkin.

@Matt- I understand that you might like Soi Fon as a character, but get some damn common sense. Soi Fon being on Uki/Shunsui level, ha:lol: That would mean that Yoru will be on Ukitake/Shunsui's level which is very idiotic still imo. Asking dumb ass questions like, "how is she a noob captain." Do you fucking read BLEACH, Damn. Compared to the Big 4 all the captains we've seen are noobs. When Soi Fon becomes as strong as Ukitake/Shunsui the universe is might implode on the idiocy that Kubo has made.

EDIT: I'm going to try and reserve myself from this thread because debating with blind fanboys is taxing.

Wow I loled again.

Who ever said that she was on that level, not me? not no one here (maybe).

100 Dollars LNRD comes back?

If your going to argue at least bring some proof or something, your just babbling nonsense. At least Pumpkin comes here, explains his stuff, and has proof behind him.

Even tho sometimes I'm not in agreement with pumpkin, he always comes with reinforcement.

You forget that Ichigo had just had a massively epic fight with Grimmjow immediately prior to coming into contact with Noitra, and hadn't had a chance for Orihime to heal him. As such of course he wasn't going to be able to cut through Noitra's heirro in bankai. Even at full strength as he is now he can barely cut through Ulquiorra's and thats WITH a power upgrade (evident from him being able to take Ulquiorra's cero without his vaizard mask).

Actually let me correct you, Inoue was healing ichigo throughout the entire battle with nnorita and zaraki.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/310/01/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/310/06/ (Ichigo says Shun Shun Rikka, thats her healing twins)
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/310/07/ (And 1 more for the hell of it, she uses her defensive one)

Throughout the battle I thought she was just protecting him with the shield, but it was her healing twins.

So yea Ichigo was good to go to fighting ulq.

[UnadvisedGoose]

^On that last point, you're thinking of two different situations. Pumpkin is saying that Ichigo had just been beat to hell fighting GJ, and was still tired and worn down when he tired to cut Noi. Pumpkin was acknowledging the fact that Ichigo had been healed by Orihime before he fought Ulq.

Oh and also, I'm sorry this really just bothered me. But I have to point out that cowardness is not a word. The word you're looking for would be cowardice. Sorry! I'm sometimes a grammar freak. :wacko:

[pumpkin13]

Actually let me correct you, Inoue was healing ichigo throughout the entire battle with nnorita and zaraki.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/310/01/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/310/06/ (Ichigo says Shun Shun Rikka, thats her healing twins)
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/310/07/ (And 1 more for the hell of it, she uses her defensive one)

Throughout the battle I thought she was just protecting him with the shield, but it was her healing twins.

So yea Ichigo was good to go to fighting ulq.

You are not correcting me.

My point was that between fighting Grimmjow and Noitra, Ichigo had not been healed. And his battle against Grimmjow, I'm sure you'll agree, was EPIC. So in his extensively weakened state, of course there was no way he was going have any success against Noitra.

Against Ulquiorra, as Goose says (I can always trust ya Goose ^_^... pitty you die in Top Gun... ah well...) i acknowledged he had been healed, and in his fully healed state, he can ONLY just scratch Ulquiorra's unreleased form, admittedly without his mask...

I've kinda forgotten what the original point of the line of argument was... but hey...

Lol I may have to put that in my sig.. Pumpkin ALWAYS brings reinforcements.

[Keiretsu]

If Soi Fon doesn't need to pierce the skin to trigger a mark, then theoretically then if she merely scratched the clothing that would then be sufficient. I don't think it works that way.

Beyond that, my thoughts have been echoed nicely by other great posters.

[Matt]

^On that last point, you're thinking of two different situations. Pumpkin is saying that Ichigo had just been beat to hell fighting GJ, and was still tired and worn down when he tired to cut Noi. Pumpkin was acknowledging the fact that Ichigo had been healed by Orihime before he fought Ulq.

Oh and also, I'm sorry this really just bothered me. But I have to point out that cowardness is not a word. The word you're looking for would be cowardice. Sorry! I'm sometimes a grammar freak. :wacko:

Well...my major in college is mathematics :D

Haha, so I so fail at grammer, not because I'm terrible at writing, I actually enjoy writing, but on the internet, I start to make up words and abbreviations and all that computer lingo lol.

On the internet, cowardness is a word

SO THERE!

You are not correcting me.

My point was that between fighting Grimmjow and Noitra, Ichigo had not been healed. And his battle against Grimmjow, I'm sure you'll agree, was EPIC. So in his extensively weakened state, of course there was no way he was going have any success against Noitra.

Against Ulquiorra, as Goose says (I can always trust ya Goose ^_^... pitty you die in Top Gun... ah well...) i acknowledged he had been healed, and in his fully healed state, he can ONLY just scratch Ulquiorra's unreleased form, admittedly without his mask...

I've kinda forgotten what the original point of the line of argument was... but hey...

Lol I may have to put that in my sig.. Pumpkin ALWAYS brings reinforcements.

Oh...then my bad

/cries

Its true though, I mean someone could say "Grimmjow could beat stark easily"

and you'll come back with a paragraphs and paragraphs...and paragraphs lolll proving that their wrong and you're right.

[pumpkin13]

haha, yeah but there's no way in hell Grimmjow could beat Stark... Ichigo Bankai (as he is now against Ulquiorra) vs. Noitra, now that's an interesting one... alternatively, if you think that's too easy, then Ichigo if he was healed in between fighting Grimm and Noitra, THEN taking on Noitra at full health and strength and speed...

[Matt]

Well Ichigo should win, he has speed over Nnorita.

Nnorita doesn't seem to be as fast as grimmjow.

But then again, I'd think ichigo would have a hard time cutting nnorita, zaraki did at first but then he had to get use to it, by if I remember he sharpened his reiastu around the blade or something, IDK. But Ichigo wouldn't have known to do that unless zangetsu helped him.

And yea this is so off topic :X

[pumpkin13]

Well, to summarise:

Soifon is a mid tier (at best, and likely lower mid tier) captain with speed, an unstable shunkou and some haxness.

Barrigan is likely a VL, the second Espada so two ranks above Ulquiorra who is running rings around Ichigo.

Basically, even with shunkou and her bankai whatever that may be, I think she's going to have a hard time. She probably won't get KOd though, Yoruichi will step in and save her ass.

[Matt]

I say she's about that rank. But her bankai is going to help her in some way.

Well her shunko is good, at the level it is now.

Yourichi's Shunko is much stronger, but that's very unstable.

I don't remember SoiFon's Shunko being unstable, just not as strong as yourichi's.

She should at least make barragan release.

I don't think yourichi won't be in the picture soon.

Komumara, Yama, or probably ukitake will step in, basically whoever is not fighting for hitsugaya after he gets pwned by halibel.

[pumpkin13]

Yoruichi did not introduce it to Soifon because it was an unstable and dangerous technique, Yoruichi has mastered it more although even her level of skill can potentially damage herself. Soifon has not mastered it to the same level of Yoruichi hence its more likely to damage her, and as such is unstable.

[smacharia8]

^ I still don't see where you get the impression they can damage themselves. Seems hard to limit the power unleashed, especially when trying not to injure your opponent the lightest. Simply put it's dangerous because of the amount of destruction caused to the surroundings, not because it poses a threat to the user.

Actually Zaraki didn't neet to power up against Noitra, he merely had to get used to his hierro, he said it himself.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/308/14/

Oh and also that Zaraki's blade is as blunt as an iron bar. Hence why he couldnt cut him from the get go.Zaraki needed to swing harder than usual to cut Noitora's hierro; I'd rank his current swings above Ichigo's.