Obama Presidency

[TW501]

Discuss the upcoming Obama Administration. What will happen? What will his priorities be? What do you think his overall administration will look like? How will he handle problems? What actions will he take? What actions do you think he should take?

[ismey]

well hes already started sorting out the guantanamo base problem and i heard as well that he also starting to mend foreign relations particlarly middle east ones....at least thats what i heard in a newspaper.....hes also trying to sort some of the shit bush left behind when he added new laws/ rules/policy...etc.......

as president i think he should concentrate on american citzens and their needs first.....after that i think he should then settle stuff on climate change and foriegn relations....particularly palestine and israel....he should take a tougher stance on israel and their disregard for UN resoloutions... IMO though i doubt he will.

[BalrogLord]

hes only been president for not even a week and youre trying to anticipate what hes going to be doing for 4 years? i think this obama hysteria is getting a little out of hand. He still hasnt put any food on the plate, he's just promised to buy a steak dinner, thats all.

[Cursed]

So far every decision he has made has been completely liberally based with bipartisanship at all.

[TW501]

hes only been president for not even a week and youre trying to anticipate what hes going to be doing for 4 years? i think this obama hysteria is getting a little out of hand. He still hasnt put any food on the plate, he's just promised to buy a steak dinner, thats all.

The fact that it was Obama wasn't the reason why I made this thread, I made it because we are getting a new president and there is a lot to discuss. I would have made this same thread if McCain had won. As the new president, he will be doing a lot of new things, and I felt that we should discuss what we think he will do/what he should do.

[jodocast]

^Agreed.

What we should really see from Obama right now is crap that can help turn this recession around before it gets any worse,like funding construction projects and research on green energy which would provide jobs for the people,while also trying to find ways to help the people struggling with Forclosure and the like.
I would say Obama should Nationalize the banking sector altogether instead of using tax-payer money to bail them out,but thats a last-ditch option right now seeing as doing that would be commiting political sucicide in this country.

Right now Obama has done what he said he would do which gives me hope that he might be able to help the people,but im still kinda worried that this stimulus package he's planned up might fail as bad as the bush stimulus package.

as president i think he should concentrate on american citzens and their needs first.....after that i think he should then settle stuff on climate change and foriegn relations....particularly palestine and israel....he should take a tougher stance on israel and their disregard for UN resoloutions... IMO though i doubt he will.

Agreed he should spend most of his time helping the common U.S citizen and spend the rest of it on trying to regain the U.S reputation which was completely destroyed by Bush's stupidity.
I also agree with you on taking a harder aproach to Israel but it seems that Obama wont go real hard on them at this moment,But that could change soon seeing as how Israel did break international law by using white posperous on helpless civilians and all the other Laws they broke while fighting a pointless war with Hamas which could've been avioded if they would've tried to nogotiate with them and open the border crossings.

[1 up and 2 down]

I think Obama should do whatever it takes to keep the American people prosperous and safe. And if that means not being popular in the world that is fine by me. And since when should the opinion of the world become more important than the needs of the American people. That is why I think shutting down Guantanamo Bay without a plan for the inmates is just stupid. Many of home countries for these suspected terrorists don't want them back and you can't exactly put Gitmo inmates with the rest of the general prison population in the States because they will most likely get beat up or killed very quickly.

[TW501]

I read somewhere that at least some of the prisoners are being transferred to Britain. Also, it's not even a matter of international condemnation, it's a matter of basic ethics. People can be arrested and put there for their entire lives without being charged or even informed of what they are accused of. Mistreatment, torture, and degradation is commonplace, and there were 350 suicide attempts in just one year there. Several who were imprisoned and tortured there were later found innocent. That prison trampled all over human rights, and Obama was completely justified in closing it, international pressure or not.

[jodocast]

Closing guantanumo bay was an easy thing to decide really if you look at what happens there,torture for example,is one of the most horrific things they had going on.Hell torture does'nt work half the time anyways if you look at records,We learned a crapload more from the germans back in WW2 when all we did was play chess and have pleasent chats with them for example.

[VanquishedAngel]

Guantanamo Bay was a political and practical debacle.

[Exploits]

Guantanamo Bay was a political and practical debacle.

Yep, just makes him look really moral to the rest of the world. Otherwise, it does nothing for the American people. All it was, was his first, proper step into fixing America's foreign image to the rest of the planet.

[jodocast]

^^
agreed,that part slipped past my mind lol.

That was part of the reason for closing the prison and all the other over sea C.I.A prisons,it should provide a jumpstart to salavgeing U.S rep abroad and also giving Obama a quick win-win senario.

[BalrogLord]

But that could change soon seeing as how Israel did break international law by using white posperous on helpless civilians and all the other Laws they broke while fighting a pointless war with Hamas which could've been avioded if they would've tried to nogotiate with them and open the border crossings.

