Aizen + Tousen -vs- Urahara + Tessai

[He's a Mentalist]

Who'd win?

[Nocturne' Ichigo]

Aizen & Tousen would win....Aizen really appears to have the upper hand in any battle he's in...Urahara's intelligence will help himself...not soo much tessai

[Yayap]

Aizen can't fight in Tousen's bankai (illusions would be utterly useless, plus he wouldn't be able to see). So they would have to fight 1 on 1. I can't see Urahara attacking Tousen while Aizen is there. He'd go straight for Aizen, imo, as Tessai can handle Tousen (at least from what we've seen of him).

The general consensus of the Bankai Tousen Vs Tessai thread was that Tessai would win, so this really just boils down to Urahara Vs Aizen. Unless Aizen successfully attacks Tessai first, then it's up in the air, but he's more likely to concentrate on Urahara. We know too little about Aizen & Urahara for me to make a conclusion atm.

[pumpkin13]

Tessai -> Forbiddon kidou: Time Stop = Win.

[fakeobsession]

I think Urahara & Tessai would win, cause we have seen Tousen losing against Kenpachi...which means he is not unbeatable like Aizen,who is the ^ultimate power.
If Tousen is the weak point I think,and Urahara would figure it out and come up with something to beat Aizen as revenge for the past events...
Tessai is also powerful and with Urahara as partner they could (well,if not defeat) at least be a great obstacle in front of Aizen.

[excptas]

Tessai -> Forbiddon kidou: Time Stop = Win.

QFT. Tessai & Urahara win.

[TW501]

Aizen and Tousen would win. Tousen wouldn't add much, but Aizen is strong enough to beat Urahara and Tessai, and Tousen would just tip the scale in their favor a little more.

[Mindwrack]

Urahara & Tessai.

Urahara is extremely smart and I'm sure he could think of something quick to turn the situation in his favor. Tessai has forbidden kidou too, and who knows how many more forbidden kidou there is and how much he can use.

[GOWSRB]

Depends on how fast Tousen is taken down. While Aizen is a huge threat, if Tousen manages to get his bankai going, there is pretty much no way for Urahara and Tessai to effectively retaliate without endangering each other.

If they do take him down quickly, then there is still Aizen's hax shikai to deal with. And there is no evidence suggesting that Urahara has a means of circumventing its hold over the senses.

[pumpkin13]

Aizen and Tousen would win. Tousen wouldn't add much, but Aizen is strong enough to beat Urahara and Tessai, and Tousen would just tip the scale in their favor a little more.

How does Aizen bypass the time stop?

[Nocturne' Ichigo]

How does Aizen bypass the time stop?

we don't know wut Kidos Aizen knows for one....especially since Aizen was able to stop tessei kido with another high powered kido with little effort

[GOWSRB]

we don't know wut Kidos Aizen knows for one....especially since Aizen was able to stop tessei kido with another high powered kido with little effort

Effort wasn't a factor with that. The kidou Aizen performed did exactly what it was meant to do. And seeing as now if Aizen had botched the spell it would be a different story. But seeing as he performed it correctly, there was no need to worry about it's effect.

[Nocturne' Ichigo]

Effort wasn't a factor with that. The kidou Aizen performed did exactly what it was meant to do. And seeing as now if Aizen had botched the spell it would be a different story. But seeing as he performed it correctly, there was no need to worry about it's effect.

exactly my point...Aizen is very good at Kido as well...we don't know wut he doesn't know...Urahara and Tessai were already shocked about his skills back then...imagine now

[kaname95]

I think Urahara & Tessai would win, cause we have seen Tousen losing against Kenpachi...which means he is not unbeatable like Aizen,who is the ^ultimate power.
If Tousen is the weak point I think,and Urahara would figure it out and come up with something to beat Aizen as revenge for the past events...
Tessai is also powerful and with Urahara as partner they could (well,if not defeat) at least be a great obstacle in front of Aizen.

What does this have to do with Tessai and Urahara.Kenpachi won against him for two main reasons,first ,Kenpachi was able to tank all of the blows that Tousen dealt to him(something i doubt Urahara and Tessai could do).Secondly, Tousen did not stick to to his strengths (I.e using intellegence and stratagy)and he tried to out brawl the king of brawlers.

Also form what some of you have been saying Tousen and Aizen cant work together which is highly doubtful,some one else stated that Tousen would not be much of a factor then if he is not going to be a factor why include him.Also why cant Tousen attack Tessai when his bankai goes up before he does his kidou?

[darkhole]

Meh, commercial during the cavs & magic game so i'll make this quick... Aizen & Tousen.

[pumpkin13]

we don't know wut Kidos Aizen knows for one....especially since Aizen was able to stop tessei kido with another high powered kido with little effort

GOWSRB's right, Aizen's kidou did exactly what it was meant to. The surprising thing was that he could pull it off unchanted. Hacchi however has to date done more impressive feats than even Aizen in the SS arc. If anything Aizen failing to release the full capability of his Kurohitsugi lessons his reputation as a successful kidou wielder.

And besides, Tessai's #88 was a targeted attack, which bakudou #80 is designed specifically to stop (up to #90), whereas the matter transferral forbiddon kidou appears to be able to target a wide patch of ground, but time stop I personally cannot see being a targeted move. It affects all of time. I dunno what Aizen would be able to pull out of his ass to defend against that.

The only thing i can think of would be #99 Kin, and so far his usage of high level spells has not been perfect. Unlike Tessai. Who, may I also remind you specialises in kidou and has been around for alot longer than Aizen.

[UnadvisedGoose]

^Yeah. Bottom line- Aizen would get smashed in a Kido only duel. There's really no arguing that. The Kido Aizen performed in the TBTP arc was only impressive for a VC. Byakuya can do it, and it seems easily. And Byakuya seems good at Kido, but nowhere near Tessai or Hachi. So thats the only reason Tessai held back and thought Hadou 88 would be more than sufficient. He happened to be wrong. Now he knows what Aizen is capable of. And Kido in the 90's seem to be impressive even for Captain ranks. And the Forbidden stuff is just something I think only Tessai can do, or knows how anyway. And from how Hachi seems to be able to make up his own Kido spells(he said he developed the barrier around the Vizard Hideout only after he obtained his hollow powers), I would assume Tessai can manipulate the forces of Kido to a higher degree than anyone else(excluding maybe, MAYBE Hachi) and maybe even create his own Kido, like the Forbidden stuff.

As for this thread, its pointless. Aizen throws everything out the window. We know next to nothing about what he could do with his hax shikai. He throws this all outta whack for me. Though pumpkin brings up a good point for the Time Stop thing. . . Anyway, I think Gin and Tousen vs. Urahara and Tessai would make for a better match. Maybe. Tessai would still stomp Tousen. . . Oh well I'm just babbling at this point. :tongue:

[GarraoftheGravel]

What make people think Tessai wouldn't make for an effective tank? I think that comparing him to kempachi is unfair because he is the mother of all tanks. Komamura is capable of major tanking, but does that mean he sucks because Kenpachi can to an unreal extent? No.

[Optimu5xPrim3]

Aizen and Toussen for the win.

Aizen would have his shikai already active before the battle even began, ensnaring Urahara and making him attack Tessai. If Toussen releases his Bankai, Tessai cant see where Urahara is attacking from and before you know it, no more Tessai. After that Aizen just has a sadistic field day.

[pumpkin13]

This is the battle pit, unless specifically stated in the OP, all participants start at their most base forms.

Aizen's illusion ability needs a base around which to work. So against Tessai, he'd have three bases, himself, Tousen, and Urahara, now I can quite easily see Aizen making Urahara look like himself, or Tousen, but inside the timestop the illusions don't really matter. Tessai just kills all three. Alternatively he uses that reiatsu tracking kidou that they use in the SS arc to bypass the illusion and find out which one Aizen and Tousen really are (KS can't affect reiatsu) and then he kills the two which are the right ones, judging from the reiatsu tracking kidou.

[Nocturne' Ichigo]

GOWSRB's right, Aizen's kidou did exactly what it was meant to. The surprising thing was that he could pull it off unchanted. Hacchi however has to date done more impressive feats than even Aizen in the SS arc. If anything Aizen failing to release the full capability of his Kurohitsugi lessons his reputation as a successful kidou wielder.

And besides, Tessai's #88 was a targeted attack, which bakudou #80 is designed specifically to stop (up to #90), whereas the matter transferral forbiddon kidou appears to be able to target a wide patch of ground, but time stop I personally cannot see being a targeted move. It affects all of time. I dunno what Aizen would be able to pull out of his ass to defend against that.

The only thing i can think of would be #99 Kin, and so far his usage of high level spells has not been perfect. Unlike Tessai. Who, may I also remind you specialises in kidou and has been around for alot longer than Aizen.

I'm not debating that Aizen is on par with Tessai's kido ability because that would be foolish but the fact is that Aizen has good kido skills and combining that with his already dangerous zan makes a lethal combo. I seriously doubt Aizen would get into a kido only battle with Tessai.

[pumpkin13]

From what I've seen Aizen's zan is most effective when it's applied to non-direct-combat situations, ie. the fooling of Seireitei in it's entirety with his faked death. When put into an arena like situation it's ability to decieve and it's effectiveness at doing so (whilst not completely nullified) is limited somewhat.

Good kidou skills yeah, but when someone the likes of Tessai is included in the match up "good" doesn't cut the mustard. And all of this becomes irrelevant in a time stop.

Of course don't forget whilst we haven't seen Aizen's bankai we haven't even seen Tessai's shikai let alone his bankai.

For those who might argue that he doesn't have a zan, I think it highly likely he does, Hacchi does so why not Tessai? Just because they're in kidou corps doesn't mean the should be considered to have been excluded. Kidou corps are still shinigami, and all shinigami have zans. Hell even C46 probably had zans.

[Nocturne' Ichigo]

From what I've seen Aizen's zan is most effective when it's applied to non-direct-combat situations, ie. the fooling of Seireitei in it's entirety with his faked death. When put into an arena like situation it's ability to decieve and it's effectiveness at doing so (whilst not completely nullified) is limited somewhat.

Good kidou skills yeah, but when someone the likes of Tessai is included in the match up "good" doesn't cut the mustard. And all of this becomes irrelevant in a time stop.

What about when Aizen used it against Komamura? it was pretty effective then...Aizen has only used it indirectly..but i believe he could use it directly to deceive and his speed can help with this. Not to mention Aizen has alot of power.

[pumpkin13]

Not to mention Tessai does.

Like I said the most obvious tactic he'd use would be to make Tessai think Urahara was either Aizen or Tousen, and disguise himself as Urahara. Time Stop, reiatsu trackm ~fini~.

[Kaizokon]

I failed to find a point that Aizen team up with Tousen will had a chance to win Urahara and Tessai.. Inside Tousen bankai, Aizen ability will seems like useless. Tousen wil be much stronger if he solo against his enemy.. If is Aizen team up with Gin, it will be better than Tousen's team. Urahara and Tessai, the team looks OK but Tessai looks like he can't fight so well without his kido skill..
Who knows? Maybe he had a kido skill that can blast Aizen's ability and make it useless..

[fakeobsession]

What does this have to do with Tessai and Urahara.Kenpachi won against him for two main reasons,first ,Kenpachi was able to tank all of the blows that Tousen dealt to him(something i doubt Urahara and Tessai could do).Secondly, Tousen did not stick to to his strengths (I.e using intellegence and stratagy)and he tried to out brawl the king of brawlers.

Also form what some of you have been saying Tousen and Aizen cant work together which is highly doubtful,some one else stated that Tousen would not be much of a factor then if he is not going to be a factor why include him.Also why cant Tousen attack Tessai when his bankai goes up before he does his kidou?

@What does this have to do with Tessai and Urahara : it was an example to show that we have seen Tousen losing...But i don't recall Aizen-Urahara-Tessai losing against someone...
That's what i meant!

@Tousen did not stick to to his strengths : bad for him,he almost got himself killed...not a good tactic IMO

@then if he is not going to be a factor why include him : he is the only one that Aizen can't fool since he is blind and his illusion don't work on him

@Also why cant Tousen attack Tessai when his bankai goes up before he does his kidou? :yeah of course he could...though Tessai doesn't need light to use kidou so either way he could attack.

uh,i don't have anything against Tousen...all are just my opinion!

[He's a Mentalist]

From what I've seen Aizen's zan is most effective when it's applied to non-direct-combat situations, ie. the fooling of Seireitei in it's entirety with his faked death. When put into an arena like situation it's ability to decieve and it's effectiveness at doing so (whilst not completely nullified) is limited somewhat.

Good kidou skills yeah, but when someone the likes of Tessai is included in the match up "good" doesn't cut the mustard. And all of this becomes irrelevant in a time stop.

Of course don't forget whilst we haven't seen Aizen's bankai we haven't even seen Tessai's shikai let alone his bankai.

For those who might argue that he doesn't have a zan, I think it highly likely he does, Hacchi does so why not Tessai? Just because they're in kidou corps doesn't mean the should be considered to have been excluded. Kidou corps are still shinigami, and all shinigami have zans. Hell even C46 probably had zans.

Aizen is skilled enough to combat Tessai in a kidou duel, but more than likely he'll use all of his shinigami powers. Tessai has pulled off some forbidden kidou skills (incantation was used as well because, Urarahara was told to plug his ears.). I am also pretty sure Aizen knows of the forbidden kidou as well. Tessai can't just use it out of no where, he'll have to use the incantation which could take a few minutes/seconds depending on how long it takes to recite. That gives Aizen or Tousen enough time to create some sort of attack against him. Shinigami can shunpo pretty fast and the area of the battle isn't that large. Also, Tessai never has used a kidou skill 90+ without incantation.

Inside Tousen bankai, Aizen ability will seems like useless.Not exactly. While Tousen's bankai does inhibit everyone inside it from using their senses, Tousen also has the ability to allow people to use theirs senses in his bankai. Besides, it being one -vs- one inside his bankai, what would Aizen need to do in there? I am pretty sure Tousen can deal with anyone inside his bankai if he thinks properly about the situation at hand.

Time Stop, reiatsu trackm ^ Look above.

[kaname95]

@What does this have to do with Tessai and Urahara : it was an example to show that we have seen Tousen losing...But i don't recall Aizen-Urahara-Tessai losing against someone...
That's what i meant!

@Tousen did not stick to to his strengths : bad for him,he almost got himself killed...not a good tactic IMO

@then if he is not going to be a factor why include him : he is the only one that Aizen can't fool since he is blind and his illusion don't work on him

@Also why cant Tousen attack Tessai when his bankai goes up before he does his kidou? :yeah of course he could...though Tessai doesn't need light to use kidou so either way he could attack.

uh,i don't have anything against Tousen...all are just my opinion!

At your first point okay, i get you to a point but you have to look at how he lost and the fact that Urahara only had one serious fight so far (vs yammi) and the fight did not finish.As for Tessai, has he really fought at all and for Aizen well he is Aizen the main villain.

For the second point i was saying that was probably the main reason why he lost why he lost.

It does not matter that Aizen's shikai does not work on him because he is already on Aizen's side.His Commanding Officer actually.

For you last point " though Tessai doesn't need light to use kidou so either way he could attack."it takes away you sences except touch.Also more importantly you need to aim at your target for a lot of hados and bakudos.You cant aim when you cant see plus his bankai takes away your ability to sence spiritual energy .

[pumpkin13]

Tessai inside Tousen's bankai-> Time Stop -> Matter Shift outside of the bankai -> big nasty destructive kidou -> end.

[He's a Mentalist]

Did ya read my previous post?

[Paragon]

Pumpin, from what Nex pointed out, Tessai is not be able to skip incantation for the forbidden Kidou, so things really would not go down as easily as you imagine.

[darkhole]

Aizen is skilled enough to combat Tessai in a kidou duel, but more than likely he'll use all of his shinigami powers. Tessai has pulled off some forbidden kidou skills (incantation was used as well because, Urarahara was told to plug his ears.). I am also pretty sure Aizen knows of the forbidden kidou as well. Tessai can't just use it out of no where, he'll have to use the incantation which could take a few minutes/seconds depending on how long it takes to recite. That gives Aizen or Tousen enough time to create some sort of attack against him. Shinigami can shunpo pretty fast and the area of the battle isn't that large. Also, Tessai never has used a kidou skill 90+ without incantation.



I was waiting for someone to finally mention this. I was eventually going to get around to it myself. But yeah, because of the fact that Tessai told Urahara to cover his ears most likely he had to say the entire incantations for the time stop and teleportation. Thus, its probably completely useless in battle against any captain class shinigami, let alone someone like Aizen.

Next, although Aizen does appear to use other objects for his illusions with his shikai, he's not limited to people. A rock on the ground could become something, a tree, etc.

Another thing, people don't give Tousen enough credit. Kenpachi while definitely not high tier, would probably be ranked around 3rd or 4th in bleach as far as "reiatsu" goes. Thus his ability to tank so much damage. Tousen, inside his bankai, 1 shotted 2 captains and 2 vc's during the TBTP ARC in like 2 to 3 seconds.

If he went bankai and immediately flash stepped over to either Tessai or Urahara while they're still in their "wtf moment" it's highly likely he would drop 1 of them. Because when Tousen goes bankai, unless they already know what it does, and there's nothing to suggest that they do, there's gonna be like a 1 to 2 second "wtf moment" that could be taken advantage of by Tousen.

[GarraoftheGravel]

Hey has anyone thought of having Urahara block for Tessai? So far no one has made a notice to Urahara's shikai's Blood Red Shield (or Red Blood Shield, can't quite remember). We don't know how strong he truely is so we don't know strong his shield can be, he blocks for Tessai long enough for him to do his incantation. Even is Tousen goes streight to bankai, Urahara has enough reaction to set the shield around Tessai or at least around where he last felt his spiritual pressure in time enough block Tousen (and Tousen can't control who his bankai effects, the only people who don't lose theirs senses are those who are touching his sword).

[fakeobsession]

At your first point okay, i get you to a point but you have to look at how he lost and the fact that Urahara only had one serious fight so far (vs yammi) and the fight did not finish.As for Tessai, has he really fought at all and for Aizen well he is Aizen the main villain.

For the second point i was saying that was probably the main reason why he lost why he lost.

It does not matter that Aizen's shikai does not work on him because he is already on Aizen's side.His Commanding Officer actually.

For you last point " though Tessai doesn't need light to use kidou so either way he could attack."it takes away you sences except touch.Also more importantly you need to aim at your target for a lot of hados and bakudos.You cant aim when you cant see plus his bankai takes away your ability to sence spiritual energy .


I like your points,especially the last one.Tessai could use a kidou that doesn't need an exact target but yeah the possibilities to hit Tousen would be limited.
About ^It does not matter that Aizen's shikai does not work on him because he is already on Aizen's side.His Commanding Officer actually. it doesn't,but this may explains the reason why Aizen took him side.Maybe he was not so powerful at first place,and Aizen had to share with him some of his ^power - secrets or at least guide him,in order to reach his current level.

[Feranor]

Tousen pales in comparison to the other three, he's somewhat good at Kidou and has a h4x Bankai, but that's it. Kidou won't help him since he's dealing with Tessai and neither does his Bankai since Tessai can easily cover its whole space with his attacks. Also, Aizen would be next to useless within the dome, so he probably wouldn't even use it.

Aizen is the problem here as we still don't know how powerful his Shikai is. The only thing it did so far was make his Zanpakutou or someone else look like himself. He didn't do anything close to what he said his Shikai was capable of (complete control over all senses...), so I can't give a definite answer.

[Soujirou]

You people Forget that Current Tousen is at a different level of what he was on SS arc, and also here at HM Tousen showed us his true potential, while he is balanced all around, he seems to be a little more inclined to Kidou, which he didn't use against Kenpachi at all for whatever reason, so yeah, Tousen would be an asset to Aizen in this battle, and since Aizen is probably at least a little stronger than both Urahara and Tessai, their chance of winning is great.

