Does Ulquiorra want to lose?

[Amon-Rukh]

It's been a while since Bleach has actually been interesting enough for me to start speculating again, but this last chapter got me thinking. Does anyone else get the feeling that with the way Ulquiorra keeps baiting Ichigo and forcing him to fight then lecturing/instructing Ichigo in the process, that Ulq might actually want to be defeated?

Aizen has shown a lot of interest in Ichigo but we still don't have any clear reason as to why or what exactly that interest is aside from the fact that Ichigo is a vizard. Then there's the fact that Aizen clearly knew that SS would send forces to Hueco Mundo, but he withdrew himself, Gin, Tousen and the top 3 Espada to go to Karakura town. He can't possibly have thought that Ulquiorra alone would be enough to take on Kenpachi, Byakuya, Mayuri and Unohana if the captains started wrecking house, so this business of Ulquiorra "guarding" Las Noches must have some sort of ulterior motive. Besides, if he was just supposed to keep the place safe, why would Ulq have immediately challenged Ichigo and let him know where to go for a fight?

Ulquiorra also knows that Ichigo's maximum potential is greater than his own, so if he were really trying to defeat Ichigo, wouldn't he want to go all-out right away and end the fight quickly instead of slowly building the progression of attacks and reinforcing Ichigo every time Ichigo does something right in their battle? Ulqiorra never did anything like this before; it's almost like he's trying to teach Ichigo now though. If Aizen actually wants Ichigo to reach his maximum potential, then what better person than super-loyal Ulquiorra--who is both strong enough and no doubt completely willing to sacrifice himself to make sure the job gets done right--to force the issue on Ichigo?

I would not be surprised if over the course of the fight it is revealed that Ichigo is caught up in just another part of Aizen's plan and that everything was set up to play out exactly this way from the start. What do the rest of you think?

[pumpkin13]

Once a warrior reaches a certain level it is his secret dream to find someone who can beat him. So from a psychological point I can see what you're trying to say. But I really don't think Bleahc and Ulquiorra run as deep as that.

[Soltir]

That was the case for Nnoitra, not Ulquiorra. Ulquiorra just wants to get rid of Ichigo, hence the beheading attempt.

[He's a Mentalist]

You make a good point, but considering the previous battles of Bleach, every enemy wants to loose.

That was the case for Nnoitra, not Ulquiorra. Ulquiorra just wants to get rid of Ichigo, hence the beheading attempt.

He could have easily followed up on that attack instead of just backing off and making a silly comment. A good fighter just fights and thinks at the same time, not giving his opponent any breathing room.

[Soltir]

He could have easily followed up on that attack instead of just backing off and making a silly comment. A good fighter just fights and thinks at the same time, not giving his opponent any breathing room.

Maybe he's feeling that he doesn't have too? Ichigo was having a hard time with unreleased Ulquiorra. Now on top of that, he faces a released one.

[He's a Mentalist]

Feeling he doesn't have to? Then I guess he doesn't want to kill Ichigo all that much. =/

[Soltir]

He knows he has this fight. Why rush? If you know you are not in grave danger, wht is there to worry about, so you'll have to finish it quickly?

[paradise_found]

i've actually thought about that before. that perhaps ulquiorra is looking for a way out from under aizen's thumb and the only way he can would be through death. i can see a grimmjow-esque flashback coming up for ulquiorra, and i wouldn't be surprised to see that he wants out.

but i also agree with pumpkin a bit. bleach prolly don't run that deep.

[pumpkin13]

Feeling he doesn't have to? Then I guess he doesn't want to kill Ichigo all that much. =/

We've seen Ulquiorra is a fan of the mind games with his constant onslaught of emotional torture with Orihime. My guess is he would considor the ultimate victory not to kill Ichigo, but to make him truly realise that all hope is gone and that his efforts are compeltely and effortlessly futile. Ie; completely break his spirit, passion for victory and his resolve.

[Chaiba-Sama]

mm i agree with you that this whole shit probably is just a part of Aizen's plan. But i don't think that Ulq wants to lose against Ichigo. I think the lecturing and stuff are part of his peronality

[He's a Mentalist]

He knows he has this fight. Why rush? If you know you are not in grave danger, wht is there to worry about, so you'll have to finish it quickly?

Why not end it early? Because, Ichigo is just a waste of time and there are other enemies to fight and kill to ensure Aizen's plan comes to fruition without any glitches in it. You also end it quickly, in a war like the one they are having, so you have more energy and less injuries. Only an idiot would prolong a fight against one enemy in a war when there are other enemies around.

We've seen Ulquiorra is a fan of the mind games with his constant onslaught of emotional torture with Orihime. My guess is he would considor the ultimate victory not to kill Ichigo, but to make him truly realise that all hope is gone and that his efforts are compeltely and effortlessly futile. Ie; completely break his spirit, passion for victory and his resolve.

He sucks at mind games because Orihime is unaffected by them. =/

[Soltir]

Why not end it early? Because, Ichigo is just a waste of time and there are other enemies to fight and kill to ensure Aizen's plan comes to fruition without any glitches in it. You also end it quickly, in a war like the one they are having, so you have more energy and less injuries. Only an idiot would prolong a fight against one enemy in a war when there are other enemies around.

If he is a Vasto Lorde and he has such great power (broke Ichigo's mask in one hit, Grimmjow needed a entire battle) he won't worry about the others. Also he might be savotig the moment. Ichigo tried to kill him before and failed. This time he may try to grind his spirit with a victory like that, then finish him of. For enjoyment.

[He's a Mentalist]

What does that have to do with anything in regards to my post, besides circular reasoning? I won't post much again since it will be practically the same thing as I said previously.

[pumpkin13]

Why not end it early? Because, Ichigo is just a waste of time and there are other enemies to fight and kill to ensure Aizen's plan comes to fruition without any glitches in it. You also end it quickly, in a war like the one they are having, so you have more energy and less injuries. Only an idiot would prolong a fight against one enemy in a war when there are other enemies around.



He sucks at mind games because Orihime is unaffected by them. =/

judging from the insinuations that something weird is happening inside Orihime, she might not be as unaffected as you think.

[dyne]

ulquiorra's goal from the start has been to make ichigo one of them. He wants ichigo to let his hollow out completely he said that directly to grimmjow "theres still a chance he could be one of us"

[Matt]

Off Topic for a moment.

You know its spelled "LOSE", not loose lol. I mean can't you tell the difference in sound between the 2 :P

Back on topic.

That's a little bit to in depth, good assumption, but I doubt thats it.

It's probably some sort of Psych game, that's what Ulquorria is all about, messing with the mind and using it to his advantage.

And @dyne

When was that said, chapter plz?

[dynamo]

ulquiorra's goal from the start has been to make ichigo one of them. He wants ichigo to let his hollow out completely he said that directly to grimmjow "theres still a chance he could be one of us"

Holy crap what, I don't remember that (although I did recently take a long break from Bleach), if that is correct Ulquiorra may be trying to bait Ichigo's hollow out for that?!

[Paragon]

Off Topic for a moment.

You know its spelled "LOSE", not loose lol. I mean can't you tell the difference in sound between the 2 :P

Back on topic.

That's a little bit to in depth, good assumption, but I doubt thats it.

It's probably some sort of Psych game, that's what Ulquorria is all about, messing with the mind and using it to his advantage.

And @dyne

When was that said, chapter plz?

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-198-page-7.html

[seraphim]

Sorry I normally like indepth discussions like this but honestly be fair.

The only reason Ulquiorra did not just follow up and behead him for real is because Ichigo is the main character , as simple as that. Many opponents he fought could have just rushed in without Ichigo having any idea about their power and just simply killed him but then it wouldnt be a show would it. Yama could have just gone lolintruders in the ss arc and just shunpo over to him and kill their entire group if he wanted to (as could most of the other captains).

[Sweeney Todd]

I can see what you're trying to say. But I really don't think Bleahc and Ulquiorra run as deep as that.

i see what you're trying to say....tite kubo ran out of ink.

[Vergil]

Wow it would be great if Ichigo turns to the dark side.
And I think Ulq just wants to see his full potential as he tells him to concentrate etc.

[manje10]

Its either what Dyne just said or Pumpkin earlier, when a warrior reaches his peak they search for oppenents they can fight and not simply someone they can just kill off easily.

They look for a challenge and to find someone they can enjoy fighting
(Its all they do and the reason why Ulq exists its his purpose to fight)

Alot of Manga's have characters who go around just looking for strong oppenents and Ulquiorra has found his, also the fact that Ichigo is a Vaizard plays its part.

[dynamo]

Wow it would be great if Ichigo turns to the dark side.
And I think Ulq just wants to see his full potential as he tells him to concentrate etc.

Ichigo going bad? Uhh sorry I can't see that happening. Unless his HOLLOW joins Aizen, which I wouldn't truly count as Ichigo.

[Sweeney Todd]

Its either what Dyne just said or Pumpkin earlier, when a warrior reaches his peak they search for oppenents they can fight and not simply someone they can just kill off easily.

They look for a challenge and to find someone they can enjoy fighting
(Its all they do and the reason why Ulq exists its his purpose to fight)

Alot of Manga's have characters who go around just looking for strong oppenents and Ulquiorra has found his, also the fact that Ichigo is a Vaizard plays its part.


Let me tell you something from experience. I ve been at the top many times. When one is at the top the first thing he fears is to lose that spot so he runs from confrontations and challenges.

This theory in your post is not true. it's a postulate actually....not a theory.

[Ryuku]

I've been at the top only a few times cause of my fail, but with my experience, people with god complexes almost always want to win, but must call out people on their pros and flaws when they show them, atleast that's how I can be. Maybe Ulquiorra is like that. People who are at the top who don't feel deserving are the only ones scared to lose it all imo

[Sweeney Todd]

I've been at the top only a few times cause of my fail, but with my experience, people with god complexes almost always want to win, but must call out people on their pros and flaws when they show them, atleast that's how I can be. Maybe Ulquiorra is like that. People who are at the top who don't feel deserving are the only ones scared to lose it all imo

Wrong. not completely wrong but still wrong nevertheless. It's in our nature to love to win and fear losing what we gained. This is why they try to glorify it in the mangas...because we are all cowards.

and i dont think you ve been at the top unless maybe top of the soccer league on xbox360...otherwise you d agree with me.

[pumpkin13]

If you're constantly in fear of losing your position then you a) likely have no or little self confidance and are unsure of what you can achieve and/or b) probably didn't get there by your own merits.

and i'm intrigued, what exactly have you been at the top in Mr Todd?

[Sweeney Todd]

If you're constantly in fear of losing your position then you a) likely have no or little self confidance and are unsure of what you can achieve and/or b) probably didn't get there by your own merits.

and i'm intrigued, what exactly have you been at the top in Mr Todd?

or c) i am human.

it's actually c) i am human.

edit: i ve been on top of almost everything i set my mind on. anything.

[He's a Mentalist]

judging from the insinuations that something weird is happening inside Orihime, she might not be as unaffected as you think.

Unaffected in the sense of emotionally attached to Aizen's side and siding with them. The thing that might be inside her could very well be the hygoukyou (spelling?).

ulquiorra's goal from the start has been to make ichigo one of them. He wants ichigo to let his hollow out completely he said that directly to grimmjow "theres still a chance he could be one of us"

He did the training with Shinji so that he could keep his hollow under control. The only hollow he would let out would be the crazy one, hellbent on killing everyone in sight, or Hichigo who has no affiliation to either side. If Hichigo comes to the surface that would mean Ichigo has been defeated.

Its either what Dyne just said or Pumpkin earlier, when a warrior reaches his peak they search for oppenents they can fight and not simply someone they can just kill off easily.

They look for a challenge and to find someone they can enjoy fighting
(Its all they do and the reason why Ulq exists its his purpose to fight)

Alot of Manga's have characters who go around just looking for strong oppenents and Ulquiorra has found his, also the fact that Ichigo is a Vaizard plays its part.

I think it plays on what dyne has stated more than pumpkin and another possible minor detail being alluded. I don't think Ichigo's hollow would align with Aizen, nor do I think Ichigo would align with Aizen unless there was sufficient reason to do it. Ichigo's main purpose is to protect his friends, not K-town, he stated that to Zaraki. There is a possible chance of Ulquiorra actually recruiting Ichigo to their side, it is just a matter of how he does it and what he will say to Ichigo inorder to give him that inclination to join their cause.

If you're constantly in fear of losing your position then you a) likely have no or little self confidance and are unsure of what you can achieve and/or b) probably didn't get there by your own merits.

I completely disagree. Fear of losing should be a natural reason to progress and go beyond your initial limits and surpass those who are becoming more powerful than you are. It is natural to feel a certain fear of losing one's position at the top. It has nothing to do with self-confidence, nor does it have anything to do not getting their on your own merits in some cases. You worked hard to get to the top and want to stay at the top. Why give it up? You don't, unless you are dead.

[dynamo]

Whether he's been at the top or not, or whether his hypothesis is applicable to the character in question or not, I believe he's right in saying that people are the top are realistically more likely to want to avoid confrontation. When you get accustomed to being at the top, what you fear the most is getting knocked off the top and losing your status. A bit off-topic, but...

[BOssManNate]

Sweeney Todd your wrong, I was a 3 time state champ in track all 3 years I was in highschool I lost 2 races the entire time and I went and searched those people out going to invites they were in a separate division.

I had no fear of losing my position because if someone is better than me its not my spot its theirs and from both those races I lost I left a little disappointed but actually excited because I tracked this guy down 2 more times and beat him both times.

A TRUE WINNER and TRUE COMPETITOR doesn't run from competition so don't tell someone who actually stands up and says hes been on the top a few times is wrong because he knows people either want to help there competition so they can later get better competition or they gloat.

They don't run because a TRUE WINNER is fearless unlike yourself personally I think your the one who thinks beating his little sister at a game of basketball classifies yourself as being on top but non the less your trash if you are scared and run from competition when you get on top your a pussy, so you beat your little sister now go play your big brother so you can prove your not complete trash.

[plotkaislayer]

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-198-page-7.html

I take seriously Grimmjow's response to Ulq. in that page you linked. Ulq. may have just been making excuses a la the "Sloth" we now know him to be.

But it's still a good point to raise. I'd entirely forgotten about this conversation.

[He's a Mentalist]

A TRUE WINNER and TRUE COMPETITOR doesn't run from competition so don't tell someone who actually stands up and says hes been on the top a few times is wrong because he knows people either want to help there competition so they can later get better competition or they gloat.

There is no such thing as a true winner or true competitor. We all have our own reasons of wanting to stay at the top if we are at the top. One who wants himself to be surpassed by someone greater than he is, is one who is content with his current limit and doesn't want to go further and do more. Instead of becoming more, he stays in a reclusive state of suppression of his limits and confiding in himself that is all he is going to be and to let someone else take the hold of the title.

[Sweeney Todd]

Sweeney Todd your wrong, I was a 3 time state champ in track all 3 years I was in highschool I lost 2 races the entire time and I went and searched those people out going to invites they were in a separate division.

well i was a state champ in track too. I used to come down just a wee bit late, and the school bus takes off without me, so i take off my back my schoolbag, throw it and run after the bus, stop it, then run back, get my bag and off to my school.

I had no fear of losing my position because if someone is better than me its not my spot its theirs and from both those races I lost I left a little disappointed but actually excited because I tracked this guy down 2 more times and beat him both times.

now this bullshit crap about fairness and "if someone is better than me its not my spot its theirs" is the kind of bullshit i dont buy. i didnt buy that in the past, and i am not buying it now.