Considering how old this blood feud is, and what both parties interests are, not gona happen. This is a war, shit happens. My only grievance is that this war wont achieve anything, israel has been in there twice before and accomplished nothing. They better finish the job this time.

[Oh1222]

Considering how old this blood feud is, and what both parties interests are, not gona happen. This is a war, shit happens. My only grievance is that this war wont achieve anything, israel has been in there twice before and accomplished nothing. They better finish the job this time.

Yup I agree, Israel needs to eliminate every Palestinian militant, terrorist, men, women and children too. The job must be finished here. This is the only way.

[TW501]

Okay, before this turns into another Gaza argument, I think we should turn our attention back to Obama. You can discuss Gaza in the Gaza thread.

[octocheese]

I heard the other day that Obama approved an air strike along the Pakistan/Afghanistan boarder inside Pakastani territory. I don't know details but I was really hopping we had seen the last of things like that with the Bush administration. But as the news anchors pointed out Obama is in the "hot seat" now making the tough decisions and probably getting more intel as president than he did before. Since I have more confidence in him making informed decisions than Bush I'll give him the benefit of a doubt. For now.

[ш『††Shinigami††』ш]

Obama becoming president has changed the entire United States. Being the first African-American president, he has earned our respect :bigsmile:

[TW501]

I heard the other day that Obama approved an air strike along the Pakistan/Afghanistan boarder inside Pakastani territory. I don't know details but I was really hopping we had seen the last of things like that with the Bush administration. But as the news anchors pointed out Obama is in the "hot seat" now making the tough decisions and probably getting more intel as president than he did before. Since I have more confidence in him making informed decisions than Bush I'll give him the benefit of a doubt. For now.

Here is the article regarding that.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090125/ap_on_re_as/as_afghanistan

It seems that the strike was a military operation rather than a direct order from obama. Still, it's certainly interesting to speculate on how he will handle these types of issues. He did say that he would be willing to strike into Pakistan if there was intelligence pointing to the location of top al-qaeda leaders.

[mvlbrotherg]

Obama becoming president has changed the entire United States. Being the first African-American president, he has earned our respect :bigsmile:

I'm not pissing at you or anything but what you should look out for is what he does not what he is. That's what should contribute towards Obama gaining the respect from the people. I mean if you look at it another way if Hilary was voted president would you say the same thing for being the 1st female president??

[Joji]

ni**as gettin shot

[crankytaz]

Well so far I believe that Obama is making a good image for himself. So far he has kept his word on the things that he was going to try to fix for the American people. He got the votes for the simulates plan for the people, that was probably no small feat to get that approved. So far it seems like the market is going up now, so there for it seems to be working now, but long-term, we will have to see.

[BalrogLord]

interesting article
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/02/10/iran-us.html?ref=rss

i never believed this would ever happen.

[octocheese]

Yeah, that's pretty exciting. We'll have to wait and see how they go.
Anyone have thoughts on Obama's recent "town meetings?" I haven't decidided if they're a good thing or not. It's kind of informal and I feel like we're back on the campaign trail.

[Belial]

interesting article
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/02/10/iran-us.html?ref=rss

i never believed this would ever happen.

I can predict the end result:

U.S.:we'll throw ya a fuckton of money money to stop making nukes

Iran: No problem buddy

*4 years later*

Iran : we have nukes now btw, and thanks for helping out with funds to get us here.

[Aidan]

ah, iran.
I like how they put that, "US-backed Shah" More like US-installed.

[BalrogLord]

ah, iran.
I like how they put that, "US-backed Shah" More like US-installed.

doesnt take much to read in between the lines.

[Joji]

Obamanomics suck! This country is no different than in the past 8 years, what a joke of an administration, they can't even appoint competent people to their own Cabinet...

[TW501]

His economic plan hasn't even gone into effect yet. I don't see how you can judge it so early. Granted, I have some doubts about the stimulus plan, but overall I think he has a sound economic plan.

[ms07gtr]

His economic plan hasn't even gone into effect yet. I don't see how you can judge it so early. Granted, I have some doubts about the stimulus plan, but overall I think he has a sound economic plan.

Seriously? Have you Read it? I have its not going to do jack but dig an even bigger hole! Econ 101 failure! This is a free market system with some government regulation. The best way to get everything back on track and people working again is to lower corporate tax rates encouraging growth and in doing so creating jobs across the board not in years but weeks.

Contents of this "stimulus" or as I like to call it a giant wad of pork barrel spending. Put in SP so I dont take up an entire page in a single post.

