GN-0000 "00" Gundam (Trans-AM System disabled) VS ZGMF-X13A Providence Gundam

[lonelyfighterx]

Yeah, it's a match between 00 Gundam without Trans-AM, Setsuna F Seiei as the pilot and Providence Gundam, Rau Le Creuset as the pilot.

The battlefield will be at the asteroid belt, where we got lots of gigantic stone floating around the battlefield.

There is no support team for both Gundam, and there is no time limit for this battle.

So, who will win at the end of the battle?

[Yadomaru]

It's not "Trans-arm", it's "TRANS-AM", like the car.
That said, I'm running with the assumption that the Twin Drive is stable even if Trans-Am is disabled.

The way I see it, the 00 has a slight but definite mobility advantage over the much bulkier Providence, which serves it extremely well in the Asteroid Belt.
What's more, Setsuna's proven himself capable of dealing with remote weapons, though never as many as the Providence's 13 (The Throne Zwei had only 8, and Alvatore only 6). And in an environment like the Asteroid Belt, the effectiveness of the DRAGOON System would be reduced because there's so much cover.
At close range, the 00 has this, as it has two beam sabers plus the GN Sword IIs, whereas Providence is restricted to the single beam saber.

I'm gonna give it to Setsuna and the 00. Even without Trans-Am, the environment works out significantly in his favor, and the 00's overwhelming close-quarters advantage simply cinches it.

[Ajpinecrest2]

Alright, I honestly have no idea who this guy is, but from what I saw in the other thread, he doesn't have what it takes to go toe to toe with Kira, and you but him up against Rau?

You realize Rau is very easily the best mobile suit pilot in all of Seed?

Dude speedblitzes 00 Gundam, and cuts him in half.

[Meta]

If you watch 00 then you'll see that those gundams are at a speed lvl of their own,way above the previous series' gundams
Idk what this Providence is,since I've only seen Seed and not SD,but there's not a chance in hell for it to speedblitze 00

[Yadomaru]

Meta, the Providence is the big fat fatty of a Gundam Rau uses at the end of Gundam Seed that has a whole bunch of remote weapons on it:
http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/7962/msprovidencea6dh.gif

[Ajpinecrest2]

If you watch 00 then you'll see that those gundams are at a speed lvl of their own,way above the previous series' gundams
Idk what this Providence is,since I've only seen Seed and not SD,but there's not a chance in hell for it to speedblitze 00

It moves at Mach 8, what speedfeats does 00 Gundams have to support movement faster than that?

Also, what are the pilots level of superhuman reaction time?

Judging speed by looks alone is quite frankly stupid, as every Gundam series gives some hint as to what their top speed is or isn't.

[Yadomaru]

It moves at Mach 8, what speedfeats does 00 Gundams have to support movement faster than that?
I'm sorry, but I call BS.
To the best of my knowledge, nowhere, either in the series or in any of the supplemental material, is it EVER stated at what speed the Providence is moving, nor any other MS except the Stargazer. And certainly not that any of them were capable of moving supersonic at all, nevermind at weight times the speed of sound.

Now if you have proof to back up your claim, I'd like to see it.
Judging speed by looks alone is quite frankly stupid, as every Gundam series gives some hint as to what their top speed is or isn't.
I'm sorry, that's wrong. The OYW works give maximum ground running speeds for some of their MS.
All UC and most AUs give max accelerations, but not speed.
And CE gives us zilch. Ditto AD.

[Ajpinecrest2]

I'm sorry, but I call BS.
To the best of my knowledge, nowhere, either in the series or in any of the supplemental material, is it EVER stated at what speed the Providence is moving, nor any other MS except the Stargazer. And certainly not that any of them were capable of moving supersonic at all, nevermind at weight times the speed of sound.

Now if you have proof to back up your claim, I'd like to see it.

Enjoy.

Also, I can't believe you tried to claim that no MS can move past Mach 1, hell, even Skygraspers can move past Mach 1.

Basic Ginn in the CE universe can move at Mach 0.9, the Aile Strike gundam has enough thrust in it's boosters to support the Gundam's weight and manuver in the Earth's gravity, something the Ginn can not even do temporarily. From the weight difference of 7 metric tons, meaning that the Aile Strike can easily pull at least 90 metric tons, while the Ginn can not support 60.

This is at minimum at 1.5 strength difference in speed and thrust, putting the Aile Strike, to have a top speed, of at least Mach 1.6, then the Freedom Gundam is stated to have superior capablilities to all Strike Gundams, and dodges high velocity rail gun blasts from the Forbidden Gundam, which gives it quite easily a speed of 6,500 mph or Mach 8, this speed is again supported by the fact that the Freedom made it from Lagrange point 4 which is four times the distance between Earth and the moon, to Earth in less than 8 hours the Joshua base was sunlit the entire time, meaning that this is the maximum possible time difference since that is the length of an average Alaskan day.

I'm sorry, that's wrong. The OYW works give maximum ground running speeds for some of their MS.
All UC and most AUs give max accelerations, but not speed.
And CE gives us zilch. Ditto AD.

Now see, that's the thing, there is always something you can use to calculate speed, example, G Gundam has mobile suits that are capable of leaving the atmosphere under their own power, that's Mach 33 for escape velocity right there.

CE shows us that their mobile suits can not perform such a task without vast amounts of technological assistance (Lohingrins, Mass Drivers, etc...)

We've concluded that Gundam Seed Mobile Suits = Slower than G Gundam Mobile Suits.

Now, this speed was never given, but can be calculated due to real world aspects.

[lonelyfighterx]

Alright, I honestly have no idea who this guy is, but from what I saw in the other thread, he doesn't have what it takes to go toe to toe with Kira, and you but him up against Rau?

You realize Rau is very easily the best mobile suit pilot in all of Seed?

Dude speedblitzes 00 Gundam, and cuts him in half.

Ah, you forgot that this isn't battle in empty space, we're talking about battle in asteroid belt.

Enjoy.

Also, I can't believe you tried to claim that no MS can move past Mach 1, hell, even Skygraspers can move past Mach 1.





Now see, that's the thing, there is always something you can use to calculate speed, example, G Gundam has mobile suits that are capable of leaving the atmosphere under their own power, that's Mach 33 for escape velocity right there.