A TRUE WINNER and TRUE COMPETITOR doesn't run from competition so don't tell someone who actually stands up and says hes been on the top a few times is wrong because he knows people either want to help there competition so they can later get better competition or they gloat.

They don't run because a TRUE WINNER is fearless unlike yourself personally I think your the one who thinks beating his little sister at a game of basketball classifies yourself as being on top but non the less your trash if you are scared and run from competition when you get on top your a pussy, so you beat your little sister now go play your big brother so you can prove your not complete trash.

if i had a little sister, and i beat her in a game of basketball, i d consider myself a true champ.

off-topic; what did BOssManNate do when he became the state champ in track?

answer: turn off his x-box and go to bed.

[BOssManNate]

Actually Im running at Central Washington University for there track team on a full ride scholarship but its ok because your a pathetic excuse for a competitor

[Sweeney Todd]

Actually Im running at Central Washington University for there track team on a full ride scholarship but its ok because your a pathetic excuse for a competitor


and i play for liverpool FC. But i took the day off and i am here chatting with you.

[BOssManNate]

exactly you can not grasp the concept of a true competitor you try and use sly remakes and stupid comebacks to take a person off the topic your an idiot and you have no stance on a true competitor because you were never and will never be on top

[Sweeney Todd]

exactly you can not grasp the concept of a true competitor you try and use sly remakes and stupid comebacks to take a person off the topic your an idiot and you have no stance on a true competitor because you were never and will never be on top

you need to work on your grammar. If you're a fast learner also, i am sure that wont be a problem for the Washington university track champ.

and guess what? i came on top.....you ve already called me an idiot twice trying to provoke me. But you failed....miserably if i may add. This proves my point that you are not what you are trying to sell us.

[BOssManNate]

Actually you just proved my point, I am trying to get competition in an argument like a True competitor does and your backing off because you think you have won just like a pussy does you are nothing to me but a little entertainment in between classes your nothing at all. You have been called out and you have been playing the defensive bitch card the whole time sitting there claiming that champs are chickens if champs are chickens like you how the fuck do they become a champ... You fail your trash

[Sweeney Todd]

Actually you just proved my point, I am trying to get competition in an argument like a True competitor does and your backing off because you think you have won just like a pussy does you are nothing to me but a little entertainment in between classes your nothing at all. You have been called out and you have been playing the defensive bitch card the whole time sitting there claiming that champs are chickens if champs are chickens like you how the fuck do they become a champ... You fail your trash

you've called me an idiot twice, and pussy also twice, and now you're calling me a chicken.

what next? are you going to negative rep me?
Oh you already did...lmfao!

Does Ulquiorra want to... Stupid fuck

[BOssManNate]

This conversation was over and done with the second he changed the subject completely off the competition portion of our argument you lose little fellow. Not a new feeling for you but its okay I am sure you have something else to say. But it will be ignored just like all the idiotic things that spurt out of your mind onto your keyboard where you type this jibberish that is useless in any argument.

[dynamo]

and i play for liverpool FC. But i took the day off and i am here chatting with you.

Let me tell you the story of a poor boy, who was sent far away from his home
to fight for his king and his country, and also the old fokes back home...

@bossmannate: look, you seem to think that to get to the top you need to be fearless and noble... But champions are champions because they are good at what they do. Simple as that. They're still perfectly human. And calm down by the way, INTERNET: SRS BUSINESS.

[Vergil]

Ulq's is interested on Ichigo's full power to be used on him but his mind games with Ichigo and Orihime really made no effect on the battle and Ichigo didnt lose his temper - so what was KT's purpose for them?/....

PS Mb you 2 stop...

[JayR]

Id say so, id say Aizen has told Ulq to force ichigo to push further.
BUT if its not that then its just the same as previous fights.

Kenpachi wanted somebody strong to fight even at the expense of loosing.
Rengi id say wanted to loose because of rukia.
Same with Byakua
Dondoridoni wanted ichigo to go all out during the process even if he lost he dient care..
Grimmjaw.. Hum.. He wanted to win so much.. i guess that was diferent.
Noitora wanted to simply die against the strongest foe he could find.
so meh.

[Lune]

We've seen Ulquiorra is a fan of the mind games with his constant onslaught of emotional torture with Orihime. My guess is he would considor the ultimate victory not to kill Ichigo, but to make him truly realise that all hope is gone and that his efforts are compeltely and effortlessly futile. Ie; completely break his spirit, passion for victory and his resolve.

Which would explain why he kept on making it sound like Inoue had switched sides a few chapters back...


@BossManNate & SweenyTod: Enough. Both of you. If you want to have a go at each other like that, make a member war. Don't spam threads insulting each other.

[fractal]

WHAT CMC SAID! -__-

[pumpkin13]

@Todd: Your posts just scream superiority complex at me. Well done you play for a Liverpool team, my housemates 16 year old brother just got drafted into the Man U junior team, your achievement is nothing impressive.

Ulquiorra could be doing a similar thing that Dordonii did. Perhaps he wants to see if Ichigo can truly beat him with his peaked power etc.

[Boss]

Ulquiorra is talking to Ichigo like that as a form of intimidation. When he critiques Ichigo it makes him appear more powerful than Ichigo right off the bat. He's saying, "Don't falter because you will be dead the instant you do." (Keep in mind I'm paraphrasing) To study someone during a battle means you are most likely not preoccupied with any sense of danger.

Also it means, "I'm so fucking good that the minute your not using 100% of your abilities I will easily destroy you" which means Ulquiorra is saying his average fighting abilities are equal to or greater than Ichgo's peak abilities. Saying something like that in turn will tend to throw a good fighter off balance because they are now distracted with the worry of faltering, which may end up being the reason for faltering.

Intimidation tactics.

It's not meant to be help.

[Spectre]

I've just read 345 right now. Man, this totally kicks ass!! Ulqui is so freakin' awesome!! Ichigo may've just handed his butt to him.

[anthonee1230]

Also it means, "I'm so fucking good that the minute your not using 100% of your abilities I will easily destroy you"

Sounds like Ichigo's hollow :P

[Aidan]

I think that Ulquiorra is/was bored by the futility of the Hollows' unorganized fight against the shinigami, and so he deeply respects Aizen's leadership and power to organize and give strength to the Hollows and create a centralized force capable of taking on Soul Society.

I feel that it's not that Ulquiorra doesn't like fighting.. it's that he doesn't like pointless fighting, as opposed to Nnoitra, Kenpachi, Grimmjow or Hichigo. Thus when Ichigo wasn't a threat Aizen, he let him be. However, now Ichigo is currently not a threat, so I think there is an element of pride in Ulquiorra that since Ichigo & co were able to get much farther than Las Noches anticipated, he must make up for it by completely defeating Ichigo.

So even though he is much more logical than the lower espada we have already seen, his pride as an espada/arrancar and his devotion to Aizen and Aizen's pride I think are motivating him to beat Ichigo. Since hollows are at the core inhuman beasts constantly hungering for souls, for power, Ulquiorra cannot completely prevent his blood from boiling, cannot deny the nature of the hollow.

[btill9000]

IMO, It's Sasuke versus Itachi all over again. Ulquiora doesn't exactly want to lose, rather he wants Ichigo to defeat him. Huge difference between wanting to lose and wanting someone to defeat you.

The odd part is....if Ulquiora wants Ichigo to gain the strength to defeat him that would imply that the top 3 espada are not going to die in the real world fighting the captains. Since the only reason for Ulquiora to possibly want Ichigo to defeat him is that he wants Ichigo to defeat the 4th espada, thus putting him at the power level of a top 3 espada.

[mystriboid]

seriously ulq is a saddist, i couldn't expect much from him

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

I don't think Ulquiorra wants Ichigo to defeat him nor does he want to lose. IMO he simply wants to fight someone who can actually fight back for once. I mean think about it, if you were Ulquiorra there would be barely anyone you come across who can actually stand up to you and put up a fight. Now he finally has the chance to prove to himself that he deserves his position as well as the power he has gained from Aizen.

[fakeobsession]

What? Why the hell may Ulquiorra wanted to loose to Ichigo?
I thinks it's pretty obvious he wants to kill him.If he didn't, he would fight him with his sword & now release his power. I think we have seen how Ulquiorra acts when he is neutral about something...

[Rufix]

Nah he's just toying with Ichigo, lookin down upon him as he used to do before, though with resolve to kill little bugger.

[Mcloud]

yeah right... he wants to lose by playing a football with Ichigo's head >.>

[Sweeney Todd]

What? Why the hell may Ulquiorra wanted to loose to Ichigo?
I thinks it's pretty obvious he wants to kill him.


because we have some people here who breath weed instead of air, and think with their other head.

[He's a Mentalist]

I think that Ulquiorra is/was bored by the futility of the Hollows' unorganized fight against the shinigami, and so he deeply respects Aizen's leadership and power to organize and give strength to the Hollows and create a centralized force capable of taking on Soul Society.

I feel that it's not that Ulquiorra doesn't like fighting.. it's that he doesn't like pointless fighting, as opposed to Nnoitra, Kenpachi, Grimmjow or Hichigo. Thus when Ichigo wasn't a threat Aizen, he let him be. However, now Ichigo is currently not a threat, so I think there is an element of pride in Ulquiorra that since Ichigo & co were able to get much farther than Las Noches anticipated, he must make up for it by completely defeating Ichigo.

One thing I disagree with. Grimmjow, Nnoitra (current, not past), and Kenpachi aren't fighting pointlessly. They are fighting a war. That should give credence to them not exactly fighting pointlessly.

So even though he is much more logical than the lower espada we have already seen

I disagree. Grimmjow has shown to be more logical than Ulquiorra on a number of occasions. The rest of the post I agree with.

because we have some people here who breath weed instead of air, and think with their other head.
What? Why the hell may Ulquiorra wanted to loose to Ichigo?
I thinks it's pretty obvious he wants to kill him.If he didn't, he would fight him with his sword & now release his power. I think we have seen how Ulquiorra acts when he is neutral about something...

The way Ulquiorra is fighting Ichigo would suggest to people that he wants to lose. He is giving lectures to Ichigo instead of following up on attacks.

3 espada are not going to die in the real world fighting the captains. Since the only reason for Ulquiora to possibly want Ichigo to defeat him is that he wants Ichigo to defeat the 4th espada, thus putting him at the power level of a top 3 espada.

I disagree. Ulquiorra does not know the power level of the captains so how would he know that they aren't able to defeat the Espada in KT currently? Ulquiorra only fought/is fighting Ichigo, not the Gotei-13. And I am certain that most captains could take him out. Some of the captains, or most, don't just rely on the mere aspect of strength to defeat an opponent but kidou prowess as well and their abilties.

[mirandaadria]

I still think Ulquiorra is a double agent of some kind. He has yet to kill anyone, and every time the opportunity arises, he either makes some excuse or something interrupts the kill.

[fakeobsession]

The way Ulquiorra is fighting Ichigo would suggest to people that he wants to lose. He is giving lectures to Ichigo instead of following up on attacks.

eh? that was retard...so what?Kenpachi let Ichigo CUT HIM anywhere he wanted!
that was what?Did it mean the Kenpachi wanted to loose to Ichigo? No way my friend.
Uqluiorra is just trying to have a fair fight, against a good opponent. He did all that stuff ( holding his sword, releasing himself) for nothing? He wants to fight after all.

[He's a Mentalist]

Fighting fair in war is in itself retarded and would suggest the person who has the upper hand wants to actually loose. Besides, Ichigo challenged him to the fight, so all bets are off and he should kill him as quickly as possible, instead of tip-toeing around his death when there are more powerful enemies out there waiting to engage him in battle.

against a good opponent. He did all that stuff ( holding his sword, releasing himself) for nothing? He wants to fight after all.

Ichigo isn't a good opponent to fight against honestly. An opponent you have to lecture in a fight in order to get the best out of them is not a 'good' fighter. Byakuya, Mayuri, and Zaraki are all better fighters than Ichigo.

[plotkaislayer]

Fighting fair in war is in itself retarded and would suggest the person who has the upper hand wants to actually loose. Besides, Ichigo challenged him to the fight, so all bets are off and he should kill him as quickly as possible, instead of tip-toeing around his death when there are more powerful enemies out there waiting to engage him in battle.



Ichigo isn't a good opponent to fight against honestly. An opponent you have to lecture in a fight in order to get the best out of them is not a 'good' fighter. Byakuya, Mayuri, and Zaraki are all better fighters than Ichigo.

Honestly, this is a ridiculous standard against which to measure a good fighter--whether or not they need lecturing.

Also, it's incredibly silly. Do you even remember the Byakuya v. Zomari fight? When was there NOT lecturing in that fight? Ichigo actually was the one lecturing Zaraki in their battle. Mayuri and Apollo Granz lectured each other constantly. The speech during battle is part of the battle, building suspense, giving us hints about other fights or plotlines, and to disclose some details about the fighters themselves.

[He's a Mentalist]

Honestly, this is a ridiculous standard against which to measure a good fighter--whether or not they need lecturing.

Also, it's incredibly silly. Do you even remember the Byakuya v. Zomari fight? When was there NOT lecturing in that fight? Ichigo actually was the one lecturing Zaraki in their battle. Mayuri and Apollo Granz lectured each other constantly. The speech during battle is part of the battle, building suspense, giving us hints about other fights or plotlines, and to disclose some details about the fighters themselves.

I don't measure Ichigo on that standard alone, there are other standards I measure him on as well which would make him not so much of a good fighter. Byakuya and Zomari's fight was merely a debate, not a lecture. Szayel and Mayuri were basically one-upping each other with their scientific accomplishments and abilities, not lecturing each other unless you count what Mayuri said to Szayel about perfection as a lecture. But even then I would discontinue that as a lecture in a fight because, Szayel was basically dead/defeated.

giving us hints about other fights or plotlines, and to disclose some details about the fighters themselves.

I don't think so. What do you mean giving us hints about other fights? Disclose information? Usually when one is breaking down like Ichigo was, the thoughts are being told by the character breaking down, not the opponent. The fact that Ulquiorra could see Ichigo's disposition in their fight is a testament to his fighting ability, not to mention he hardly uses any tactics and breaks focus off the enemy during a battle. If Ulquiorra wasn't so nice Ichigo would have died when he screamed at those two fodder arrancar.

[darkhole]

Sorry I normally like indepth discussions like this but honestly be fair.

The only reason Ulquiorra did not just follow up and behead him for real is because Ichigo is the main character , as simple as that. Many opponents he fought could have just rushed in without Ichigo having any idea about their power and just simply killed him but then it wouldnt be a show would it. Yama could have just gone lolintruders in the ss arc and just shunpo over to him and kill their entire group if he wanted to (as could most of the other captains).

/thread

Seriously, Ichigo can't die. Ulquiorra has to hold back until Ichigo gains more power somehow simply because Ichigo is the MC.

[Yayap]

I don't think Ulquiorra wants to lose, but something is definitely up here. It's possible that it's just the "I'm fighting the main character" syndrome.

He has been constantly passing up opportunities to land a devastating blow on Ichigo throughout this battle. He was poised to strike Ichigo when Loli & Menoli grabbed Inoue, causing Ichigo to turn his back to Ulquiorra. But he didn't continue the attack. Instead he sonido'ed in front of Ichigo to stop him helping Inoue.