$44 million for construction, repair and improvements at US Department of Agriculture facilities
$209 million for work on deferred maintenance at Agricultural Research Service facilities
$245 million for maintaining and modernizing the IT system of the Farm Service Agency
$175 million to buy and restore floodplain easements for flood prevention
$50 million for "Watershed Rehabilitation"
$1.1 billion for rural community facilities direct loans
$2 billion for rural business and industry guaranteed loans
$2.7 billion for rural water and waste disposal direct loans
$22.1 billion for rural housing insurance fund loans
$2.8 billion for loans to spur rural broadband
$150 million for emergency food assistance
$50 million for regional economic development commissions
$1 billion for "Periodic Censuses and Programs"
$350 million for State Broadband Data and Development Grants
$1.8 billion for Rural Broadband Deployment Grants
$1 billion for Rural Wireless Deployment Grants
$650 million for Digital-to-Analog Converter Box Program
$100 million for "Scientific and Technical Research and Services" at the National Institute of Standards And Technology
$30 million for necessary expenses of the "Hollings Manufacturing Extension Partnership"
$300 million for a competitive construction grant program for research science buildings
$400 million for "habitat restoration and mitigation activities" at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
$600 million for "accelerating satellite development and acquisition"
$140 million for "climate data modeling"
$3 billion for state and local law enforcement grants
$1 billion for "Community Oriented Policing Services"
$250 million for "accelerating the development of the tier 1 set of Earth science climate research missions recommended by the National Academies Decadal Survey."
$50 million for repairs to NASA facilities from storm damage
$300 million for "Major Research Instrumentation program" (science)
$200 million for "academic research facilities modernization"
$100 million for "Education and Human Resources"
$400 million for "Major Research Equipment and Facilities Construction"
$4.5 billion to make military facilities more energy efficient
$1.5 billion for Army Operation and Maintenance fund
$624 million for Navy Operation and Maintenance
$128 million for Marine Corps Operation and Maintenance
$1.23 billion for Air Force Operation and Maintenance
$454 million to "Defense Health Program"
$110 million for Army Reserve Operation and Maintenance
$62 million for Navy Reserve Operation and Maintenance
$45 million for Marine Corps Reserve Operation and Maintenance
$14 million for Air Force Reserve Operation and Maintenance
$302 million for National Guard Operation and Maintenance
$29 million for Air National Guard Operation and Maintenance
$350 million for military energy research and development programs
$2 billion for Army Corps of Engineers "Construction"
$250 million for "Mississippi River and Tributaries"
$2.2 billion for Army Corps "Operation and Maintenance"
$25 million for an Army Corps "Regulatory Program"
$126 million for Interior Department "water reclamation and reuse projects"
$80 million for "rural water projects"
$18.5 billion for "Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy" research in the Department of Energy. That money includes:
$2 billion for development of advanced batteries
$800 million of that is for biomass research and $400 million for geothermal technologies
$1 billion in grants to "institutional entities for energy sustainability and efficiency"
$6.2 billion for the Weatherization Assistance Program
$3.5 billion for Energy Efficiency and Conservation Block Grants
$3.4 billion for state energy programs
$200 million for expenses to implement energy independence programs
$300 million for expenses to implement Energy efficient appliance rebate programs including the Energy Star program
$400 million for expenses to implement Alternative Fuel Vehicle and Infrastructure Grants to States and Local Governments
$1 billion for expenses necessary for advanced battery manufacturing
$4.5 billion to modernize the nation's electricity grid
$1 billion for the Advanced Battery Loan Guarantee Program
$2.4 billion to demonstrate "carbon capture and sequestration technologies"
$400 million for the Advanced Research Projects Agency (Science)
$500 million for "Defense Environmental Cleanup"
$1 billion for construction and repair of border facilities and land ports of entry
$6 billion for energy efficiency projects on government buildings
$600 million to buy and lease government plug-in and alternative fuel vehicles
$426 million in small business loans
$100 million for "non-intrusive detection technology to be deployed at sea ports of entry
$150 million for repair and construction at land border ports of entry
$500 million for explosive detection systems for aviation security
$150 million for alteration or removal of obstructive bridges
$200 million for FEMA Emergency Food and Shelter program
$325 million for Interior Department road, bridge and trail repair projects
$300 million for road and bridge work in Wildlife Refuges and Fish Hatcheries
$1.7 billion for "critical deferred maintenance" in the National Park System
$200 million to revitalize the National Mall in Washington, D.C.
$100 million for National Park Service Centennial Challenge programs
$200 million for repair of U.S. Geological Survey facilities
$500 million for repair and replacement of schools, jails, roads, bridges, housing and more for Bureau of Indian Affairs
$800 million for Superfund programs
$200 million for leaking underground storage tank cleanup
$8.4 billion in "State and Tribal Assistance Grants"
$650 million in "Capital Improvement and Maintenance" at the Agriculture Dept.
$850 million for "Wildland Fire Management"
$550 million for Indian Health facilities
$150 million for deferred maintenance at the Smithsonian museums
$50 million in grants to fund "arts projects and activities which preserve jobs in the non-profit arts sector threatened by declines in philanthropic and other support during the current economic downturn" through the National Endowment for the Arts
$1.2 billion in grants to states for youth summer jobs programs and other activities
$1 billion for states in dislocated worker employment and training activities
$500 million for the dislocated workers assistance national reserve
$80 million for the enforcement of worker protection laws and regulations related to infrastructure and unemployment insurance investments
$300 million for "construction, rehabilitation and acquisition of Job Corps Centers"
$250 million for public health centers
$1 billion for renovation and repair of health centers
$600 million for nurse, physician and dentist training
$462 million for renovation work at the Centers for Disease Control
$1.5 billion for "National Center for Research Resources"
$500 million for "Buildings and Facilities" at the National Institutes of Health in suburban Washington, D.C.
$700 million for "comparative effectiveness research" on prescription drugs
$1 billion for Low-Income Home Energy Assistance
$2 billion in Child Care and Development Block Grants for states
$1 billion for Head Start programs
$1.1 billion for Early Head Start programs
$100 million for Social Security research programs
$200 million for "Aging Services Programs"
$2 billion for "Office of the National Coordinator for Health Information Technology"
$430 million for public health/social services emergency funds
$2.3 billion for the Centers for Disease Control for a variety of programs
$5.5 billion in targeted education grants
$5.5 billion in "education finance incentive grants"
$2 billion in "school improvement grants"
$13.6 billion for Individuals with Disabilities Education Act
$250 million for statewide education data systems
$14 billion for school modernization, renovation and repair
$160 million for AmeriCorps grants
$400 million for the construction and costs to establish a new "National Computer Center" for the Social Security Administration
$500 million to improve processing of disability and retirement claims
$920 million for Army housing and child development centers
$350 million for Navy and Marine Corps housing and child development centers
$280 million in Air Force housing and child development centers
$3.75 billion in military hospital and surgery center construction
$140 million in Army National Guard construction projects
$70 million in Air National Guard construction projects
$100 million in Army Reserve construction projects
$30 million in Navy Reserve construction projects
$60 million in Air Force Reserve construction projects
$950 million for VA Medical Facilities
$50 million for repairs for military cemeteries
$120 million for a backup information management facility for the State Department
$98 million for National Cybersecurity Initiative
$3 billion for "Grants-in-Aid for Airports"
$300 million for Indian Reservation roads
$300 million for Amtrak capital needs
$800 million for national railroad assets or infrastructure repairs, upgrades
$5.4 billion in federal transit grants
$2 billion in infrastructure development for subways and commuter railways
$5 billion for public housing capital
$1 billion in competitive housing grants
$2.5 billion for energy efficiency upgrades in public housing
$500 million in Native American Housing Block Grants
$4.1 billion to help communities deal with foreclosed homes
$1.5 billion in homeless prevention activities
$79 billion in education funds for states