CE shows us that their mobile suits can not perform such a task without vast amounts of technological assistance (Lohingrins, Mass Drivers, etc...)

We've concluded that Gundam Seed Mobile Suits = Slower than G Gundam Mobile Suits.

Now, this speed was never given, but can be calculated due to real world aspects.

Where did you get all that stats anyway? How about the speed of 00?

Note: My source claim that special ability to be "Trans-arm" instead of "Trans-Am". I did some digging about this matter, and found the name is "Trans-AM" instead of 'Trans-arm'. :push: So, I'm really sorry about this silly mistake.:tongue:

[Ajpinecrest2]

Ah, you forgot that this isn't battle in empty space, we're talking about battle in asteroid belt.

This stops a beam saber slice how?

Where did you get all that stats anyway? How about the speed of 00?

Well, the Mach 33 is the speed required to leave the atmosphere if you still experience the effects of gravity, Mach 0.9 is stated as the Ginn's descent speed in the very first episode of Gundam Seed, and 6,500 mph is the top speed for modern day rail guns, however Forbidden's railguns are of a much higher caliber, meaning that the muzzle velocity and exit speed is definetly higher.

Anything else you need to know, I'm more than hapy to answer.

As for 00's speed, I can't answer as I haven't watched the series, and I don't exactly plan to start until the series is finished.

Note: My source claim that special ability to be "Trans-arm" instead of "Trans-Am". I did some digging about this matter, and found the name is "Trans-AM" instead of 'Trans-arm'. :push: So, I'm really sorry about this silly mistake.:tongue:

No problem, it doesn't really matter to any of us.

[lonelyfighterx]

This stops a beam saber slice how?

Well, we got asteroids that block the view. That's changes the battle indeed. Plus, we got asteroids with different size in asteroid belt. We got small asteroids, smaller than a cellphone, to the size bigger than the moon! (The earth's moon) I do think it is impossible for Providence to actually cut asteroids at the size of the moon into half.:huh:

We all know that without trans-AM, 00 Gundam has quite disadvantage in an empty space battle, this is due to most of the weapon for 00 Gundam is just for close-combat battle. This is the battle between strategies, the best strategy wins...:amused:

I purposely didn't use voting to determine the winner, because we got tons of 00 Gundam fan over here, and I don't think that's fair for Providence Gundam.

[Sander RX]

Ajpinecrest2 ,Im curious on how you got Providence being Mach 8 that when Providence has never flown in atmosphere?Mach cant be used to gauge anythings speed in space.Moreover,where does GINNs mach 0.9 come from when the thing clearly cant even fly?!
And honestly,in case you didnt know,fighters ARE faster than most mobile suits.MS have the aerodynamicks of a brick.It is the reason why Variable Fighters(Macross) smoke Mobile Suits in terms of speed.Its the attack helicopter vs fighter principle that allows them to keep winning.

[Ajpinecrest2]

Ajpinecrest2 ,Im curious on how you got Providence being Mach 8 that when Providence has never flown in atmosphere?

It kept up with Freedom, and avoided Freedom for most of the fight, Freedom Gundam can easily move at Mach 8, and I provided the calculation on post #7 or #8.

Mach cant be used to gauge anythings speed in space.

Because objects don't move in space?

Oh wait, they do.

It's easier to say Mach 8 than 6,500 mph, or eight times the speed of sound.

Moreover,where does GINNs mach 0.9 come from when the thing clearly cant even fly?!

It's stated in the first episode when the pack is dropped from space into the atmosphere.

And honestly,in case you didnt know, fighters ARE faster than most mobile suits.

Proof?

MS have the aerodynamicks of a brick.

They've also got the thrust of a rocket ship.

It is the reason why Variable Fighters(Macross) smoke Mobile Suits in terms of speed. Its the attack helicopter vs fighter principle that allows them to keep winning.

Bullshit.

[Sander RX]

Because objects don't move in space?

Oh wait, they do.

It's easier to say Mach 8 than 6,500 mph, or eight times the speed of sound.
Because there is no sound in space.There is no such thing as "top speed" in space either,objects can keep accelerating forever in space.Therefore to determine somethings combat speed,acceleration rate and estimated thrust powers are alot better gauges.

It's stated in the first episode when the pack is dropped from space into the atmosphere.
Didnt that refer to the HLV that was deccelerating to mach 0.9?How can something that CANT fly have speed 0.9 the speed of sound?

Proof?
Yeah,because a big bulky human-shaped object is due tohave avionics better than a streamlined fighter that is created for...flying.

Also,F-91 is one of the fastest suits...yet it can only pull off as much as 4,44gs:meanwhile modern F22 Raptor...
Maximum g-load: -3.0/+9.0 g[

They've also got the thrust of a rocket ship.
They sure dont look like it.Only such thrust freaks known to me are Ex-S and it derivatives.

Bullshit.
Which one?

VF>MS in speed?
Highest recorded acceleration rate in published MS stats is 20gs from V2 Gundam,meanwhile
VF-22 StUrmvogel II does 60gs.

Attack Helicopter vs Airplane?
Your impression is an accurate one (with regards to MS that rely mainly on vectored thrust for flight, anyways). There's actually real-life precedent to this. If we treat them as having performance & flight characteristics not unlike that of helicopters, then they are far from helpless.

As early as WWII, the Germans tested one of their helicopters (the Flettner Kolibri, iirc) against examples of the latest models of the Bf-109 & Fw 190. Both aircraft failed to capture it even once on their gun cameras.

Studies conducted by various countries during the late '70's/early '80's have shown that, when properly handled, a helicopter could actually achieve kill ratios of 6:1 or more in its favor against conventional fighter aircraft attacking it.

Among other things, a helicopter had the following advantages:
-- ability to operate comfortably at tree-top height.
-- incredibly tight turning radius; among other things, it will always be able to cut into a fixed-wing jet's turn radius and force the fighter pilot to take his chances on much more difficult deflection shots.
-- its slow, low-level flight meant that a conventional fighter's sensors, from the usual operational altitudes, had to contend with all sorts of ground clutter. One Israeli pilot, using a fancy radar lead-computing gunsight, kept missing a helicopter even after eight gun passes before switching to a fixed gunsight.
-- no stall speed.
-- Possibility of a flexible gun mounting (turrets, door gunners, an MS's handheld weapon) capable of firing at oddball angles to its flight path.