Now about Tessai's Forbidden Spells, they are made of so much H@x that if you where to match Tessai with anyone, anyone could just say, Tessai stops the time and rape this guy, end thread, i dont see it was fair as far as this Sub-Forum Matches go.

[pumpkin13]

Nes raises some fair points, but they are not watertight.

First the incantation usage: Are you suggesting he used the full incantation? Because Tessai would ask Urahara to block his ears for just saying "Forbiddon Tech #XX Jikanteishi" (ie unchanted) as he would for saying "Flying wheels of time halt still your whirling motions, let stop the lightning crack and calm the roaring seas, third staff of Shuushin, seventh fork of Jukashin, bring silence to this ground below; Jikanteishi!" (i made that up just as an example of the kind of chant that kidou spells seem to have).

As for the chant itself, well, the time it takes is actually pretty ambiguous. Byakuya apparently said "Bakudou Hachijuuichi Danku" before Amor's ability (which for all intents and purposes seems to work at the speed of light as it uses eyes to capture targets) could capture him. ANd previously Amor caught his foot before, or even perhaps in the process of, him shunpoing... so it cannot be slow. So that is a moot point really.

Also, Tessai never has used a kidou skill 90+ without incantation.
So are you implying that Tessai cannot perform 90+ kidou without incantation? When his VC can?

[punni]

Aizen is skilled enough to combat Tessai in a kidou duel, but more than likely he'll use all of his shinigami powers. Tessai has pulled off some forbidden kidou skills (incantation was used as well because, Urarahara was told to plug his ears.). I am also pretty sure Aizen knows of the forbidden kidou as well. Tessai can't just use it out of no where, he'll have to use the incantation which could take a few minutes/seconds depending on how long it takes to recite. That gives Aizen or Tousen enough time to create some sort of attack against him. Shinigami can shunpo pretty fast and the area of the battle isn't that large. Also, Tessai never has used a kidou skill 90+ without incantation.

Not exactly. While Tousen's bankai does inhibit everyone inside it from using their senses, Tousen also has the ability to allow people to use theirs senses in his bankai. Besides, it being one -vs- one inside his bankai, what would Aizen need to do in there? I am pretty sure Tousen can deal with anyone inside his bankai if he thinks properly about the situation at hand.

^ Look above.

most unlikely.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-61-page-16.html

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-146-page-14.html

[pumpkin13]

Yeah I was certain Tessai had used chantless level 99 bakudou somewhere...

And I was also wondering where the "Tousen also has the ability to allow people to use theirs senses in his bankai" bull came from too.

[Yayap]

And I was also wondering where the "Tousen also has the ability to allow people to use theirs senses in his bankai" bull came from too.

He probably meant that anyone holding Tousen's sword regains their senses, so someone else could hold the sword and fight alongside him. But that would be rather awkward, Tousen & Aizen running round together like that (effectively holding hands), attacking Urahara & Tessai. Which is just madness imo.

Tessai doesn't need to know their location to use kidou. Hadou 88 & 90 were massive. Spamming spells that have a wide angle of attack or are area of effect like those two would be much more likely to hit some hidden enemy than say, using Hadou 4. Plus Tessai can set up barriers & traps like Hinamori did, limiting Tousen's movements or even hurting him.

[fakeobsession]

i agree with Yayap...and anyways,why should they fight in the same place huh?
they could fight from some distance i mean if Urahara is match for Aizen
& Tousen for Tessai they could fight in different places so kidou & Tousen's bankai wouldn't affect their comrades.

[He's a Mentalist]

most unlikely.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-61-page-16.html

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-146-page-14.html

Yeah I was certain Tessai had used chantless level 99 bakudou somewhere...

And I was also wondering where the "Tousen also has the ability to allow people to use theirs senses in his bankai" bull came from too.

I concede on the Tessai not using kidou point. But Tousen's weakness in his bankai is also an ability and that was what I was pointing out.

[Exiazer0]

Aizen by himself enough

[pumpkin13]

quiet noob, go back to your corner of noobishness and let the men do the real work.

[plotkaislayer]

Pumpkin's timestop argument made realize that all Bleach needs to do to end is just have Tessai timestop Aizen in Fake KKT and stab him in the face. Series over. :D

Then again, this is why the writers of Heroes got rid of Hiro's time/space ability. It messed up the plot too much.

[He's a Mentalist]

^True, that is why I believe there is some type of limitation to the ability, or it takes a while to chant. It would be the end of Bleach if those types of forbidden kidou could be used anytime, anywhere over a large area. Time stop may have an area to inflict effect on a particular people, so the people would have to be in range, similar to Tousen's bankai.

[UnadvisedGoose]

I believe the Time Stop is within a limited area. Thats the only way it makes sense. I'm pretty sure he didn't stop all of time, just time in a limited area. But I'm quite certain he knows how to perform every Kido, thats not Forbidden, without the incantation, perfectly. Which means he can do three times+ more damage/power just from Hadou 90 than what Aizen did to Komma. So, really this is just Tousen and Tessai, considering we know next to nothing as to how Aizen and Urahara would fight. And I started a thread on Tessai v. Tousen earlier. Nearly everyone agreed that Tessai would win. As they should.

But as for Aizen and Urahara, as I said, I have no idea how they would try and fight each other. We don't know enough about them to even really speculate much beyond the obvious, IMO. . .

[Mikeno]

Wow.. I cant believe Hat-an-Clogs and the Magic-Man are winning this..

Aizen by himself can solo for dolo.. lol.. while Tousen goes off to play fetch with Vasto-Boy..


unless of course Urahara creates 3D goggles that double as illusion destroyers.. of course.. {-_-'}..


And I started a thread on Tessai v. Tousen earlier. Nearly everyone agreed that Tessai would win. As they should.

Wait why SHOULD they all agree..? either way..? What about that fight makes the outcome seem certain..?

[UnadvisedGoose]

Go to the thread and see. :amused:

I think only one or two people thought Tousen would win. But we can continue that discussion there if you want.

Oh and I guess I said they SHOULD, because I am a rabid Tessai fan. Duh. :tongue:

[pumpkin13]

Aizen can solo? Maybe with a vaizard mask, but Tessai will give him some major troubles. In a Kidou only match Tessai would rape him.

[UnadvisedGoose]

Very true, but unfortunately Aizen does have his to-the-max-Hax zan.

But we don't know how exactly it will work in battle(we've seen glimpses, but not much). People like Unohana could actually find flaws in the illusions. Maybe someone with ridiculous skill and/or intelligence(i.e. Urahara) could learn to see through, or at least stay alive and fight back against the illusions.

[truffles]

I have to agree with Pumpkin and a few other posters here.

Tessai's abilities are beyond anything we've seen in Bleach thus far. (including Aizen's Shikai) The ability to manipulate time is just insane. It's literally Godlike.

Having said that, there MUST be some sort of restriction to Tessai's techniques. If not, then he is quite possibly, the most powerful character in Bleach. -and that's not an exaggeration.. if you really "stop and think about it." :P

[He's a Mentalist]

Having said that, there MUST be some sort of restriction to Tessai's techniques

Him not using time stop on Aizen when they were escaping might be an indication that using it against enemies who are in the midst of running, or in battle would make the technique useless. It isn't all that people are making it up to be.

[Mikeno]

Aizen can solo? Maybe with a vaizard mask, but Tessai will give him some major troubles. In a Kidou only match Tessai would rape him.

In my estimation Aizen wouldnt require a vaizard mask.. him in my eyes being the 2nd strongest character to date with a possibility of him being THE strongest (thats up to Kubo to decide) wouldnt need much help if any.. no slight against Urah and Tessai they are powerful characters.. it just seems like it would need to be more than them to take on Aizen..


And its highly likely that Tessai would beat Aizen in a kidou only match.. but thats not what this is about is it.. also theres the fact that Aizen seemed disinterested in performing the hadou in its entirety on Fox-man which could downplay his expertise in kidou.. eh iono..

in anyway I believe Aizen wins sans Tousen..


I have to agree with Pumpkin and a few other posters here.

Tessai's abilities are beyond anything we've seen in Bleach thus far. (including Aizen's Shikai) The ability to manipulate time is just insane. It's literally Godlike.

Having said that, there MUST be some sort of restriction to Tessai's techniques. If not, then he is quite possibly, the most powerful character in Bleach. -and that's not an exaggeration.. if you really "stop and think about it." :P

The same can be said for like 10 other characters.. you can basically just fill in the blank with about half of the characters in Bleach.. doesnt make Chad more powerful than Zommari or Inoue to Byakuya.. just a few examples..


Also Tessai is exceptional at Kidou.. not the only guy who can perform it.. doesnt make him unique..

[punni]

The thing is nothing that Aizen did is that impressive when compared to Urahara and Tessai.

Aizen has 2x captain class reiatsu. No big deal, Hitsugaya has captain class reiatsu. A few captains have (more than) twice that much reiatsu. And I definitely count Urahara and Tessai in that group.

Aizen sliced thru Bankai Hitsu like butter, but we dont know if he used shikai or not. Looking at the Hitsu - Luppi - Urahara fight: Urahara would have no problem slicing thru Bankai Hitsu with shikai.

Aizen downed Komamura with Kidou, but Tessai could do it better and Aizen used his illusions.

Aizen downed GJ in his conference room.We dont know what really happened, but it is unlikely that it was reiatsu pwnage. This is still a highly controversial topic, and we dont need to discuss it here.

Tessai didnt have a wound on him after the nuke like explosion (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-64-page-8.html), that destroyed Bakudo #99 song II, when Ichigo regained his shinigami powers. And he was 2 meters away from Ichigo. In a similar situation the Vizards cleared the immediate area.

Urahara accomplished in less than 9 years what Aizen couldnt do in more than 100 years (the Hougyoku)


IMO it comes down to Aizen's shikai, and we dont know exactly what it can do. Because what he said it can do isnt what he showed until now. As (fairly) recent discussion brought to my attention Aizen's shikai always changed something into him, and most of the time another person. Even when he screwed Komamura.

Anyway Im undecided, but Im sure Tousen isnt a factor in this.

[pumpkin13]

Nice Punni, agreed. Even the stuff that Hacchi, Tessai's VC at the time pulls off is more impressive that the stuff that Aizen does 90 years later as a captain.

I'll reiterate.

Step 1: Jikanteishi - Temporal stasis. It stops time within an area apparently, this area is unlikely to be so small that Tessai could not capture both Aizen and Tousen in it.

Step 2: Kūkanten'i - Spatial Displacement, just incase they happen to be trapped in Tousen's bankai at the time.

Step 3: Bakudou #58 Kakushitsuijaku - spiritual tracking to negate any potential illusions Aizen may be using.

Step 4: Lay down some Kidou or Benihime pwnage.

It's as simple as that.

[UnadvisedGoose]

Very nice points punni. I agree completely.

The only factor in this is Aizen's illusions. Thats the sole reason he is a threat to anyone who is considered pretty powerful.

also theres the fact that Aizen seemed disinterested in performing the hadou in its entirety on Fox-man which could downplay his expertise in kidou.. eh iono..


Also Tessai is exceptional at Kidou.. not the only guy who can perform it.. doesnt make him unique..

As for the bolded, Im not sure what you mean. . . Are you saying that Aizen wasn't trying to use the full power of the spell? Because that doesn't quite make sense to me. Bottom line is that Aizen failed at something Tessai could almost definitely do, in fact Tessai would be able to do it with supposedly three times + more power. . . And there are also nine others more powerful than that, and I would be surprised if he couldn't do all of those as well.

And no, the fact that he can do it is not unique, but the skill with which he can is. Sure it may not be exactly battle applicable, but the guy can still stop time, and move entire portions of space with Kido. Thats why I find it highly unlikely that he cant perform up to 99 of every Kido, without incantation, perfectly. And we all saw what level 90(at less than 1/3 of its potential) did to a Captain, and one whom I would assume to be pretty tough. . .

[pumpkin13]

And from what we've seen the difference between a captain and a vc is >>>>>>> so if his VC can manage to pull off chantless #99 spells then almost certainly he can too.

[darkp]

Aizen+tousen is not a good combo but they will win for sure : D cause aizen's even shikai seems enough too kick other normal captain asses.

[kochito22]

since when are urahara and tessai normal captains?

[kaname95]

What is a normal captain?,you cant define a normal captain since every captain has their strengths and weaknesses.Well ,unless you say Hitsuguya but normal would be the wrong word, average might be better for him.

[Mikeno]

The thing is nothing that Aizen did is that impressive when compared to Urahara and Tessai.

Everything Aizen has done has been impressive thus far even when being compared with Ura and Tessai..

Speedblitzing and knifing through Hitsu..
Performing 90 level chantless hadou on Sabrewulf..
Reiatsu owning Grimmjow (not even sure how that can be in doubt)..
blocking a fully released zan with his FINGER.. WITH HIS FINGER..!!! lol.. without the benefit of hierro..


Aizen has 2x captain class reiatsu. No big deal, Hitsugaya has captain class reiatsu. A few captains have (more than) twice that much reiatsu. And I definitely count Urahara and Tessai in that group.

Eh the only thing that Urahara has going for him in that reguard is that he released the hougyoku.. but I find it hard to believe that Aizen has just 2x captain level reiatsu.. he stated basically that that was the minimum requirement to fully utilize the hougyoku.. not necessarily that thats his level of power..

Aizen sliced thru Bankai Hitsu like butter, but we dont know if he used shikai or not. Looking at the Hitsu - Luppi - Urahara fight: Urahara would have no problem slicing thru Bankai Hitsu with shikai.

It was his unreleased zan.. he speedblitzed the shit out of Hitsu that wasnt his shikai effect.. no wilting of the illusion as we see on other occasions..

Aizen downed Komamura with Kidou, but Tessai could do it better and Aizen used his illusions.

Eh.. that much is probably certain.. the part where Tessai could do it better.. dont quite get the part where you say Aizen used his illusion.. do you think it empowered him to be able to pull it off or gave him the time to..? if its the latter them Im sure the performance of the move would take the same amount of time meaning Tessai would have taken just as long to perform it chantless..

Aizen downed GJ in his conference room.We dont know what really happened, but it is unlikely that it was reiatsu pwnage. This is still a highly controversial topic, and we dont need to discuss it here.

The same effects were displayed as weve seen several times over when the reiatsu takedown move has been employed.. unless your on to something I know nothing of.. then it would seem the unlikely tag isnt based in anything.. If you would be so kind as to provide the link to this discussion that would be greatly appreciated..

Tessai didnt have a wound on him after the nuke like explosion (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-64-page-8.html), that destroyed Bakudo #99 song II, when Ichigo regained his shinigami powers. And he was 2 meters away from Ichigo. In a similar situation the Vizards cleared the immediate area.

Erm.. I concede this.. I mean it is my belief that Tessai is the most skilled at kidou currently as to how much more than Aizen I also believe to be negligible in this discussion..

Urahara accomplished in less than 9 years what Aizen couldnt do in more than 100 years (the Hougyoku)

Well thats Uraharas specialty.. he is unparalleled in Bleachdom where science is concerned.. when considering this Kurotsuchi's prowess as a scientist can be argued over Aizens.. hardly grounds for saying hes more powerful though IMO..

IMO it comes down to Aizen's shikai, and we dont know exactly what it can do. Because what he said it can do isnt what he showed until now. As (fairly) recent discussion brought to my attention Aizen's shikai always changed something into him, and most of the time another person. Even when he screwed Komamura.

Wait refresh my memory please.. I thought the image Komamura saw just disintegrated into the wind.. didnt see it shift back into an object..

Anyway Im undecided, but Im sure Tousen isnt a factor in this.

not a factor.. I dont know I would go that far.. in a support role Tousen would prove deadly.. if it were 1-on-1 then 1-on-1 format Tousen in all likely-hood would come out with the short end each time.. but to say he couldnt compete I believe is a reach..


Nice Punni, agreed. Even the stuff that Hacchi, Tessai's VC at the time pulls off is more impressive that the stuff that Aizen does 90 years later as a captain.

I'll reiterate.

Step 1: Jikanteishi - Temporal stasis. It stops time within an area apparently, this area is unlikely to be so small that Tessai could not capture both Aizen and Tousen in it.

Step 2: Kūkanten'i - Spatial Displacement, just incase they happen to be trapped in Tousen's bankai at the time.

Step 3: Bakudou #58 Kakushitsuijaku - spiritual tracking to negate any potential illusions Aizen may be using.

Step 4: Lay down some Kidou or Benihime pwnage.

It's as simple as that.

OMG youre right.. its so simple that.. it hasnt been done yet.. {o_o}.. LOL..

and your logic is wrought with things we cant sustain yet.. like the maximum distance/effectiveness of certain kidou spells..or the ease of pulling of a bakudou over a hadou or vice-versa..

Alright I'll humor you.. lets say for instance that Tessai and Urahara are comparable to Aizen in power.. how do they get past his shikai ability..?


The only factor in this is Aizen's illusions. Thats the sole reason he is a threat to anyone who is considered pretty powerful.

You mean besides the fact that he himself is Uber.. right..? I doubt the only thing saving Aizens ass right now is his SHIKAI.. lmao..

As for the bolded, Im not sure what you mean. . . Are you saying that Aizen wasn't trying to use the full power of the spell? Because that doesn't quite make sense to me. Bottom line is that Aizen failed at something Tessai could almost definitely do, in fact Tessai would be able to do it with supposedly three times + more power. . . And there are also nine others more powerful than that, and I would be surprised if he couldn't do all of those as well.

Well Aizen wasnt trying to use the FULL extent of the spells power.. if that was his intention then he would have used the incantation..



And no, the fact that he can do it is not unique, but the skill with which he can is. Sure it may not be exactly battle applicable, but the guy can still stop time, and move entire portions of space with Kido. Thats why I find it highly unlikely that he cant perform up to 99 of every Kido, without incantation, perfectly. And we all saw what level 90(at less than 1/3 of its potential) did to a Captain, and one whom I would assume to be pretty tough. . .

Im sure Tessai can use every kido up to level 99.. but what Im not sure of is if he can use everyone to full power without the incantation.. of which Im bordering on the probably not.. As well you made a point for me that we dont know those aforementioned kidous battle applications.. In the absence of Tessai performing them on Aizen while still knowing of the situation leads me to believe little to none at that time..





________


If any of you decide to respond to this wall of text do so at your own PERIL..!!!

lmao naaa.. just respond to my separate answer to you i.e. punni to punni..

[pumpkin13]

Everything Aizen has done has been impressive thus far even when being compared with Ura and Tessai..