This is the biggest spending bill in history. BTW they have admitted that only 10% of this will actualy create jobs, and in a few years not right now. Increasing government intrusion in your daily life and you praise this action? This money has to come from somewhere. Your pockets the tax payer and your childrens children. And with all the extra government taxes on corporations you can bet they will ship even more jobs elsewhere increasing unemployment.

[BalrogLord]

oh god reminds me of the canadian budget(which was a failure to say the least). At least i now know where Harper got his inspiration.

[ms07gtr]

Thats because socialisim never works. It always leads to a failed economy. The free market system can find a perfect equalibrium as long as government stays out of the way and lets it work. Our current situation was caused by government interferance in the market, and can't be solved with MORE Government interferance.

The speed at which they are pushing this thing should shoot up a giant red flag for anyone with a lick of common sense. When government is trying to shove someting through this quickly, be reassured you dont want it. The bigger the government gets, the smaller your power as an individual becomes.

[TW501]

The best way to get everything back on track and people working again is to lower corporate tax rates encouraging growth and in doing so creating jobs across the board not in years but weeks.



Yeah, because that's worked so well for the last eight years. Doing nothing but giving corporations and the wealthy big tax-cuts has failed. I'm not saying this plan is perfect, but it's better than if nothing had been done at all. Regardless of whether you agree with the provisions or not, it is clear to most people (including republicans) that some sort of stimulus plan is needed. Frankly, you have entirely misrepresented the plan by only listing the amount of money. By creating that list without explaining the point of what the funds are to be used for and how they will be used, you have fundamentally misrepresented the point of the plan.

Here is a brief (but far more accurate and clear) listing of where the funds are going and what they will be used for.

Tax Cuts ($275 billion)
Payroll tax-cuts, tax credits for higher ecucation, and tax credits for first-time home buyers will be issued. Also, despite your moaning about taxes, you'll notice that tax cuts actually constitute the largest part of the plan (though since the tax-cuts go to people rather than corporations, I suppose you're against that).