The recommended solution at the time was to engage the helicopter at long range before he even realizes there's a fighter jet gunning for him (harder to do if Minovsky jamming is taken into account). It was suggested that an entire pod's worth of unguided rockets fired in salvo would do the trick. Something with excellent performance at low speeds, like the A-10 or the OV-10D Bronco with its 20mm gun turret, would be a fine anti-heli platform, too (but they, in turn, would be prey for conventional fighter jets).

Or have another helicopter with the proper gear do the job! Or MS, in this case.
Add limbs,beamweapons,overall more arsenals,higher manueverability and versatility to helicopter and you get the idea.

[Gekigangar]

I would give the Providence the win for this 1.

Each of it's dragoons have at least 2 beam barrels for a grand total of 43.

1 of the more interesting ways of using it is to create a beam net which we have seen the Providence using it to stop missiles,block and to restrain opponents.

Since this is an asteroid field, this would give 00-Raizer less room to maneuver to dodge stuff which would make it easier to get trapped in the beam net.

Once the 00 Raizer is trapped, the Providence just needs to get a good lock and blow it to Kingdom come with it's veri powerful Judicium cannon.

Or

If the 00-Raizer tries to use it's arguably superior speed to charge in head first, all the Providence needs to do is to throw the beam net right in front of it, which will slice and dice the 00-Raizer to bits as with that much acceleration and speed, the 00-raizer will find it difficult to stop.

[Sander RX]

00-Raiser has the GN Field against that.

[Gekigangar]

I suppose if 00-Raizer does activate the GN field, the Dragoons can just push their way into the field until their nozzles are inside than riddle it with holes.

[justin43]

00-Raizer is not slow enough for that. The pilot would have cut those dragoons to pieces with the GN sword IIs. Dragoons are not fangs. Even if they were fangs, they will still be cut to pieces before even one gets close. The wing cannons and the two GN swords IIs can also be used to shoot them down.

[Gekigangar]

Dragoons may not be fangs, but I'm sure they can be used as such.

The effectiveness of using them as suicide weapons is questionable however.

However the main point is that they are solid and can push their way into the GN field enough so they can fire their beams.

Providence has 11 Dragoons.

Reborn Gundam has 12 fangs. Just 1 less remote weapon

Did the 00-Raizer manage to destroy all of Reborn's Gundam fangs? Nope.
In fact, 2 of them managed to smash into 00-Raizer. (Last episode of 00 S2 before they went Trans-Am)

Number of remote weapons do count. If all of them rammed into the GN field at once from 11 different directions, there is no possible way to slash them all.

Unless Setsuna can pull off a God Slash Typhoon...

[justin43]

Providence's dragoons were never used as fangs, so I don't see them ramming into suits. The only fang-like dragoons used in Seed used beam sabers to pass through and that wasn't until destiny. If you didn't know, GN field blocks all beam sabers.

[Gekigangar]

Actually no. If you watched the battle between 00-Raizer and Masurao first encounter, Mr Bushido managed to push his beam sabers quite a good way into the GN field before Setsuna Trans-Amed away.

And like I said in my previous post, the main point is that the Dragoons are solid and can push their way into the GN field enough so they can fire their beams.

[justin43]

Notice in that episode that 00-Raizer was not in trans-am at the time and Masurao was. Masurao had more power due to being in trans-am so the beam saber should be powerful enough to outright go straight through it. However, the fact that it failed to do just that causes me to conclude that 00-Raiser's trans-am GN field would totally block the beam saber.

Back to dragoons, if you notice that the dragoons are usually twice as long as fangs, then you should realize that dragoons are easier to shoot down than the much smaller fangs.

[Gekigangar]

Since you yourself said that the Trans-Amed beam saber should be powerful enough to outright go straight through the GN field, it proves your point wrong when you said that the GN field blocks ALL beam sabers.

This proves that a sufficiently powerful beam saber can penetrate a GN field.

The thing is that although a beam saber can penetrate a GN field, it is not effective or fast in doing so. It was slowly inching in. Unlike when the Gundam Exia used it's GN blades to stab through the Alvaaron's GN field like it was not there.

From what I can see, Dragoons are only slightly larger than the Reborn Gundam's Fangs which are the largest fangs I have seen so far in the series.

Setsuna did shoot some of them down. But he did not manage to get them all. Seeing as to how they could smash into the 00-Raizer and the Arios.

My point is that since there are so many, and with ALL of them are being directed at him instead of being split to counter the Arios too, that Setsuna would be overwhelmed by them.

[justin43]

Since you yourself said that the Trans-Amed beam saber should be powerful enough to outright go straight through the GN field, it proves your point wrong when you said that the GN field blocks ALL beam sabers.


This proves that a sufficiently powerful beam saber can penetrate a GN field.

The thing is that although a beam saber can penetrate a GN field, it is not effective or fast in doing so. It was slowly inching in. Unlike when the Gundam Exia used it's GN blades to stab through the Alvaaron's GN field like it was not there.

From what I can see, Dragoons are only slightly larger than the Reborn Gundam's Fangs which are the largest fangs I have seen so far in the series.

Setsuna did shoot some of them down. But he did not manage to get them all. Seeing as to how they could smash into the 00-Raizer and the Arios.

My point is that since there are so many, and with ALL of them are being directed at him instead of being split to counter the Arios too, that Setsuna would be overwhelmed by them.


No, it proves that you have to have a suit with more power than the suit producing the GN field to pierce the field. Providence doesn't fall under that category and most of all Providence don't have those types of dragoons so that point about using the dragoons in that way is moot. Just like the episode with the empress when 00-Raiser used its Raiser sword on it. There was an obvious power gap.

You underestimated Setsuna. There is no evidence to suggest that the larger dragoons won't be cut up like 00-Raiser did to the Reagnant's fangs and that was with one sword. I said with two GN Sword IIs.