There are other moments in after Yammi & Ishida arrived where Ichigo left himself wide open to attack, but Ulquiorra just stood there, not pressing the advantage. And now this page:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-358-page-16.html

Ulquiorra has his weapon behind Ichigo's head before he could even react. If Ulquiorra could get to him that fast & move his weapon behind Ichigo before he noticed, then he could have just swung it normally & it would have taken his head off. Also, one of Ulquiorra's wings is behind Ichigo, limiting his movements.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

I believe Ulquiorra is purposely trying to drag out the fight simply because he wants Ichigo to gain more power so Ulquiorra can have a better fight. He's turned Ichigo into a lab rat more or less and seeing what he can do under certain circumstances. If he wanted to kill Ichigo he could've done it by now with ease, but he wants to see what he can do.

[MoonCannon]

Given Ulquiorra's loyalty to Aizen, I'd figure that the fight here for Ulquiorra is just to simply determine Strawberry's powers and how strong the boy is. As a result, Ulquiorra tries to prolong the fight with his statements just to see how powerful Ichigo can be. In addition, Ulquiorra is interested in Ichigo's potential growing powers as much as Aizen too, which is also why the espada punched a hole into Ichigo.

[Furret]

Fighting fair in war is in itself retarded

These are Japanese, boy... a Thousand years back, they have been in one continuous war with those rules. Two lines of Samurai stood against each other, then run towards each other, while wariors were shouting stuff like: "You are lame, come fight me!"at oponents. Then, they faught one against one. The winner repeated the same way to fight with another oponent. No cheating. Not even 2 against 1...

[Sweeney Todd]

Given the time, we ll get to know ulq4's story when the winds start to blow in favour of ichigo. Such an emo espada....he must have had a troubled childhood that ulq4.

[fakeobsession]

I believe that Ulquiorra wants to kill Ichigo...But Bitchigo can't take Ulquiorra's power.
He is almost defeaded & then adult Neliel breaks in & fight Ulquiorra instead.

[Pixie_]

eh? that was retard...so what?Kenpachi let Ichigo CUT HIM anywhere he wanted!
that was what?Did it mean the Kenpachi wanted to loose to Ichigo? No way my friend.
Uqluiorra is just trying to have a fair fight, against a good opponent. He did all that stuff ( holding his sword, releasing himself) for nothing? He wants to fight after all.

Indeed Zaraki told Ichigo that he could cut him anywhere, but one obvious point here is that Zaraki knew Ichigo wouldn't be able to actually damage him; but since we all know that the only thing Zaraki cares about is a good fight, so obviously he needed to make sure.

I doubt that Ulquiorra cares if the fight is fair or not, and the fight isn't fair since the power difference between Ulquiorra and Ichigo seems to pretty much gigantic.



Fighting fair in war is in itself retarded and would suggest the person who has the upper hand wants to actually loose. Besides, Ichigo challenged him to the fight, so all bets are off and he should kill him as quickly as possible, instead of tip-toeing around his death when there are more powerful enemies out there waiting to engage him in battle.



Ichigo isn't a good opponent to fight against honestly. An opponent you have to lecture in a fight in order to get the best out of them is not a 'good' fighter. Byakuya, Mayuri, and Zaraki are all better fighters than Ichigo.

Ichigo isn't a good opponent? Depends who you compare too, obviously he doesn't have as much experiance as the captains, but in strength and reiatsu he is a decent opponent to most 'high tier' challangers.

I don't measure Ichigo on that standard alone, there are other standards I measure him on as well which would make him not so much of a good fighter. Byakuya and Zomari's fight was merely a debate, not a lecture. Szayel and Mayuri were basically one-upping each other with their scientific accomplishments and abilities, not lecturing each other unless you count what Mayuri said to Szayel about perfection as a lecture. But even then I would discontinue that as a lecture in a fight because, Szayel was basically dead/defeated.



I don't think so. What do you mean giving us hints about other fights? Disclose information? Usually when one is breaking down like Ichigo was, the thoughts are being told by the character breaking down, not the opponent. The fact that Ulquiorra could see Ichigo's disposition in their fight is a testament to his fighting ability, not to mention he hardly uses any tactics and breaks focus off the enemy during a battle. If Ulquiorra wasn't so nice Ichigo would have died when he screamed at those two fodder arrancar.

What do you mean with 'If Ulquiorra wasn't so nice Ichigo would have died when he screamed at those two fodder arrancar' ? and

'The fact that Ulquiorra could see Ichigo's disposition in their fight is a testament to his fighting ability, not to mention he hardly uses any tactics and breaks focus off the enemy during a battle.'

If I understood you correct you meant that Ulquiorra could se that Ichigo trembled and broke his stance? Ichigo trembeled most likely due to the reiatsu that was released when Ulquiorra released his form?

I believe Ulquiorra is purposely trying to drag out the fight simply because he wants Ichigo to gain more power so Ulquiorra can have a better fight. He's turned Ichigo into a lab rat more or less and seeing what he can do under certain circumstances. If he wanted to kill Ichigo he could've done it by now with ease, but he wants to see what he can do.

I don't think Ulquiorra is trying to drag out the fight, since he did aim to cut off Ichigo's head. (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-358-page-19.html) That Ichigo used Getsuga was just an act of despair, and it turned out to be enough to save his life.

Given Ulquiorra's loyalty to Aizen, I'd figure that the fight here for Ulquiorra is just to simply determine Strawberry's powers and how strong the boy is. As a result, Ulquiorra tries to prolong the fight with his statements just to see how powerful Ichigo can be. In addition, Ulquiorra is interested in Ichigo's potential growing powers as much as Aizen too, which is also why the espada punched a hole into Ichigo.

Seems like a resonible theory.

Given the time, we ll get to know ulq4's story when the winds start to blow in favour of ichigo. Such an emo espada....he must have had a troubled childhood that ulq4.

Ulquiorra's story will probably be very interessting, and the stereotype of 'emo' often is shy and unssure; so I don't understand why everyone is calling Ulquiorra an 'emo'.

[pumpkin13]

the stereotype of emo is quiet keeps to themselves and mopes around with a morose expression on their face, much like Ulquiorra.

[fakeobsession]

he is not emo...I mean emo guys claim to be 'emotional'
we don't have a track of emotion...

[xPyrox]

he is not emo...I mean emo guys claim to be 'emotional'
we don't have a track of emotion...

The 'we' in this sentence leads me to believe you need to go outside for a while.

Either way.
I don't think its that Ulq wants to loose, as someone said in another post, I think he wants to break ichigo, get Ichigo to fight at his maximum, see what he's really capable off and then crush him.

imo, its either that.

or Kubo's trying to get Ulq to TEACH Ichigo so ichigo can WIN a fight that if his mask gets broken from one attack, its not looking good.

[fakeobsession]

when I said we...I mean we who watch the anime...
I don't get what you mean anyways...
Did you see Ulquiorra having any sign of emotions?

[Pixie_]

the stereotype of emo is quiet keeps to themselves and mopes around with a morose expression on their face, much like Ulquiorra.

'quiet keeps to themselves' = shy and uncertainty can always lead to shyness
Ulquiorra doesn't have a gloomy expression on his face. His face is emotionless

he is not emo...I mean emo guys claim to be 'emotional'
we don't have a track of emotion...

Agreed

The 'we' in this sentence leads me to believe you need to go outside for a while.

Either way.
I don't think its that Ulq wants to loose, as someone said in another post, I think he wants to break ichigo, get Ichigo to fight at his maximum, see what he's really capable off and then crush him.

imo, its either that.

or Kubo's trying to get Ulq to TEACH Ichigo so ichigo can WIN a fight that if his mask gets broken from one attack, its not looking good.

She meant 'we' as in the ones that are discussing, probably.
And I disagree with your theory.

[He's a Mentalist]

Ichigo isn't a good opponent? Depends who you compare too, obviously he doesn't have as much experiance as the captains, but in strength and reiatsu he is a decent opponent to most 'high tier' challangers.

Having strength doesn't necessarily make you a good fighter, there are many other factors that come into being a good fighter as well. Ichigo just has strength to combat those with strength similar to his own or a bit higher.

What do you mean with 'If Ulquiorra wasn't so nice Ichigo would have died when he screamed at those two fodder arrancar' ? and

Ulquiorra could have killed Ichigo. Ichigo took his eyes of the opponent and tried going after Orihime. Ulquiorra intercepted him and told him he'd have to kill him first. That is another indication that Ichigo isn't a good fighter. You don't take your eyes off of the opponent.

If I understood you correct you meant that Ulquiorra could se that Ichigo trembled and broke his stance? Ichigo trembeled most likely due to the reiatsu that was released when Ulquiorra released his form?


You can take that situation to different paths. We all have an opinion of why he was trembling. My reason is not only because of Ulquiorra's power, but also the fact that he got a little scared and showed his fear.


he is not emo...I mean emo guys claim to be 'emotional'
we don't have a track of emotion...

Do you know of any guys who actually claimed to be severly emotional? I haven't.

[plotkaislayer]

I don't measure Ichigo on that standard alone, there are other standards I measure him on as well which would make him not so much of a good fighter. Byakuya and Zomari's fight was merely a debate, not a lecture. Szayel and Mayuri were basically one-upping each other with their scientific accomplishments and abilities, not lecturing each other unless you count what Mayuri said to Szayel about perfection as a lecture. But even then I would discontinue that as a lecture in a fight because, Szayel was basically dead/defeated.



I don't think so. What do you mean giving us hints about other fights? Disclose information? Usually when one is breaking down like Ichigo was, the thoughts are being told by the character breaking down, not the opponent. The fact that Ulquiorra could see Ichigo's disposition in their fight is a testament to his fighting ability, not to mention he hardly uses any tactics and breaks focus off the enemy during a battle. If Ulquiorra wasn't so nice Ichigo would have died when he screamed at those two fodder arrancar.

Re:

First Paragraph: I find it interesting that you'll look into context and make subtle distinctions about these characters but not Ichigo's. It borders on "Other characters engage in debates and arguments, but when someone talks to Ichigo in battle, it's a lecture. Because it's a lecture, Ichigo is a bad fighter." Yet, this argument has the unreasonable warrant that only Ichigo can be lectured. True, we see characters lecture Ichigo all the time. None of them have ultimately won, and none of them were particularly weak opponents.

Second Paragraph: What you're losing here is that the lectures are expository. My Mac's dictionary defines exposition as, "the part of a play or work of fiction in which the background to the main conflict is introduced." That's a good definition for us to work with. I avoided using that word before because it sounds pretentious (because it kinda is). As the protagonist, we're supposed to identify with Ichigo and his struggles. When opponents lecture Ichigo, they're also lecturing us, and we feel the same responses KT shows on the page. While we identify with Ichigo's responses to the lecture, we're also learning about the story itself--such as when Hits lectures Ichigo on ranks of the hollows in HM (a lecture in which Ichigo loses...? Oh, wait) Now, clearly you don't like Ichigo. You don't identify with him. That's fine, but that doesn't mean that the lectures lack the expository role KT wishes for them.

One thing missing in that definition, by the way, is that much exposition in Bleach is for subplots, as well as for major stories. Subplots in Bleach are almost entirely character-driven, though, so it's hard to tell the difference between conversation and exposition. KT does that on purpose, I think, to make the exposition seem less forced.

[Pixie_]

Do you know of any guys who actually claimed to be severly emotional? I haven't.
Quote:
Ichigo isn't a good opponent? Depends who you compare too, obviously he doesn't have as much experiance as the captains, but in strength and reiatsu he is a decent opponent to most 'high tier' challangers.
Having strength doesn't necessarily make you a good fighter, there are many other factors that come into being a good fighter as well. Ichigo just has strength to combat those with strength similar to his own or a bit higher.

Quote:
What do you mean with 'If Ulquiorra wasn't so nice Ichigo would have died when he screamed at those two fodder arrancar' ? and
Ulquiorra could have killed Ichigo. Ichigo took his eyes of the opponent and tried going after Orihime. Ulquiorra intercepted him and told him he'd have to kill him first. That is another indication that Ichigo isn't a good fighter. You don't take your eyes off of the opponent.

Quote:
If I understood you correct you meant that Ulquiorra could se that Ichigo trembled and broke his stance? Ichigo trembeled most likely due to the reiatsu that was released when Ulquiorra released his form?

You can take that situation to different paths. We all have an opinion of why he was trembling. My reason is not only because of Ulquiorra's power, but also the fact that he got a little scared and showed his fear.



A tip for you, don't add the text within the quote, cause then other people can't quote in without copying it then pasting it.

*sigh*

Obviously you did not understand my post.


'Having strength doesn't necessarily make you a good fighter, there are many other factors that come into being a good fighter as well. Ichigo just has strength to combat those with strength similar to his own or a bit higher. '

No, it does not necessarily make you a good fighter, thought it makes Ichigo a good fighter. Ichigo compensates his lack of experience with strength. Which therefore makes him being able to fight higher tier enemies.

Ulquiorra could have killed Ichigo. Ichigo took his eyes of the opponent and tried going after Orihime. Ulquiorra intercepted him and told him he'd have to kill him first. That is another indication that Ichigo isn't a good fighter. You don't take your eyes off of the opponent.

Who says Ulquiorra could have killed Ichigo there? Ulquiorra tried to slice Ichigo's head in half while being in his released form and he failed: even though Ichigo didn't react to Ulquiorra until he was right infront of him and had the sword around the back of his neck. Ulquiorra wasn't even in his released form when Ichigo ran towards Inoue, so I doubt he would have been able to actually kill him there.

You can take that situation to different paths. We all have an opinion of why he was trembling. My reason is not only because of Ulquiorra's power, but also the fact that he got a little scared and showed his fear.

.. Really now, how can you not understand me. Obviously he was trembeling because of the reiatsu, and when he sensed the reiatsu it most likely made Ichigo fear Ulquiorra, seeing how the power gap between them is fairly large; and Ichigo probably sensed that by Ulquiorras reiatsu.

[He's a Mentalist]

First Paragraph: I find it interesting that you'll look into context and make subtle distinctions about these characters but not Ichigo's. It borders on "Other characters engage in debates and arguments, but when someone talks to Ichigo in battle, it's a lecture. Because it's a lecture, Ichigo is a bad fighter." Yet, this argument has the unreasonable warrant that only Ichigo can be lectured. True, we see characters lecture Ichigo all the time. None of them have ultimately won, and none of them were particularly weak opponents.

And...? I have yet to see you actually make an argument against my initial point of what makes a good fighter. I could care-less what opponents Ichigo has defeated in the past. The opponents he has defeated in the past doesn't constitute him as good fighter. Most of those fights were merely overpowering opponents who went the strength route in a battle. I am simply saying, he isn't a good fighter because of my initial statements on what actually makes a good fighter. A good fighter has self-control, uses different tactics in a fight to out-due an opponent, uses skills and different combinations of attacks, uses the environment to his/her advantage, doesn't break focus off of the enemy, etc... I have yet to see Ichigo use any one of those in a fight. He breaks focus, lacks self-control, uses the same attacks and attack combinations, and hardly ever uses the environment to his advantage. Ichigo learned martial arts, so why doesn't he implement that into his fighting style? Also, it is not because it is a lecture, but because Ichigo is careless in most of his fights so far. The lectures are a way of substantiating the claim that it is easy for the opponent to see through Ichigo because his lack of experience.