Education ($141.6 billion)
This money will be spent to provide relief to states and prevent cut backs on key services, including local schools, public colleges, and universities, as well funds for critical services and for higher education modernization. It is important that in this economic crisis, schools are not left underfunded and students disadvantaged due to lack of funding. Maintaining a good education system is vital for the future of the country after all.

Health Care ($112.1 billion)
It will affect every part of health care, from medical and nursing education, to how patients are treated and how much hospitals get paid. Money will go to medicaid, health technology, and measures to ensure better care for patients.

Welfare/Unemployment ($102 billion)
Includes job training, unemployment benefits, and food stamps.

Infrastructure ($90 billion)
Funding to modernize federal and other public infrastructure with investments that lead to long-term energy cost savings, highway construction, clean water, flood control, environmental restoration, transit, and rail.

Energy ($58 billion)
Funding for 'smart grid', renewable energy tax cuts, and similar measures.

There are of course a lot more details, but this does a better job of providing an idea of where the money is going, rather than merely listing all the provisions. I am aware that this is not perfect, but it is very complex and there really is no simple way to describe it. Obviously there are some provisions I might not support as strongly as others, but overall I feel that it is a good concept, as do several prominent economists. Of course there are others who oppose it, but that is to be expected with any such measure, and the issue is not nearly as simple as you made it out to be.

Thats because socialisim never works. It always leads to a failed economy. The free market system can find a perfect equalibrium as long as government stays out of the way and lets it work. Our current situation was caused by government interferance in the market, and can't be solved with MORE Government interferance.
No, we got into this mess because there wasn't enough regulation over business. Some government regulation and involvement in the economy is needed for an economy to remain stable. Pure socialism is of course a failure overall, but this isn't pure socialism. If you honestly believe that this is socialism, then I must submit to the theory that you have no idea what socialism is. The government spending money on infrastructure, education, and health care isn't socialism. If the stimulus bill included nationalizing the banks, corporation, and natural resources of the country while raising income taxes to 80%, then it would be socialist. Unless you're one of those people who think that any taxes at all is socialism, there is little way that this can be construed as being truly socialist. BTW, the only country I am aware of that has no taxes at all is the United Arab Emirates, and even they are having severe economic problems right now (so much for your "no tax=no problems" philosophy).

The speed at which they are pushing this thing should shoot up a giant red flag for anyone with a lick of common sense. When government is trying to shove someting through this quickly, be reassured you dont want it. The bigger the government gets, the smaller your power as an individual becomes.
They're passing it through quickly because they want to put it into effect as soon as possible. If this were a bunch of corporate tax-cuts like you wanted and they passed it through quickly, would you assume that it must be horrible? That is rather foolish and simplistic metaphor (if the government wants it you don't? how on eath does that make sense?), and I doubt you understand the point of government. This 'big governmnent' panic is ridiculous. Sure, there should be limits on the power of government, but I don't see how funding schools, healthcare, and infrastructure is the horrible usurpation of individual rights you're making it out to be. It's more hype than just cause for panic. In the worst case scenario, we wouldn't be that much worse off than we are now without it. Stimulus plans have worked in the past, and while it certainly isn't a guaruntee, I'm cautiously optimistic about this.

[ms07gtr]

You need to look at those numbers a little longer. Thats a signifigant DEBT to add to the one from the O so wonderful bailout that hasn't accomplished crap yet and our national debt. When your in a hole you don't dig deeper.

I'm not saying they should do nothing, but this bill is a joke and will not stimulate jobs in the private sector where we need it. All they are doing is taking your money and redistributing it as they, Politicians, see fit. Redistribution of wealth.

Anything the government can do the private sector can do better. Competiton breeds a superior product and innovation in the free market. This has always been the case from computers to fabrics. Government is a highly inefficent mechanisim and should only be used when absolutely necessary. Throwing money at a problem doesn't work, if it did we wouldn't have failing public schools nation wide and two on going wars.

You don't want to help the corporations that provide jobs to almost everyone? I ask you this, if you tax the corporations, the very backbone of our market, at a higher rate than another country why should they stay here? How about the little guy with ten workers trying to stay afloat and you just hit him with another $1000 a month in taxes? Sorry Bob I gotta let you go. A company has to do what has the lowest opprotunity cost and maximise growth and profit to survive. So the big ones go to china Ireland, ect where it can opperate cheeply and make more money while the little guy gous out of business.

And no, you don't want a full blown Unregulated market. On an unregulated market ANYTHING can be sold. Taxes are necessary for a government to function. However the Income tax was a "temporary measure" created to fund a war..and was NEVER repealed. The IRS is a non constitutional entity that opperates without checks and balances that was also "temporary" and look at the monster that became. The tax structure is the worst part of our entire economy. Its the largest in the world and only getting bigger.