[Gekigangar]

The GN field is basically a field make up of particles. Particles can be displaced if you push something solid through it. Dragoon or Fangs are solid objects. Thus they can penetrate GN fields. The only thing is that the more power you use for the GN field, the thicker the field of particles will be and the longer it will take for the solid object to displace the particles. The Dragoons do not even have to penetrate the field fully, just enough for their barrels to be inside.

So the power of suits does not have anything to do with piecing a GN field with solid objects.

I did not say that the Dragoons would not be blown or cut up. I'm saying that Setsuna would not be able to get them all. If he could, he would have done it when he was dueling the Reborn Gundam.

[Sander RX]

The GN field is basically a field make up of particles. Particles can be displaced if you push something solid through it. Dragoon or Fangs are solid objects. Thus they can penetrate GN fields.
NO.

GN Field gets penetrated by solid object that are infused with GN particles themselves.

[Gekigangar]

YES.

Take a look at the Grappler Arms of the Empruss. The things that discharges electricity. No GN Particles there. And look! It penetrated the GN field of the Seravee.

That was the point the Original Lockon Stratos was trying to make. Why the hell would the Exia have an oversized physical blade when beam sabers are more powerful? It's because it's a solid which can displace GN particles and piece through GN fields.

[justin43]

Sorry, it took me so long to respond

Here is a video of Providence using its dragoons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc6CXxU0tA4

You notice how the dragoons move only side to side or up and down. You also notice that the dragoons don't have pointed edge for piercing. You will also notice that the dragoons can't be used for melee since it was never shown too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh-fU7o3FFc

Notice in this video how Reborn Gundam's fang move in far more complex movements than the dragoons and are arguably faster.

In conclusion, number of dragoons mean crap since they are technologically inferior to fangs in both movement, speed and ability. My point stands all dragoons get shot down by 00-Raiser.

P.S. These were the shortest videos I can find.

[Gekigangar]

You notice how the dragoons move only side to side or up and down. You also notice that the dragoons don't have pointed edge for piercing. You will also notice that the dragoons can be used for melee since it was never shown too.


The Dragoons of the Providence are not suicide weapons. They probably would not survive ramming into 00-Raizer. However, they should be able to physically piece GN fields. This is the argument I am making.

My point being that if Setsuna decides to chicken out and hide in his protective GN field bubble from the rain of Dragoon beam fire, the Dragoons are able to physically move into the GN field and shoot it. An object does not have to be pointed to piece a GN field. It just has to be solid and have a continuous amount of force behind it.


Notice in this video how Reborn Gundam's fang move in far more complex movements than the dragoons and are arguably faster.


From the videos, you will notice that the Dragoons are able to side to side and up and down. This gives the Dragoons more maneuverability compared to fangs.

Fangs on the other hand, are designed to be suicide weapons. Meaning their foward speed is much greater than compared to Dragoons. Also, if you notice, the only way they can change direction is by physically turning sharply.

An analogy of their movement would be Helicopters[Dragoons] vs Planes[Fangs].

Both of them can avoid being hit by beams most of the time. The only difference is how they do so. Dragoons by moving out of the way by sliding, Fangs by turning sharply and speeding away.

So to summarize their plus points:

Dragoons
+More Maneuverable(able to slide in any direction it wants)
+Faster rate of fire
+More barrel ports(at least 2 to a dragoon)

Fangs
+Arguably faster(Foward thrust top speed wise)
+Can be used efficiently as a suicide ramming weapon
+Can work in the atmosphere


In conclusion, number of dragoons mean crap since they are technologically inferior to fangs in both movement, speed and ability. My point stands all dragoons get shot down by 00-Raiser.

I disagree on the point that Dragoons mean crap. Both Fangs and Dragoons have their good points. Dragoons can do things Fangs can't. Fangs can do things Dragoons can't.

Dragoons are designed to inflict a rain of beam fire from afar in all directions. I doubt the 00-Raizer is able to dodge all of the beams.

Reborn Gundam's Fangs at most can shoot 12 beams at once. Providence Dragoons can shoot 43 beams at once. Quite a difference I would say.

Which brings us the argument that the 00-Raizer will be safe and invulnerable in it's GN field. Thus my point that if it comes to that, the Dragoons are able to physically pierce the GN field in 13 directions and lay waste to it.

00-Raizer is simply outgunned in this battle without Trans-Am. With Trans-Am and all the X-tra abilities it would give it, it would be a different story.

[justin43]

That's the problem. The dragoons were never shown to do melee attacks and with their limited side to side motion. They would get shot down if use in such a manner. Dragoons may have beam power, but that is what the GN field is for. In addition, the fact that it don't have piercing parts make it much less likely to even penetrate the E-carbon armor of 00-Raiser. Remember 00 gundams were able to withstand quite a bit of concussive force from being bombed for hours. 00-Raiser even survived a Gaga unit trying to running into after the Reagant grabbed it. To say that a bunch of non-sharp weapons just destroying 00-Raiser through ramming into it is a gross underestimation of its armor strength. The dragoons would have to act as fangs to do what you suggest, which is impossible since it has less forward motion speed than fangs.

Don't get me wrong. Dragoons have great side to side and up and down movements, but their forward speed in general is lacking for them not to get shot down.

[Gekigangar]

You do not seem to be reading my posts fully.

I am not stating that the Dragoons are going to pierce the GN field to RAM into the 00-Raizer. Dragoons are not suicide weapons.

I am stating that the Dragoons are able to piece the GN field partially to be able to fire their beam cannons inside the GN field so that the beams would not be blocked by the GN field.

See the difference?

[justin43]

Still doesn't change the fact that the dragoons are slow in their forward motion in comparision to fangs. Great side to side motion, but their forward motion as in going towards the target is slow. The dragoons will have to still close in. If the dragoons do get close, that is what 00-Raiser's GN sword II's are for. I will guarantee that 3/4 of those dragoons will not even get close and the rest will be taken care of by the GN sword IIs. You give the dragoons too much credit as a weapon or 00-Raiser too little credit. They are terrible at close range especially in this battle where a suit has a gun that doubles as a sword. Dragoons are best used at the mid range unlike fangs.

You assume that all the dragoons will hit 00-Raiser at once like the pilot can't shot some of them down before they get close. The ones that do get close gets cut up by the GN sword. That is the beauty of having two gunblades.