Second Paragraph: What you're losing here is that the lectures are expository. My Mac's dictionary defines exposition as, "the part of a play or work of fiction in which the background to the main conflict is introduced." That's a good definition for us to work with. I avoided using that word before because it sounds pretentious (because it kinda is). As the protagonist, we're supposed to identify with Ichigo and his struggles. When opponents lecture Ichigo, they're also lecturing us, and we feel the same responses KT shows on the page. While we identify with Ichigo's responses to the lecture, we're also learning about the story itself--such as when Hits lectures Ichigo on ranks of the hollows in HM (a lecture in which Ichigo loses...? Oh, wait) Now, clearly you don't like Ichigo. You don't identify with him. That's fine, but that doesn't mean that the lectures lack the expository role KT wishes for them.

One thing missing in that definition, by the way, is that much exposition in Bleach is for subplots, as well as for major stories. Subplots in Bleach are almost entirely character-driven, though, so it's hard to tell the difference between conversation and exposition. KT does that on purpose, I think, to make the exposition seem less forced.


Unless you are trying to lead me astray into another argument, why do I need to refute a point that hasn't refuted anything I've said thus far? Expository statements are just KT's way of telling the story. I am not talking about KT's writing style, but the story itself. By the way, I think I already explained that KT uses exposition when the character is telling the thoughts of what s/he is feeling at the time in their head.


No, it does not necessarily make you a good fighter, thought it makes Ichigo a good fighter. Ichigo compensates his lack of experience with strength. Which therefore makes him being able to fight higher tier enemies.


It makes him a contender to fight those with similar strength to his own, not a good fighter.

Who says Ulquiorra could have killed Ichigo there? Ulquiorra tried to slice Ichigo's head in half while being in his released form and he failed: even though Ichigo didn't react to Ulquiorra until he was right infront of him and had the sword around the back of his neck. Ulquiorra wasn't even in his released form when Ichigo ran towards Inoue, so I doubt he would have been able to actually kill him there.

Ichigo wasn't in his released form either and Inuoue protected Ichigo from an unreleased Ulquiorra. Ichigo taking his eyes off Ulquiorra is dangerous which led me to the supposition that if Ulquiorra wanted to kill him when he ran towards Inuoue, he could have.

.. Really now, how can you not understand me. Obviously he was trembeling because of the reiatsu, and when he sensed the reiatsu it most likely made Ichigo fear Ulquiorra, seeing how the power gap between them is fairly large; and Ichigo probably sensed that by Ulquiorras reiatsu.

I think you misunderstood me. Most of that is the same thing I said, just said differently. We seem to agree on this point to an extent.

These are Japanese, boy... a Thousand years back, they have been in one continuous war with those rules. Two lines of Samurai stood against each other, then run towards each other, while wariors were shouting stuff like: "You are lame, come fight me!"at oponents. Then, they faught one against one. The winner repeated the same way to fight with another oponent. No cheating. Not even 2 against 1...

Forgot to respond to one.

The times have changed obviously and SS and the human world in Bleach aren't stuck a thousand years back in Japan. To shed some light on not exactly fighting fair take a look at Komamura & Tousen vs Zaraki, or the tag team Byakuya and Renji did on Ichigo in the real world.

Good arguments so far guys... :)

[Boss]

You guys are right! Ulquiorra isn't emo!

He's a fucking goth kid.

The end.

[Pixie_]

No, it does not necessarily make you a good fighter, thought it makes Ichigo a good fighter. Ichigo compensates his lack of experience with strength. Which therefore makes him being able to fight higher tier enemies.


It makes him a contender to fight those with similar strength to his own, not a good fighter.

Again, http://static.bleachexile.com/manga/bleach/341/08.png

http://static.bleachexile.com/manga/bleach/341/09.png


Who says Ulquiorra could have killed Ichigo there? Ulquiorra tried to slice Ichigo's head in half while being in his released form and he failed: even though Ichigo didn't react to Ulquiorra until he was right infront of him and had the sword around the back of his neck. Ulquiorra wasn't even in his released form when Ichigo ran towards Inoue, so I doubt he would have been able to actually kill him there.

Ichigo wasn't in his released form either and Inuoue protected Ichigo from an unreleased Ulquiorra. Ichigo taking his eyes off Ulquiorra is dangerous which led me to the supposition that if Ulquiorra wanted to kill him when he ran towards Inuoue, he could have.

Ulquiorra used sonido and appeared in front of him, attacked him, then he used sonido to appear behind him. Ichigo did react to this(http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-354-page-16.html)
Even though it would have been to slow to avoid getting hit, but it wouldn't have killed him; and please think before you make a comment on this, compare the situation to the released battle first.

.. Really now, how can you not understand me. Obviously he was trembeling because of the reiatsu, and when he sensed the reiatsu it most likely made Ichigo fear Ulquiorra, seeing how the power gap between them is fairly large; and Ichigo probably sensed that by Ulquiorras reiatsu.


I think you misunderstood me. Most of that is the same thing I said, just said differently. We seem to agree on this point to an extent.

I did not misunderstand you, to me it seems you simply wanted to point out a 'flaw' in my comment


And...? I have yet to see you actually make an argument against my initial point of what makes a good fighter. I could care-less what opponents Ichigo has defeated in the past. The opponents he has defeated in the past doesn't constitute him as good fighter. Most of those fights were merely overpowering opponents who went the strength route in a battle. I am simply saying, he isn't a good fighter because of my initial statements on what actually makes a good fighter. A good fighter has self-control, uses different tactics in a fight to out-due an opponent, uses skills and different combinations of attacks, uses the environment to his/her advantage, doesn't break focus off of the enemy, etc... I have yet to see Ichigo use any one of those in a fight. He breaks focus, lacks self-control, uses the same attacks and attack combinations, and hardly ever uses the environment to his advantage. Ichigo learned martial arts, so why doesn't he implement that into his fighting style? Also, it is not because it is a lecture, but because Ichigo is careless in most of his fights so far. The lectures are a way of substantiating the claim that it is easy for the opponent to see through Ichigo because his lack of experience.

Then you definitely need to look closer.
http://static.bleachexile.com/manga/bleach/341/08.png

http://static.bleachexile.com/manga/bleach/341/09.png

[He's a Mentalist]

Again,



Ulquiorra used sonido and appeared in front of him, attacked him, then he used sonido to appear behind him. Ichigo did react to this(http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-354-page-16.html)
Even though it would have been to slow to avoid getting hit, but it wouldn't have killed him; and please think before you make a comment on this, compare the situation to the released battle first.

My original statement relates to Ichigo being focused on Inuoue. I am not using that as a source that in that instant Ichigo would have died. I am using that as an indication that when he took his focus off of Ulquiorra later on and was fixated on helping INuoue that Ulquiorra could have possibly done some serious damage to him, or killed him. That is the main point.


I did not misunderstand you, to me it seems you simply wanted to point out a 'flaw' in my comment
My original comment :

You can take that situation to different paths. We all have an opinion of why he was trembling. My reason is not only because of Ulquiorra's power, but also the fact that he got a little scared and showed his fear.

That isn't pointing out a flaw but rather stating my opinion on Ichigo's position.



Then you definitely need to look closer.
http://static.bleachexile.com/manga/bleach/341/08.png

http://static.bleachexile.com/manga/bleach/341/09.png


http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/342/14/

His failure at realizing that even if you he uses GT in a different way, that it still has no effect on Ulquiorra at all, but he insists on using it.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/342/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/342/11/

[Sweeney Todd]

that's because GT is his only Technique.
If i have only one technique and i am in a fight, then i will desperately keep on using it trying to break my opponent even if it didnt work for the first 10 times. Hope and instinct keeps me going. Also GT uses his ichigo's spirit energy so the more he harnesses his spirit energy the more it becomes stronger.

[mvlbrotherg]

We've seen Ulquiorra is a fan of the mind games with his constant onslaught of emotional torture with Orihime. My guess is he would considor the ultimate victory not to kill Ichigo, but to make him truly realise that all hope is gone and that his efforts are compeltely and effortlessly futile. Ie; completely break his spirit, passion for victory and his resolve.

I agree. Uluqiora seems to be the type that feels so superior to his opponent that he doesn't have to finish him right away. This is quite similar to Kenpachi outlook in fighting expressed in a different manner. From Uliuquora perspective Ichigo's like an insect and he's just making things last longer becuase he has nothing better to do at the moment. Either that or Kubo Tite just wants his manga to run longer.

[Pixie_]

My original statement relates to Ichigo being focused on Inuoue. I am not using that as a source that in that instant Ichigo would have died. I am using that as an indication that when he took his focus off of Ulquiorra later on and was fixated on helping INuoue that Ulquiorra could have possibly done some serious damage to him, or killed him. That is the main point.



My original comment :



That isn't pointing out a flaw but rather stating my opinion on Ichigo's position.





http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/342/14/

His failure at realizing that even if you he uses GT in a different way, that it still has no effect on Ulquiorra at all, but he insists on using it.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/342/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/342/11/

*sigh*

You're really slow. Ulquiorra is stronger then Ichigo, so obviously none of his current attacks will be able to deal a significant amount of damage to him. You're stating the obvious. Ichigo probably knows that Ulquiorra is too strong to be damaged by Getsuga, without having his mask on; but what else can he do? He tries to save one of his best friends that is being held 'hostage' by arrancars.

You're trying to say that Ichigo is a bad fighter cause he took focus of Ulquiorra to save another Inoue's life? Ichigo's resolvement is to protect his friends -- and he probably cares more about Orihime then he does about himself, that doesn't show that he is a bad fighter, it shows that he is human and that he cares about someone more then he cares about himself.

Also, thank you for the -rep(?)

that's because GT is his only Technique.
If i have only one technique and i am in a fight, then i will desperately keep on using it trying to break my opponent even if it didnt work for the first 10 times. Hope and instinct keeps me going. Also GT uses his ichigo's spirit energy so the more he harnesses his spirit energy the more it becomes stronger.

Agreed

I agree. Uluqiora seems to be the type that feels so superior to his opponent that he doesn't have to finish him right away. This is quite similar to Kenpachi outlook in fighting expressed in a different manner. From Uliuquora perspective Ichigo's like an insect and he's just making things last longer becuase he has nothing better to do at the moment. Either that or Kubo Tite just wants his manga to run longer.

Ulquiorra is superior to Ichigo, when it comes to battling.

[He's a Mentalist]

You're really slow. Ulquiorra is stronger then Ichigo, so obviously none of his current attacks will be able to deal a significant amount of damage to him. You're stating the obvious. Ichigo probably knows that Ulquiorra is too strong to be damaged by Getsuga, without having his mask on; but what else can he do? He tries to save one of his best friends that is being held 'hostage' by arrancars.

You're trying to say that Ichigo is a bad fighter cause he took focus of Ulquiorra to save another Inoue's life? Ichigo's resolvement is to protect his friends -- and he probably cares more about Orihime then he does about himself, that doesn't show that he is a bad fighter, it shows that he is human and that he cares about someone more then he cares about himself.

Also, thank you for the -rep(?)


I did not neg rep you.

Ichigo continuing the same tactic that proves to be futile is foolish in itself. If none of your current attacks deal enough damage to your opponent you try a different approach. Ichigo did do that a few strikes and a wasteful amount of energy later.

Yes, I am saying Ichigo is a bad fighter because he took his focus off Ulquiorra to try to save Inuoue. Ulquiorra being more powerful than Ichigo would require Ichigo to have most of his focus fixed on him. You are right though, Ichigo cares for his friends, but he also lacks the reasonings that if he were to die than all of his accomplishments thus far would have been for nothing. You do not take your eyes off a fighter like Ulquiorra in a fight to save your friends from him, because chances are, you will die if you do and Ichigo is supposed to be the savior. And, he didn't even save Inuoue either because, Ulquiorra interfered.

[Fatstogey]

We've seen Ulquiorra is a fan of the mind games with his constant onslaught of emotional torture with Orihime. My guess is he would considor the ultimate victory not to kill Ichigo, but to make him truly realise that all hope is gone and that his efforts are compeltely and effortlessly futile. Ie; completely break his spirit, passion for victory and his resolve.

Yup. Also you gotta consider the god complex that these characters have. Aizen shares the same one. Aizen wants Ichigo to gain in power. When Ichigo first came. A few espada were down to go kill him right away. Nnoitra and GJ for sure. But Aizen made them wait. Knowing that allowing Ichgo to face progressively stronger opponents would increase his strength a great deal.

Aizen wants the challenge. Aizen thinks hes god. He coulda killed Ichigo in SS. He wants a challenge. He doesnt wanna kill Ichigo when hes a still a punk. He wants to destroy him when he reaches his peak. I however im also certain that Aizen, being aware of Urahara's obvious interest in Ichigo, is interested in Ichigo.

He wants to beat Ichigo in his prime. However still attacking with intent but not serious about it. It happens over and over again. "Oh i thought i cut you in half." "your lucky, i was trying to cut your head of." Blah blah. They are just trying to tease out his power. They want to defeat powerful opponents.

Unlike Nnoitra and GJ who will just kill anyone. These guys are nurturing their opponent. They arent afraid. They think they are the best. So they wanna fight the best opponents. If he dies he dies. But if not then hes worthy to face them.

IDk i know everyone is waiting for it. But i just have to see Hichigo incoming soon. Ulqiorras power and the fact that he broke mask with his first attack. Plus i think Hichigo is just gonna respond to Ulqiorra's reiatsu.

I see Ichigos mask gettin broke down some more. Then boom, Hichigo. With something like "you still dont get it, Ichigo." CAuse Ichigo is still being a pussy. He didnt finish off GJ. Hes still being a bitch. We need some killing here. Its time for Ichigo to get some plotkai. Cause if you think about it he really hasnt got much plotkai n a while. Its time for these espada to face the devil.

Ulqiorra is a fuckin punk. Hichigo would make that fucker shit himself. I wanna see that shit. lol Gotta admit though. There would be none of this attack, then back up and talk with Hichigo. IDK i see Ulqiorra as the first opponent in a while that must be killled. And i still dont see Ichigo with the resolve to kill him. Hichigo always has the resolve to kill someone.

Plus Orihime is all fucked up in the head. And scared of Ichigo with his mask, normal. So i feel that she needs to see Hichigo. CAuse thats gonna fuck her head up even more.

[Baishin]

I dont think Ulquiorra wants to lose. I think he acts like a saiyan, meaning he wants to beat someone at their best and strongest, like Cell/Gohan and Yusuke/Tuguro.

[btill9000]

The reason Ichigo is lasting so long is because Tite has to give the other captains a reasonable amount of time to arrive. Their is no way Ichigo is going to beat Ulquiora. I'll say it again....If Ichigo beats Ulquiora then what purpose do the other captains serve and why did Kubo even bring them down there.

Here is the only theory I can come up with on it:

Aizen has been trying to get a vasto lord on board for years and years, but all of them declined. They all seem to believe that they will leave the captains realm alone as long as their are left alone. So Aizen lures 4 captains down into HM to disturb the realm of the Vasto Lords, and now this will bring Vasto Lord's in board.

[Lucky]

The reason Ichigo is lasting so long is because Tite has to give the other captains a reasonable amount of time to arrive. Their is no way Ichigo is going to beat Ulquiora. I'll say it again....If Ichigo beats Ulquiora then what purpose do the other captains serve and why did Kubo even bring them down there.


Seriously?

Why would the other Captains need to hastily arrive to the scene of the Ulquiorra/Ichigo fight? If they wanted to be there they could have easily made it there by now. All of them could have.