Read the fair tax. So simple, so easy, and EVERYONE pays top to bottom even tourist, illegal aliens, politicians, and drug dealers. It's based on how much you purchase and in turn those who consume more pay more. No loopholes, rediculous forms, or pesky 26000+page tax code you need a cpa to sift through. Right now thats not the case. This also would be an easy way to create massive jobs as it lowers tax rates on everyone. It also creates a business friendly enviroment that will encourage massive growth and new business creation. Your taxes are all sales tax one number for all how fair.

I love how you bring up the last eight years, unemployment was at an all time low durring most of that time. And I love the Catch phrase response. I was no fan of that administration or its politics. And please don't group me in with a party I happen to be an Independant. I didn't like Bush but so far Im not impressed with the new guy.

As far as this bill goes, If they want to pass a bill to save a field mouse, a health care bill, an education bill, a Welfare bill, an infistructure bill, or any other spending bill they should do so seperately! Don't call something a "stimulus" when the money is going to government run institutions. That only stimulates GOVERNMENT.

And yes fast moving government "because its an emergency" is a red flag. Thats how they slip crap like the patriot act in on you. You want things seperate so you the voter know what your reps are doing. Politicians are not to be trusted any further than you can throw them. ANY of them.

Tax cuts work, its an economic fact. Putting money in the hands of people not government moves the economy. You have to balance the budget, something they are way over. You don't spend more than you make, another failing point.

Optimisim is fine, but I prefer hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

[TW501]

I love how you bring up the last eight years, unemployment was at an all time low durring most of that time.
Most of your post was a matter of differences in economic philosophy, and of course there are two sides to that debate with good reasons on both sides, but this particular statement is totally inaccurate. Unemployment has been pretty high, at least where I live, for the past eight years. I'm not sure how it was where you live, but Michigan has been struggling ever since the early-2000 recession. The state has had serious funding issues for schools, universities, health care, and other vital areas, having to cut the budget severely and causing the state to be worse off in the long run. I cannot say for sure with where you live, but this stimulus has the potential to greatly benefit Michigan. Most of the governors feel that it will benefit their states as well and support it, including the republican governors.

[Marrow Rivengristel]

The capitalist perfect equalibrium = A whole bunch of people with nothing and a few with everything.

[ms07gtr]

^ actualy thats a perfect example of Socialisim/communisim. Look up Russia circa 1960.

Most of your post was a matter of differences in economic philosophy, and of course there are two sides to that debate with good reasons on both sides, but this particular statement is totally inaccurate. Unemployment has been pretty high, at least where I live, for the past eight years. I'm not sure how it was where you live, but Michigan has been struggling ever since the early-2000 recession. The state has had serious funding issues for schools, universities, health care, and other vital areas, having to cut the budget severely and causing the state to be worse off in the long run. I cannot say for sure with where you live, but this stimulus has the potential to greatly benefit Michigan. Most of the governors feel that it will benefit their states as well and support it, including the republican governors.

My statements were based on basic economic principles any first year business student should know, not philosophy unless you are implying you support a centraly planed economy while I support a mixed market economy. And I'm looking at the nation as a whole, your state run disaster is another problem entirely.

Michigan, that is due mostly to your state run government. Same can be said for Cali. Each state has its own system of government with its own taxes, regulations, laws, and bureaucratic red tape. Cali loves red tape. If your state is suffering from horrible mismanagement, fire those in charge and replace them with people with an opposing thought process. That is how real progress is made in government. Don't complain if you hire the same idiots time and time again.

Basicly what your asking for is those who have managed themselves properly, worked hard, followed the rules, and made the right choices to pick up the slack from those who did not. If I do your work for you, pay your bills, takeover your debt, you will never learn to do it for yourself. It may be a bit harsh, but it is true. You are looking at the situation with feelings not logic. I am sorry your in a bad way, but taking money away from working people and handing it to government run institutions won't help you or anyone else at the bottom.

What you need in your state is an injection of fresh Industry without the unions F'n it up as they have in Detroit. Why do you think all the import car companies build elsewhere in the country? They can get a line worker for well under 100k. Thats not the case where you live due to your current govenment and union monopoly on labor.

Lower tax rates, interest rates, Ax the inflexable unions, and provide new business incentives and your economy will grow quickly. Regulating an already crumbling industry just adds weight and red tape. Spending money you don't have is just creating debt, which is how we got here in the first place.

[TW501]

My statements were based on basic economic principles any first year business student should know, not philosophy unless you are implying you support a centraly planed economy while I support a mixed market economy. And I'm looking at the nation as a whole, your state run disaster is another problem entirely.
When I said economic philosophy, I meant the different ways people view economics and the proper way to conduct them. The fact that you are convinced cutting taxes and government spending is the only proper way of dealing with the economy is proof that different people have different views on what is best for the economy. You of course view yours as the only true way and assert that the facts are on your side, as do those of other viewpoints. Tax-cuts can work, but they're not the only thing that works, nor do they always work. As for your assertion, I do not support a centrally planned economy, I support free market economics but I also believe in some government involvement and regulations. There is no set in stone perfect economic formula, and you will find many brilliant economists who support varying levels of government involvement, from large-scale involvement to none at all.