Speedblitzing and knifing through Hitsu..(a)
Performing 90 level chantless hadou on Sabrewulf..(b)
Reiatsu owning Grimmjow (not even sure how that can be in doubt)..(c)
blocking a fully released zan with his FINGER.. WITH HIS FINGER..!!! lol.. without the benefit of hierro..(d)

It was his unreleased zan.. he speedblitzed the shit out of Hitsu that wasnt his shikai effect.. no wilting of the illusion as we see on other occasions..(e)

Eh.. that much is probably certain.. the part where Tessai could do it better.. dont quite get the part where you say Aizen used his illusion.. do you think it empowered him to be able to pull it off or gave him the time to..? if its the latter them Im sure the performance of the move would take the same amount of time meaning Tessai would have taken just as long to perform it chantless..(f)

The same effects were displayed as weve seen several times over when the reiatsu takedown move has been employed.. unless your on to something I know nothing of.. then it would seem the unlikely tag isnt based in anything.. If you would be so kind as to provide the link to this discussion that would be greatly appreciated..(g)

Erm.. I concede this.. I mean it is my belief that Tessai is the most skilled at kidou currently as to how much more than Aizen I also believe to be negligible in this discussion..(h)

Well thats Uraharas specialty.. he is unparalleled in Bleachdom where science is concerned.. when considering this Kurotsuchi's prowess as a scientist can be argued over Aizens.. hardly grounds for saying hes more powerful though IMO..(i)

Wait refresh my memory please.. I thought the image Komamura saw just disintegrated into the wind.. didnt see it shift back into an object..(j)

not a factor.. I dont know I would go that far.. in a support role Tousen would prove deadly.. if it were 1-on-1 then 1-on-1 format Tousen in all likely-hood would come out with the short end each time.. but to say he couldnt compete I believe is a reach.. (k)

OMG youre right.. its so simple that.. it hasnt been done yet.. {o_o}.. LOL..

and your logic is wrought with things we cant sustain yet.. like the maximum distance/effectiveness of certain kidou spells..or the ease of pulling of a bakudou over a hadou or vice-versa..(l)

Alright I'll humor you.. lets say for instance that Tessai and Urahara are comparable to Aizen in power.. how do they get past his shikai ability..?(m)

You mean besides the fact that he himself is Uber.. right..?(n) I doubt the only thing saving Aizens ass right now is his SHIKAI.. lmao..

Well Aizen wasnt trying to use the FULL extent of the spells power.. if that was his intention then he would have used the incantation..(o)

Im sure Tessai can use every kido up to level 99.. but what Im not sure of is if he can use everyone to full power without the incantation.. of which Im bordering on the probably not..(p) As well you made a point for me that we dont know those aforementioned kidous battle applications.. In the absence of Tessai performing them on Aizen while still knowing of the situation leads me to believe little to none at that time..


(a) Urahara fcking around with Yammi, I wonder how Hitsu would do against him... Speedblitz shunpoing behind yammi with his blade at his neck.

(b) I'm actually going to take a step down from Tessai, Hachi, his VC performing chantless #99 "Kin" and using a binding kidou as an offensive move against Hollow Kensei (who is likely to have been stronger than Komma, in terms of resilience/endurance at least). Kin takes him out cold. If Hachi can do it, Tessai can do it with ease.

(c) As punni said, still highly controversial, i'll let him post the link to the thread.

(d) Ichigo had just gone all out against Byakuya, and it was not stated that he had been healed. Inbetween his battle with Byakuya and Aizen there was hardly anybody on Soukyouku, I believe his nakama had retreated to a safe distance.

(e) If I recall correctly Hits was in bankai? I have yet to see Hitsuguya use shunpo in bankai, so speedblitzing someone who either cannot, or doesn't have the capacity to use shunpo in their current state, is hardly amazing.

(f) Aizen's use of his shikai shocked and stunned Komma, causing him to drop his defenses/ not pay attention allowing Aizen to use his kidou. This is also likely the reason as to why Koma was downed by a 1/3 power kidou. He got back up again shortly afterwards and was in good enough conidition to refuse treatment from 4th division.

(g) See (c)

(h) It shows the amount of punishment/ Tessai's endurance. Not coming out with a scratch in a situation like that is highly impressive. Comparitively we haven't see anything to suggest a uberly similar level of endurance from Aizen. What stopping an exhausted bankai noobs sword attack with your finger? Hardly comparable to getting nuked.

(i) Scientists generally tend to be highly observent and about their wits when paying attention to things. Against Aizen's illusions this would be of great use, he could likely spot somethings amiss somewhere etc etc.

(j) Aizen cannot make illusions from nothing. If you go back and read it again, you'll see Gin, Tousen and Aizen all there, then the bit with Koma ensues, and you'll notice that Gin is gone, then the illusion starts to dissipate, and if you look at the left hand side of Aizen's person, his right shoulder is beginning to change, and it appears to turn into a white long baggy sleeved haori of a similar fashion to the style that Gin wears. Then pop all of a sudden Gin is back. Conclusion: he used Gin as the basis for his shikai usage there.

(k) Tousen's bankai could make him a factor, but aside of that I don't see him causing to many problems. His Cry release is unlikely to seriously affect Tessai and Urahara, and Urahara's blood mist shield would protect them against his second shikai myriad blades attack.

(l) What makes you think pulling of a hadou is more difficult that pulling off a bakudou? They're given the same numbering system so I would assume they are roughly of equal difficulty to pull off. Plus when you get to Tessai's level of skill this is all really irrelevant.

(m) Bakudou #58 spiritual tracking, Aizen cannot mask his reiatsu with his illusions.

(n) This is your downfall ultimately. You believe Aizen to be uber when in actual fact he is not as godlike as you assume. He is a master of deception and lies, so you're going to take anything that comes out of his mouth at face value? On top of that his special ability is weaving illusions, most prominantly visual illusions, so you're going to take everything you see from him at face value too? Nice.

Also, Ukitake says "long time no see" to Tessai, and Ukitake is roughly 2000-1800 years old, so for him to say "long time" it must have been quite a while, implying that Tessai is quite an old veteren captain. So what makes you think Aizen, who has been captain for a maximum of 90 years is more powerful than Tessai in reiatsu? (other than the GJ incident which should be avoided as it is still argued upon)

(o) So you're saying that in order to utilise the spell's full power he would have to use the chant? Whereas Hacchi, nevermind Tessai, can execute a full powered #99 Kin chantless? And he did this at VC level, 90 years prior to Aizen failing his at captain level. It's not a case of him "not wanting to kill Koma" why should he give a shit? He's on his way out of there and these people serve no purpose to him anymore, so why should he spare their lives? He's hardly the caring type.

(p) Again, refer to Hacchi, his VC being able to perform a flawless #99 Bakudou, then add the large gap between VC level and Captain level and you're still unsure as to whether Tessai can cast all spells chantless?

[Mikeno]

*inhales* *exhales*

Okay lets go

(a) Urahara fcking around with Yammi, I wonder how Hitsu would do against him... Speedblitz shunpoing behind yammi with his blade at his neck.

It was never shown that Ura speedblitzed Yammi.. you can draw your own conclusion on how he got there but you cannot be certain one way or the other.. its basically the same situation with Aizen and Hitsu they used a decoy to get closer to their target.. you cant be sure if they shunpo'd or not.. the only difference being is Aizen wrecked Hitsu..

(b) I'm actually going to take a step down from Tessai, Hachi, his VC performing chantless #99 "Kin" and using a binding kidou as an offensive move against Hollow Kensei (who is likely to have been stronger than Komma, in terms of resilience/endurance at least). Kin takes him out cold. If Hachi can do it, Tessai can do it with ease.

Oh you mean this Move (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-325-page-11.html).. thats not offensive.. thats a defensive technique a bind spell.. as he has previously stated/shown he is quite adept with binding spells..

(c) As punni said, still highly controversial, i'll let him post the link to the thread.

Koo..

(d) Ichigo had just gone all out against Byakuya, and it was not stated that he had been healed. Inbetween his battle with Byakuya and Aizen there was hardly anybody on Soukyouku, I believe his nakama had retreated to a safe distance.

Well in your estimation how much force would you say was behind that strike..? Would it have been able to at least cut Byakuya..? uh Renji maybe..? or perhaps Hanatorou wouldnt have even flinched..? what would you say is reasonable..? Also to note he did almost exactly the same thing to a completely healthy (ATM) Komamura minutes later.. except with two fingers that time..

(e) If I recall correctly Hits was in bankai? I have yet to see Hitsuguya use shunpo in bankai, so speedblitzing someone who either cannot, or doesn't have the capacity to use shunpo in their current state, is hardly amazing.

Upon further review I have realized that Aizen did use his illusion on Hitsu.. and though it appears he used it in conjuction with shunpo to what degree I am no longer certain..

(f) Aizen's use of his shikai shocked and stunned Komma, causing him to drop his defenses/ not pay attention allowing Aizen to use his kidou. This is also likely the reason as to why Koma was downed by a 1/3 power kidou. He got back up again shortly afterwards and was in good enough conidition to refuse treatment from 4th division.

Koma didnt drop his defenses he had his sword raised ready to bankai Aizen.. he was confused sure.. but that credit still goes to Aizen for confusing his ass.. and nothing was good enough about his condition he was bleeding all over the place.. Im sure he received medical attention just not at that point.. it was more important for him to get a word in edge-wise where Tousen was concerned..

(g) See (c)

Koo..

(h) It shows the amount of punishment/ Tessai's endurance. Not coming out with a scratch in a situation like that is highly impressive. Comparitively we haven't see anything to suggest a uberly similar level of endurance from Aizen. What stopping an exhausted bankai noobs sword attack with your finger? Hardly comparable to getting nuked.

I agree its not comparable.. the former being more impressive seeing as you are exaggerating the magnitude of the explosion..

(i) Scientists generally tend to be highly observent and about their wits when paying attention to things. Against Aizen's illusions this would be of great use, he could likely spot somethings amiss somewhere etc etc.

hearsay..

(j) Aizen cannot make illusions from nothing. If you go back and read it again, you'll see Gin, Tousen and Aizen all there, then the bit with Koma ensues, and you'll notice that Gin is gone, then the illusion starts to dissipate, and if you look at the left hand side of Aizen's person, his right shoulder is beginning to change, and it appears to turn into a white long baggy sleeved haori of a similar fashion to the style that Gin wears. Then pop all of a sudden Gin is back. Conclusion: he used Gin as the basis for his shikai usage there.

There was no identifiable base for his illusion against Hitsu.. but looking back over that instance (the Koma one) his illusion is seen smiling Gins smile when fading away..

(k) Tousen's bankai could make him a factor, but aside of that I don't see him causing to many problems. His Cry release is unlikely to seriously affect Tessai and Urahara, and Urahara's blood mist shield would protect them against his second shikai myriad blades attack.

Do we KNOW this..? that his blood mist shield would protect them from Tousens blade storm.. I think they would be better suited as to dodge it altogether..

(l) What makes you think pulling of a hadou is more difficult that pulling off a bakudou? They're given the same numbering system so I would assume they are roughly of equal difficulty to pull off. Plus when you get to Tessai's level of skill this is all really irrelevant.

Im not swayed one way or the other to whether its tougher to pull off a hadou over a bakudou or not.. its just that its an uncertainty.. the numbering is in accordance with bakudou to bakudou and hadou to hadou they are still two different spell techniques and thus one CAN be more challenging than the other..

(m) Bakudou #58 spiritual tracking, Aizen cannot mask his reiatsu with his illusions.

I know of the spell.. its a tracking technique used to find and communicate with others over great distances.. and is sorta lengthy to perform even chantless.. I still fail to see how that would work in battle..

(n) This is your downfall ultimately. You believe Aizen to be uber when in actual fact he is not as godlike as you assume. He is a master of deception and lies, so you're going to take anything that comes out of his mouth at face value? On top of that his special ability is weaving illusions, most prominantly visual illusions, so you're going to take everything you see from him at face value too? Nice.

That is your downfall ACTUALLY.. believing that your opinion on a character whose abilities are still widely unknown to be fact..
And also stop speaking in extremes.. sounds like youre trying to pass me off as some fan of Aizen..

Also, Ukitake says "long time no see" to Tessai, and Ukitake is roughly 2000-1800 years old, so for him to say "long time" it must have been quite a while, implying that Tessai is quite an old veteren captain. So what makes you think Aizen, who has been captain for a maximum of 90 years is more powerful than Tessai in reiatsu? (other than the GJ incident which should be avoided as it is still argued upon)

Nice how the Grimmjow argument should be avoided when such evidence supports my claims.. I'll tell you something else that should be argued.. is the fact that youre reading too much into the "long time no see" that statement in no way determines how "long" was it and that Tessai had been a captain for that long let alone a shinigami..

(o) So you're saying that in order to utilise the spell's full power he would have to use the chant? Whereas Hacchi, nevermind Tessai, can execute a full powered #99 Kin chantless? And he did this at VC level, 90 years prior to Aizen failing his at captain level. It's not a case of him "not wanting to kill Koma" why should he give a shit? He's on his way out of there and these people serve no purpose to him anymore, so why should he spare their lives? He's hardly the caring type.

Where does it say that the #99 Kin was at its full power..? and youre using circular logic if Aizen doesnt give a shit why would he care if Koma died or not..? and nowhere did I say he wasnt trying to kill Koma I just said it wasnt his intention on using the full power of the spell if it was he would have used the incantation.. understand know..?

(p) Again, refer to Hacchi, his VC being able to perform a flawless #99 Bakudou, then add the large gap between VC level and Captain level and you're still unsure as to whether Tessai can cast all spells chantless?

Where is it said that it was flawless..? Do you not realize that using the incantation undoubtedly increases the spells power no matter the user..?

[pumpkin13]

*inhales* *exhales*

Okay lets go



It was never shown that Ura speedblitzed Yammi.. you can draw your own conclusion on how he got there but you cannot be certain one way or the other.. its basically the same situation with Aizen and Hitsu they used a decoy to get closer to their target.. you cant be sure if they shunpo'd or not.. the only difference being is Aizen wrecked Hitsu..



Oh you mean this Move (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-325-page-11.html).. thats not offensive.. thats a defensive technique a bind spell.. as he has previously stated/shown he is quite adept with binding spells..(a)



Koo..



Well in your estimation how much force would you say was behind that strike..? Would it have been able to at least cut Byakuya..? uh Renji maybe..? or perhaps Hanatorou wouldnt have even flinched..? what would you say is reasonable..?(b) Also to note he did almost exactly the same thing to a completely healthy (ATM) Komamura minutes later.. except with two fingers that time..(c)



Upon further review I have realized that Aizen did use his illusion on Hitsu.. and though it appears he used it in conjuction with shunpo to what degree I am no longer certain..



Koma didnt drop his defenses he had his sword raised ready to bankai Aizen.. he was confused sure(d).. but that credit still goes to Aizen for confusing his ass.. and nothing was good enough about his condition he was bleeding all over the place.. Im sure he received medical attention just not at that point.. it was more important for him to get a word in edge-wise where Tousen was concerned..



Koo..



I agree its not comparable.. the former being more impressive seeing as you are exaggerating the magnitude of the explosion.. (e)



hearsay..



There was no identifiable base for his illusion against Hitsu(f).. but looking back over that instance (the Koma one) his illusion is seen smiling Gins smile when fading away..



Do we KNOW this..? that his blood mist shield would protect them from Tousens blade storm.. I think they would be better suited as to dodge it altogether..(g)



Im not swayed one way or the other to whether its tougher to pull off a hadou over a bakudou or not.. its just that its an uncertainty.. the numbering is in accordance with bakudou to bakudou and hadou to hadou they are still two different spell techniques and thus one CAN be more challenging than the other..(h)



I know of the spell.. its a tracking technique used to find and communicate with others over great distances.. and is sorta lengthy to perform even chantless.. I still fail to see how that would work in battle..(i)



That is your downfall ACTUALLY.. believing that your opinion on a character whose abilities are still widely unknown to be fact..(j)
And also stop speaking in extremes.. sounds like youre trying to pass me off as some fan of Aizen..



Nice how the Grimmjow argument should be avoided when such evidence supports my claims.. I'll tell you something else that should be argued.. is the fact that youre reading too much into the "long time no see" that statement in no way determines how "long" was it and that Tessai had been a captain for that long(k) let alone a shinigami..



Where does it say that the #99 Kin was at its full power..?(l) and youre using circular logic if Aizen doesnt give a shit why would he care if Koma died or not..? and nowhere did I say he wasnt trying to kill Koma I just said it wasnt his intention on using the full power of the spell if it was he would have used the incantation.. understand know..?(m)



Where is it said that it was flawless..? Do you not realize that using the incantation undoubtedly increases the spells power no matter the user..?(n)

(a) I never stated it was an offensive hadou spell. I said it was a binding spell used offensively, ie as an attack that takes Hollow Kensei out in one go, stone cold. I say stone cold, cus if he hadn't have been then he would have been grunting and howling and struggling to get free for the rest of that situation. Either way it doesn't change my point.

(b) I'd say full strength Byakuya could have blocked that with his bare hand. We actually already saw Byakuya use his bare hands against bankai Ichigo, it drew blood, but then Ichigo wasn't completely exhausted and Byakuya wasn't at full energy. Renji easily with his zan. Hanatarou... cmon you're just being tongue in cheek there aren't you.

(c) People should forget about the Aizen stopping bankai ichigo with one finger and start citing this as a worthty feat more often. It is actually probably the most impressive thing I personally believe Aizen to have done.

(d) confused, stunned, paused for a fraction of a second, whatever it was it meant Aizen had time to perform the kidou on Koma without him moving out of the way, tensing himself up, or calling his shikai/bankai to defend him from the kidou.

(e) Point still stands, Tessai came out unscratched from a large explosion. An explosion powerful enough to outright obliterate a three tier #99 hadou.

(f) I didn't actually argue that he DID use his illusions on hits. I think he likely just speedblitzed him there. However he DID use his illusion on Koma. That's all i'm saying.

(g) no we don't know for sure but dodging it might not be as easy as its a spread attack area. Focusing defence in one place around you would be a better idea.

(h) I see no reason to assume hadou is more difficult than bakudou.

(i) It does not communicate with people over a wide area, it is purely a soul power tracking device. The wide area loudspeaker bakudou is #77 Tenteikura that Isane Kotetsu and Tousen use.

(j) I could quite easily have typed this at you in the first place, the door swings both ways. I think I have a better basis not trusting someone who is skilled in lying and decieving as well as visual illusions though.

(k) The GJ incident is widely disputed, it would be folly for you to base an argument on it. I'm doing you a favour.

You say "had been a captain that long let alone a shinigami" when I never actually indicated a specific period of time. If someone who is used to vast lengths of time, says something is long, likeliness is they are going by their own concept of what is long, ie in relation to their own experiences, so likelihood is that Tessai has been a captain for at least 200 years, and Ukitake hadn't seen him for least 50 and thats at the very minimal end of the scale.

(l) I say it was flawless because it did more than it was meant to, without the incantation having been used. Compare it to the first stage of the #99 Kin that Tessai uses on Ichigo. He uses the full incantation and it binds Ichigo's arms together. At this point ichigo does not have shinigami powers.

Compared to Hacchi's that completely FLOORS and takes down, apparently out cold, hollow Kensei (and we know, or at least understand the jist of how much more powerful Hollowified things are ref; Vaizards trying to subdue ichigo's hollow during his inner battle, it at that point appears to be stronger than Vaizard mask bankai Ichigo). Without the chant. So i'd say if it's pretty perfectly executed.

(m) my main query would be why not use the full power of the spell? If he's really all that uber then he should be able to use bring it up to at least 90% efficiency without the chant. I'd say if somone is good enough they can perform a chantless kdiou at 100% efficiency, once they've reached that stage when they then apply the chant they can upp it to 120-50% perhaps. So if Aizen is really that uber then why not use the full power without the chant? One less G13 captain the better.

(n) Yeah, and it still fucked over a captain level berserker hollow entity, out for the count, so i'd say it was damn well good enough as it is.

[UnadvisedGoose]

You mean besides the fact that he himself is Uber.. right..? I doubt the only thing saving Aizens ass right now is his SHIKAI.. lmao..

LOL. Are you seriously saying that anything Aizen has done(in the grand scheme of things) could have been accomplished without his shikai? His betraying of SS, his creating the Vizards, obtaining the Hogyoku, etc. Thats what makes Aizen dangerous. He's not so uber that without his illusions he could take on Yama for example. So yes, his shikai IS "saving his ass" right now. If he didn't have that, he wouldn't be anywhere close to where he is now. . . That much seems quite obvious.


Well Aizen wasnt trying to use the FULL extent of the spells power.. if that was his intention then he would have used the incantation..

He obviously was trying to use the full extent without the incantation, otherwise he wouldn't have said he failed, and only managed to bring out less than a 1/3 of the spells potential. . .