What purpose did the Capains serve and why were they brought to Hueco Mundo? You've got to be kidding me...
At the time the Captains arrived there were EVERY Espada save Aaroniero still there for just a badly injured Ichigo and company to contend with, they were absolutely needed. Ichigo and his friends could not have defeated Nnoitora, Szayel Aporro, Grimmjow, and Zommari by themselves much less the rest of the Espada. If Zaraki, Mayuri, Unohana, and Byakuya hadn't arrived then:

A) Ichigo would have had to finish fighting Nnoitora right after he fought Grimmjow, which is a losing proposition. Ichigo was near death as it was, and would have been easily finished by unreleased Nnoitora.
B) Renji and Ishida would have been slowly tortured to death by Szayel Aporro. They were completely done for and if not for Mayuri's appearence Szayel would have killed them all and kept their battered remains for test subjects.
C) Sado would have laid and the sand and died at the hands of Rudobon, if not for Unohana's arrival scaring the Excequias (chell speck) off, and healing of Chad.
D) Rukia would have been easily finished off (considering she was not able to even move...) by Zommari, who had shown up at the scene of AA's death.

So um....the Captains sent to Hueco Mundo weren't needed right? :unsure:

[btill9000]

Seriously?


What purpose did the Capains serve and why were they brought to Hueco Mundo? You've got to be kidding me...
At the time the Captains arrived there were EVERY Espada save Aaroniero still there for just a badly injured Ichigo and company to contend with, they were absolutely needed. Ichigo and his friends could not have defeated Nnoitora, Szayel Aporro, Grimmjow, and Zommari by themselves much less the rest of the Espada. If Zaraki, Mayuri, Unohana, and Byakuya hadn't arrived then:

A) Ichigo would have had to finish fighting Nnoitora right after he fought Grimmjow, which is a losing proposition. Ichigo was near death as it was, and would have been easily finished by unreleased Nnoitora.
B) Renji and Ishida would have been slowly tortured to death by Szayel Aporro. They were completely done for and if not for Mayuri's appearence Szayel would have killed them all and kept their battered remains for test subjects.
C) Sado would have laid and the sand and died at the hands of Rudobon, if not for Unohana's arrival scaring the Excequias (chell speck) off, and healing of Chad.
D) Rukia would have been easily finished off (considering she was not able to even move...) by Zommari, who had shown up at the scene of AA's death.

So um....the Captains sent to Hueco Mundo weren't needed right? :unsure:

You don't drag captains down to finish off trash that Ichigo couldn't finish off. If you drag the captains down to HM then it is my view that we should see the captains do something more than participate in trash fights. I guess you misunderstood me. The captains served a "purpose" if you want to be semantic, but so far that purpose has been far below any purpose that a 4 captains should be serving. In otherwords, I don't think captains should be serving a support role/clean-up role if they just have to be brought into HM. It's like passing to some unknown guy on the court when you have Michael Jordan on your team.

Another part of this is my belief that Ichigo technically shouldn't be able to beat Ulquiorra with what we have seen from him, but thats an entirely new can of worms. We'd have to discuss the possibility him gaining new powers and whether it's plotkai not, how much stronger he might have gotten from the Grimmjow fight, if Inoue could heal his lost reiatsu as well as his injuries, how strong Ulquiora really is, whats going on behind the relationship between Ulq and Inoue, how long can Ichigo really maintain his mask now, and a whole plethora of other things I am not up to debating right now.

Look at the bright side, we'll have an answer to 80% of this either this week or next week. I think we'll know pretty soon quick if Vaizard Ichigo is going capable of fighting a released Ulquiora, because it's my view that Ichigo will be down for the count in no more than 8 pages of the next chapter if he isn't strong enough to face released Ulquiora. I also suspect that Kubo might go back to the Karakura town fights, but I hope not....

[Pixie_]

I did not neg rep you.

Ichigo continuing the same tactic that proves to be futile is foolish in itself. If none of your current attacks deal enough damage to your opponent you try a different approach. Ichigo did do that a few strikes and a wasteful amount of energy later.

Yes, I am saying Ichigo is a bad fighter because he took his focus off Ulquiorra to try to save Inuoue. Ulquiorra being more powerful than Ichigo would require Ichigo to have most of his focus fixed on him. You are right though, Ichigo cares for his friends, but he also lacks the reasonings that if he were to die than all of his accomplishments thus far would have been for nothing. You do not take your eyes off a fighter like Ulquiorra in a fight to save your friends from him, because chances are, you will die if you do and Ichigo is supposed to be the savior. And, he didn't even save Inuoue either because, Ulquiorra interfered.

Discussing with you leads nowhere, you're too obstinate.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

I wouldn't be surprised if the next chapter was a bridging chapter that explains the origins of the top 4 being VL. I think a chapter like this is going to be required at least before Ulquiorra is defeated and/or it shifts back to Karakura because we need to know if the top 4 are VL so it gives some credibility to the top 3 when/if they defeat the captains (which IMO they will).

[mvlbrotherg]

Well as it currently stands. Yes it seems very possible that Ichigo's is quite outmatched with Ulliquora. There seems to be only 2 ways that he can get out of the situation. A. being the captains in Hueco Mundo aid him in his edeavor or B. this happens
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/2498/desktopbackgroundfi6.th.png (http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=desktopbackgroundfi6.png)

What I mean with choice B is Ichigo could gain more power since he never really finished his Vizard training and lastly there could be more to being a Vizard rather than just a mask. This is just an example.

[xPyrox]

You don't drag captains down to finish off trash that Ichigo couldn't finish off. If you drag the captains down to HM then it is my view that we should see the captains do something more than participate in trash fights. I guess you misunderstood me. The captains served a "purpose" if you want to be semantic, but so far that purpose has been far below any purpose that a 4 captains should be serving. In otherwords, I don't think captains should be serving a support role/clean-up role if they just have to be brought into HM. It's like passing to some unknown guy on the court when you have Michael Jordan on your team.

Another part of this is my belief that Ichigo technically shouldn't be able to beat Ulquiorra with what we have seen from him, but thats an entirely new can of worms. We'd have to discuss the possibility him gaining new powers and whether it's plotkai not, how much stronger he might have gotten from the Grimmjow fight, if Inoue could heal his lost reiatsu as well as his injuries, how strong Ulquiora really is, whats going on behind the relationship between Ulq and Inoue, how long can Ichigo really maintain his mask now, and a whole plethora of other things I am not up to debating right now.

Look at the bright side, we'll have an answer to 80% of this either this week or next week. I think we'll know pretty soon quick if Vaizard Ichigo is going capable of fighting a released Ulquiora, because it's my view that Ichigo will be down for the count in no more than 8 pages of the next chapter if he isn't strong enough to face released Ulquiora. I also suspect that Kubo might go back to the Karakura town fights, but I hope not....

I'm supposing you are forgetting the simple fact that, Bleach isn't real.

And therefore, if the captains HADN'T arrived, than ichigo and his friends would be dead.
End of Bleach.
They arrived because the plot needed them to arrive, I hardly think Bleach is deep enough for it to have an ideal like that behind the reason they were lured there.
I also don't think that Aizen knew that the captains would come into HM because of what he said to everyone in HM about him managing to lure 4 captains there, I don't think he intended to lure them COMPLETELY there, just that it was good luck that they came for him.

[plotkaislayer]

You don't drag captains down to finish off trash that Ichigo couldn't finish off. If you drag the captains down to HM then it is my view that we should see the captains do something more than participate in trash fights. I guess you misunderstood me. The captains served a "purpose" if you want to be semantic, but so far that purpose has been far below any purpose that a 4 captains should be serving. In otherwords, I don't think captains should be serving a support role/clean-up role if they just have to be brought into HM. It's like passing to some unknown guy on the court when you have Michael Jordan on your team.

Another part of this is my belief that Ichigo technically shouldn't be able to beat Ulquiorra with what we have seen from him, but thats an entirely new can of worms. We'd have to discuss the possibility him gaining new powers and whether it's plotkai not, how much stronger he might have gotten from the Grimmjow fight, if Inoue could heal his lost reiatsu as well as his injuries, how strong Ulquiora really is, whats going on behind the relationship between Ulq and Inoue, how long can Ichigo really maintain his mask now, and a whole plethora of other things I am not up to debating right now.

Look at the bright side, we'll have an answer to 80% of this either this week or next week. I think we'll know pretty soon quick if Vaizard Ichigo is going capable of fighting a released Ulquiora, because it's my view that Ichigo will be down for the count in no more than 8 pages of the next chapter if he isn't strong enough to face released Ulquiora. I also suspect that Kubo might go back to the Karakura town fights, but I hope not....

Understanding Bleach as a string of power-matches instead of a story leads to precisely this kind of analysis. Take more seriously the 7 sins, the previous encounters, the reason for vizard training, the show of strength Ichigo is performing. If you were only to measure current matches by the results of previous matches, then you end up with conclusions with "needs an immediate power-up." But what of the ensuing events? What of broader themes?

I'd type more, I hurt my hand yesterday. It kinda sucks to type :cry:

[He's a Mentalist]

Discussing with you leads nowhere, you're too obstinate.

It is more of an argument, not more of a casual discussion. I guess you expected me to adhere to your own reasoning without any rebuff? We were arguing. And, I think we are both obstinate. I think we both can agree that Ichigo will become an even better fighter as he continues to fight and train. We'll just agree to disagree on this, haha! :amused:

I'm supposing you are forgetting the simple fact that, Bleach isn't real.

And therefore, if the captains HADN'T arrived, than ichigo and his friends would be dead.
End of Bleach.

It would not necessarily be the end of Bleach, just the main character. Bleach could still continue if Ichigo were to die.

I also don't think that Aizen knew that the captains would come into HM because of what he said to everyone in HM about him managing to lure 4 captains there, I don't think he intended to lure them COMPLETELY there, just that it was good luck that they came for him.

I would like to agree with this. POS rep! :)

[plotkaislayer]

It would not necessarily be the end of Bleach, just the main character. Bleach could still continue if Ichigo were to die.

I sometimes think half the forum WANTS this to happen :rollseyes:

Also, Mentalist, you have to remember that some people don't approach these posts as arguments but just as discussion. It's important to know the difference between the two rather than treat everyone as your opponent on the Bleach equivalent of the O'Reilly Factior :tongue:

I wonder who would host that?

[Seanc]

It's very possible. Ulq might want Ichigo to win so he's one step closer to beating Aizen.

[Belial]

I have a hunch Ulq is trying to purposely draw out hichigo, permanetly. Then recruit him, and it also revealed orihime can't take that last blow to her psyche and willingly helps out hichigo which draws away the motivation to have his human side win, and that it was all part of the plan. Then yammi releases and they invite the captains to a rape party, or just open a portal and join in the fight in k town and still leave the other captains and ichigo's
crew still stranded.

Well, that's my theory anyway

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

I sometimes think half the forum WANTS this to happen :rollseyes:

Also, Mentalist, you have to remember that some people don't approach these posts as arguments but just as discussion. It's important to know the difference between the two rather than treat everyone as your opponent on the Bleach equivalent of the O'Reilly Factior :tongue:

I wonder who would host that?

I know I do lol But the sad part is that it won't happen simply because he's the main character and even if he died there would be some way that he would come back to save everyone (DBZ Buu saga much?).

[fakeobsession]

I have a hunch Ulq is trying to purposely draw out hichigo, permanetly. Then recruit him, and it also revealed orihime can't take that last blow to her psyche and willingly helps out hichigo which draws away the motivation to have his human side win, and that it was all part of the plan. Then yammi releases and they invite the captains to a rape party, or just open a portal and join in the fight in k town and still leave the other captains and ichigo's
crew still stranded.

Well, that's my theory anyway

:sarcasm: & then everyone dies...
lol.

Anyways,If Bitchigo dies,this would be the end of Bleach as it is based on his Shinigami's powers.
Except if you mean death in the real word & then goes to SS as real Shinigami.
So,if it is Ulquiorra loosing is because he is against the main character.

[Starzen]

Ichigo died when urahara chopped his chain of fate which is why he was becoming a hollow at that time. For me I believe or think ulq wants ichigo to stop caring about his friends and focus more on himself so that he can reach his potential and so that aizen can include him in his plan.

[bubbles]

Ichigo died when urahara chopped his chain of fate which is why he was becoming a hollow at that time. For me I believe or think ulq wants ichigo to stop caring about his friends and focus more on himself so that he can reach his potential and so that aizen can include him in his plan.

I disagree. Aizen is plenty strong, what does he needs Ichigo for? And since Ichigo is the main char in shounen manga, he CAN'T help the enemy, even if he threats his friends or whatever (not like freaking I'm-so-saint-I'll-sacrifice-myself-for-my-friends-though-obviously-they'll-get-killed-trying-to-rescue-me-since-I'm-too-much-of-a-coward-to-kill-myself-and-save-everyone-the-troubles-Inoue. The fact that so much force has been used just to save that one girl, powerful as she may be, makes me dislike her quite a bit, not to mention her power is a huge plot hole that makes everything meaningless, since she can revert everything she wants, and if that's not mary-sue syndrome, I dunno what is).

Also, Aizen is too smart to think that its a good idea strengthening his enemies, even if they are as weak as Ichigo (compared to Aizen, Ichigo isn't all to powerful, now is he?). Doing the whole "training someone to use his power later" routine always come back to bite your ass in the end, he won't take his chances just so he can see the development of somewhat unusual shinigami.

Sorry for the rant, Bleach is really pulling too much DBZ crap lately, it's driving me mad.

[afrotaito]

I disagree. Aizen is plenty strong, what does he needs Ichigo for? And since Ichigo is the main char in shounen manga, he CAN'T help the enemy, even if he threats his friends or whatever (not like freaking I'm-so-saint-I'll-sacrifice-myself-for-my-friends-though-obviously-they'll-get-killed-trying-to-rescue-me-since-I'm-too-much-of-a-coward-to-kill-myself-and-save-everyone-the-troubles-Inoue. The fact that so much force has been used just to save that one girl, powerful as she may be, makes me dislike her quite a bit, not to mention her power is a huge plot hole that makes everything meaningless, since she can revert everything she wants, and if that's not mary-sue syndrome, I dunno what is).

Also, Aizen is too smart to think that its a good idea strengthening his enemies, even if they are as weak as Ichigo (compared to Aizen, Ichigo isn't all to powerful, now is he?). Doing the whole "training someone to use his power later" routine always come back to bite your ass in the end, he won't take his chances just so he can see the development of somewhat unusual shinigami.

Sorry for the rant, Bleach is really pulling too much DBZ crap lately, it's driving me mad.

nah - ichigo fits into aizens plans some how, why else would ulquira be messing around with him when he could wipe him out easily. if you you remember in earlier chapters aizen sent him out to test out and report on ichigo's potential. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/198/12/ ulquiro belives ichigo can be taken to the dark side since he's having and internal power struggle. so ulquiro is just manipulating him. so the real battle is between ichigo and hichigo. so potenially the plan coud backfire, making the threat real for aizen.

[Starzen]

you do realize that ichigo is a perfect test subject for aizens life long search for a perfect new being he has been searching for and not only that, ichigo is evolving naturally too, the type of power aizen wants for himself.

[Aya]

why would anyone want to lose, let alone ulquirorra? ._.

this doesnt make sence

[bubbles]

nah - ichigo fits into aizens plans some how, why else would ulquira be messing around with him when he could wipe him out easily. if you you remember in earlier chapters aizen sent him out to test out and report on ichigo's potential. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/198/12/ ulquiro belives ichigo can be taken to the dark side since he's having and internal power struggle. so ulquiro is just manipulating him. so the real battle is between ichigo and hichigo. so potenially the plan coud backfire, making the threat real for aizen.