As for my using Michigan as an example, I do not presume that one state's problems is entirely representative of the nation's problems, but I know that other states face similar problems. I was merely using an example that I was familiar with to demonstrate my point. I'll stop the argument for now though, as we're clearly of very different viewpoints. I'll finish by saying that I wouldn't blame my state's problems on our leaders (neither the democratic governor nor the republican legislature, they've both done the best they could given the conditions).

[ms07gtr]

It's ok. I was like you once. Then I got a job and the real world experiences changed my point of view. There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom and what is and what should be. You also learn alot being on both sides of employment. Those who have never run a business have no idea how it really works.

I opperate by logic and reason using proven economic practices. If you try to run a business on feelings you go under quickly. Tax cuts only work because they increase money in the hands of the consumer. If the consumer has been convinced that the extra funding is temporary they hold onto it, not spend it. if they beleive it will be a continued influx of funds they spend it thus moving the wheels of our system.

A stimulus is a different animal. It is a single shot deal hit or miss. But for it to be defined a a real stimulus bill it should be it's own entity with funding going directly to the people.

It's hard to trust someone with your money when they keep appointing people who don't pay their own taxes to his staff. And if he doesn't fire his press sec. soon he is a fool!

[Marrow Rivengristel]

^ actualy thats a perfect example of Socialisim/communisim. Look up Russia circa 1960.

Actually there is no need to I already know about russia circa 1960 and it's not a perfect example of Socialism/Communism. In fact it's actually an example of totalitarianism. Because as you may or may not be aware communism isn't only an economic system it is a political system based on egalitarianism.

A historical example of the capitalist equilibrium which I was describing would actually be the Northern Italian city states of the 15th century or as a more contemporary example the united states in the 1930's.

[BTC]

Although very in-depth with government issues, I wouldn't consider any of this being on topic.

Maybe a separate thread for History's Economic Rollercoasters? We lost sight of Obama by the end of the first page...

[TW501]

I created a thread dedicated to the recession a while ago. This conversation could probably go there.

[Seanc]

I hope Obama changes the housing market for the better. I'm tired of not being able to sell my house. OBAMA WOOOT!!!!

[Belial]

Actually there is no need to I already know about russia circa 1960 and it's not a perfect example of Socialism/Communism. In fact it's actually an example of totalitarianism. Because as you may or may not be aware communism isn't only an economic system it is a political system based on egalitarianism.

A historical example of the capitalist equilibrium which I was describing would actually be the Northern Italian city states of the 15th century or as a more contemporary example the united states in the 1930's.

If we're looking for perfect examples then there are no perfect examples of capitalism, as its pure form requires the abscence of government and it has never even been tried

[BalrogLord]

So da president came up north. i must say his reception was much more friendly then it has been over the last few years.

[octocheese]

I heard he has an 80% approval rating up there. Higher than here in the states I believe.

[BalrogLord]

yeah its really sad considering most canadians dont even know who the new leader of the liberal party is. And back when we had our coalition fiasco no1 knew (it was even in the john daily show, he was making fun of our parlimentary system).

Earlier peter mansbridge interviewed him on the national. http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/02/17/obama-cbc.html
(link for those who are interested.)

"But … we are going to abide by our World Trade Organization and NAFTA obligations just as we always have,"

Umm yeah... about that, does the word softwood lumber disputes ring any bells?

[octocheese]

I heard that quote too. Don't know about the lumber disputes though. Not really on my radar.

[BalrogLord]

we export softwood lumber to the states. Under nafta they should be free of tarifs, however they are not, when we export softwood lumber to the states it is taxed. Weve been to the courts several times, won the case, and nothing changed.

[octocheese]

Oh. Canadian or US courts. Not that it mattered under Bush.

[Exploits]

Oh. Canadian or US courts. Not that it mattered under Bush.

Both technically. It first started when (I use these words with bias and honesty) the U.S. Softwood Lumber Industry ran up to the U.S. Government, pissing and moaning because they were being, essentially, taken over by the British Columbia (Canadian) Softwood Lumber Industry, and stated that the only way this was feasible is if they were being subsidized by the Government. The U.S. investigated, disagreed (As it was not a set subsidy), and did nothing.

A few years later, the U.S. Industry pissed and moaned again, and this time the U.S. Government said that the Canadian Industry was subsidized, even though nothing changed from the first investigation. Suddenly the fee to cut lumber in Canada (The "stumpage fee") was so low that it was considered a subsidy regardless. The U.S. practically forced an embargo on our lumber if we refused to agree to their new tariffs. So of course we did, since taxed lumber is better than no lumber.