Im sure Tessai can use every kido up to level 99.. but what Im not sure of is if he can use everyone to full power without the incantation.. of which Im bordering on the probably not..

Im quite confused as to how you come to that conclusion. So you're saying that someone who can manipulate the fabrics of SPACE AND TIME with Kido, can't perform the 99 levels of combat applicable Kido? That seems quite stupid to me. And then there's pumpkins point on Hachi. While I agree that Hachi failed to do the spell correctly, I'd say he managed to put quite a bit of power in it(as evidenced by a Captain level Hollow form being taken out in ONE hit, as Kensei hadn't even been touched really up until that point). Tessai however, used the skill neccessary while not crushing Ichigo with the power of the Kido. He performed the same spell, but managed to use finesse while still keeping a lot of holding power over Ichigo. And THEN, Tessai added onto a Kido spell with other layers to it, which was the Bankin. Thats something no one else has done, let alone to a level 99 spell. . . So I'm just confused as to how you think Tessai can't do all 99 of both sets of Kido, perfectly, without incantaion.

As well you made a point for me that we dont know those aforementioned kidous battle applications.. In the absence of Tessai performing them on Aizen while still knowing of the situation leads me to believe little to none at that time..

I don't think I made a point to you at all. If anything I just reinforced my own points. If Tessai can manipulate space and time, with or without an incantation(it doesn't matter), he has more skill with Kido than anyone else is likely to have, even the Ancients. And I find it hard to believe he wouldn't be able to do up to Bakudou 99 and Hado 99, chantless, at full power. And again, I find it very hard to believe he could stop time and teleport chunks of space without some very high reiatsu. He's at least higher-end Mid-tier Captain level, as far as I'm concerned.

Where is it said that it was flawless..? Do you not realize that using the incantation undoubtedly increases the spells power no matter the user..?

Where was this stated? As far as I know, as long as you are good enough with the Kido, you can use the same amount of power that you could get with the incantation, without it. I don't think that with an incantation, you could surpass the maximum potential for the spell, even if you can achieve that maximum potential without the incantation.

[Mikeno]

(a) I never stated it was an offensive hadou spell. I said it was a binding spell used offensively, ie as an attack that takes Hollow Kensei out in one go, stone cold. I say stone cold, cus if he hadn't have been then he would have been grunting and howling and struggling to get free for the rest of that situation. Either way it doesn't change my point.

You contradict yourself again by saying its an attack.. it was never used offensively at all.. it restrained Kensei nothing else..

(b) I'd say full strength Byakuya could have blocked that with his bare hand. We actually already saw Byakuya use his bare hands against bankai Ichigo, it drew blood, but then Ichigo wasn't completely exhausted and Byakuya wasn't at full energy. Renji easily with his zan. Hanatarou... cmon you're just being tongue in cheek there aren't you.

Yeah I wouldnt make that comparison Ichigo rushed Aizen with a full two-handed slashing motion and Aizen blocked it with his finger while he gave a standing thrusting motion with Byakuya.. while you may think theres little to no difference that point holds merit seeing as Kubo has already set the precedence of the importance of swordplay..

(c) People should forget about the Aizen stopping bankai ichigo with one finger and start citing this as a worthty feat more often. It is actually probably the most impressive thing I personally believe Aizen to have done.

Also what he did to Renji's shikai dont forget that Aizen has set the bar on parrying soul cutters with his bare hands.. all are an immense show of power in my eyes..

(d) confused, stunned, paused for a fraction of a second, whatever it was it meant Aizen had time to perform the kidou on Koma without him moving out of the way, tensing himself up, or calling his shikai/bankai to defend him from the kidou.

I still dont see how that is a negative against Aizen.. even if say for instance he didnt have the opening to wtf kidou Kom you dont think Kom would have won do you..?

(e) Point still stands, Tessai came out unscratched from a large explosion. An explosion powerful enough to outright obliterate a three tier #99 hadou.

Eh your opinion my opinion.. I just remember there being more surprise to Aizen blocking zans with his bare hands than Tessai's barrier being destroyed..

(f) I didn't actually argue that he DID use his illusions on hits. I think he likely just speedblitzed him there. However he DID use his illusion on Koma. That's all i'm saying.

Oh I know you didnt but I mentioned earlier that he solely used shunpo in his speedblitzing maneuver but I checked it and he did happen to use his illusion technique.. was just correcting myself..

(g) no we don't know for sure but dodging it might not be as easy as its a spread attack area. Focusing defence in one place around you would be a better idea.

but thats assuming his blood mist shield would be strong enough to block the swords.. and I make no assumption either way..

(h) I see no reason to assume hadou is more difficult than bakudou.

Its not an assumption of mine.. it just seems a possibility.. also certain characters can have a certain affinity for hadou over bakudou.. eh iono.. it just seems a clouded issue to me..

(i) It does not communicate with people over a wide area, it is purely a soul power tracking device. The wide area loudspeaker bakudou is #77 Tenteikura that Isane Kotetsu and Tousen use.

Bakudou 58: Kakushitsuijyaku - Invocation of the tracking birds
This technique allows the user to contact with anyone and can be used to contact more than one person.
PLEASE CLICK HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nihLLCPNZd8&feature=related)
The 2:25 minute mark is where I believe your concern should be directed..
..
..
..
This is the technique which is to aid in the defeat of Sousuke Aizen..? Baffling..

(j) I could quite easily have typed this at you in the first place, the door swings both ways. I think I have a better basis not trusting someone who is skilled in lying and decieving as well as visual illusions though.

NO MY BASIS IS BETTER EERRRRGH!!!!!11 lmao..

(k) The GJ incident is widely disputed, it would be folly for you to base an argument on it. I'm doing you a favour.

Not one time have I based my argument on one sole piece of evidence.. on the contrary I believe that I have built a highly substantiated argument.. one that could stand without the Grimmjow argument.. although I see that situation as being undeniably reiatsu driven given prior such instances and as such will continue to point it out..

*still hoping someone posts the link to that discussion.. gotta see the con to that argument*

You say "had been a captain that long let alone a shinigami" when I never actually indicated a specific period of time. If someone who is used to vast lengths of time, says something is long, likeliness is they are going by their own concept of what is long, ie in relation to their own experiences, so likelihood is that Tessai has been a captain for at least 200 years, and Ukitake hadn't seen him for least 50 and thats at the very minimal end of the scale.

Never did I say you tried to put a real quantity to the years but you were speculating that since Uki is roughly 2 millenia old that Tessai is atleast in the ballpark.. and all I said was there is no way of knowing that right now and that whatever conclusion you think can be made is in fact just hearsay.. for all we know it could have been all of whole year that they last met..

(l) I say it was flawless because it did more than it was meant to, without the incantation having been used. Compare it to the first stage of the #99 Kin that Tessai uses on Ichigo. He uses the full incantation and it binds Ichigo's arms together. At this point ichigo does not have shinigami powers.

When Kensei's inner hollow took over he didnt appear to use any shinigami powers.. not to say he didnt have them.. but I doubt it.. so I think Ichigo not having shinigami powers ATT had little to do with nothing as to his overall power in full hollow mode.. Hichigo and Ichigo's inner hollow seem like two different entities altogether..

Compared to Hacchi's that completely FLOORS and takes down, apparently out cold, hollow Kensei (and we know, or at least understand the jist of how much more powerful Hollowified things are ref; Vaizards trying to subdue ichigo's hollow during his inner battle, it at that point appears to be stronger than Vaizard mask bankai Ichigo). Without the chant. So i'd say if it's pretty perfectly executed.

Hacchi has become more proficient with that binding technique.. it doesnt demonstrate to me that he can do the spell to his best ability without using the chant.. it just did what was necessary..

(m) my main query would be why not use the full power of the spell? If he's really all that uber then he should be able to use bring it up to at least 90% efficiency without the chant. I'd say if somone is good enough they can perform a chantless kdiou at 100% efficiency, once they've reached that stage when they then apply the chant they can upp it to 120-50% perhaps. So if Aizen is really that uber then why not use the full power without the chant? One less G13 captain the better.

So youre in agreement that using the chant increases the effectiveness of.. where we disagree is that 100% output is attainable without using the chant..

(n) Yeah, and it still fucked over a captain level berserker hollow entity, out for the count, so i'd say it was damn well good enough as it is.

but thats the downside of using the chant its time consuming thats why you practice the particular kidou to get it to a level strong enough to where you have the confidence in it to get the job done..






Now as for you Mr. UnadvisedGoose :mad: >>> :box: lmao..

LOL. Are you seriously saying that anything Aizen has done(in the grand scheme of things) could have been accomplished without his shikai? His betraying of SS, his creating the Vizards, obtaining the Hogyoku, etc. Thats what makes Aizen dangerous. He's not so uber that without his illusions he could take on Yama for example. So yes, his shikai IS "saving his ass" right now. If he didn't have that, he wouldn't be anywhere close to where he is now. . . That much seems quite obvious.

No not sayin that his shikai hasnt helped him.. it has.. but Im also saying thats not the only thing he would have going for him.. somewhere somehow you misinterpreted what I was saying.. I really thought I made my words easily discernable Im sorry if otherwise..

Also Im not sure how Yama got into the discussion I thought this was the Aizen/Tousen Vs. Urahara/Tessai thread discussion..

AAAAAAAHHHHHH Im stuck in the wrong thread.. lol..



He obviously was trying to use the full extent without the incantation, otherwise he wouldn't have said he failed, and only managed to bring out less than a 1/3 of the spells potential. . .

He didnt say he failed to perform the kidou to 100%.. all he said was he failed and he brought about less than 1/3 of the spells destructive power.. to what percent would he have felt was a success is unknown..

Im quite confused as to how you come to that conclusion. So you're saying that someone who can manipulate the fabrics of SPACE AND TIME with Kido, can't perform the 99 levels of combat applicable Kido? That seems quite stupid to me. And then there's pumpkins point on Hachi. While I agree that Hachi failed to do the spell correctly, I'd say he managed to put quite a bit of power in it(as evidenced by a Captain level Hollow form being taken out in ONE hit, as Kensei hadn't even been touched really up until that point). Tessai however, used the skill neccessary while not crushing Ichigo with the power of the Kido. He performed the same spell, but managed to use finesse while still keeping a lot of holding power over Ichigo. And THEN, Tessai added onto a Kido spell with other layers to it, which was the Bankin. Thats something no one else has done, let alone to a level 99 spell. . . So I'm just confused as to how you think Tessai can't do all 99 of both sets of Kido, perfectly, without incantation.

Where did I say that..? And please refrain from impugning my intelligence when it seems at every turn you misinterpret or blatantly put words in my mouth.. Im just stating my belief that performing the chant is required to bring about the full potential of the particular spell in accordance with the user.. as much power as Tessai can release without the incantation there is yet the full potential to be held without the particular chant.. thats all I was saying..



I don't think I made a point to you at all. If anything I just reinforced my own points. If Tessai can manipulate space and time, with or without an incantation(it doesn't matter), he has more skill with Kido than anyone else is likely to have, even the Ancients. And I find it hard to believe he wouldn't be able to do up to Bakudou 99 and Hado 99, chantless, at full power. And again, I find it very hard to believe he could stop time and teleport chunks of space without some very high reiatsu. He's at least higher-end Mid-tier Captain level, as far as I'm concerned.

In agreement there..

Thats my fundamental difference with this..

Ive even gone on and made a list stating as such..

PEEP GAME (http://forums.bleachexile.com/showthread.php?p=1575905#post1575905)

Where was this stated? As far as I know, as long as you are good enough with the Kido, you can use the same amount of power that you could get with the incantation, without it. I don't think that with an incantation, you could surpass the maximum potential for the spell, even if you can achieve that maximum potential without the incantation.

All I can site at this moment to support that argument is the Bleach Wiki.. I'll choose to leave it at that for now..

[pumpkin13]

Yeah I wouldnt make that comparison Ichigo rushed Aizen with a full two-handed slashing motion and Aizen blocked it with his finger while he gave a standing thrusting motion with Byakuya.. while you may think theres little to no difference that point holds merit seeing as Kubo has already set the precedence of the importance of swordplay.. My point is when against Byakuya he was near full energy, against Aizen near empty, having jsut had to take on Byakuya. As for importance of swordplay? That's going to be useful against someone who specialises in Kidou. Devestating kidou at that.


I still dont see how that is a negative against Aizen.. even if say for instance he didnt have the opening to wtf kidou Kom you dont think Kom would have won do you..? If Koma hadn't been distracted/ put off and had been prepared for the coming attack I doubt it would have been nearly as affective as it was even in it's 1/3 state.



Eh your opinion my opinion.. I just remember there being more surprise to Aizen blocking zans with his bare hands than Tessai's barrier being destroyed..
I don't think alot of people fully understand the levels of power that were released in that explosion. Not just the FULL extent of Ichigo's shinigami powers (both tamed and untamed, like a freaking reservoir full) but also the FULL powers of his Hollow as well, that even the Vaizard had trouble against. And Tessai is right next to it, and comes out unscathed.


Oh I know you didnt but I mentioned earlier that he solely used shunpo in his speedblitzing maneuver but I checked it and he did happen to use his illusion technique.. was just correcting myself.. kk kewl, no probs.



but thats assuming his blood mist shield would be strong enough to block the swords.. and I make no assumption either way..



Its not an assumption of mine.. it just seems a possibility.. also certain characters can have a certain affinity for hadou over bakudou.. eh iono.. it just seems a clouded issue to me..
Yeah sure, but Tessai is Captain of the kidou corps and a bonafide kidou master, compared to say momo being called a "master". If you've "mastered" something that means it comes to you easily and naturally.


Bakudou 58: Kakushitsuijyaku - Invocation of the tracking birds
This technique allows the user to contact with anyone and can be used to contact more than one person.
PLEASE CLICK HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nihLLCPNZd8&feature=related)
The 2:25 minute mark is where I believe your concern should be directed..
..
..
..
This is the technique which is to aid in the defeat of Sousuke Aizen..? Baffling..
Okay... here's where I'm starting to get confused... Not ONCE does Isane look like she's talking to anybody other than Unohana who's standing next to her. She's evidently reading co-ordinates from the circle in the ground, co-ordinates which are tracking the location of Aizen's reiatsu.

From the Bleach Wiki 58. Kakushitsuijaku (摑趾追雀, Summoning of the Tracking Sparrows) — Tracks and locates any spiritual force the user focuses on. To activate it, the user must draw a circle on the ground, cut into four parts with a specific character in each. The incantation animates the circle, causing various numbers to appear within until the specific set is found. The number set seems to be a variation on longitude and latitude.

The Bleach wiki on Tenteikuura: 77. Tenteikūra (天挺空羅, Heavenly Rickshaws in Silken Air) — Transmits messages to anyone within Soul Society. In addition to reciting the spell, the user must draw specific markings on their arms, which are animated by the spell to convey the messages.

I think you're getting the two mixed up.

My suggested tactics, assuming Aizen is illusioning himself and other things up, is that Tessai uses Timestop. Inside the timestop he uses #58 to track Aizen's reiatsu, allowing him essentially to "see" through Aizen's illusions because he cannot hide his reiatsu with illusions, so if Aizen appears to be over there by the rock or something, yet #58 is telling Tessai that the co-ordinates don't match up and in actual fact he's over there by that tree, then it's evidently an illusion.


NO MY BASIS IS BETTER EERRRRGH!!!!!11 lmao..^_~



Not one time have I based my argument on one sole piece of evidence.. on the contrary I believe that I have built a highly substantiated argument.. one that could stand without the Grimmjow argument.. although I see that situation as being undeniably reiatsu driven given prior such instances and as such will continue to point it out..

*still hoping someone posts the link to that discussion.. gotta see the con to that argument*



Never did I say you tried to put a real quantity to the years but you were speculating that since Uki is roughly 2 millenia old that Tessai is atleast in the ballpark.. and all I said was there is no way of knowing that right now and that whatever conclusion you think can be made is in fact just hearsay.. for all we know it could have been all of whole year that they last met..Nah, if Uki is roughly 2000 years old, then a "long time" for him I would theorise as being upwards of 250 years. So I'd say on top of TBTP Tessai is somewhere between another 500 and 200 years old. I wasn't attempting to infer that he was as old as Uki.



When Kensei's inner hollow took over he didnt appear to use any shinigami powers.. not to say he didnt have them.. but I doubt it.. so I think Ichigo not having shinigami powers ATT had little to do with nothing as to his overall power in full hollow mode.. Hichigo and Ichigo's inner hollow seem like two different entities altogether..But the level of power is comparable. They both have shinigami powers and at those times were being overridden by hollow entities, so I don't see how you can't compare them. Ichigo was insanely strong, as Hollow Kensei appeared to be.



Hacchi has become more proficient with that binding technique.. it doesnt demonstrate to me that he can do the spell to his best ability without using the chant.. it just did what was necessary..And it was effective and worked exactly like it needed to. So flawless as far as i'm concerned.



So youre in agreement that using the chant increases the effectiveness of.. where we disagree is that 100% output is attainable without using the chant..Yeah, there's the disagreement. If someone has mastered it I believe they can achieve 100% or damned well near without the chant. Then they can add increased effectiveness on top of that with chants.


.

[UnadvisedGoose]

Now as for you Mr. UnadvisedGoose :mad: >>> :box: lmao..

Rofl. Bring it!

No not sayin that his shikai hasnt helped him.. it has.. but Im also saying thats not the only thing he would have going for him.. somewhere somehow you misinterpreted what I was saying.. I really thought I made my words easily discernable Im sorry if otherwise..

Also Im not sure how Yama got into the discussion I thought this was the Aizen/Tousen Vs. Urahara/Tessai thread discussion..

AAAAAAAHHHHHH Im stuck in the wrong thread.. lol..

Yes but I was just saying that thats MOSTLY what he has going for him. . . Other than that he hasn't really done anything I wouldn't put past Shunsui or Ukitake. I was using Yama as an example of someone who would crush him if he didn't have his illusions. . . But Yama could crush the VAST majority of characters in Bleach, lol.

He didnt say he failed to perform the kidou to 100%.. all he said was he failed and he brought about less than 1/3 of the spells destructive power.. to what percent would he have felt was a success is unknown..

What does the bolded even mean? Why would he not be going for 100%? Of course thats what he was trying to do, right? And if the spell has its own potential for damage, not what Aizen can bring out of it for damage, then I would assume that he was in fact trying to use all of that potential. It doesn't even make sense for him not to, and then say he failed. . .

Where did I say that..? And please refrain from impugning my intelligence when it seems at every turn you misinterpret or blatantly put words in my mouth.. Im just stating my belief that performing the chant is required to bring about the full potential of the particular spell in accordance with the user.. as much power as Tessai can release without the incantation there is yet the full potential to be held without the particular chant.. thats all I was saying..

Whoa now. . . When have I put words in your mouth ever lol? I was obviously answering a post YOU made, which I assume to be your own words. . .

And this is not what he have been told and shown. What we were told and shown is that the full potential CAN be reached by the user WITHOUT the chant, but only if they have the skill and power neccessary to pull it off, which gets increasingly more difficult as you go up in number. That is what has been shown. However, as pumpkin stated, people like Tessai, who CAN reach the full potential without the chant, can add layers onto the spell with further chants and incantations(as with Bankin, after casting Kin). If one could not reach the full potential without the chant, Aizen wouldn't have said he failed. He would have said he did the most that spell could do without the chant. But he didn't. He said he only brought out less than 1/3 of its potential, implying he could've brought out 100% of its potential if he had had the skill neccessary. Otherwise he wouldn't have been disappointed or said, "No, I failed."

In agreement there..

Ok.

Thats my fundamental difference with this..

Which doesn't make sense to me. . .


Ive even gone on and made a list stating as such..

PEEP GAME (http://forums.bleachexile.com/showthread.php?p=1575905#post1575905)

Ok, cool. In agreement for the most part. . .