I dunno, maybe he's a bonus or something, even if his hollow will take over him, what makes Aizen think he'll come over to his side? And I still don't see what the hell does he need him for.

you do realize that ichigo is a perfect test subject for aizens life long search for a perfect new being he has been searching for and not only that, ichigo is evolving naturally too, the type of power aizen wants for himself.

Err 0_0 No,he isn't, he's no perfect life being, just a talented shinigami.He might have been originally human, and his father is a shinigami, but kubo tite seemed to have forgotten about that bit (unless he's saving it for some dramatic moment?), but basically he's a normal vizard. If he's interested in vaizrds, he can go ahead and kidnap them or something, nothing unique about Ichigo. And while Ichigo is rapidly growing in power, its no something that unusual-look at Hitsugaya, he's the youngest captain ever, a child genius, how come Aizen isn't trying to seduce him to the dark side?
If Aizen is interested in Ichigo because of his ability to catch on fast, he's not as smart as he looks.

[a3m43th]

I disagree. Aizen is plenty strong, what does he needs Ichigo for? And since Ichigo is the main char in shounen manga, he CAN'T help the enemy, even if he threats his friends or whatever (not like freaking I'm-so-saint-I'll-sacrifice-myself-for-my-friends-though-obviously-they'll-get-killed-trying-to-rescue-me-since-I'm-too-much-of-a-coward-to-kill-myself-and-save-everyone-the-troubles-Inoue. The fact that so much force has been used just to save that one girl, powerful as she may be, makes me dislike her quite a bit, not to mention her power is a huge plot hole that makes everything meaningless, since she can revert everything she wants, and if that's not mary-sue syndrome, I dunno what is).

Also, Aizen is too smart to think that its a good idea strengthening his enemies, even if they are as weak as Ichigo (compared to Aizen, Ichigo isn't all to powerful, now is he?). Doing the whole "training someone to use his power later" routine always come back to bite your ass in the end, he won't take his chances just so he can see the development of somewhat unusual shinigami.

Sorry for the rant, Bleach is really pulling too much DBZ crap lately, it's driving me mad.

Aizen needs Ichigo in his plans for one simple reason.. He has the potential to become stronger then him.. How long has he been a shinigami? 1 month before coming to SS few days there and then HM.. That's 2,5 months tops and he's already surpassed low tier captain lvl.. Give Ichigo a year and Aizen has no chance at all against him. And that's the reason Aizen needs to either kill him or take him to his side.

[Starzen]

a vizard is a shinigamy who obtained hollow powers but ichigo was never a shinigamy but a human instead who transformed into what he is today as in he got shinigamy and hollow powers at the same time. big difference there my friend. besides there is a good reason why aizen is still doing his research.

[afrotaito]

Aizen needs Ichigo in his plans for one simple reason.. He has the potential to become stronger then him.. How long has he been a shinigami? 1 month before coming to SS few days there and then HM.. That's 2,5 months tops and he's already surpassed low tier captain lvl.. Give Ichigo a year and Aizen has no chance at all against him. And that's the reason Aizen needs to either kill him or take him to his side.

we all saw what would happen if the hollow wins during ichigos hollification with the vizards. the consequences were so great that they were prepared to kill him. now seen as a vizard has the best of both worlds, but the sane shinigami is always incontrol, what happens when the insane hollo takes over? he would probably fight for the cause of the hollows rather than shinigami, hence aizens cause. also it was stated that aizen would need about 10 vaso lorde to doom soul society, now nothing suggest he has near that number. so ichigo is then a potential recruit, probably warranting the risks of letting him get stronger.

[darkp]

Well ı dont think ; someone like Aizen would take the risk to recruit ichigo, who could surpass Aizen himself like in those theories.

[Paragon]

Aizen probably does not believe Ichigo would surpass him and even if Ichigo does come close to reaching that stage he'd simply eliminate him nice and early. He'd definitely be keeping more than one eye on Ichigo should he defeat Ulquiorra thats for sure.

[a3m43th]

we all saw what would happen if the hollow wins during ichigos hollification with the vizards. the consequences were so great that they were prepared to kill him. now seen as a vizard has the best of both worlds, but the sane shinigami is always incontrol, what happens when the insane hollo takes over? he would probably fight for the cause of the hollows rather than shinigami, hence aizens cause. also it was stated that aizen would need about 10 vaso lorde to doom soul society, now nothing suggest he has near that number. so ichigo is then a potential recruit, probably warranting the risks of letting him get stronger.
i agree except for one thing.. during ichigo's inner fight the hollow vaizard fought wasn't full powered. both ichigo and hichigo were in the inner world the one fighting was just a beast true power of hichigo is still unclear he has to take control of ichigo's body just like he did with byakuya. he could talk back then, but during inner fight that beast just attacked everyone randomly

[afrotaito]

Well ı dont think ; someone like Aizen would take the risk to recruit ichigo, who could surpass Aizen himself like in those theories.

well if he cant find enough vasto lorde, he might have to- that was my point

[bubbles]

Ugh, I suppose Ichigo does fits into Aizen plan, if only because he's the main char in shouen manga, but that's soooo lame. I hate the whole "evil dude makes the hero powerful for his own goals but ohnoes! the hero get too powerful and pwn his ass" twist. While I really want someone to kick Aizen in the nuts (GO HIYORI SANDAL SLAP! *sigh* I REALLY love Hiyori, I woulda killed Aizen just for her, who cares about random japanese town anyway? Maybe Aizen will be a good king, has anyone considered given him a chance?)

[plotkaislayer]

Ugh, I suppose Ichigo does fits into Aizen plan, if only because he's the main char in shouen manga, but that's soooo lame. I hate the whole "evil dude makes the hero powerful for his own goals but ohnoes! the hero get too powerful and pwn his ass" twist. While I really want someone to kick Aizen in the nuts (GO HIYORI SANDAL SLAP! *sigh* I REALLY love Hiyori, I woulda killed Aizen just for her, who cares about random japanese town anyway? Maybe Aizen will be a good king, has anyone considered given him a chance?)

Don't get mad at speculation like it's true. And after 207, I think I've seen enough Hiyori hi-jinx to last me months.

[bubbles]

There's never enough Hiyori! Like I've said many times-if I had a *beep* I'd totally *beep* her because she rocks <3
And I'm horrified even at the thought of another generic shounen twist in bleach, I got too much of that crap *coughinouecouh* already. And it's bad enough the whole war kinda looks kinda sloppy-what, Aizen is so weak Gotei 13 can afford to fight without some of it most powerful (if somewhat mentally disturbed) captains? "Oh, we don't need Kenpachi, the only captain to ever become a captain without Bankai, we can afford to send him to save some little kiddo from the heart of the enemy's territory. Byakuya and Mayuri? Oh, screw them, not like they're that good anyway, let's go ahead and take the chance of losing them in a random fight with a random espada. And while we're at it, why not send the captain and vice captain of our healing squad to the field, to heal our enemies and people who are not even shinigami? Surely we won't need their prowess in healing in the GREAT FINAL STAND we're gonna have!"

[fakeobsession]

Aizen probably does not believe Ichigo would surpass him and even if Ichigo does come close to reaching that stage he'd simply eliminate him nice and early. He'd definitely be keeping more than one eye on Ichigo should he defeat Ulquiorra thats for sure.

Ulquiorra almost killed Ichigo in his unreleased state.& now I wonder how can Ichigo in so little time,without training & barely fighting to be improved so much that he can beat Ulqui & surpass Aizen!geez...KT has better to think something else.The only person that maybe can take Ulqui is Hitchigo.

[Yayap]

I think The Wrath made it a lot less likely that Ulquiorra wants to lose, if not entirely rule the idea out. Well, for me anyway it's no longer even an option. But there is still something to be explained about how Ulquiorra has been acting here.

[fakeobsession]

Of course.It is clear now that the only reason that Ulquiorra was holding back 'till now is that he wants to prove him that he(Ichi) is no match for him.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-359-page-12.html
It is obvious.

[bubbles]

Ugh, Ulq was all cool and everything, and in the end he's just another "I'm so good and I'm going to show you ha ha, do your worse so you'll see how pathetic you are compared to me, lalala I'm a battle psycho" (aka Kenpachi). And I really liked Ulq too...

[afrotaito]

Of course.It is clear now that the only reason that Ulquiorra was holding back 'till now is that he wants to prove him that he(Ichi) is no match for him.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-359-page-12.html
It is obvious.

i still maintain that ulquiorra is trying to get ichigos hollow to take over and this latests attempt is him trying to draw out more of the hollow. in earlier chapters where ichigo has was getting hollified he conceded that the more he uses getsuga (which is "his attack" meaning hichigos) the more he loses control. because in all seriousness ichigo should be dead by now seeing the power difference and if you already are 100% sure your stronger than some one why would you wanna test him out. personnaly i see this happening where ichigo loses control and that annoying inhoue become useful and gets him back, hopefully by sacracficing herself.

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

Ugh, Ulq was all cool and everything, and in the end he's just another "I'm so good and I'm going to show you ha ha, do your worse so you'll see how pathetic you are compared to me, lalala I'm a battle psycho" (aka Kenpachi). And I really liked Ulq too...

But that's why he's soo cool lol And wtf? Kenpachi isn't like that at all.

It's obvious to me that Ulquiorra wanted Ichigo to feel completely and utterly helpless before defeating him, hence why he wanted Ichigo to use GT and showed how despite him being able to keep his mask longer it was still easily shatted by Ulquiorra.

[plotkaislayer]

Equating Ulq. as a "battle psycho" like Kenpachi is hilariously wrong. I'm sorry the battle isn't going the way you like it, and I suppose I get why you're disappointed. However, Ulq. is an enemy, and he hasn't pretended to be anything else. Sorry he didn't become the new hero of Bleach..? ^_^

[McFlyan]

I think The Wrath made it a lot less likely that Ulquiorra wants to lose, if not entirely rule the idea out. Well, for me anyway it's no longer even an option. But there is still something to be explained about how Ulquiorra has been acting here.

I gotta agree with you there, it seems like Ulquiorra is trying to crush Ichigo's resolve in one fell swoop (get it, he's got wings!).

[camarofan2008]

I really don't see any problem in the battle so far besides having those two psycho bitches pop up again early on, but good all Yammy took care of them lol. I can agree that Ulquiorra wants to push Ichigo to his limit but I would disagree he wants to lose because of that. There is really no point in fighting someone when you know they are weaker than you or are holding back their true strength.

[fakeobsession]

i still maintain that ulquiorra is trying to get ichigos hollow to take over and this latests attempt is him trying to draw out more of the hollow. in earlier chapters where ichigo has was getting hollified he conceded that the more he uses getsuga (which is "his attack" meaning hichigos) the more he loses control. because in all seriousness ichigo should be dead by now seeing the power difference and if you already are 100% sure your stronger than some one why would you wanna test him out. personnaly i see this happening where ichigo loses control and that annoying inhoue become useful and gets him back, hopefully by sacracficing herself.

Wait a moment.When Ichigo uses Hitchigo's strength,he uses it in full power right?
I mean now that he learned how to control it, & maintains it longer means that even if Hichigo comes to surface,his power will be equal to Ichigo's....right?
Ulquiorra wants to make Ichigo use Getsuga to show him that Ichi's lvl is far behind his own.
Cause when Ichigo met again Ulquiorra was all the way confident.Ulqui noticed that he is stronger now,but wants to prove that there is no comparison.

[Captain Abarai]

Yea. Ulquiorra wants to feel the extent of power he felt fluctuating in Ichigo in KT. This is why he pressures him for his strongest forms Bankai, Mask, use the strongest attack...IE Getsuga, hopefully to draw it out, but Ulquiorra is forever dissapointed.

But on the contrast. Ichigo felt GOOD because he probably feels some sort of progress to face *unreleased* Ulquiorra and not collapse in fear, burst towards him in rage, he can see his sword, he's one, and Ulquiorra's one.

Sure that kind of growth is great. But. This is NOT what Ulquiorra has in mind..he cares nothing about Ichigo seeing his sword for an instant, or being able to scratch him.

Ulquiorra wants to see that power he felt in KT that rose above his.

"I'll" show you that your best can do nothing to me. That's his attitude, a reflex to prove to himself some lowly human can't defeat him, YET he wants to see that power for himself.

Remember Hollow are fear based existences so this mindset lurks deep..but this is also FEAR! There's a duality here IMHO.

[fakeobsession]

Remember Hollow are fear based existences so this mindset lurks deep..but this is also FEAR! There's a duality here IMHO.

Fear?He & the other top Espadas seem pretty confident to me....

[He's a Mentalist]

They are afraid of Aizen. It is my belief that they aren't following Aizen because Aizen does not show fear. If that is the case then arrancars are weak-minded creatures (if that is the only reason). They are following him because of his power, not only that, but because of the HG. Even Stark showed discontent with Aizen wanting him to snatch Orihime. He knew he had to follow the orders or there would be repercussions for his actions. That indicates fear. I agree with Abarai.

[Captain Abarai]

They are afraid of Aizen. It is my belief that they aren't following Aizen because Aizen does not show fear. If that is the case then arrancars are weak-minded creatures (if that is the only reason). They are following him because of his power, not only that, but because of the HG. Even Stark showed discontent with Aizen wanting him to snatch Orihime. He knew he had to follow the orders or there would be repercussions for his actions. That indicates fear. I agree with Abarai.

Thanks Mentalist. Yea. Aizen shows no fear because he's powerful. *and wickedly cunning*. They don't want be on the wrong side of their *God* because they will be dealt with. Fear.

Fear?He & the other top Espadas seem pretty confident to me....

Sure. Cause they the resident alpha males.

But as we've seen with the other Espada under #4, there's always talk of their ability being superior of some sort. Zommori's Amor can control the sovereignty of all it sees also being the fastest Espada, Nnoitra's strongest Hierro, Szayel, just bein Szayel, AA's arrogance that he's the only Espada to continue growing by consuming POST conversion to Arrancar...etc

But when there's that one that surpasses their initial claims, they fall apart and start babbling nonsense, rejecting reality and all sorts of unsightly behavior.

Byakuya destroyed Zommori's concept of control and sovereignty and Zommori fell apart once his fate was evident. Mayuri shattered Szayel's manipulation and analytical mind. Kenpachi sliced through Nnoitra's concept of him being the strongest... "a mere shinigami".

[Pixie_]

They are afraid of Aizen. It is my belief that they aren't following Aizen because Aizen does not show fear. If that is the case then arrancars are weak-minded creatures (if that is the only reason). They are following him because of his power, not only that, but because of the HG. Even Stark showed discontent with Aizen wanting him to snatch Orihime. He knew he had to follow the orders or there would be repercussions for his actions. That indicates fear. I agree with Abarai.

As pumpkin stated, they follow Aizen cause he offers them a united front against the Shinigamis and HG.

In my opinion Stark is probably a lot stronger then Aizen.

[sercia]

As pumpkin stated, they follow Aizen cause he offers them a united front against the Shinigamis and HG.

In my opinion Stark is probably a lot stronger then Aizen.

agreed, probably barragan and halibel too

[Pixie_]

agreed, probably barragan and halibel too

I don't think Barragan and Halibel are stronger then Aizen. But I think the power gap between Stark and the rest of the Espada is like the power gap between Renji and Ulquiorra.