[Yadomaru]

Setsuna proved himself capable of dispatching Fangs with relative ease as the pilot of Exia.
S2-Setsuna is a much better shot, a more experienced fighter, and 00 has two GN Sword IIs to Exia's one - and that's without counting the GN Sword III.
The DRAGOON System of the Providence has 11 remotes to the Throne/Arche's 8, and each has more guns - this is true. However, The DRAGOONs of the Providence are inferior in speed to the Fangs, and lack the Fangs' close-combat capability.

[Gekigangar]

Ok, I shall try my best to address your reasoning.

For the 00-Raizer to attack, it's GN Field must go down with 1 exception. We all agree on this?

When the GN Field is down, the 00-Raizer is vulnerable to the rain of beam fire the Dragoons can leash out.

So this is Scenario 1.

The 00-Raizer attempts to take on the Dragoons w/o the GN field. No matter how good your dodging is, there is no point when the Dragoons can throw beams surrounding you blocking all paths you can move to.

Assuming that the 00 Raizer uses all the long range beam weaponry at it's disposal, that would be the 2 GN Swords in Gun mode, the GN beams from the 0 Raizer, and let say they all hit a Dragoon(Unlikely as they can slide out of the way). There still would be 9 Dragoons still standing to shoot back. Not to mention the Providence taking potshots.

So Scenario 1, as you can see, the 00-Raizer gets pwnzed thoroughly.

================================================== ====

Now let's move on the Scenario 2.

Setsuna pulls back into his Almighty GN Field. The 00-Raizer is almost untouchable in this mode. None of the Providence's weapons can touch him.

This is the one where you assume that once the Dragoons get close, Setsuna will perform a God Slash Typhoon and slash all 13 Dragoons at once to bits and pieces.

Remember when I said that the 00-Raizer has to drop it's GN Field in order to attack except for 1 weapon? That is the GN Blades/Swords. It can pierce through it's own GN Field to poke stuff.

However, remember. The stronger the GN Field the 00-Raizer makes, the more difficult it will be for the GN Blades/Swords to move through it. Which is why you never see Setsuna doing something like fighting with the GN Field activated all the time.

From my previous posts, the Dragoons will pierce the GN Fields from 13 directions.

Now, Setsuna has 2 options.

1)Drop the GN Field and begin slashing, shooting, whatever. Once the GN Field goes down, we are back to Scenario 1. Where we have 13 Dragoons shooting 43 beams at point blank range.

2)Keep the GN Field up and start poking using his 2 GN Swords the Dragoons which are invading the GN Field. Good choice.

However, as a Gundam is a humanoid shape, there are blind spots which the GN Swords are not able to poke due to angles of attack and movement. In the end, the majority of the Dragoons will still break through the GN Field and fill the 00-Raizer with holes.

================================================== =

In any case, the 00-Raizer will get owned.

Now, let's talk on how the 00-Raizer will win. The only way it can win without Trans-Am is if it had some prep time. Fill the arena with an anti-beam dust field which will cut down the power of the Providence attacks to like...20%. Then and only then will it own the Providence with it's melee attacks.

[justin43]

Your scernarios are terrible. You only think that 00-Raiser will get only 4 before the dragoons get there.:wacko: If Freedom can dodge and spam with its one beam rifle and take out each dragoon, what makes you think that 00-Raiser is not at least capable of this. Yes, Kira used one beam rifle and not his other weapons.

00-Raiser (not in trans-am) is at least as fast and manuverable as Freedom. Don't tell me that Providence can trap 00-Raiser with its dragoons.

[Gekigangar]

Yep. I assume the Dragoon's beams will hit the 00-Raizer the same time the 00-Raizer's beams hit the Dragoons.

Unless you are telling me that somehow, the 00-Raizer beams are traveling faster?
If so, I would like to see your reasoning for that.

If you watch the last episode of SEED, you will see that Freedom + Meteor was slowly getting cornered by the Providence. With the amount of Beams surrounding him, there was nothing Kira could do about it.

Not bad for Rau who is using the machine for the first time who was busy fine tuning the controls.

Only after the Dragoons were low on energy that did you see Kira managing to shoot them down 1 by 1.

You can see this by watching the Dragoons attack the Freedom individually. Not much group attacks.

00-Raizer would not last that long for the Dragoons to be low on energy.

It would be a quick decisive battle. Like what the Dragoons did to Mwu's Strike. Entrap it and blast it to pieces.

[justin43]

Freedom plus Meteor is slower than 00-Raiser. I don't need to mention the fact that wearing the meteor makes it harder for freedom to dodge. You notice in Destiny that Kira learned his lesson and disconnected the meteor before going into battle with legend.

Now, you need to explain to me what keeps 00-Raiser from dodging and then shooting the slower, easier to predict dragoons. Freedom was trapped due to the fact that Kira didn't disconnect the meteor before battling Providence. That was his first mistake.

From your post, I think you severely underestimating the GN sword IIs firing rate. Go back and watch 00 and bring up some youtube videos showing me why Freedom in meteor equals 00-Raiser in speed and mobility.

Right now, nothing in your post proves the dragoons can trap 00-Raiser and that Setsuna can only get one shot off of each of his guns:suspicious:, but as a concession, you prove that it can trap Exia with GN arms.:tongue:

[Gekigangar]

Now, you need to explain to me what keeps 00-Raiser from dodging and then shooting the slower, easier to predict dragoons. Freedom was trapped due to the fact that Kira didn't disconnect the meteor before battling Providence. That was his first mistake.

The amount of beam firing raining down on him is what would keep the 00-Raizer dodging. Mwu with the Strike used minute movement of the Strike Limbs to try to dodge the beams. Still got totaled cuz no way can you dodge that many beams. Even Kira had to use his beam sabers to deflect some of the beams heading his way. (Later he used beam shields in the Strike Freedom)

It's 1 thing dodging 1 beam shot. Quite another trying to dodge 43 beams from several different directions heading your way.

Freedom could only destroy the Dragoons once they were attacking individually. No more rain of beam fire.

At that point, you only had to concentrate on 1 Remote weapon at a time.


From your post, I think you severely underestimating the GN sword IIs firing rate.