All I can site at this moment to support that argument is the Bleach Wiki.. I'll choose to leave it at that for now..

I hope you're not implying thats a really credible source. . . Those are Bleach fans like you and me, and its a Wiki. Wiki is satan to anything considered a source, lol. Considering what has been shown and stated, I think what I said makes more sense and agrees with the manga. But I'm willing to listen to what others say about Kido, and how it works. That is our main difference here. We don't agree on exactly how Kido functions in the first place. . .

[ExStark]

Wow nice arguments about the fight but I would say Aizen and Tousen only because not everything has been revealed about them (and I like them more) but the same can be said about Urahara and Tessai. Not much is really known on the both of them so you can't really assume who would win. Though the arguments do bring up good points on how it would go. I just simply want to know if the time kidou wouldn't work that well maybe do to a time period or such do to how much rietsu it would possibly take to actually stop time itself. Anyway I think perhaps all of you should just relax and chill about it cause I doubt I fight as cool as this would possible happen and thefore could only be won based on your own opinion. If that makes any semse at all to anyone.

[UnadvisedGoose]

Oh we're chill. I respect Mikeno enough to assume he's not actually getting offended or worked up over this. Its a friendly debate, between all parties involved I think. :smile:

[smacharia8]

(b) I'd say full strength Byakuya could have blocked that with his bare hand. We actually already saw Byakuya use his bare hands against bankai Ichigo, it drew blood, but then Ichigo wasn't completely exhausted and Byakuya wasn't at full energy. Renji easily with his zan. Hanatarou... cmon you're just being tongue in cheek there aren't you.Now that's what I call a load of bull. Even Renji can injure patched Zaraki with a sealed sword, I believe...so to say Byakuya can stop Ichigo's sword with his hand is just...a very bad idea my friend.

Ichigo wasn't even swinging hard when Byakuya caught the sword; he was leisurely thrusting it forward. With Aizen he was CHARGING against the same man who stopped Renji's shikai attack like Nell did Noitora's cero, and was unaffected by that last resort "raining fang" attack.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/174/

Now if you get the point then stop comparing Aizen to mister pink!! :yelling:

[Mikeno]

My point is when against Byakuya he was near full energy, against Aizen near empty, having jsut had to take on Byakuya. As for importance of swordplay? That's going to be useful against someone who specialises in Kidou. Devestating kidou at that.


That rationale is seriously lacking.. Tessai for all intensive purposes should have a zan.. so on the strength of that I believe he would be so inclined to use it.. I hope its not your idea that Tessai will just keep spamming kidou spells for the win in the midst of Aizen employing his shikai and subsequently if needed bankai..? Swordplay would be a factor in this bought.. but my swordplay reference wasnt intended to show the implications it would have on this bought but to show the reiatsu that Aizen has at his disposal..

If Koma hadn't been distracted/ put off and had been prepared for the coming attack I doubt it would have been nearly as affective as it was even in it's 1/3 state.

Why would you believe that..? if Komamura was trapped in the spell regardless of how it was accomplished the same amount of damage would have occured.. If you dont believe Aizen would have had the opening necessary without the delay say that then..

I don't think alot of people fully understand the levels of power that were released in that explosion. Not just the FULL extent of Ichigo's shinigami powers (both tamed and untamed, like a freaking reservoir full) but also the FULL powers of his Hollow as well, that even the Vaizard had trouble against. And Tessai is right next to it, and comes out unscathed.

I dont think we can justly quantify the level of power that was displayed in that explosion.. we can only speculate.. is it comparable to that of a direct cero blast.. gran rey cero blast.. Renjis baboon cannon.. Cheat-code Ishida arrow blast.. Im not sure.. but I wouldnt put it in my top 5 of the most impressive displays of energy purge.. impressive that he was able to withstand it.. but its not anything I would think makes him competitive to Aizen..

Yeah sure, but Tessai is Captain of the kidou corps and a bonafide kidou master, compared to say momo being called a "master". If you've "mastered" something that means it comes to you easily and naturally.


Sure perhaps.. but easily and naturally doesnt denote being able to perform all forms of kidou at 100% capacity without the chant..

Okay... here's where I'm starting to get confused... Not ONCE does Isane look like she's talking to anybody other than Unohana who's standing next to her. She's evidently reading co-ordinates from the circle in the ground, co-ordinates which are tracking the location of Aizen's reiatsu.

I believe contact refers to locate.. not communicate.. I myself was confused at first until I did a little re-freshener.. as to its application it gives co-ordinates on a map not a direct visual so pin-pointing an exact (exact being an area small enough to give this kidou any kind of battle effectiveness) location is not in the realm of its ability.. when used Isane is given a map of the co-ordinates of Soukyoku Hill not an image of Aizens exact proximity on the hill..

From the Bleach Wiki 58. Kakushitsuijaku (摑趾追雀, Summoning of the Tracking Sparrows) — Tracks and locates any spiritual force the user focuses on. To activate it, the user must draw a circle on the ground, cut into four parts with a specific character in each. The incantation animates the circle, causing various numbers to appear within until the specific set is found. The number set seems to be a variation on longitude and latitude.

Erm.. I already stated this..

The Bleach wiki on Tenteikuura: 77. Tenteikūra (天挺空羅, Heavenly Rickshaws in Silken Air) — Transmits messages to anyone within Soul Society. In addition to reciting the spell, the user must draw specific markings on their arms, which are animated by the spell to convey the messages.

Yes thank you Pumpkin.. I was already well aware of this technique though..

I think you're getting the two mixed up.

No I didnt confuse the 2.. I was already aware of bakudou 77.. I just misinterpreted the definition of bakudou 58s ability in its entirety..

My suggested tactics, assuming Aizen is illusioning himself and other things up, is that Tessai uses Timestop. Inside the timestop he uses #58 to track Aizen's reiatsu, allowing him essentially to "see" through Aizen's illusions because he cannot hide his reiatsu with illusions, so if Aizen appears to be over there by the rock or something, yet #58 is telling Tessai that the co-ordinates don't match up and in actual fact he's over there by that tree, then it's evidently an illusion.

Erm so Tessai is just going to repetitively dole out the forbidden time-stop kidou and then use a kidou thats intended use is to track reiatsu over great distances until Aizen submits..? Thats the gist of it am I right..? LOL you are making this up as you go along huh..? Now you cite the timestop kidou as giving Tessai the time it takes to perform bakudou 58 which as has been stated offers no real combat effectiveness to begin with..

Nah, if Uki is roughly 2000 years old, then a "long time" for him I would theorise as being upwards of 250 years. So I'd say on top of TBTP Tessai is somewhere between another 500 and 200 years old. I wasn't attempting to infer that he was as old as Uki.

Well I know you werent particularly stating he was of the same age as Uki Im just simply stating that you cant possibly know how long a great deal of time would be to Uki Mr. Psychiatrist.. I know you feel Im being particularly difficult on this topic but last they met could have been anywhere from a couple of months to centuries in betweenst their meetings.. cant really tell.. although I myself believe Tessai to have a great deal of age on him aswell if its any consolation..

But the level of power is comparable. They both have shinigami powers and at those times were being overridden by hollow entities, so I don't see how you can't compare them. Ichigo was insanely strong, as Hollow Kensei appeared to be.

I think somewhere along the lines this particular argument took a wrong turn at Albuquerque..

Mikeno = Red
Pumpkin= Blue

Well Aizen wasnt trying to use the FULL extent of the spells power.. if that was his intention then he would have used the incantation..


So you're saying that in order to utilise the spell's full power he would have to use the chant? Whereas Hacchi, nevermind Tessai, can execute a full powered #99 Kin chantless? And he did this at VC level, 90 years prior to Aizen failing his at captain level.


Where does it say that the #99 Kin was at its full power..?


I say it was flawless because it did more than it was meant to, without the incantation having been used. Compare it to the first stage of the #99 Kin that Tessai uses on Ichigo. He uses the full incantation and it binds Ichigo's arms together. At this point ichigo does not have shinigami powers.


When Kensei's inner hollow took over he didnt appear to use any shinigami powers.. not to say he didnt have them.. but I doubt it.. so I think Ichigo not having shinigami powers ATT had little to do with nothing as to his overall power in full hollow mode.. Hichigo and Ichigo's inner hollow seem like two different entities altogether..


But the level of power is comparable. They both have shinigami powers and at those times were being overridden by hollow entities, so I don't see how you can't compare them. Ichigo was insanely strong, as Hollow Kensei appeared to be.


Now if you looked through the progression of the argument I was answering your proposal that if Hachi can do it to full power without chant then it reasons that Tessai can and that would reason if it were the case buts its not the case.. If Hachi were able to perform the #99 perfectly without chant then why was it necessary for him to perform the chant on bakudou #75.. you were using Hachi's feats of kidou to underscore Tessai's abilities.. and though Hachis feats are impressive its not been shown whether his chantless kidou's are to the max power.. Now as for Hollow-mode Kensei and Ichigo you made it seem as if Hollow Kensi was somehow doubled in power because he was fomerly a shinigami and I said I thought that Kensei did not retain any of his shinigami power and thus was comparable to what form Ichigo displayed in the earlier arc.. You used that instance to compare what Hachi did to hollow Kensei to what Tessai did to Ichigo..


And it was effective and worked exactly like it needed to. So flawless as far as i'm concerned.

{-_-'}..

Yeah, there's the disagreement. If someone has mastered it I believe they can achieve 100% or damned well near without the chant. Then they can add increased effectiveness on top of that with chants.

Oh so we do disagree here.. I dont get how 100% can be considered 100% if there is yet another degree to go.. there is a cap to these spells cant just infinitely increase its powers 100 fold over 100%.. we're not multiplying apples and then finding the percentage increase here folks..




Rofl. Bring it!

O its been broughten :nono: >>> :shifty: lmaooooo..

Yes but I was just saying that thats MOSTLY what he has going for him. . . Other than that he hasn't really done anything I wouldn't put past Shunsui or Ukitake. I was using Yama as an example of someone who would crush him if he didn't have his illusions. . . But Yama could crush the VAST majority of characters in Bleach, lol.


So you think Shun and Uki capable of stopping Koms shikai with nothing more than their hand..? thumb and index finger to be exact.. HHHMMM interesting.. and yes Yama can fry characters on but a whim.. but thats an entirely different discussion.. heh..

What does the bolded even mean? Why would he not be going for 100%? Of course thats what he was trying to do, right? And if the spell has its own potential for damage, not what Aizen can bring out of it for damage, then I would assume that he was in fact trying to use all of that potential. It doesn't even make sense for him not to, and then say he failed. . .

Well like Ive said time and time again chanting the spell goes a long way towards using it at 100% capability.. He also goes on to state that "its difficult to control hadou 90 after all.." He didnt say it was difficult for him he gave the general sense of its difficulty lending further credence that hadou are possibly more difficult than bakudou or maybe just that particular hadou..

Whoa now. . . When have I put words in your mouth ever lol? I was obviously answering a post YOU made, which I assume to be your own words. . .

Ehem..


I said..

Im sure Tessai can use every kido up to level 99.. but what Im not sure of is if he can use everyone to full power without the incantation..

You're response..

So you're saying that someone who can manipulate the fabrics of SPACE AND TIME with Kido, can't perform the 99 levels of combat applicable Kido?

I know these mountains of text can be quite a bit to keep up with.. so all is forgiven..

And this is not what he have been told and shown. What we were told and shown is that the full potential CAN be reached by the user WITHOUT the chant, but only if they have the skill and power neccessary to pull it off, which gets increasingly more difficult as you go up in number. That is what has been shown.

Please indulge my ignorance to your sources of information

However, as pumpkin stated, people like Tessai, who CAN reach the full potential without the chant, can add layers onto the spell with further chants and incantations(as with Bankin, after casting Kin). If one could not reach the full potential without the chant, Aizen wouldn't have said he failed. He would have said he did the most that spell could do without the chant. But he didn't. He said he only brought out less than 1/3 of its potential, implying he could've brought out 100% of its potential if he had had the skill neccessary. Otherwise he wouldn't have been disappointed or said, "No, I failed."

Well he didnt seem disappointed as you say.. and I believe I already addressed this issue.. further up the wall of text..

I hope you're not implying thats a really credible source. . . Those are Bleach fans like you and me, and its a Wiki. Wiki is satan to anything considered a source, lol. Considering what has been shown and stated, I think what I said makes more sense and agrees with the manga. But I'm willing to listen to what others say about Kido, and how it works.

Well your compadre in this discussion Pumpkin saw fit to cite from Bleach wiki.. lmao.. why not..

That is our main difference here. We don't agree on exactly how Kido functions in the first place. . .

Agreed..


I just simply want to know if the time kidou wouldn't work that well maybe do to a time period or such do to how much rietsu it would possibly take to actually stop time itself.

Dont forget as well its effective radius or scope and whether there is an effective kidou counter..

Anyway I think perhaps all of you should just relax and chill about it cause I doubt I fight as cool as this would possible happen and thefore could only be won based on your own opinion. If that makes any semse at all to anyone.

Sage advice.. although I have many sustained facts to go with many reasonable opinions.. heh.. lol..

Oh we're chill. I respect Mikeno enough to assume he's not actually getting offended or worked up over this. Its a friendly debate, between all parties involved I think. :smile:

I hope no-one confuses this banter amongst us as hostile in anyway.. its all respect and alot of my words should be considered in jest..

Unadvised and Pumpkin I see yall homies.. lol..

Now that's what I call a load of bull. Even Renji can injure patched Zaraki with a sealed sword, I believe...so to say Byakuya can stop Ichigo's sword with his hand is just...a very bad idea my friend.

Ichigo wasn't even swinging hard when Byakuya caught the sword; he was leisurely thrusting it forward. With Aizen he was CHARGING against the same man who stopped Renji's shikai attack like Nell did Noitora's cero, and was unaffected by that last resort "raining fang" attack.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/174/


Tabernacle..

[UnadvisedGoose]

So you think Shun and Uki capable of stopping Koms shikai with nothing more than their hand..? thumb and index finger to be exact.. HHHMMM interesting.. and yes Yama can fry characters on but a whim.. but thats an entirely different discussion.. heh..

Meh, Im just saying I wouldn't be surprised at all if that were the case, at this point. So yeah, sure, quote me on it, lol.

Well like Ive said time and time again chanting the spell goes a long way towards using it at 100% capability.. He also goes on to state that "its difficult to control hadou 90 after all.." He didnt say it was difficult for him he gave the general sense of its difficulty lending further credence that hadou are possibly more difficult than bakudou or maybe just that particular hadou..

It is difficult, even so for him. Thats why he used the words "he failed". He wouldn't have said it like that if he couldn't have used the full potential without the chant. He would have said "I only used 1/3 of the power the of the spell that one can achieve without the chant. . ." or something like that. Instead, he said, "No, I failed. I ONLY( <-- this word is important) managed to utilize less than 1/3 of the spells potential damage". He just wouldn't have said it like that if he didn't think he could bring out the full potential without the chant. And I would think Aizen knows enough about Kido to be considered knowledgeable and accurate. These comments he makes are the basis, directly from the manga, of the way I think Kido works. And it makes sense that way.

Ehem..


I said..



You're response..



I know these mountains of text can be quite a bit to keep up with.. so all is forgiven..

Ah, I simply forgot to put "without the chant" on the end of my last sentece in what you quoted me on. So, as far as that goes, I didn't put words in your mouth, just forgot to take a few out of my own, lol.

Please indulge my ignorance to your sources of information

Refer to the Aizen/90's hadou wall'o'text. It states my source, directly from the manga. I might be able to find others, but that one is more sufficient than anything else provided. And I'm too lazy to look for others, lol.

Well he didnt seem disappointed as you say.. and I believe I already addressed this issue.. further up the wall of text..

No, he did seem disappointed. Hence his own words. Just because he didn't change his facial expression doesn't mean he wasn't disappointed, and hadn't planned on using the full power of the spell. Again, I explained this in the wall'o'text above. . .

Well your compadre in this discussion Pumpkin saw fit to cite from Bleach wiki.. lmao.. why not..

Lol, well as long as the wiki can be sited/sourced directly from the source material/manga, then fine. But what I was saying can't be. . .

I hope no-one confuses this banter amongst us as hostile in anyway.. its all respect and alot of my words should be considered in jest..

Unadvised and Pumpkin I see yall homies.. lol..

Nah, we cool. :blink:

[pumpkin13]

We guuuurd. Personally I would advise all English students involved in debating teams and whatnot to spend a good coupla months in the battle pits, haha, seriously it really teaches you how to attempt to deconstruct your opponents argument bit by bit and use sources to support your own argument. BE Battle Pit as compulsory teaching in all schools!

That rationale is seriously lacking.. Tessai for all intensive purposes should have a zan.. so on the strength of that I believe he would be so inclined to use it.. I hope its not your idea that Tessai will just keep spamming kidou spells for the win in the midst of Aizen employing his shikai and subsequently if needed bankai..? Swordplay would be a factor in this bought.. but my swordplay reference wasnt intended to show the implications it would have on this bought but to show the reiatsu that Aizen has at his disposal..

You haven't seen Aizen's bankai, and I haven't seen the abilities of Tessai's zan, i'm just sticking with what we have realistic amounts of evidence on man.

Why would you believe that..? if Komamura was trapped in the spell regardless of how it was accomplished the same amount of damage would have occured.. If you dont believe Aizen would have had the opening necessary without the delay say that then..


Had he been prepared and saw the attack coming he could have either gotten the hell out of the way (ie fell back to a more agreeable distance of engagement when he saw Aizen shunpo, had he shunpo'd and not used his shikai) or alternatively whipped out his bankai, the majority of bankais from what I remember off the top of my head being near instantaneous in their deployment. The giant crouching over him guarding him from the majority of the kidou on most sides would have massively reduced the impact of the kidou. Or, the giant would have dissipated the effect area of the coffin "sarcophagus" by being too big.

I dont think we can justly quantify the level of power that was displayed in that explosion.. we can only speculate.. is it comparable to that of a direct cero blast.. gran rey cero blast.. Renjis baboon cannon.. Cheat-code Ishida arrow blast.. Im not sure.. but I wouldnt put it in my top 5 of the most impressive displays of energy purge.. impressive that he was able to withstand it.. but its not anything I would think makes him competitive to Aizen..

Yeah visually it might not have been as epic as some blasts we've seen, althoug i will say that alot of the time it seems to be more the dissipating energy from a blast, or rubble and force clouds thrown up by blasts that are depicted, whereas that was a full scale explosion as opposed to a blast and it affecting the surroundings and throwing up rubble and dust waves.

I believe contact refers to locate.. not communicate.. I myself was confused at first until I did a little re-freshener.. as to its application it gives co-ordinates on a map not a direct visual so pin-pointing an exact (exact being an area small enough to give this kidou any kind of battle effectiveness) location is not in the realm of its ability.. when used Isane is given a map of the co-ordinates of Soukyoku Hill not an image of Aizens exact proximity on the hill..

Judging from the video you posted, it doesn't give a map-like images, it just spins up numbers, co-ordinates, which Isane has to herself identify as being in a particular place. If Isane can read co-ordinates without a map then I should think Tessai can to. As for his exact proximity on the hill, well i doubt she's going to say he's exactly forty meters away from the left soukyouku stand and twenty meters away from the northern most edge of the hill. She'd just say (which she DOES), he's on soukyouku hill. She's already identified his exact location from the co-ordinates.

Erm so Tessai is just going to repetitively dole out the forbidden time-stop kidou and then use a kidou thats intended use is to track reiatsu over great distances until Aizen submits..? Thats the gist of it am I right..? LOL you are making this up as you go along huh..? Now you cite the timestop kidou as giving Tessai the time it takes to perform bakudou 58 which as has been stated offers no real combat effectiveness to begin with..