[Yoh Yoh]

As pumpkin stated, they follow Aizen cause he offers them a united front against the Shinigamis and HG.

What Aizen offers them is a united front against anything he doesn't like, not against the Shinigami. The Hollows didn't even need a 'united front' until Aizen showed up; if it wasn't for Aizen, there would be no Shinigami waltzing into HM intending to kill and none of the Hollow fighting in Karakura Town would have to be there fighting Aizen's battle either lol.

Obviously what Iceringer said is indeed the only reason why Aizen's followed by them. Probably a little admiration too. If that wasn't the case, the current Arrancar would probably do away with Aizen and govern HM themselves.

[PervySage12]

I don't think Barragan and Halibel are stronger then Aizen. But I think the power gap between Stark and the rest of the Espada is like the power gap between Renji and Ulquiorra.

lol I hope its not that extreme or everyone's gonna die but Im sure its close.

agreed, probably barragan and halibel too

I dont mean to be rude (seriously this aint personal) but i think this is the dumbest post Ive read in the whole forum. I would be shocked if Barragan or Halibel were as strong as Tosen or Gin. Let me jack Pixie's swag and say that IMO the gap btwn Aizen and the espada is like comparing the experience of Lex Steele to someone who thinks boobs feel like bags of sand. The 3 traitor shinigami are bad as hell and Aizen...well Komamura puts it best
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/07/

[Yoh Yoh]

I would be shocked if Barragan or Halibel were as strong as Tosen or Gin.

Really? Why?

Based on what we've actually seen, I look at it like this:

Barragan > Halibel > Ulq > Ichigo > Kenpachi > Nnoitra & Tousen

To be honest I'd be shocked if Tousen could get Ulq to release. :tongue: I think Aizen's interest in Tousen is mainly because of something other than power.

And we know pretty much nothing of Gin's capabilites other than that he doesn't need to take Hitsugaya seriously in a fight. But then, who does? :tongue:

[Pixie_]

lol I hope its not that extreme or everyone's gonna die but Im sure its close.


I dont mean to be rude (seriously this aint personal) but i think this is the dumbest post Ive read in the whole forum. I would be shocked if Barragan or Halibel were as strong as Tosen or Gin. Let me jack Pixie's swag and say that IMO the gap btwn Aizen and the espada is like comparing the experience of Lex Steele to someone who thinks boobs feel like bags of sand. The 3 traitor shinigami are bad as hell and Aizen...well Komamura puts it best
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/07/


Aizen wants to invade the Kings Dimension, kill the king and take his throne. In order to do that he first needs to fight the Zero Squad, which members are promoted captains, I.G A full division of high tier captains. The captain over the Zero Squad will probably be stronger then Yama-Jii himself.

So how can Aizen be so confident? My guess is probably that Arrancar Stark has powers beyond peoples imagenation. How would he otherwise stand a chance versus the Zero Squad?

[Afrojack]

I doubt the leader of the Royal Guard is stronger than Yama. People think of him simply as the strongest captain, but he's more than that. He's the Commander General, meaning that he is probably the strongest Shinigami, being the leader of the army, the war chief. The only one who I think could be stronger, is the king, but it could also be a political thing, like with the Central 46, whom Yama takes orders from, but could slay in one second. As far as plain combat strength, who's going to outmatch the Commander General, the leader of your fighting force?

tl;dr: General > Secret Service.

OT, I don't think Ulq wanted to die, he just didn't want to kill Ichigo yet. People saying he could have beheaded him, no he couldn't have, that's why he got blocked. Perhaps that move can't be used in quick succession? Who knows, but Ulq explicitly states that he was blocked, not that he chose not to behead Ichigo.

[Pixie_]

I doubt the leader of the Royal Guard is stronger than Yama. People think of him simply as the strongest captain, but he's more than that. He's the Commander General, meaning that he is probably the strongest Shinigami, being the leader of the army, the war chief. The only one who I think could be stronger, is the king, but it could also be a political thing, like with the Central 46, whom Yama takes orders from, but could slay in one second. As far as plain combat strength, who's going to outmatch the Commander General, the leader of your fighting force?

tl;dr: General > Secret Service.

OT, I don't think Ulq wanted to die, he just didn't want to kill Ichigo yet. People saying he could have beheaded him, no he couldn't have, that's why he got blocked. Perhaps that move can't be used in quick succession? Who knows, but Ulq explicitly states that he was blocked, not that he chose not to behead Ichigo.

Yes, Yama-Jii is the Captain Commander, but the King stands above him. The king is protected by the Zero Squad, which members are high tier captains. Yama-Jii is without a doubt very strong, but I believe the captain over the Zero division is stronger mainly because they protect the King, which Yama-Jii serves. You could even define the Zero Squad as the Royal Guard? And the Royal Captain Commander(The captain over the Zero Squad) should be stronger then Yama-Jii.

And Yama-Jii is only Captain-Commander over 1-13, there might be a reason why he isn't captain over the Zero Squad as well? And the reason people think Yama-Jii is the strongest Shinigami existing is because none knows anything about the Zero Squad, except ofcourse that that's where promoted captains ends up.

The King has many dimensions, Soul Society being one of them. If I remember correctly Yama-Jii said he didn't care a lot about Soul Society, right? So he leaves Yama-Jii in charge of something he doesn't care a lot about; that doesn't exactly prove that Yama-Jii is the strongest Shinigami.

Any comments?

[Afrojack]

In the manga it states that Yamamoto's zan boasts the strongest attack power, that is my chief criteria. Even excluding that though, it's not like we have proof that the Zero Squad is the strongest, only that a captain was promoted to it. There's no way of knowing how powerful that captain was or if it was a select set of skills perhaps that warranted the position. No where does it say that captain is particularly strong.

Also, there's the fact that the King is hidden away, while the Gotei 13 are the defensive and offensive force of SS. Their specific task is combat proficiency, so I doubt they would expend their greatest power guarding a king who is, at least for the moment, perfectly safe, instead of putting the best fighters in the actual military force of SS. I'm almost sure the captain of the Royal Guard is stronger than most any other captain besides Yama, but it makes no sense not to have the strongest soul heading up your army.

People assume that because these people guard the king that they're more powerful, but the greatest defense of the king is that you need a key to get to him. The chief goal would be to stop the key from being made, meaning that you have your strongest forces dedicated to prevent it from happening.

The Gotei 13 is the designated military combat force, the army. Their specific purpose is to fight. So, IMO, it stands to reason that the commander of that force, boasting the greatest power, is probably the most formidable fighter there is besides perhaps, like I said, the king himself.

tl;dr: Strongest fighter fronts the army abroad, not the guard detail at home.

[Pixie_]

In the manga it states that Yamamoto's zan boasts the strongest attack power, that is my chief criteria. Even excluding that though, it's not like we have proof that the Zero Squad is the strongest, only that a captain was promoted to it. There's no way of knowing how powerful that captain was or if it was a select set of skills perhaps that warranted the position. No where does it say that captain is particularly strong.

Also, there's the fact that the King is hidden away, while the Gotei 13 are the defensive and offensive force of SS. Their specific task is combat proficiency, so I doubt they would expend their greatest power guarding a king who is, at least for the moment, perfectly safe, instead of putting the best fighters in the actual military force of SS. I'm almost sure the captain of the Royal Guard is stronger than most any other captain besides Yama, but it makes no sense not to have the strongest soul heading up your army.

People assume that because these people guard the king that they're more powerful, but the greatest defense of the king is that you need a key to get to him. The chief goal would be to stop the key from being made, meaning that you have your strongest forces dedicated to prevent it from happening.

The Gotei 13 is the designated military combat force, the army. Their specific purpose is to fight. So, IMO, it stands to reason that the commander of that force, boasting the greatest power, is probably the most formidable fighter there is besides perhaps, like I said, the king himself.

tl;dr: Strongest fighter fronts the army abroad, not the guard detail at home.

We should really stop saying 'SS'

Either way, Yama-Jii's Zanpankuto has been praised to have the greatest attack power, but that doesn't necessarily make him the best and most useful fighter, also. Since none knows anything about the King, his dimension, the royal Guards, it's impossible to say that Yama actually is the strongest; and true, you need the Key to enter the dimension. But, what you don't seem to include in your theory is, true Yama commands Soul Society, But wouldn't the king want someone even stronger to guard his own home and his life?

We do know (95%)for SURE that the Zero Squads members are high tier captains or beings that can be compared to high tier captains.

The Zero squad is obviously the strongest squad? correct?

[PervySage12]

Really? Why?

Based on what we've actually seen, I look at it like this:

Barragan > Halibel > Ulq > Ichigo > Kenpachi > Nnoitra & Tousen

To be honest I'd be shocked if Tousen could get Ulq to release. :tongue: I think Aizen's interest in Tousen is mainly because of something other than power.

And we know pretty much nothing of Gin's capabilites other than that he doesn't need to take Hitsugaya seriously in a fight. But then, who does? :tongue:

I could ask you the same thing. What makes you put Tousen equal to Nnoitra, who wasnt very strong. I might accept an argument based on the fact that Aizen only wanted Tousen on his side because he is the only one immune to Aizen's hypnosis, but even that doesnt explain y u would insult Kaname that way. Based on what Ive seen Tousen, aided greatly by the element of surprise, took out two seated officers lieutenant and captain of the 9th division. He is also exemplary at kidou. A good example is how easily he performed Tenteikuura with one arm compared to sexy a$$ Isane http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/172/06/. I think u r really underestimating Tousen both in strength and importance as a character. As far as Gin is concerned Ukitake said he was a genius, the likes of which they hadn't seen, that graduated the academy in a yr. Well, hadnt seen since Kaien but even he didnt obtain a numbered position immediately. Gin hunted down and murdered the 3rd seat of the 5th division without breaking a sweat. And that was right after he graduated from the academy. Now over 100 yrs later what makes you think he isnt one of the baddest mofos around?

Yes, Yama-Jii is the Captain Commander, but the King stands above him. The king is protected by the Zero Squad, which members are high tier captains. Yama-Jii is without a doubt very strong, but I believe the captain over the Zero division is stronger mainly because they protect the King, which Yama-Jii serves. You could even define the Zero Squad as the Royal Guard? And the Royal Captain Commander(The captain over the Zero Squad) should be stronger then Yama-Jii.

And Yama-Jii is only Captain-Commander over 1-13, there might be a reason why he isn't captain over the Zero Squad as well? And the reason people think Yama-Jii is the strongest Shinigami existing is because none knows anything about the Zero Squad, except ofcourse that that's where promoted captains ends up.

The King has many dimensions, Soul Society being one of them. If I remember correctly Yama-Jii said he didn't care a lot about Soul Society, right? So he leaves Yama-Jii in charge of something he doesn't care a lot about; that doesn't exactly prove that Yama-Jii is the strongest Shinigami.

Any comments?

Yea nothing said that a promotion to the ZS was for the strongest shinigami. Nothing about how they described Hikifune makes me think she was stronger than Yama. In her case it seemed more like a retirement plan. I know y u would assume the ZS is stronger because they protect the King but y would he have all of the strongest shinigami in a realm that cant be reached. Either way Im not saying u r wrong but i dont think u should place so much on the fact that the ZS is full of ppl more powerful than Yama. And there is a nice long thread about the topic already.

The Zero Squad Thread http://forums.bleachexile.com/showthread.php?t=24545&page=46

[Afrojack]

@Pixie:

You have absolutely no proof that promotion to Zero Squad is based solely on combat prowess, or at least nothing to say they are in the realm of the higher tier of captains.

95% is a bullshit number you pulled out as a way of saying that there's no proof for anything of the sort, because if there was it would be 100%.

The Zero Squad is the squad that guards the King, yes, and perhaps they are above the average captain, but there's no reason that the General of the Gotei Thirteen shouldn't be the strongest (besides the king). If people were getting promoted based on power, Yamamoto would be in there and someone else would be heading up the Gotei, but that isn't the case because the Gotei is the military of SS, and that's where most of the power is and where the strongest warrior leads that force.

This shouldn't even be an issue, for while the assumption that the Zero Squad is above Yamamoto is pure speculation, we have in the manga a rather concrete statement saying that Yamamoto's zan boasts the strongest attack power, he has obviously mastered kendo, shunpo, and most likely Kido and Hakuda as well, while the stat book lists him as 100 in everything except stamina, which is obviously not really an issue if he can fight the most powerful tag team in SS, another canon example.

I can understand having a higher tier of guards, but nowhere near Yamamoto, because the best General heads the army, the "strongest". In the real world, those are the best strategical leaders, in Bleach, it's the most badass old man on the block, the strongest of all Shinigami, again, besides maybe the king.

Sorry for off-topicness.

[Exrage]

Hmm... I don't think Ulquiorra wants to lose, just fight someone worth fighting. I mean, if you get to a certain level of power after a while you start to wonder if there's anything higher- I think that's the human nature in all of us. Ichigo's probably the only REAL opponent he's gotten to face in a long time, so I think he's going to provoke him every last step of the way. You look at a lot of insanely powerful villains and fighters in anime and they all seem to have that quirk, they just want to be challenged to the full extent of their skills so bad that they handicap themselves. Well Ulquiorra isn't handicapping himself at all, but he's not instantly unleashing his power and ending it either. Someone like that would only hold back if either a) they're not done proving a point/playing with something or b) they can't kill it and know it or were ordered not to. Guess we'll just have to see how it plays out.

As for Yama... that's a tough question. Being a commander-general usually means there's a rank above it, meaning a legitimate "general" with no additional phrase or addition to the title. But seeing's how the entire world ends up in Seireitei when they die, it's safe to assume there isn't another Gotei or there would have to be another source of souls that's different from the current (different dimensions/planets... it's not like anime HASN'T gone there before so if it comes up later wouldn't be too surprised). So taking what has been said and released from the manga we know only of one other military branch and that's the royal guard that recruited a captain from the Gotei 13 during the 'Pendulum' releases.

So if you take that into account, a full army is pretty much assembled. The king's special troops or "royal guard" that consist of the best that have ever lived/died, the Gotei 13 and it's 13 divisions which cover everything a military unit would focus on from Research & Development to recon to overall power, and then the remainder of the spirit world. Only thing I can think of when I look at it like that is that the Office of 46 is nothing more than those the King put into the designation of "governing the masses" while the Gotei 13 is the military arm of the law. Look through history and you see this is often how things are run.

So I'll leave with this: the Royal Guard is often what historically ends up housing the best fighters and thinkers a nation can develop. Yamamoto Genryuusai's probably the general in charge of the 'regular' forces, so I would imagine he merely fulfills the King's wish which is to serve the Office of 46. By NO means does that mean Yama-jii's not as or more powerful than the Royal Guard, just that the king saw fit to make him the commander of the vast Gotei 13. Typically speaking, the King is the one appointed by God or the one with the most firepower to make those around them bend their knees in obedience. The way Bleach is going I wouldn't be surprised if either ends up the case.

[Afrojack]

That I can agree with. It's clear that there's a high caliber grade unit in order to guard and serve the king, but with Yama heading the combat forces, one would have to assume that at least in that area, he would surpass most anyone besides the king, who would be the legitimate "General" you mentioned, in that he directs the branches of SS's government. The reason I say this is because it is obvious that Yamamoto Genryuusai is ridiculously powerful, to the point of trouncing what is acknowledged as the best two person combat team in SS. Any one of the moves he used on Allon could have been used on beings and easily be one hit kills. Being on that much of a higher level suggests that his position at the head of the Gotei forces is more of a symbol. He is obviously far beyond any captain, yet he heads up the military force as the strongest of all warriors, excepting the king, to set a standard, a high mark, and manage the affairs of the military.