Firing rate is 1 thing. The speed of the beams is another.

My point is the moment the 00-Raizer's beams hit the Dragoons, the Dragoons's beams will hit the 00-Raizer. The Providence can afford to lose 4 Dragoons. 00-Raizer can't really afford to get hit.

Unless you are telling me that the 00-Raizer can let loose 13 shots in 13 different directions in the amount of time the Dragoons can fire off a shot....



Go back and watch 00 and bring up some youtube videos showing me why Freedom in meteor equals 00-Raiser in speed and mobility.

That is pretty hard to do. Since we do not really have a baseline to compare against.


Right now, nothing in your post proves the dragoons can trap 00-Raiser and that Setsuna can only get one shot off of each of his guns:suspicious:, but as a concession, you prove that it can trap Exia with GN arms.:tongue:

From your posts, you seem to assume that 00-Raizer is able to dodge 43 beams by simply stating "00-Raizer is so fast, it can dodge beams".

To dodge beams, you will need a place to move to. The virtue of the Dragoons beam net is to limit the amount of directions you can move to.

Thus my question : How can you dodge, if you have no where to move to?

Trans-Am quantization solves this problem by teleporting. But too bad it's disabled for this match.

[Icehaku]

You assume that Setsuna will simply dodge the dragoons while hiding in his GN field. Why? He can just chase after Providence while in his GN Field and ram into it. 00 is faster than providence because we established that 00 is at least equal to Freedom or Strike Freedom in speed and they were able to dodge the Providence and its Dragoons (or Legend). In close combat, the Dragoons would not be able to function because there is the risk of hitting Providence with their beams. Using the Dragoons would also detract from the pilot's ability to function since dragoons are controlled by quantum computers with some of the pilot's cooperation. Don't tell me that Rau (or whoever the pilot is) can operate Dragoons and dodge Setsuna in close combat. Using the GN field, 00 can just ram into Providence until it smashes against an asteroid or disable its GN field just long enough to cut providence into pieces. The Dragoons would be unable to fire beacuse the pilot cannot control them and engage in melee at the same time. 00 is superior in melee. Providence loses

[Gekigangar]

You assume that Setsuna will simply dodge the dragoons while hiding in his GN field. Why? He can just chase after Providence while in his GN Field and ram into it.

And what good would ramming into Providence do? Phase Shift Armor will take any damage ramming attacks will do. Additionally, if you noticed, apparently beams have mass enough to knock objects off course.

Eg, Gadessa knocking Ptolemaios 2 off course, Legend knocking away Strike Freedom when SF blocked Legend's beams with it's beam shield.

So if 00-Raizer tries to approach under the hail of Beam fire in it's GN Field, it will be knocked around like the ball in a pinball machine.


00 is faster than providence because we established that 00 is at least equal to Freedom or Strike Freedom in speed and they were able to dodge the Providence and its Dragoons (or Legend).

As I recall, Freedom ate a few beams from the Dragoons. Not really I would call complete flawless dodging. But nevertheless noted, 00-Raizer speed is comparable to Providence.


In close combat, the Dragoons would not be able to function because there is the risk of hitting Providence with their beams.

What risk? The 00-Raizer will be the meat shield for all the Dragoon beams fired from the back, and beams fired from above, left, right, down have no obstacles.

So pretty safe.


Using the Dragoons would also detract from the pilot's ability to function since dragoons are controlled by quantum computers with some of the pilot's cooperation. Don't tell me that Rau (or whoever the pilot is) can operate Dragoons and dodge Setsuna in close combat.

We are talking Providence Gundam here. He did not need no Quantum computers to use his Dragoons. Quantum Computer aided Dragoons was developed much later to aid people with no spatial awareness eg: Kira to be able to use them.

Rau seemed able to enough to use both the Providence to launch beam saber attacks and Dragoons attacks against the Freedom with no problems.


Using the GN field, 00 can just ram into Providence until it smashes against an asteroid or disable its GN field just long enough to cut providence into pieces. The Dragoons would be unable to fire beacuse the pilot cannot control them and engage in melee at the same time. 00 is superior in melee. Providence loses

I have no idea where you got that using the Dragoons system will make Rau into a vegetable. The moment 00-Raizer drops it's GN field into close combat, the Dragoon's beams will fill it with holes. Dragoon system is designed to rain down fire constantly for a while before needing to return to recharge.

So in summary, 00-Raizer will have problems approaching the Providence with the rain of beam fire. Assuming it does, ramming will have no effect. Dropping the GN Field will mean instant death.

So in the end, Providence will remain the victor.

[Icehaku]

And what good would ramming into Providence do? Phase Shift Armor will take any damage ramming attacks will do. Additionally, if you noticed, apparently beams have mass enough to knock objects off course.

Eg, Gadessa knocking Ptolemaios 2 off course, Legend knocking away Strike Freedom when SF blocked Legend's beams with it's beam shield.

So if 00-Raizer tries to approach under the hail of Beam fire in it's GN Field, it will be knocked around like the ball in a pinball machine.


As I recall, Freedom ate a few beams from the Dragoons. Not really I would call complete flawless dodging. But nevertheless noted, 00-Raizer speed is comparable to Providence.



What risk? The 00-Raizer will be the meat shield for all the Dragoon beams fired from the back, and beams fired from above, left, right, down have no obstacles.

So pretty safe.

We are talking Providence Gundam here. He did not need no Quantum computers to use his Dragoons. Quantum Computer aided Dragoons was developed much later to aid people with no spatial awareness eg: Kira to be able to use them.

Rau seemed able to enough to use both the Providence to launch beam saber attacks and Dragoons attacks against the Freedom with no problems.


I have no idea where you got that using the Dragoons system will make Rau into a vegetable. The moment 00-Raizer drops it's GN field into close combat, the Dragoon's beams will fill it with holes. Dragoon system is designed to rain down fire constantly for a while before needing to return to recharge.

So in summary, 00-Raizer will have problems approaching the Providence with the rain of beam fire. Assuming it does, ramming will have no effect. Dropping the GN Field will mean instant death.

So in the end, Providence will remain the victor.