He doesn't need to repetetively dole it out. He does timestop once. During the timestop he does #58. Upon locating aizen's co-ordinates, he can take some time to figure out exactly where those co-ordinates are. Once that has been achieved, he blasts out some high level kidou at the point of the co-ordinates. End timestop. #58 is not specifically stated in the manga to only work over long distances. If it DOES only work over long distances, Tessai uses his matter shift to take him and Urahara elsewhere, then do #58.

That's all i'm gonna tackle for tonight, i have an early start tomorrow. Yeah I'll use stuff from Bleach Wiki, if it's just a list of stuff and is cited (as the majority of that kidou is) then I see no problem with it. There IS stuff on the Bleach Wiki that I highly disagree with, and comes across more as people's own personal oppinions and interpretations of the manga which have been skewed somehow. The page on Yama alone reveals some heretical input from Bleach "fans" (ie heretics, that must be PURGED!), they include information from the filler arcs along with the canon material without deliniating between canon and non-canon, but as far as the kidou lists are concerned, it's all cited so it's good as far as I go.

Now that's what I call a load of bull. Even Renji can injure patched Zaraki with a sealed sword, I believe...so to say Byakuya can stop Ichigo's sword with his hand is just...a very bad idea my friend.

Ichigo wasn't even swinging hard when Byakuya caught the sword; he was leisurely thrusting it forward. With Aizen he was CHARGING against the same man who stopped Renji's shikai attack like Nell did Noitora's cero, and was unaffected by that last resort "raining fang" attack.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/174/

Now if you get the point then stop comparing Aizen to mister pink!! :yelling:


The centrifugal nature of the force of a stab being compressed into an effect area roughly an inch in length and a couple of millimetres wide (ie the dimensions of the sword blade looking at it from the top down) would actually have more pressure behind it that a sword swipe, charging or not. In a swipe the energy put into the swipe is spread out along the length of the blade, decreasing the pressure at anyone point along the blade comparable to that of the tip of a sword. He wasn't "leisurely" thrusting it forwards. He was attacking with intent to injure, the same amount of intent he would have had against Aizen.

[Paragon]

pumpkin13, i've combined both your posts together. Try not to double post again. It may result in me deleting the whole entire post if it happens again and you don't want that.

Oh and based on evidence so far i say Aizen and Tousen take this. :)

[pumpkin13]

sorry P, meant to do that after i'd typed it and forgot. ^_~

[Mikeno]

Meh, Im just saying I wouldn't be surprised at all if that were the case, at this point. So yeah, sure, quote me on it, lol.

Without zan I would.. but anyway the comparison is to Urahara and Tessai neither of whom I put on Shunsui's or Ukitake's level to begin with let alone Aizen..

It is difficult, even so for him. Thats why he used the words "he failed". He wouldn't have said it like that if he couldn't have used the full potential without the chant. He would have said "I only used 1/3 of the power the of the spell that one can achieve without the chant. . ." or something like that. Instead, he said, "No, I failed. I ONLY( <-- this word is important) managed to utilize less than 1/3 of the spells potential damage". He just wouldn't have said it like that if he didn't think he could bring out the full potential without the chant. And I would think Aizen knows enough about Kido to be considered knowledgeable and accurate. These comments he makes are the basis, directly from the manga, of the way I think Kido works. And it makes sense that way.

The thing is he said he was only able to bring about less than 1/3 of its potential.. what Im saying is him trying to achieve 100% cant be taken from that statement.. for all we know 1/2 of its potential being brought about would have been labeled a success.. and judging from Komamuras disposition afterwards that right there would have been overkill.. lmao.. also Pumpkin would have me believe that since Aizen is known for deception nothing that comes out of his mouth should be believed.. in accordance with that logic Im not sure how we would be able to sustain a point either way..

Ah, I simply forgot to put "without the chant" on the end of my last sentece in what you quoted me on. So, as far as that goes, I didn't put words in your mouth, just forgot to take a few out of my own, lol.

yeah you did put words.. but like I said all is forgiven for I know that was not your intention..

Refer to the Aizen/90's hadou wall'o'text. It states my source, directly from the manga. I might be able to find others, but that one is more sufficient than anything else provided. And I'm too lazy to look for others, lol.

you seem to think you can interpret his words as a basis for him trying to deliver 100% of the kidous power.. I say you cant.. and its also my belief that he wasnt shooting for its full power because of how I believe kidou works..

No, he did seem disappointed. Hence his own words. Just because he didn't change his facial expression doesn't mean he wasn't disappointed, and hadn't planned on using the full power of the spell. Again, I explained this in the wall'o'text above. . .

Im not sure how long you have followed shonen anime/manga.. but usually when a villain uses self-deprecating statements about their abilities its usually to downplay their immense aptitude conversely.. and this is actually not exclusive to just shonen.. in sources of material that way of thinking is used..

Lol, well as long as the wiki can be sited/sourced directly from the source material/manga, then fine. But what I was saying can't be. . .

LOL.. well then it cant be substantiated either way..

Nah, we cool. :blink:

You kno thiSSS maaaaaaaan..




We guuuurd. Personally I would advise all English students involved in debating teams and whatnot to spend a good coupla months in the battle pits, haha, seriously it really teaches you how to attempt to deconstruct your opponents argument bit by bit and use sources to support your own argument. BE Battle Pit as compulsory teaching in all schools!

Worth 5 credits towards graduation.. lmao..

You haven't seen Aizen's bankai, and I haven't seen the abilities of Tessai's zan, i'm just sticking with what we have realistic amounts of evidence on man.

Well like I said the whole zan argument started from trying to show Aizens reiatsu.. he has attained a level high enough when parrying opponents zans it is no longer necessary to use his..

Had he been prepared and saw the attack coming he could have either gotten the hell out of the way (ie fell back to a more agreeable distance of engagement when he saw Aizen shunpo, had he shunpo'd and not used his shikai) or alternatively whipped out his bankai, the majority of bankais from what I remember off the top of my head being near instantaneous in their deployment. The giant crouching over him guarding him from the majority of the kidou on most sides would have massively reduced the impact of the kidou. Or, the giant would have dissipated the effect area of the coffin "sarcophagus" by being too big.

Well tahnks for finally breaking it down.. because before you said it wouldnt be as effective as if the opening was necessary for the kidou to be performed not that the opening was necessary for the kidou to connect now I see where you were coming from.. but in the end I say to that how does that count against Aizen that hes able to create an inescapable illusion..?

Yeah visually it might not have been as epic as some blasts we've seen, althoug i will say that alot of the time it seems to be more the dissipating energy from a blast, or rubble and force clouds thrown up by blasts that are depicted, whereas that was a full scale explosion as opposed to a blast and it affecting the surroundings and throwing up rubble and dust waves.

Sorry still not in my fav 5.. lol..

Judging from the video you posted, it doesn't give a map-like images, it just spins up numbers, co-ordinates, which Isane has to herself identify as being in a particular place. If Isane can read co-ordinates without a map then I should think Tessai can to. As for his exact proximity on the hill, well i doubt she's going to say he's exactly forty meters away from the left soukyouku stand and twenty meters away from the northern most edge of the hill. She'd just say (which she DOES), he's on soukyouku hill. She's already identified his exact location from the co-ordinates.

Im sorry from what you said I can only see how that would make it more difficult to pin-down Aizens exact location.. also Soukyoku Hill wasnt his exact location it was his general location.. you do remember the hills immense size right..? Face it that kidou is irrelevant in this discussion..

He doesn't need to repetetively dole it out. He does timestop once. During the timestop he does #58. Upon locating aizen's co-ordinates, he can take some time to figure out exactly where those co-ordinates are. Once that has been achieved, he blasts out some high level kidou at the point of the co-ordinates. End timestop. #58 is not specifically stated in the manga to only work over long distances. If it DOES only work over long distances, Tessai uses his matter shift to take him and Urahara elsewhere, then do #58.

We dont know how one is affected by timestop as its only been used on motionless bodies in a tight area.. and seeing as you keep throwing bakudou 58 out there it leads me to believe that you think Aizen would be of some distance away.. What we do know is that it takes a fairly long time to summon.. I see that as the spells downfall.. in a battle against anyone not named Ganju..

That's all i'm gonna tackle for tonight, i have an early start tomorrow. Yeah I'll use stuff from Bleach Wiki, if it's just a list of stuff and is cited (as the majority of that kidou is) then I see no problem with it. There IS stuff on the Bleach Wiki that I highly disagree with, and comes across more as people's own personal oppinions and interpretations of the manga which have been skewed somehow. The page on Yama alone reveals some heretical input from Bleach "fans" (ie heretics, that must be PURGED!), they include information from the filler arcs along with the canon material without deliniating between canon and non-canon, but as far as the kidou lists are concerned, it's all cited so it's good as far as I go.

No problem here its just one of those sources that should be taken with a grain of salt..

The centrifugal nature of the force of a stab being compressed into an effect area roughly an inch in length and a couple of millimetres wide (ie the dimensions of the sword blade looking at it from the top down) would actually have more pressure behind it that a sword swipe, charging or not. In a swipe the energy put into the swipe is spread out along the length of the blade, decreasing the pressure at anyone point along the blade comparable to that of the tip of a sword. He wasn't "leisurely" thrusting it forwards. He was attacking with intent to injure, the same amount of intent he would have had against Aizen.

All of that deductive reasoning was for naught.. if only for the fact that you introduced your opinion.. its obvious that there was more force behing the blow trying to be dealt to Aizen than Byakuya at the time.. that is visually apparent.. albeit full power or not..

[pumpkin13]

When Tessai is involved in a fight, Kidou is anything but irrelevent.

Inescapable illusion: It wasn't that he created an inescapable illusion, it was that he caught Koma off guard with it, which stunned him and opened him right up.

I meant she'd already identified his exact location within the area on top of sgkyu hill, but seeing as it's one big area anyway, there's no need to go into any further detail than "at sgkyu". If you're freinds looking for someone, and you know where this someone is, they happen to be standing on the sidelines of the football pitch of Stadio Olympico in Rome, and you know he's standing in the dugout of the home team, are you going to go into all that detail to tell you're friend? If you're in another country, you'd likely just say "He's in Rome" if you're in Rome, you'd likely just say "He's at the Stadio Olympico", there's no further need to go into any more detail than that.

[Mikeno]

When Tessai is involved in a fight, Kidou is anything but irrelevent.

Timestop is entirely irrelevant.. IT TAKES TOO LONG.. AREA OF EFFECT IS UNKOWN (seriously doubt its radius or scope is longer than a few meters).. also as well you still havent found a reliable complement to this kidou where they can track Aizens movements..

Inescapable illusion: It wasn't that he created an inescapable illusion, it was that he caught Koma off guard with it, which stunned him and opened him right up.

In the end Koma had no defense against it whether it was revealed to him earlier or not.. and still how is this a negative against Aizen in the first place..?

I meant she'd already identified his exact location within the area on top of sgkyu hill, but seeing as it's one big area anyway, there's no need to go into any further detail than "at sgkyu". If you're freinds looking for someone, and you know where this someone is, they happen to be standing on the sidelines of the football pitch of Stadio Olympico in Rome, and you know he's standing in the dugout of the home team, are you going to go into all that detail to tell you're friend? If you're in another country, you'd likely just say "He's in Rome" if you're in Rome, you'd likely just say "He's at the Stadio Olympico", there's no further need to go into any more detail than that.

This is a case of seriously reaching or terrible reference.. Im thinking a bit of both.. one the Soukyoku Hill in no way resembles a football stadium.. and two youve gone on to state it yourself that it only displays co-ordinates nothing else.. how is this information going to be proven effective in this situation..? Its not is the correct answer..

[UnadvisedGoose]

The thing is he said he was only able to bring about less than 1/3 of its potential.. what Im saying is him trying to achieve 100% cant be taken from that statement.. for all we know 1/2 of its potential being brought about would have been labeled a success.. and judging from Komamuras disposition afterwards that right there would have been overkill.. lmao.. also Pumpkin would have me believe that since Aizen is known for deception nothing that comes out of his mouth should be believed.. in accordance with that logic Im not sure how we would be able to sustain a point either way..

On the bolded, I don't see how it can't be interpretted that way. But I suppose thats just a difference of opinion.

you seem to think you can interpret his words as a basis for him trying to deliver 100% of the kidous power.. I say you cant.. and its also my belief that he wasnt shooting for its full power because of how I believe kidou works..

This is more of the same really, lol. I just don't see how one can't get that he didn't try to deliver 100% from that. Its in the way he acted and the words he said. But I am probably being a bit close-minded. But I still just can't wrap my head around it not implying(heavily implying) that he was aiming to bring about the full potential of that spell. Sorry. :/

Oh well, it seems we have reached an impasse(mostly on how Kido works in general). Neither of us will be moved, I believe( I know I won't, unfortunately). So lets just let this lie. And I'm glad we're both mature enough to be friends and all. :amused:

To make myself clear, I wasn't even arguing for this thread in my last two or three posts. At that point I was trying to prove Tessai's uberness. :love: I still don't know who I think would win, and we have not even close to enough info to speculate, even remotely accurately, as of now.

[Spectre]

I think Tousen's Bankai cant stop someone from using Kidou. So if Tessai could land a hit on Kaname's Bankai will disappear and wha-la. Non stop Kidou casting until the 2 are finished. Besides, even if Aizen and Kaname do try to stop them Kisuke's Blood Shield will protect Tessai.

[Mikeno]

I just don't see how one can't get that he didn't try to deliver 100% from that. Its in the way he acted and the words he said. But I am probably being a bit close-minded. But I still just can't wrap my head around it not implying(heavily implying) that he was aiming to bring about the full potential of that spell. Sorry. :/

He made no mention of trying to deliver 100% of the spells potential.. He even stated as such the difficulty of that spell.. so I dont believe he could have even expected to deliver 100% with regard to how you believe kidou works (as I have stated that the chant is required).. But I am not oblivious to your theory on how kidou works and as such do not absolve myself the probability of being wrong in that aspect.. but as for Aizens intent one cannot be certain of..

Oh well, it seems we have reached an impasse(mostly on how Kido works in general). Neither of us will be moved, I believe( I know I won't, unfortunately). So lets just let this lie. And I'm glad we're both mature enough to be friends and all. :amused:

Oh but of course.. but It never was my intent to sway you (for the simple fact that you question whether Aizen would defeat Ura and Tess leads me to believe you are lost in this debate) but to break down your argument and perhaps persuade others who read my posts to side with my reasoning.. but our arguments can be laid to rest.. IN THIS DEBATE!!! lol..

NO.. WE COULD NEVER BE FRIENDS.. I WANT TO e-CHOKE YOU RIGHT NOW EEEERRRRRRRRR..!!! lmao.. naa..

A debate could never get me heated enough to make enemies of friends..

To make myself clear, I wasn't even arguing for this thread in my last two or three posts. At that point I was trying to prove Tessai's uberness. :love: I still don't know who I think would win, and we have not even close to enough info to speculate, even remotely accurately, as of now.

Aizen.. Tousen would be unnecessary..

But since seeing is believing I will leave this discussion (unless otherwise goaded back of course) with a few parting vids of Aizens feats..

Aizen leisurely pwning those in his wayhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWtMD_HfobILmao at when Ichigo's "resolve" anthem abruptly cuts off when Aizen catches his zan.. lmao..

Aizen reiatsu choking Grimmjowhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anBI_JSpcYUSorry couldnt find a shorter vid.. lmao at "We're under attack.. but let us have some tea first.."

Aizen explaining kyoukasuigetsu's effect in full detailhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuQ05c5fGaw

[TwelveGauge]

I said that urahara and tessai would win, if only because tessai is actually able to cast 90+ hado properly. Not to mention Urahara is crazy intense as well and would probably develop a way to see past Aizen's illusions.

Not to mention I think Aizen thinks WAY to much of himself and needs to be cut down to size.

[pumpkin13]

@Mikeno: You stated that the timestop takes along time to chant. In response to that; er... what grounds do you base that fact on? Tessai would tell Urahara to cover his ears just as much if he was going to use it chantless as if he was going to do the full incantation. Remember chantless still requires the number (in this case the category: "Forbiddon Kidou" would likely replace the number) and the name to be stated. So I really don't see how you've come to the conclusion that the time stop takes along time to perform.

I'm sorry man, i've tried to explain how he'd use #58, get the coordinates of Aizen's whereabouts then use those coordinates to his advantage, whether its over a small scale or large scale area it doesn't matter, the co-ordinates are still going to pinpoint an exact location, and if Isane knows the co-ordinates for Soukouky off the back of her head then I would surmise that Tessai can make reasonable estimates of where the coordinates are in position to his own. If you can't see how someone could use that to their advantage then i'm done with it. I'm quite certain he could (all during timestop remember, i'm not suggesting he do this whilst Aizen's walking around freely behind some illusions) though.

[vastroLordeIchigo]

you all are very naive im pretty sure yall didnt take into account that they are very aware of both of their powers so tousen is not even going to stand a chance and im pretty sure urahara has some way to counter aizens attack such as gigais or something

[pumpkin13]

Leave the real debating to the big boys and go and play in your corner of noobishness.

[vastroLordeIchigo]

Leave the real debating to the big boys and go and play in your corner of noobishness.

NAIVE:nod:

[pumpkin13]

You, sir, are the naive one with comments such as "im pretty sure urahara has some way to counter aizens attack such as gigais or something" and no grounding or serious hypothetical analysis backing it up.

You also highly underestimate Tousen to say he wouldn't even stand a chance.

You also appear to have a very limited vocabulary with Naive being your favourite, as well as a poor creative responses or deconstructive analytical retorts.

[Mikeno]

@Mikeno: You stated that the timestop takes along time to chant. In response to that; er... what grounds do you base that fact on? Tessai would tell Urahara to cover his ears just as much if he was going to use it chantless as if he was going to do the full incantation. Remember chantless still requires the number (in this case the category: "Forbiddon Kidou" would likely replace the number) and the name to be stated. So I really don't see how you've come to the conclusion that the time stop takes along time to perform.

Well I am basing it on the fact that it was a 90s ranking kidou.. and for everyone outside of Aizen has required using a chant to perform one of those.. but of course it very well could be a lower ranking kidou 80s or lower.. and for that it very well might not need the chant with one who is of Tessai's capability.. but forbidden kidous still have numbers they are just forbidden..

I'm sorry man, i've tried to explain how he'd use #58, get the coordinates of Aizen's whereabouts then use those coordinates to his advantage, whether its over a small scale or large scale area it doesn't matter, the co-ordinates are still going to pinpoint an exact location, and if Isane knows the co-ordinates for Soukouky off the back of her head then I would surmise that Tessai can make reasonable estimates of where the coordinates are in position to his own. If you can't see how someone could use that to their advantage then i'm done with it. I'm quite certain he could (all during timestop remember, i'm not suggesting he do this whilst Aizen's walking around freely behind some illusions) though.

I do not think you quite get bakudou 58s unique purpose.. its to locate a spiritual signature over great distances with use of co-ordinates.. Not sure if you have ever used co-ordinates on a grid but unless they are given in thousandths decimal place or maybe even greater decimal place the reading wont be accurate enough to pinpoint something the size of a humanoid.. now you can reach a conclusion to where someone is in relation to lets say one rukongai district to the next one.. now after that assuming timestop takes precedence over great measures of land you can in turn comb over the most accurate reading you got from the grid which could quite possibly be an area the size of a district..

I actually think that it would make more sense to reverse the order of things and use bakudou 58 to find Aizens GENERAL location and then use timestop assuming it has a great area effect in the first place..

Now back to you thinking timestop requires no chant.. which it very well might not have required it.. which leads me to believe that the kidou may have been below 90s level (So far I have yet to see Tessai use 90s level chantless) which in that instance Aizen has already shown his proficiency to render kidous of this level and below ineffective..