So while the Royal Guard is probably an elite unit, IMO, people like Shunsui, Ukitake, and Yama-jii would stand as the pinnacle of war skills, being the Top 3 powers of SS's military force.

[Yoh Yoh]

I could ask you the same thing. What makes you put Tousen equal to Nnoitra, who wasnt very strong.

Okay, for starters I never said and do not believe Tousen is "equal to Nnoitra".

Not very strong? Well he's the most powerful Adjuchas in the series so far and don't say "How do you know the top 4 aren't Adjuchas?" cause you know they're not.

I think u r really underestimating Tousen both in strength and importance as a character.

I have yet to say anything about Tousen's importance as a character. A character's importance isn't based on their power.

As far as Gin is concerned Ukitake said he was a genius, the likes of which they hadn't seen, that graduated the academy in a yr.

Hitsugaya's considered a "boy genius" and is the youngest Shinigami to ever become a captain. It means nothing. Well it doesn't reflect on power levels, anyway.

Gin hunted down and murdered the 3rd seat of the 5th division without breaking a sweat.

Since Renji's more powerful than a 3rd seat and couldn't take Szayel Aporro (even with Ishida's aid), that's irrelevant to our discussion.

Now over 100 yrs later what makes you think he isnt one of the baddest mofos around?

Because if you're one of those people who believe the characters in the series are constantly growing more powerful as time goes by, surely you'd assume they all are and so 100 years passing would make no difference to how Gin compares to the Gotei 13 captains and in turn, the Espada. I'm assuming you're not retarded and therefore didn't have a prediction on how much more powerful each character's getting as time goes by.

[Pixie_]

I could ask you the same thing. What makes you put Tousen equal to Nnoitra, who wasnt very strong. I might accept an argument based on the fact that Aizen only wanted Tousen on his side because he is the only one immune to Aizen's hypnosis, but even that doesnt explain y u would insult Kaname that way. Based on what Ive seen Tousen, aided greatly by the element of surprise, took out two seated officers lieutenant and captain of the 9th division. He is also exemplary at kidou. A good example is how easily he performed Tenteikuura with one arm compared to sexy a$$ Isane http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/172/06/. I think u r really underestimating Tousen both in strength and importance as a character. As far as Gin is concerned Ukitake said he was a genius, the likes of which they hadn't seen, that graduated the academy in a yr. Well, hadnt seen since Kaien but even he didnt obtain a numbered position immediately. Gin hunted down and murdered the 3rd seat of the 5th division without breaking a sweat. And that was right after he graduated from the academy. Now over 100 yrs later what makes you think he isnt one of the baddest mofos around?



Yea nothing said that a promotion to the ZS was for the strongest shinigami. Nothing about how they described Hikifune makes me think she was stronger than Yama. In her case it seemed more like a retirement plan. I know y u would assume the ZS is stronger because they protect the King but y would he have all of the strongest shinigami in a realm that cant be reached. Either way Im not saying u r wrong but i dont think u should place so much on the fact that the ZS is full of ppl more powerful than Yama. And there is a nice long thread about the topic already.

The Zero Squad Thread http://forums.bleachexile.com/showthread.php?t=24545&page=46

I did not say all the captains in the Zero Squad are more powerful them Yama-Jii, obviously they are not. I'm saying the captain over the Zero Squad is.

"but y would he have all of the strongest shinigami in a realm that cant be reached." Is the stupid, it can be reached, and if it couldn't be reached why have the Zero Squad there to protect the king in the first place?


@Pixie:

You have absolutely no proof that promotion to Zero Squad is based solely on combat prowess, or at least nothing to say they are in the realm of the higher tier of captains.

95% is a bullshit number you pulled out as a way of saying that there's no proof for anything of the sort, because if there was it would be 100%.

The Zero Squad is the squad that guards the King, yes, and perhaps they are above the average captain, but there's no reason that the General of the Gotei Thirteen shouldn't be the strongest (besides the king). If people were getting promoted based on power, Yamamoto would be in there and someone else would be heading up the Gotei, but that isn't the case because the Gotei is the military of SS, and that's where most of the power is and where the strongest warrior leads that force.

This shouldn't even be an issue, for while the assumption that the Zero Squad is above Yamamoto is pure speculation, we have in the manga a rather concrete statement saying that Yamamoto's zan boasts the strongest attack power, he has obviously mastered kendo, shunpo, and most likely Kido and Hakuda as well, while the stat book lists him as 100 in everything except stamina, which is obviously not really an issue if he can fight the most powerful tag team in SS, another canon example.

I can understand having a higher tier of guards, but nowhere near Yamamoto, because the best General heads the army, the "strongest". In the real world, those are the best strategical leaders, in Bleach, it's the most badass old man on the block, the strongest of all Shinigami, again, besides maybe the king.

Sorry for off-topicness.

And you seem to have misunderstood me as well. I'm not saying that the whole Zero Squad is made out of captains stronger then Yama-Jii, I'm saying the squad is made out of captains at Shunsui's level or maybe higher? I'm saying the captain over the Zero Squad, the squad you get promoted to when you're stronger then necessary to stay at Soul Society, and so you won't bring up more unrelated excuses to why I'm wrong, I'm not saying Hikifune is stronger then Yama-Jii, obviously Yama-Jii needs to be stronger then everyone in Soul Society to command them, but I would guess Hikifune were/is on about the same level as the current high tier captains (Unohana , Shunsui)

But since Yama commands Soul Society he needs to be the strongest, and since the captain over the Zero Squad commands, well; the Zero Squad that are made out of high tier captains, he needs to be stronger then them AND on top of that he is responseble for the Kings & his dimensions safety,

"I can understand having a higher tier of guards, but nowhere near Yamamoto, because the best General heads the army, the "strongest". In the real world, those are the best strategical leaders"

One of the best strategical minds was Erwin Rommel, he was one of Hitlers closest men. For someone like the king, it would seem logic to have the strongest close to him, wouldn't it? If Soul Society falls, they are the last front to defend the King's throne and the life of the King.

So you're saying it doesn't make sense to have the strongest one protect you?
It's a difference between the Royal Guard, and the army he puts in a dimension he doesn't care a lot about.

Jeez..

[Afrojack]

Well it's fine that you disagree, though the neg rep was uncalled for. I don't think I'll continue this in here, as it's obvious that I'm arguing with people who say "You dumb person."

Rommel was right in the thick of the war, so what you said supports my point. The SS king is nothing like Hitler because he wants nothing to do with the war. But you're right, Rommel was heading up the war effort because he was the best, just like Yammoto is the strongest, and so commands the military dealing with the war. You put your best foot forward, as simple as that.

Lol,

"I'm saying the captain over the Zero Squad, the squad you get promoted to when you're stronger then necessary to stay at Soul Society, and so you won't bring up more unrelated excuses to why I'm wrong, I'm not saying Hikifune is stronger then Yama-Jii, obviously Yama-Jii needs to be stronger then everyone in Soul Society to command them, but I would guess Hikifune were/is on about the same level as the current high tier captains (Unohana , Shunsui)"

The key word in all of that is guess. There's not a shred of canon example for any of that. I know she's not on par because it's, again, been explcitely stated that Ukitake and Shunsui are the strongest duo, and Unohana is their only senior. Whoever Hikifune was, she didn't outrank them. The King's realm is protected by a key that is nigh impossible to make unless someone with enough power in the Gotei 13 is willing to commit mass murder (Aizen). That's never happened, and it's also been stated that the king deigns not worry himself with whats going on. I hardly doubt that if he had someone stronger than Yama he wouldn't be crushing Aizen right now.

Have you noticed that Aizen doesn't seem too worried about facing either the Royal Guard or the King? They're not lead by some uber warrior who is the best in the universe who sits around and literally does nothing except guard a King who's never been touched. If anything I'd say they get pulled up for research or for having certain skills. They probably all do something, including the leader, but the rank of Commander General, head of the military force, indicates that he is their most powerful fighter. The strength of the guard might b in that it is composed entirely of captains, but I doubt any one of them is stronger than the top dogs who head up the combative arm of SS.

The really funny thing is we know absolutely nothing about the structure of the Royal Guard and yet you've conjectured yourself into a frenzy here. They might not even have a designated commander if they're all captains, except for the king himself. Maybe their strength lies in that they're all Captains, since this "tier" you mention hasn't even come up as an issue. The only people who rank captains in tiers are us, they don't do that because the captains all share mutual respect and power under the Commander General the only one to have any distinction as being more powerful than other captains in canon. The whole point is no one knows, and until you do, it's ridiculous to get yourself worked up with visions of some ultimate guard, leader of the Zero Squad who is the strongest dude "evar".

[Starzen]

could all of you take the tousen and royal guards stuff to their respective threads, where are the mods and what are they doing. back on topic : why is ulq trying to coach ichigo out of this fight surely he could have simply talked him to death.

[d3m1G0d]

^^
One thing I noticed no one address was the fact that Aizen may be aware of all those who were promoted to Zero Squad, he looked through the history records of soul society and also there may not be that many members of the Zero Squad. And who's to say that Aizen is going to that realm immediately? He may spend time to bolster up his forces.

[Pixie_]

Well it's fine that you disagree, though the neg rep was uncalled for. I don't think I'll continue this in here, as it's obvious that I'm arguing with people who say "You dumb person."

Rommel was right in the thick of the war, so what you said supports my point. The SS king is nothing like Hitler because he wants nothing to do with the war. But you're right, Rommel was heading up the war effort because he was the best, just like Yammoto is the strongest, and so commands the military dealing with the war. You put your best foot forward, as simple as that.

Lol,

"I'm saying the captain over the Zero Squad, the squad you get promoted to when you're stronger then necessary to stay at Soul Society, and so you won't bring up more unrelated excuses to why I'm wrong, I'm not saying Hikifune is stronger then Yama-Jii, obviously Yama-Jii needs to be stronger then everyone in Soul Society to command them, but I would guess Hikifune were/is on about the same level as the current high tier captains (Unohana , Shunsui)"

The key word in all of that is guess. There's not a shred of canon example for any of that. I know she's not on par because it's, again, been explcitely stated that Ukitake and Shunsui are the strongest duo, and Unohana is their only senior. Whoever Hikifune was, she didn't outrank them. The King's realm is protected by a key that is nigh impossible to make unless someone with enough power in the Gotei 13 is willing to commit mass murder (Aizen). That's never happened, and it's also been stated that the king deigns not worry himself with whats going on. I hardly doubt that if he had someone stronger than Yama he wouldn't be crushing Aizen right now.

Have you noticed that Aizen doesn't seem too worried about facing either the Royal Guard or the King? They're not lead by some uber warrior who is the best in the universe who sits around and literally does nothing except guard a King who's never been touched. If anything I'd say they get pulled up for research or for having certain skills. They probably all do something, including the leader, but the rank of Commander General, head of the military force, indicates that he is their most powerful fighter. The strength of the guard might b in that it is composed entirely of captains, but I doubt any one of them is stronger than the top dogs who head up the combative arm of SS.

The really funny thing is we know absolutely nothing about the structure of the Royal Guard and yet you've conjectured yourself into a frenzy here. They might not even have a designated commander if they're all captains, except for the king himself. Maybe their strength lies in that they're all Captains, since this "tier" you mention hasn't even come up as an issue. The only people who rank captains in tiers are us, they don't do that because the captains all share mutual respect and power under the Commander General the only one to have any distinction as being more powerful than other captains in canon. The whole point is no one knows, and until you do, it's ridiculous to get yourself worked up with visions of some ultimate guard, leader of the Zero Squad who is the strongest dude "evar".

Oh my god, thanks for proving my point. Does Aizen seem worried about facing Gotei 13 ? Nope, meaning he is probably relying on the Vasto Lorde's and Stark. As Aizen stated, when they've gathered the Vasto Lorde's none will be able to stand up to them, Aizen hasn't gathered all Vasto Lorde's (probably) but imagen Starks release form.

I would assume Stark is the reason Aizen doesn't fear the Gotei OR the Royal Guard, and on top of that, Aizen's Zanpankuto is powerful and very hard to counter, and his Zanpankuto practically removes the need of strength to overwhelm your opponents.

Also, it seems you disagree with me that the Zero Squad is made out of High Tier captains, please do explain why you think so.

[Stri]

Also, it seems you disagree with me that the Zero Squad is made out of High Tier captains, please do explain why you think so.

Probably due to the fact that the information suggesting that they consist of High-Tier's only has yet to be shown. Not saying it's not possible, but saying each and every one of them are at the level is an assumption and nothing more. At least at this point and time.

Which is why his reason for disagreeing with you is a very logical reason.

[Razvan_Asakura]

Oh my god, thanks for proving my point. Does Aizen seem worried about facing Gotei 13 ? Nope, meaning he is probably relying on the Vasto Lorde's and Stark. As Aizen stated, when they've gathered the Vasto Lorde's none will be able to stand up to them, Aizen hasn't gathered all Vasto Lorde's (probably) but imagen Starks release form.

I would assume Stark is the reason Aizen doesn't fear the Gotei OR the Royal Guard, and on top of that, Aizen's Zanpankuto is powerful and very hard to counter, and his Zanpankuto practically removes the need of strength to overwhelm your opponents.

Also, it seems you disagree with me that the Zero Squad is made out of High Tier captains, please do explain why you think so.

Shinji could see Aizen's illusions back when he was captain. Now, what's stopping someone like Urahara or Yamamoto to kill him? If they act quick, they could slice him before he even reaches to go bankai. Then again we all know K. Titty won't let that happen, since the fan-service will freak!

As for Ulqi wanting to lose or not. I say, his poker face says he doesn't care really. All he wants is to have little baby adjuchas with Orihime.

[Rinda Man]

Shinji could see Aizen's illusions back when he was captain. Now, what's stopping someone like Urahara or Yamamoto to kill him? If they act quick, they could slice him before he even reaches to go bankai. Then again we all know K. Titty won't let that happen, since the fan-service will freak!

As for Ulqi wanting to lose or not. I say, his poker face says he doesn't care really. All he wants is to have little baby adjuchas with Orihime.

He was fooled by the illusion. hence he couldn't notice that the guy following him around was a fake created by aizen's shikai as revealed near the end of the pendulum chapeters. if ur refering to the instance i think ur refering to it's most likely just a kidou/reiatsu concealment spell.

[smacharia8]

^ And Aizen specifically denoted that it worked so well because of Shinji's lack of interaction with his VC in particular. In a fight I don't expect such a thing to play a big role since everyone's going to be alert and more than likely not making rash decisions like Komamura at the execution hill.

[Lune]

@Those who are discussing Zero squad: Take it to the right thread. I know you know where it is because one of you posted the link to it! If I see a post regarding Zero squad after this post I will give you a stupidity infraction. -_-

@Starzen: We do have lives outside of BleachExile you know. As to where I was when you first mentioned this? Probably dealing with idiocy in the anime section. I cannot actually remmeber.

[fifenfk]

Wow really plausible theory but ichigo and ulquiorra have a score to settle since their 1st encounter and as for aizen and his plot to take over he's like kisuke they hide more than they show so its a anything goes kinda thing IMO but yes uliquorra is pushing him to the next level and ichigo just needs to go insane and find the shinigami robe he left his resolve in.