So you're saing that the dragooons smaller beams have enough mass to alter the course of 00 gundam who is powered by 2 solar furnaces? Hmmmmmmmm....I don't think so


If the 00 dodges a beam from the back just once, then it will hit the providence unless it dodges. And I don't think setsuna is stupid enough to just blindly charge at the providence. Also, the GN field is only penetrable by mobile armors crashing into it, beam weaponry, or close combat (heavy fire or GN charged blades) Thus, CE's beams would not even affect the GN field. Dragoons are not entire mobile armors so they cannot pierce it either. Rau will not be able to create a beam net if he must constantly dodge his own dragoon shots. The Dragoons may have 43 guns in total, but that does not mean that they all point in the same direction. They can create a beam net, but not a rain of fire. it would be 11 beams fired in one direction and 32 beams fired in another direction. A beam net requires coverage of the area around the target with beams. However, he will not be able to focus as much fire from behind the 00 because of the risk of hitting him. In close combat, the Providence would be further hindered by the fact that the dragoons's beams do not all point in the same direction so he'd have to constantly dodge his own shots from the rest of the dragoons too.

Oh, you mean when they blade locked or passed by each other in dashes with beam sabers. Uh huh. In real close combat, you don't have time to react to every movement the opponent makes and control the dragoons. That's why fin funnels always beat dragoons beacuse they are controlled by the mind. To physically multitask like that is impossible. What, one hand controlling the dragoons and one hand for the beam saber? Besides, it only has one beam saber on its shield which cannot compete against a melee suit like 00.

The GN field prevents any beams from doing damage, the 00's thrust power overcomes any mass that the small dragoon beams may have, and thus, 00 has an impenetrable defense. When the dragoons do need to recharge, that is when providence is dead. The GN field only needs to be dropped for a split second so that the 00 can swing its sword. Rau will not be able to use his dragoons during that time, even if they are out in the field and not recharging. He has to dodge 00's attack. So you're talling me that in that second, he will dodge the 00's attack, and bring the Dragoons to blast at the 00? I don't think so. Besides, 00 also blocks beams with its shields (in 00 raiser) or its swords so it could block any beams fast enough to fire at an exposed 00 and then brings its field back up. without the dragoons, the providence is no better than a bulky suit with extra weight, a gun, and a short ranged sabre. 00 would rape it

[Gekigangar]

So you're saing that the dragooons smaller beams have enough mass to alter the course of 00 gundam who is powered by 2 solar furnaces? Hmmmmmmmm....I don't think so

Yes. I am saying exactly that will happen when multiple beams impact the 00-Raizer. The 00-Raizer is not some immovable object in space. A few minor nudges here and there will throw the 00-Raizer off course.


If the 00 dodges a beam from the back just once, then it will hit the providence unless it dodges. And I don't think setsuna is stupid enough to just blindly charge at the providence.

Dodges the beam with what? Quantization? No Trans-Am here. And yes, Setsuna main tactic is to charge in head first. Seen the battles with Mr.Bushido? Mindless charging in clashing again and again and again.


Also, the GN field is only penetrable by mobile armors crashing into it, beam weaponry, or close combat (heavy fire or GN charged blades) Thus, CE's beams would not even affect the GN field.

Precisely why the Dragoons have to physically enter the GN Field enough so that it's barrels can fire un-impended by the Field.


Dragoons are not entire mobile armors so they cannot pierce it either.

It does not need to be a mobile armor to penetrate the GN Field. It just has to be a solid with continuous thrust behind it. Remember the electric dischargers? Those pieced through the GN fields with no problems. Why? Cuz they are solid and have rocket thrust to push it into the field.



Rau will not be able to create a beam net if he must constantly dodge his own dragoon shots. The Dragoons may have 43 guns in total, but that does not mean that they all point in the same direction. They can create a beam net, but not a rain of fire. it would be 11 beams fired in one direction and 32 beams fired in another direction. A beam net requires coverage of the area around the target with beams. However, he will not be able to focus as much fire from behind the 00 because of the risk of hitting him. In close combat, the Providence would be further hindered by the fact that the dragoons's beams do not all point in the same direction so he'd have to constantly dodge his own shots from the rest of the dragoons too.

Dodge his own Dragoon shots? When did you ever see the Providence needing to dodge it's own Dragoon shots? Please point out the scene.

So far I have never seen any Suit with remote weapons in CE needing to dodge its own shots.



Oh, you mean when they blade locked or passed by each other in dashes with beam sabers. Uh huh. In real close combat, you don't have time to react to every movement the opponent makes and control the dragoons. That's why fin funnels always beat dragoons beacuse they are controlled by the mind. To physically multitask like that is impossible. What, one hand controlling the dragoons and one hand for the beam saber? Besides, it only has one beam saber on its shield which cannot compete against a melee suit like 00.

Problem is we do not know how the Dragoons are controlled by the pilot in the Providence. Other than needing spatial awareness. And later Quantum Computers to aid people who do not have spatial awareness. Current info we have just states that by Quantum communication is how the data is sent from the Providence to the Dragoons.

To infer that is requires manual or mental commands is pretty much a moot point cuz we do not have the info.

All we do know that it does not make Rau a vegetable when he managed to do both when fighting against Freedom.


The GN field prevents any beams from doing damage, the 00's thrust power overcomes any mass that the small dragoon beams may have, and thus, 00 has an impenetrable defense. When the dragoons do need to recharge, that is when providence is dead. The GN field only needs to be dropped for a split second so that the 00 can swing its sword. Rau will not be able to use his dragoons during that time, even if they are out in the field and not recharging. He has to dodge 00's attack. So you're talling me that in that second, he will dodge the 00's attack, and bring the Dragoons to blast at the 00? I don't think so. Besides, 00 also blocks beams with its shields (in 00 raiser) or its swords so it could block any beams fast enough to fire at an exposed 00 and then brings its field back up. without the dragoons, the providence is no better than a bulky suit with extra weight, a gun, and a short ranged sabre. 00 would rape it

True, the GN Field will prevent damage from beams. Thus that is why the Dragoons have to physically enter the field.

Read my other posts again. Before it gets to the point the Dragoons need to recharge, 00-Raizer would be destroyed.