Timestop if required chant: opening for attack until completion assuming it has an area effect large enough to justify its use..

Timestop if chant not required: has counters to it which render it ineffective even to the slightest degree..


Refresher (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.11/10-11/)
Refresher Continued (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.11/12/)
Refresher Concluded (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.11/13/)


In the end there are just too many wholes in your evaluation.. as clever as it was it was based on too many assumptions and could not stand to counter examination..


naive naive naive naive naive naive naive....... naive naive

O look how cute you wanna debate with the grown folks huh..? Sorry though you need a greater vocabulary that consists of other words besides naive Okay..?

Now if you would please go back and sit a kiddy table thanks..

[pumpkin13]

Hachigen uses #99 chantless. And we all know the difference in power and ability between VC and Captain level.

It doesn't say anywhere that #58 bakudou can only be applied over long distances.

When you say he has shown himself to be able to render kidous of this level and below ineffective, do you mean with Danku? How do you propose he apply danku to timestop? It's not a directed attack, and if it is it covers a larger area than danku. Timestop attacks the 4th dimension, not the 1st, 2nd or 3rd.

Your counter to timestop relies on Aizen using Danku, which prevents all kidou up to #88. Now whilst its possible that the forbiddo kidou are in the #80s, I personally don't think their numbered, otherwise we likely would have been told their numbers. Their natures are also completely different from the #88 hadou that Tessai fires at Aizen, so you counterattack relies on Aizen performing a bakudou which we don't know if it will go up to covering the theoretical number of the forbiddon kidou, and on top of that the natures being completely different from a directed energy attack (such as the hadou that Tessai fires), whether it would have any effect at all.

There are just as many holes in your argument as there are in mine.

[Seanc]

Aizen rapes everyone. Tousen is unnecessary.

[Mikeno]

Hachigen uses #99 chantless. And we all know the difference in power and ability between VC and Captain level.

I am so sorry I know I must seem a bit slow witted but could you please link me to Hachi using bakudou #99 chantless if you haven't already in midst of the other times I questioned its validity.. Im not sure hes even performed the kidou at all so if you can link me to him performing it in any way I would be impressed..

It doesn't say anywhere that #58 bakudou can only be applied over long distances.

*sigh* So it seems you have not had much dealings with co-ordinates and grids to understand its shortcomings when finding objects small in stature..

When you say he has shown himself to be able to render kidous of this level and below ineffective, do you mean with Danku? How do you propose he apply danku to timestop? It's not a directed attack, and if it is it covers a larger area than danku. Timestop attacks the 4th dimension, not the 1st, 2nd or 3rd.

Yes.. Danku would be suited well for this..
Why would the attack have to be directed..? Er..?
And you know its area of effect is larger than danku's because..? The voices told you so..? lmao come on man.. We have a visual on danku's size.. but we also have only seen the vizards effected by timestop who were roughly within 20 feet of one another..
Time and the 4th dimension are two separate things.. Time is included in the 4th dimension but does not define it.. if you knew the whole concept you would not be so quick to add it to your argument..

Your counter to timestop relies on Aizen using Danku, which prevents all kidou up to #88. Now whilst its possible that the forbiddo kidou are in the #80s, I personally don't think their numbered, otherwise we likely would have been told their numbers. Their natures are also completely different from the #88 hadou that Tessai fires at Aizen, so you counterattack relies on Aizen performing a bakudou which we don't know if it will go up to covering the theoretical number of the forbiddon kidou, and on top of that the natures being completely different from a directed energy attack (such as the hadou that Tessai fires), whether it would have any effect at all.

Well Aizen deemed it necessary to put a number on danku which is itself a forbidden kidou I have no reason to believe timestop and spacial transfer to be any different.. mind you we saw nothing of Tessai casting those particular kidou's..

There are just as many holes in your argument as there are in mine.

I would say I respectfully disagree.. Your holes require we assume too much.. As well you have not provided one piece of evidence supporting any of your beliefs.. I have on the other hand.. but judging from the course of this debate even that too is up to personal opinion..

[pumpkin13]

I am so sorry I know I must seem a bit slow witted but could you please link me to Hachi using bakudou #99 chantless if you haven't already in midst of the other times I questioned its validity.. Im not sure hes even performed the kidou at all so if you can link me to him performing it in any way I would be impressed..(a)



*sigh* So it seems you have not had much dealings with co-ordinates and grids to understand its shortcomings when finding objects small in stature..(b)



Yes.. Danku would be suited well for this..
Why would the attack have to be directed..? Er..?
And you know its area of effect is larger than danku's because..? The voices told you so..? lmao come on man.. We have a visual on danku's size.. but we also have only seen the vizards effected by timestop who were roughly within 20 feet of one another..(c)
Time and the 4th dimension are two separate things.. Time is included in the 4th dimension but does not define it.. if you knew the whole concept you would not be so quick to add it to your argument..



Well Aizen deemed it necessary to put a number on danku which is itself a forbidden kidou I have no reason to believe timestop and spacial transfer to be any different.. mind you we saw nothing of Tessai casting those particular kidou's..



I would say I respectfully disagree.. Your holes require we assume too much..(d) As well you have not provided one piece of evidence supporting any of your beliefs.. I have on the other hand.. but judging from the course of this debate even that too is up to personal opinion..

a) http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.09/08/ there is no chant. If there was it would be something like "Ten wheels left, of colour four and three, bind this soul with might, pierce its heart with gracious steeds that capture love and hate alike, bakudou #99 KIN!" just for example.

b) If you know the co-ordinates of the area well enough, and the co-ordinates go to a long enough decimel then you can pinpoint the exact location of something off by heart. Isane is a VC, Tessai is a captain so i would assume he would be better at such a thing than her. Ultimately then it comes down to where they are fighting. Failing that, simply skip the #58, just do timestop and AOE the entire area.

c) http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.11/18/ This shows the area of effect of the spatial displacement. Not the temporal stasis. You have no indication of how big the area of affect the time stop is. I argue as it affects time it does not affect an area. If it does then as you cannot see the top edge of the area of effect of the spatial so you cannot assume that it is only as big as what we see.

d) I do not think I am asking us to assume too much. Perhaps with the #58 coordinates, but that can be bypassed and Tessai can aoe the area during the temporal stasis. We've seen how big #88 is. We've seen how big #33 can be. And Aizen would be frozen during the temporal stasis so he wouldn't have the benefit of danku.

I'm still unsure how danku would protect against temporal stasis. I shall attempt to provide an analogy. Imagine Danku as a playing card (if the characters were roughly between an inch or a cm tall then I think it is fair to set Danku as the size of your average card for a deck of playing cards. Even if Temporal stasis does effect an designated area, which we have no evidence for, then imagine the playing card standing upright as a danku, and placing a bowel over it to represent the area of effect of temporal stasis. How does danku stop the bowel? Sorry, a rather obscure analogy but perhaps you will be able to see what I mean.

Danku stops a directed physical energy attack (in amor's case it prevents line of sight thus nulling Zommari's attack). Temporal Stasis is not a physical attack, it affects time, which is not a tangible construct.

[Mikeno]

a) http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.09/08/ there is no chant. If there was it would be something like "Ten wheels left, of colour four and three, bind this soul with might, pierce its heart with gracious steeds that capture love and hate alike, bakudou #99 KIN!" just for example.

Kudos to you.. I overlooked that bit of information.. I always saw kin as a part of bakudou #99 and not necessarily the bakudou itself.. but I concede..

b) If you know the co-ordinates of the area well enough, and the co-ordinates go to a long enough decimel then you can pinpoint the exact location of something off by heart. Isane is a VC, Tessai is a captain so i would assume he would be better at such a thing than her. Ultimately then it comes down to where they are fighting. Failing that, simply skip the #58, just do timestop and AOE the entire area.

Timestop and AOE hadou are actually a more sound combo..

c) http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.11/18/ This shows the area of effect of the spatial displacement. Not the temporal stasis. You have no indication of how big the area of affect the time stop is. I argue as it affects time it does not affect an area. If it does then as you cannot see the top edge of the area of effect of the spatial so you cannot assume that it is only as big as what we see.

Thats partly right.. considering the only known affected ones were the shinigami turned hollows.. In my eyes it could be some type of Time damping field Tessai puts over the soon to be vizards or its something that only has an affect on someone who sees or hears its summons..

d) I do not think I am asking us to assume too much. Perhaps with the #58 coordinates, but that can be bypassed and Tessai can aoe the area during the temporal stasis. We've seen how big #88 is. We've seen how big #33 can be. And Aizen would be frozen during the temporal stasis so he wouldn't have the benefit of danku.

That is assuming that all of your conditions of timestop are fact..

I'm still unsure how danku would protect against temporal stasis. I shall attempt to provide an analogy. Imagine Danku as a playing card (if the characters were roughly between an inch or a cm tall then I think it is fair to set Danku as the size of your average card for a deck of playing cards. Even if Temporal stasis does effect an designated area, which we have no evidence for, then imagine the playing card standing upright as a danku, and placing a bowel over it to represent the area of effect of temporal stasis. How does danku stop the bowel? Sorry, a rather obscure analogy but perhaps you will be able to see what I mean.

Danku was immense much more than the ratio you just mentioned.. Danku caused hadou #88 (grand in size itself) to swell around it to progress on the path it was flowing.. I understood the analogy.. Danku blocks the effects of other kidous not just those that tend to be destructive in nature.. the same goes for other kidous of defensive nature..

Does this also mean you have come to some sort of size limitation on timestop..? Its only been shown to have affected the vizards but you seem to think that theres no evidence showing its limitation.. well then conversely what are you going on that its effect is in fact infinite and affects all time..?

Danku stops a directed physical energy attack (in amor's case it prevents line of sight thus nulling Zommari's attack). Temporal Stasis is not a physical attack, it affects time, which is not a tangible construct.

Byakuya never said cutting line of site stopped his attacks.. he summoned danku when he figured out that amor was akin to kidou.. he found out by placing Rukia under bakudou #61 when she already had the mark on her.. kidou barriers stop kidou effects (not just destructive effects) depending on the strength of the particular kidou and wielder..

Now your only recourse is to argue timestop in fact not being kidou after all.. but of which there can be no sustainable pro or con argument..

I hope that the animators may shed some more light into the happenings of Urahara and Tessai saving the vizards.. maybe we will see the kidous sequence.. though some may scream filler or non-cannon..

[pumpkin13]

Danku was immense much more than the ratio you just mentioned.. Danku caused hadou #88 (grand in size itself) to swell around it to progress on the path it was flowing..(a) I understood the analogy.. Danku blocks the effects of other kidous not just those that tend to be destructive in nature(b).. the same goes for other kidous of defensive nature..

Does this also mean you have come to some sort of size limitation on timestop..? Its only been shown to have affected the vizards but you seem to think that theres no evidence showing its limitation.. well then conversely what are you going on that its effect is in fact infinite and affects all time..?(c)



Byakuya never said cutting line of site stopped his attacks.. he summoned danku when he figured out that amor was akin to kidou.. he found out by placing Rukia under bakudou #61 when she already had the mark on her.. kidou barriers stop kidou effects (not just destructive effects) depending on the strength of the particular kidou and wielder..(d)

Now your only recourse is to argue timestop in fact not being kidou after all.. but of which there can be no sustainable pro or con argument..

I hope that the animators may shed some more light into the happenings of Urahara and Tessai saving the vizards.. maybe we will see the kidous sequence.. though some may scream filler or non-cannon..

a) You mentioned it stopped #88 on the path it was flowing. If we assume the area covered by spatial displacement to be the same area covered by temporal stasis then we still do not have a kidou that flows on a certain path, the path of which being able to normally be interrupted by Danku.

b) But only shown to be effective from one angle as of yet. Again read the second sentance of (a) it applies here too. Assuming temporal displacement only affects a ranged area, this area would still cover danku I am quite certain.

c) When you analyse the name "temporal displacement" it can actually be fairly conclusively drawn that it does only affect an area and not all of time. It displaces the time within an area from the natural timeflow etc. SO I shall assume from now on that it is an area "attack" for want of a better word... perhaps "effect". However, I think it likely that it's area of effect can be moderated to a degree, suggested by the very fact that it affects only the immediate area that the Vaizards occupy, no more, no less. This suggests to me that he can tailor it to suit the area that needs to recieve the temporal stasis.

d) I'm not sceptical about what Byakuya says about how it's similar to kidou, but how people interpret it. Think about it. Zommari would operate Rukia as a puppet, moving her about etc. Bakudou #61 prevents all movement of the person in question. To me he's theorising "aha, there's something i can use to defend against this, KIDOU!" Almost like a "Eureka!" moment. As for the danku incident, it is logical no? Zommari's amor "takes the sovereignty of what it sees" so by blocking its line of sight at the last minute, the "attack" takes control of whatever is placed in its line of sight. ie, Danku. And as we see, Amor's "signature" the sign of its possession, appears on the Danku.

To try and help reaffirm myself of my attempted objective approach to such debates, I shall actually pose a better alternative than Danku which I feel would actually perhaps negate with its own area of effect, the area of effect of the Time Stop:

I maintain that Danku, being essentially a 2D barrier, stops the path of an attack or directed kidou, and would be useless against an area encompassing attack or ability. Perhaps unless the deployer were to create a cube or partial cube (except for the ground they stand on) of Danku around themselves.

Alternatively: Bakudou #73 Tozanshou. Which creates the upside down pyramid barrier around the user. This would cover any attack from all angles (hence the timestops area encompassing attack). It is possible that it works in the same way that Negaccion and Orihime's Zanten Kesshun works, ei the barrier essentially creates a different dimension inside the boundries of the barrier, (or between the boundries with Orihime's ability) and if so, theoretically the timestop would not apply within the dimension inside the boundaries of the Tozanshou. It makes alot of assumptions, but I think it's a more likely bet than Danku.

[UnadvisedGoose]

^I'd like to point something out.

Mikeno says that Danku is a forbidden Kido as well.

*TO EVERYONE ON BE, READ THIS PLEASE*

Danku is not forbidden. The translators messed up on this scan as they rushed it. What "forbidden" means when Tessai states it here: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.11/13/ , is that the kido was done chantless, which is impressive FOR A VC.

In fact here's the correct translation that BE posted from a more accurate translator.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-327-page-14.html

Also, the definition of Danku is to block all "Hadous" 89 and below, which does imply that only direct attacks affect it. If you want a post of that definition I'd gladly provide it.

On another note, the time stop and spatial manipulation ARE forbidden, making them unnumbered. There seems to be no reason to number them, as Tessai is likely the only person who can perform them at all. They are a totally different class of Kido, beyond just bakudou or hadou.

[Jrukia]

tosen sucks

[kaname95]

tosen sucks

Congrats you have made an entirely worthless post,which had nothing to do with the thrend.

Anyway before you say that Tessai uses the timestop kido don't you think it has some limitations to it.For example the size of the area that is affected?Someone also raised the point that Tessai used a chant when he did the spell and I am sure that neither Tousen or Aizen would allow Tessai to complete the chant (if he needs to do one) cause they know that it would mean big trouble for them.

[kkdog44]

yes i think this waould b good

[kaname95]

^^Explain what you mean by that cause I am not getting you at all.You have to be clear please.

[Mikeno]

@Pumpkin: Aizens danku was more impressive in the TBTP arc then than Byakuyas one that you seem to be using as a size reference.. Aizens (danku) seemed to have multiple faces..

@Unadvised Goose: To be fair you should have posted the raws as well if you believe one translation correct over another.. They (OneManga) seem to have forbidden translated correctly later in the same chapter.. I will be looking for raws in the meantime to see if some of the kanji seems amiss..

[UnadvisedGoose]

^You can ask any person who is an authority on translations as well. I got this confirmed through arwen_luna when this came out, and I trust him very much on translations, as most members of this forum do. He knows his stuff. But ask or check anywhere else. Its not forbidden. That honestly doesn't even make sense. Byakuya wouldn't use a forbidden move, even if its to save his life/his sisters life. He is a stickler for the law. It just doesn't make sense to have any of the 99 levels of Kido from either side forbidden. Obviously those are at least known about by most shinigami, yet Urahara, who was a captain, had no idea the forbidden spells even existed. They are on a totally separate level than the hadous and bakudous used by anyone else.

[pumpkin13]

Show me where Aizen's danku has multiple faces. You saw the page you posted yourself, Hadou #88 goes up against it as it was going up against a flat wall, there's no suggestion of mutliple faces.

[Bankboy]

Tessai pwns all. All he need to do is halt the time and dimension. proceed with hadou #99 towards frozen Aizen & Tousen. Job done.

[pumpkin13]

We are assuming that Aizen has already wreathed himself in illusions prior tot he timestop. Although good point; is Tessai likely to have seen Aizen's release? Personally I don't think so...

[Mikeno]

Tessai pwns all. All he need to do is halt the time and dimension. proceed with hadou #99 towards frozen Aizen & Tousen. Job done.

What particular dimension..?

What hadou #99..? Dont tell me you have been fortunate enough to have been given privy to its nature.. For I haven't the fortune of you to have seen it in the manga as of yet.. Please do enlighten us to its description or even better link to its image..

My belief = poster looked over Pumpkins theories and haphazardly threw up that post..

Post ruling = should be overlooked..

Come up with your own ideas noob..

________________


In the matter of translation I will concede if only in the interest of time as to not waste yours and mine on the subject any further.. the translation makes sense.. there..

Now as for the multi-faceted (IMO) danku that Aizen summons..

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/3562/835copy.png

As you can see while conforming to the perpendicular face from its (hadou #88) determined origination it also conforms to a face that is parallel from where it originated.. thats not something that just arbitrarily happened.. it happened because something there forced its course.. that something I believe (and anyone being reasonable would believe) to be Aizens danku..


______________

LMAO at all of the noobs who have been inactive for months or who have just created accounts to come IN HERE just to vote.. lmao.. HHHMMM..?

[Bankboy]

What particular dimension..?

What hadou #99..? Dont tell me you have been fortunate enough to have been given privy to its nature.. For I haven't the fortune of you to have seen it in the manga as of yet.. Please do enlighten us to its description or even better link to its image..

My belief = poster looked over Pumpkins theories and haphazardly threw up that post..

Post ruling = should be overlooked..

Come up with your own ideas noob..


Now now... the dimension term that i used came from one of Tessai's forbidden ability which is 'kuukantentei' = 'spatial/space transposition' or 'moves the dimension'.

Perhaps u misinterpret my line as halting the dimension.. well sorry for that. As for hadou #99, aint that something regular for a Captain Commander of Kidou Corps. Or if you dont think he's capable of spamming a 99, i shall degrade it to hadou #90 chantless full powaa!!!

Guess what. the outcome is still the same. Tessai pwns all. Job done :bigsmile:

[Mikeno]

Now now... the dimension term that i used came from one of Tessai's forbidden ability which is 'kuukantentei' = 'spatial/space transposition' or 'moves the dimension'.

Perhaps u misinterpret my line as halting the dimension.. well sorry for that. As for hadou #99, aint that something regular for a Captain Commander of Kidou Corps. Or if you dont think he's capable of spamming a 99, i shall degrade it to hadou #90 chantless full powaa!!!

Guess what. the outcome is still the same. Tessai pwns all. Job done :bigsmile:

No it is Kuukan Teni which translates to space relocation.. not this Kuukantentei you speak of.. And when I was referring to your use of dimension I was speaking of its redundancy when you mentioned "halting all time and dimension" I mean what were you speaking of.. what dimension..? Time..? You already spoke of meaning it was redundant jargon.. or were you referring to space relocation..? Which would be more confusing seeing as there is no mention of space relocation halting a dimension in the first place..

You will find it easy to mislead someone when you can not fully articulate ones own thought process.. So yes I interpreted what you said for all that it could be interpreted for.. Next time I suggest you proofread your post so as not to mislead anyone with your inability to convey your thoughts coherently.. thanks much..