Eventually we became fed up with the tariffs, since our lumber industry was now beginning to fall apart, so we refused their agreement a few years down the road and appealed their tariffs. The investigation was done by a panel of judges (Three Canadian, two American), who in the end decided that there was indeed no subsidy on Canadian Lumber, and that American tariffs were unjust. But the U.S. refused the decision under the basis of what was essentially "Patriotism", saying that of course the three Canadian judges (Already a majority) would not vote against their own country. This of course ignoring the fact that one Canadian did vote against Canada, and the American Judges voted against the American decision as well. Regardless, the new decision was that instead of tariffs, there would be a limit on the amount of lumber we would be allowed to export into the U.S. for a number of years (Ten, so until 2001).

Once 2001 came around, nobody knew what to do anymore, so the U.S. went right back to saving its industry's own ass by attempting to impose a 25% tariff on our lumber (HUGE number). At this point, we were subsidizing our lumber, but only in order to counter the American tariff - A tariff that surpassed this actual subsidy due to the "stumpage fee" being considered "too low" (Which is a mindless argument, considering each nation is entitled to their own workings). Canada this time appealed the American decision to NAFTA. NAFTA agreed that Canada was subsidizing, but also stated that the American tariffs were far too high.

The United States countered this by claiming that their lumber industry was under threat from the Canadian one, which by World Trade Organization Laws, would allow the U.S. to reimpose their full-tariffs (25%) pending investigation. But the investigation, done by NAFTA, found that the U.S. Industry was under threat by just competition from the Canadian Industry, which essentially meant that the U.S. was using under-handed tactics to overcome the growing monopolization of the Canadian Industry for their own profit. Despite the fact that this time, the board that reviewed this agreed unanimously (Regardless of where the judges came from), the U.S. appealed the decision and refused to follow it, continuing to tariff Canadian Lumber.

Ruling went back and forth, with American investigations finding the States in the right, while Canadian and sometimes International investigations found Canada to be in the right. Eventually the U.S. agreed to cut their 25% tariffs down to 15%, although this was with bitterness. To attempt to tariff more, the U.S. Government launched a new investigation, and instead found that 15% was too high, and the Government (By their own findings) was now forced to drop the rates to 11%.

Finally a new International investigation found that Canada's subsidy, including the "stumpage tax", does not exceed even 1% for the entire Lumber Industry in Canada. The U.S. finally folded, after something like twenty years of childish arguing. Half of our industry basically imploded because of all of this bullshit, and in the end, the States didn't even have the balls to say sorry, or even pay for the full damages (They agreed to give us $4billion of the total $5.5billion in economic costs and damages from the tariffs). So basically we won the deal, but still paid the U.S. a billion dollars for our troubles.

Thank God for free trade!

[Fatstogey]

I hope Obama changes the housing market for the better. I'm tired of not being able to sell my house. OBAMA WOOOT!!!!

Dude Obama shouldnt toucht he housing market. This shit is getting ridiculous with all these bailouts. We still have to pay that money back with interest.

He needs to let these banks and let GM fail. That is the free market. Jobs get lost and companies fail. You cant stop it. But he is gonna make it soooo much worst. Hes doing what hes being told to do. And he is furthering the agenda of the elite. Hes gonna finish bankrupting the country then were gonna go socialist. Well we are socialists already. But its getting worst.

People dont seem to understand that all these bailouts. WE HAVE TO PAY FOR THEM. Every single tax payer on this forum is paying for GM workers to have jobs when their company is no longer profitable. That is fucking ridiculous.

[porfavor]

Every tax payer pays for bailouts, but every tax member pays for unemployment dues, too. When someone is unemployed, they receive some fees to help out a bit. It isn't a ridiculous amount, but it is enough to survive on. With the failure of such gigantic companies such as Ford and GM, hundreds of thousands of people will be unemployed. We the taxpayers will have to pay for this too. Such a large number of unemployment will tank the economy more, as those unemployment will consume less, therefore hurting more and more companies.

In the long run, it's better that we bail out the companies, but we should ensure that the money goes to good use instead of to the fat cat corporate heads.

[BalrogLord]

considering how many jobs directly and indirectly the big 3 provide, its essentiel to keep them going. When this recession is over and the economy can take these companies failing then by all means cut the ropes. But cutting our losses now is just going to agravate the problem.

[ms07gtr]

The best thing the big three could do is a complete restructuring of their corporations. They could do this by filing for chapter 11 which they should have done already. They have already cut thousands of jobs nation wide, and dealers are also shutting down everyday. The bailout money might keep them afloat in the short term, but it won't matter as consumer confidence is now beyond repair.