As well please leave the speculation to a minimum that is the problem with Tessais' side of the argument it is riddled with speculation (referring to your inclusion of this hadou #99)..

[pumpkin13]

Sup Mikeno, I appreciate you have to take time out to pwn noobs everynow and then (and there is no noob worse than an IDEA STEALING NOOB! tut tut, but any more on this mutliple faced danku? What did you think of my other alternative bakudou that surrounds the caster?

[Mikeno]

Sup ma dude.. Sorry there are noobs in here taking up space (as well as ideas =]..) with their unnecessary text detracting away from my diagram that I posted why I believe that Aizens danku seemed multifaceted.. I will happily post it again though..

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/3562/835copy.png

As you can see while conforming to the perpendicular face from its (hadou #88s) determined origination it also conforms to a face that is parallel from where it originated.. thats not something that just arbitrarily happened.. it happened because something there forced its course.. that something I believe to be Aizens danku..

Although most of our points on this matter will become moot when considering the animation of this particular manga chapter is coming quite soon..

And Im sorry man what bakudou is it you are speaking of..?

[Bankboy]

An ordinary chantless Danku. What happen there is mere explosion effect. Nothing special.

[pumpkin13]

Bankboys right here. Sorry man, I just don't see multiple faces to it. What we see here is the #88 hitting the danku from a side on almost "cross section" point of view. The danku, as it is viewed from the side is out of sight, as a playing card is from the side. The #88 presses up against the danku and the flames because heat goes upwards move upwards, it's just the fluidlike movement of the flames upwards. Danku is a two dimensional construct. Plain and Simple.

The one I proposed was #73 Touzanshou, the pyramidic barrier thats formed around the user. It's a 3d construct and surrounds them on all sides.

[UnadvisedGoose]

I don't think Tozansho would be strong enough to block a timestop, or even Hadou 88 for that matter. Just my opinion, or there wouldn't be any need for Danku to exist if Tozansho blocked that high, while also completely protecting all sides.

Honestly, I still don't think anything we've seen or heard of could block the timestop. I think it must just be stopped before it is initiated, which seems easy enough, as it seems to require a chant, no matter how powerful or skilled the user.

[eneru92]

the allmight Danku can be easily overmatched by a 90+ level spell like kurohitsugi so , forbidden or not , Aizen cannot defend himself from the strongest spells , both hado and bakudo , that Tessai would eventually cast during the fight .
Also , with his kido knowledge , i think that Tessai would be able to find Tousen in his bankai .
Plus , I really don't see tousen beating Urahara or Tessai himself and Aizen dosen't seem to me so expert in zanjutsu to defeat both Tessai and Urahara .
So I'll give victory to Tessai - Urahara team .

[pumpkin13]

I don't think Tozansho would be strong enough to block a timestop, or even Hadou 88 for that matter. Just my opinion, or there wouldn't be any need for Danku to exist if Tozansho blocked that high, while also completely protecting all sides.

Honestly, I still don't think anything we've seen or heard of could block the timestop. I think it must just be stopped before it is initiated, which seems easy enough, as it seems to require a chant, no matter how powerful or skilled the user.

I disagree, we cannot tell if it does or if it doesn't. Tessai would have asked Urahara to cover his ears had he been going to do it chantless (eg "Forbiddon Kidou: Temporary Stasis!") just as much as if he would have if he was going to do it with the chant (eg. "Holy Gods who deem this earth worthy of their watchful gaze, unseal your mightly wheels and bring them crashing to a thunderous halt, by seven north and forty west, I declare, gods of time to behold: Forbiddon Kidou; Temporary Stasis!")

[Mikeno]

@Pumpkin13: Did you not read my explanation on the points of view..? And please "Bankboy" and "being right" should never be used in a sentence together.. not at this level of intellectual discussion..

@Eneru92: Your logic is astounding.. Tessai would just perform level 90s kidou because he has shown the ability to while conversely Aizen would be rendered defenseless against it even though he has also shown the ability to cast 90s level kidou as well.. Incredible why didn't I think of that.. and also that Tessai is a kidou master of course it also grants him the ability to see and react unimpeded inside Tousens bankai.. OF COURSE.. I'm such a dope.. don't you see how much fun unfounded speculation can be..?

@Unadvised: at least you are willing to see that performing that indefensible.. insurmountable.. immeasurable.. forbidden kidou that is timestop would require some amount of time to set up.. Tessai said it himself "So for the next few moments.. please cover your eyes and ears.." The kidou wasn't done with just the flick of his wrist you know..?

[vastroLordeIchigo]

Sup ma dude.. Sorry there are noobs in here taking up space (as well as ideas =]..) with their unnecessary text detracting away from my diagram that I posted why I believe that Aizens danku seemed multifaceted.. I will happily post it again though..

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/3562/835copy.png

As you can see while conforming to the perpendicular face from its (hadou #88s) determined origination it also conforms to a face that is parallel from where it originated.. thats not something that just arbitrarily happened.. it happened because something there forced its course.. that something I believe to be Aizens danku..

Although most of our points on this matter will become moot when considering the animation of this particular manga chapter is coming quite soon..

And Im sorry man what bakudou is it you are speaking of..?noob person says noob and all these logics are making my head hurt

[eneru92]

@Eneru92: Your logic is astounding.. Tessai would just perform level 90s kidou because he has shown the ability to while conversely Aizen would be rendered defenseless against it even though he has also shown the ability to cast 90s level kidou as well.. Incredible why didn't I think of that.. and also that Tessai is a kidou master of course it also grants him the ability to see and react unimpeded inside Tousens bankai.. OF COURSE.. I'm such a dope.. don't you see how much fun unfounded speculation can be..?



You cannot compare aizen's kido and tessai's kido
Aizen used hado 90 and obtained just one third of its real power .
Tessai , who was the kido captain , used 3 version of bakudo 99 CHANTLESS and one after the other .
So , in kido terms , forbidden spells or not , Tessai >>> Aizen
Also , when I said that Tessai , with his kido knowledge , would find Tousen in his bankai , I was referring to bakudo 58 .

[kaname95]

You cannot compare aizen's kido and tessai's kido
Aizen used hado 90 and obtained just one third of its real power .
Tessai , who was the kido captain , used 3 version of bakudo 99 CHANTLESS and one after the other .
So , in kido terms , forbidden spells or not , Tessai >>> Aizen
Also , when I said that Tessai , with his kido knowledge , would find Tousen in his bankai , I was referring to bakudo 58 .

^^
Last time I checked, bakudo no.58 shows the user the coordinates of opponent.Key word,SHOWS implying that you see the coordinates, which you cannot do in Tousen's bankai.

Also I think Mikeno was suggesting that Aizen would not be totally defenceless as you seem to have implied but that he could also try to use kido to counter Tessai's kido.

Try to think things through first

[UnadvisedGoose]

^Good point lol! I don't think anyone mentioned that fact about Bakudou 58.

But I don't think Aizen could defend against Tessai's higher level Kido. That would require a bakudou in the nineties probably, and the last time Aizen performed one of those, he failed at it, and it was the lowest ninety level. Not saying that Aizen would lose, cuz honestly I don't think that. But if it were a pure Kido duel, without Aizen's zan, then I firmly believe Tessai would win without a doubt.

[darkhole]

About this whole timestop and space travel stuff:

http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000052322/17.jpg

Why would Tessai tell Urahara the names of the 2 spells, "Jikan Teishi" & "Kukan Teni", and then tell Urahara to cover his ears and close his eyes if all Tessai is gonna do is say something along the lines of, "Bakudo 120: "Jikan Teishi" etc? (Of course I'm no expert on Kidou in bleach but I'm assuming that's most likely how it would be said. <--Open to correction here) Most likely Tessai has to say the entire incantation for both spells, thus making it completely useless in battle against pretty much any captain class opponent, let alone Aizen.

But seriously, there's nothing to even suggest that Urahara or Tessai are even on the level of Shunsui/Ukitake, and Shunsui is currently being paired with the #1 espada, someone who is almost guaranteed to be weaker than Aizen. I like Urahara and Tessai but just both of them against Aizen doesn't seem like good odds for them imo. Add Tousen and it just seems like a fucking overkill.

People forget that Tousen dropped Love, Rose, Hacchi, and Risa inside his bankai 100 years ago, thus establishing the fact that he can 1 shot captain class fighters inside his bankai in a matter of seconds. Zaraki is just a fucking tank.

1 of the last times we saw Urahara in action he was getting his shikai blast tossed aside by Ulquiorra. I know some people like to make the argument that Urahara wasn't putting all of his power into it, but honestly, after seeing unreleased Ulquiorra take a direct hit from VBankai Ichigo(Before Ichigo's battle with Grimmjow) and come out unscathed does anyone doubt the result would've been any different? Or do the Urahara fans claim that Urahara's shikai blast > VBankai Ichigo's getsuga Tenshou? And Aizen's definitely > Ulquiorra. So u can pretty much assume that Urahara's shikai is gonna be useless against someone as powerful as Aizen. Aizen and Yamamoto are unique in the fact that they both have shikai's that pose as Bankai's. Urahara's shikai is just that...a shikai.

People who don't like Aizen will try to make this a match, but it really isn't. Again, and Aizen gets help from Tousen? FUCKING OVERKILL!

[kochito22]

Why would Tessai tell Urahara the names of the 2 spells, "Jikan Teishi" & "Kukan Teni", and then tell Urahara to cover his ears and close his eyes if all Tessai is gonna do is say something along the lines of, "Bakudo 120: "Jikan Teishi" etc? (Of course I'm no expert on Kidou in bleach but I'm assuming that's most likely how it would be said. <--Open to correction here) Most likely Tessai has to say the entire incantation for both spells, thus making it completely useless in battle against pretty much any captain class opponent, let alone Aizen.

Maybe if Urahara heard the spells being performed, they'd affect him.

[Mikeno]

About this whole timestop and space travel stuff:

http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000052322/17.jpg

Why would Tessai tell Urahara the names of the 2 spells, "Jikan Teishi" & "Kukan Teni", and then tell Urahara to cover his ears and close his eyes if all Tessai is gonna do is say something along the lines of, "Bakudo 120: "Jikan Teishi" etc? (Of course I'm no expert on Kidou in bleach but I'm assuming that's most likely how it would be said. <--Open to correction here) Most likely Tessai has to say the entire incantation for both spells, thus making it completely useless in battle against pretty much any captain class opponent, let alone Aizen.

But seriously, there's nothing to even suggest that Urahara or Tessai are even on the level of Shunsui/Ukitake, and Shunsui is currently being paired with the #1 espada, someone who is almost guaranteed to be weaker than Aizen. I like Urahara and Tessai but just both of them against Aizen doesn't seem like good odds for them imo. Add Tousen and it just seems like a fucking overkill.

People forget that Tousen dropped Love, Rose, Hacchi, and Risa inside his bankai 100 years ago, thus establishing the fact that he can 1 shot captain class fighters inside his bankai in a matter of seconds. Zaraki is just a fucking tank.

1 of the last times we saw Urahara in action he was getting his shikai blast tossed aside by Ulquiorra. I know some people like to make the argument that Urahara wasn't putting all of his power into it, but honestly, after seeing unreleased Ulquiorra take a direct hit from VBankai Ichigo(Before Ichigo's battle with Grimmjow) and come out unscathed does anyone doubt the result would've been any different? Or do the Urahara fans claim that Urahara's shikai blast > VBankai Ichigo's getsuga Tenshou? And Aizen's definitely > Ulquiorra. So u can pretty much assume that Urahara's shikai is gonna be useless against someone as powerful as Aizen. Aizen and Yamamoto are unique in the fact that they both have shikai's that pose as Bankai's. Urahara's shikai is just that...a shikai.

People who don't like Aizen will try to make this a match, but it really isn't. Again, and Aizen gets help from Tousen? FUCKING OVERKILL!

FTMFW..

noob person says noob and all these logics are making my head hurt

Sorry my post count doesn't impress you jackass..

[eternio]

im just gonna have to go with urahara. he wasnt impressed with ulq when he did send a very weak version of his blast at him. ulq retreated when urahara showed up and started toying with an espada. so dont count urahara out. plus the whole battle is a foolish conjecture since azien and urahars bankai has yet to be rexplored. and tosen only beat those lts and cptns cause he got the drop on them( well for the most part. also aizen toseen and gin all ran when urahara showed up back then). a 5yr old can beat mike tyson if he stabbed him in his sleep.

given aizen also probably did some hollowfication on himself and his 2 defected cptns. that much pretty much means the aizen team would most likely win, however im still goin with urahara simple because he is lazy.........and lazy in this series seems to bode well on the power meter.

[kaname95]

^^
What the hell are you talking about.Ulq left because he had completed his task and when did urahara say that it was a weak attack that ulq tossed away like nothing.

noobs today (sigh)

[pumpkin13]

About this whole timestop and space travel stuff:

http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000052322/17.jpg

Why would Tessai tell Urahara the names of the 2 spells, "Jikan Teishi" & "Kukan Teni", and then tell Urahara to cover his ears and close his eyes if all Tessai is gonna do is say something along the lines of, "Bakudo 120: "Jikan Teishi" etc?(a) (Of course I'm no expert on Kidou in bleach but I'm assuming that's most likely how it would be said. <--Open to correction here) Most likely Tessai has to say the entire incantation for both spells, thus making it completely useless in battle against pretty much any captain class opponent, let alone Aizen.

But seriously, there's nothing to even suggest that Urahara or Tessai are even on the level of Shunsui/Ukitake, and Shunsui is currently being paired with the #1 espada, someone who is almost guaranteed to be weaker than Aizen.(b) I like Urahara and Tessai but just both of them against Aizen doesn't seem like good odds for them imo. Add Tousen and it just seems like a fucking overkill.

People forget that Tousen dropped Love, Rose, Hacchi, and Risa inside his bankai 100 years ago, thus establishing the fact that he can 1 shot captain class fighters inside his bankai in a matter of seconds(c). Zaraki is just a fucking tank.

1 of the last times we saw Urahara in action he was getting his shikai blast tossed aside by Ulquiorra. I know some people like to make the argument that Urahara wasn't putting all of his power into it, but honestly, after seeing unreleased Ulquiorra take a direct hit from VBankai Ichigo(Before Ichigo's battle with Grimmjow) and come out unscathed does anyone doubt the result would've been any different? Or do the Urahara fans claim that Urahara's shikai blast > VBankai Ichigo's getsuga Tenshou(d)? And Aizen's definitely > Ulquiorra. So u can pretty much assume that Urahara's shikai is gonna be useless against someone as powerful as Aizen. Aizen and Yamamoto are unique in the fact that they both have shikai's that pose as Bankai's.(e) Urahara's shikai is just that...a shikai.

People who don't like Aizen will try to make this a match, but it really isn't. Again, and Aizen gets help from Tousen? FUCKING OVERKILL!

a) Er... to reveal the names of the techniques he's going to use to us the readers without still having to show the full set up. He was already producing kidou through his hands before even saying the incantation that he supposedly needed to cast them, which I haven't seen even people capable of nonchanting do.

b) Bleach math=fail. Currently Shunsui might be going toe to toe with stark but he is only using his secondary sword in his secondary hand, he's not taking it seriously as of the last clash we saw between them. Also there are theories that would hold stark stronger than aizen (aizen without vaizard powers that is) and I for one only put Aizen on shunsui's level anyway, there's nothing definitive to state he's above that level.

c) I used to cite this, but then I realised it's over rated. The captains were taken by surprise at seeing their comrades in the state they were in, even more so when Shinji got attacked by Masahiro, then Shinji got taken down by Hiyori, they were preoccupied when they got caught in Tousen's bankai, and on top of that Tousen's bankai is ridiculously hax. Rose if I recall correctly was already down and out for the count, Hacchi had just exerted a large amount of effort on #99 Kin and Love had just taken a full force attack from Hollow Kensei, so Lisa was the only one undoubtedly at full strength. And like i said, ability of one on one or one on three is all null and voided when the three can't see, hear, smell or sense reiatsu at all.

d) No but then you DID just compare a shikai attack to a vaizard bankai attack. It's still possible that Urahara is a vaizard, and then he has bankai on top of that. I'd put him at the higher end of mid tier myself. Ofcourse it doesn't matter in the timestop (yeah yeah I read your argument of that and i don't buy it).

e) wut? shikais posing as bankais? Aizen's shikai? wut?

[darkhole]

a) Er... to reveal the names of the techniques he's going to use to us the readers without still having to show the full set up. He was already producing kidou through his hands before even saying the incantation that he supposedly needed to cast them, which I haven't seen even people capable of nonchanting do.
What does that have to do with anything? Unless you're implying that since he's starting the process before he begins the incantation that he did it nonverbally, which wouldn't make any sense at all because he told Urahara to cover his ears. So obviously he said something. So my point still stands. Why would he tell Urahara the names of the 2 spells, and then tell Urahara to cover his ears if all he is going to say is "bakudo 120: "Jikan Teishi" (of course I made up the number just now)



b) Bleach math=fail. Currently Shunsui might be going toe to toe with stark but he is only using his secondary sword in his secondary hand, he's not taking it seriously as of the last clash we saw between them. Also there are theories that would hold stark stronger than aizen (aizen without vaizard powers that is) and I for one only put Aizen on shunsui's level anyway, there's nothing definitive to state he's above that level.
After seeing the type of person Barragan is anyone with any sense would realize that Barragan would never follow someone weaker than himself, thus at the very least Aizen > Barragan. But seeing as how Aizen is indeed the boss of the Espada, most likely Aizen is > Stark as well. Whether or not Gin and Tousen are indeed stronger than the top 4 espada is the big argument. Shunsui is fighting toe to toe with someone who bows before Aizen. Also there are theories that Stark will be the one that Shunsui and Ukitake display their team work skills against.



c) I used to cite this, but then I realised it's over rated. The captains were taken by surprise at seeing their comrades in the state they were in, even more so when Shinji got attacked by Masahiro, then Shinji got taken down by Hiyori, they were preoccupied when they got caught in Tousen's bankai, and on top of that Tousen's bankai is ridiculously hax. Rose if I recall correctly was already down and out for the count, Hacchi had just exerted a large amount of effort on #99 Kin and Love had just taken a full force attack from Hollow Kensei, so Lisa was the only one undoubtedly at full strength. And like i said, ability of one on one or one on three is all null and voided when the three can't see, hear, smell or sense reiatsu at all.
Rose and Love were fine and good to go after taking that attack from Kensei. Face it, Tousen dropped their asses. Everyone was screaming plotkai when Tousen chopped of Grimmjow's arm after Bankai Ichigo had just finished having trouble even scratching Grimmjow. Tousen's just really underrated. He has the power to drop mid-tier captains and he displayed it. Until it's proven that Urahara or Tessai can tank as well as Kenpachi(Highly doubt it) if they get trapped inside Tousen's bankai Tousen's gonna drop their ass. The simple Truth.


d) No but then you DID just compare a shikai attack to a vaizard bankai attack. It's still possible that Urahara is a vaizard, and then he has bankai on top of that. I'd put him at the higher end of mid tier myself. Ofcourse it doesn't matter in the timestop (yeah yeah I read your argument of that and i don't buy it). Exactly, I did compare the 2 but I was making a point. If Ulquiorra can tank Vbankai Ichigo's GT then no one should be surprised that he slaps aside Urahara's shikai. Don't buy my argument? It was just a logical deduction. Not, "And there's theories that Aizen's not even stronger than his minions, and there's theories that Urahara's a vizard." That's the difference in our arguments.



e) wut? shikais posing as bankais? Aizen's shikai? wut?

This one was actually very simple. Aizen's shikai is as powerful as most captains' bankais. Hell, > most captains' bankais.