You assume that the 00-Raizer just needs to wait for the Dragoons to run out of energy before going for the killing blow yes? By hiding in the GN Field? Like I said before, the Dragoons are able to piece the GN Field. So waitting for them to run out of energy is no option for 00-Raizer.

As for the knocking the 00-Raizer of course, picture yourself running. You may have great speed, but if I hurl a an object, say a book at you, it will be enough to knock you off course by a slight margin. Your great speed will take care of the rest to make the margin wider. Now picture that 13 people are tossing books at you. I would like to see if you can still maintain your original course.

True, 00-Raizer is an impressive close combat suit. But the Providence is one of the King of Ranged attacks. It would have to get into range first. Which is no easy feat. Did you see how much difficulty Freedom had to go through to get into range of the Providence?

[Icehaku]

A GN field can only be penetrated by large physical objects or objects with enough GN particles running through it. The electric dischargers were powered by a machine with GN particles running it so it was able to penetrate. Without a GN drive, even if its fake, Louise's electric stuff would not have been able to pierce the barrier.

Thrust power is different from speed. For example, a jet plane is much faster than a battleship. However, the jet plane's engine cannot move the battleship simply because it lacks thrust power. The battleship's engine could probably propel the plane even faster if the plane could accomodate the huge thing in its frame.
You would not be throwing a book at a runner. You would be throwing a book at a racecar somehow surrounded by a force field. Your book would do nothing. Suppose you had many books, still the force field would block all the books thrown because it is NOT a part of the machine. The force field might move, but the machine would stay its course. And now suppose the car could dodge your books, too, using its speed. Even if you threw your books at a similar speed to the car, some would miss, especially since you're not throwing your books all in one direction. But while you're doing this, you're also in car and driving away from the racecar so it doesn't crash into you. Soon, you'd run out of books and the car would catch up to you since its a racecar.

Freedom is more agile than Providence because Providence must carry the Dragoons. 00 is at least equal to Freedom. Providence w/ Dragoons=Slower than 00. 00 wins.

[Gekigangar]

A GN field can only be penetrated by large physical objects or objects with enough GN particles running through it. The electric dischargers were powered by a machine with GN particles running it so it was able to penetrate. Without a GN drive, even if its fake, Louise's electric stuff would not have been able to pierce the barrier.

Where the hell did you see GN particles running through the electric dischargers?
See the thrust of the Electric Dischargers? That is rocket power. No particles anywhere. If GN Particles were running through it, you would have seen it scattering particles around instead of rocket thrust. GN drives just provides power and movement. It does not give any other special abilities.

It's like saying that Freedom Gundam's weapons and armor are radioactive because it is powered by a Nuke.


Thrust power is different from speed. For example, a jet plane is much faster than a battleship. However, the jet plane's engine cannot move the battleship simply because it lacks thrust power. The battleship's engine could probably propel the plane even faster if the plane could accomodate the huge thing in its frame.

Your point is?


You would not be throwing a book at a runner. You would be throwing a book at a racecar somehow surrounded by a force field. Your book would do nothing. Suppose you had many books, still the force field would block all the books thrown because it is NOT a part of the machine. The force field might move, but the machine would stay its course. And now suppose the car could dodge your books, too, using its speed. Even if you threw your books at a similar speed to the car, some would miss, especially since you're not throwing your books all in one direction. But while you're doing this, you're also in car and driving away from the racecar so it doesn't crash into you. Soon, you'd run out of books and the car would catch up to you since its a racecar.

Notice how the Seravee/Virtue moves with the GN Field when it gets knocked around?
The MS moves with the field. And since the MS moves with the field, it will be knocked around with the field.

Since you are using a race car analogy, it would be a race car surrounded by a solid bubble. The bubble will prevent damage to the race car yes, but it will not absorb the force of whatever is hitting the bubble. The faster the race car is traveling, the easier it will be to knock it off course. Ever seen how a slight nudge causes race cars traveling at high speed to crash? That is what would happen.

So assuming the 00-Raizer Race Car is chasing after the Providence Race car, the Providence Race car will just be taking pot shots, slowing down the 00-Raizer. Than the Dragoons who will be like Mini Race cars following from the back, the side, the top and the bottom will just fire at where the 00-Raizer will be a few seconds later to knock it around some more. All the while getting close enough to piece the GN Field and blast it to pieces.


Freedom is more agile than Providence because Providence must carry the Dragoons. 00 is at least equal to Freedom. Providence w/ Dragoons=Slower than 00. 00 wins.

Seeing that Providence managed to keep up with Freedom's speed in space, Providence is no slouch in the speed department. It's like saying Freedom is faster than 00-Raizer because 00-Raizer carries the 0-Raizer. A giant GN Drive regulator backpack. At least the Providence backpack has some massive thrusters on it to give it some speed.

And I do not see why just because if Providence w/ Dragoons=Slower than 00. 00 wins.

It does not matter if 00-Raizer is faster than Providence. Speed itself is useless if you cannot use it. And being knocked around like a pinball , 00-Raizer will have trouble flying in a straight line, much less use it's speed to charge in.

[Icehaku]

my point is that thrust power is different from speed. It would take a lot more to move a battleship off course than a fighter plane. The thrust power can overcome obstacles that could deter it from its course.

Besides, I just watched Providence battle Freedom. If 00 and Freedom have equal speed as we've established, Setsuna should be able to dodge the Dragoons. I mean, Kira even did it with a METEOR attached. Although it got destroyed, the fact that he was able to dodge while in the METEOR says a lot about the speed of the Gundam and therefore Setsuna can do the same. You may say that Setsuna does not have the same piloting skill as Kira, but he is an Innovator now. Innovators are shown to be better pilots than humans just like coordinators even without the psychich communication through Trans-am. Therefore, he can dodge as much as Kira. And what's not to say that Setsuna can destroy Dragoons? He kills Fangs which are much smaller than Dragoons, and more manueverable. And don't bring Reborn Gundam up again because in that case, Kira also got hit by the Dragoons, yet he still won. Guy lost half his Gundam and still killed Rau. Kira also did it in MELEE, using a beam saber to CATCH UP to Providence which shows that Freedom is faster than Providence. 00=Freedom's speed, therefore 00 will also catch up.

In the end, Freedom beat Providence. 00=Freedom. 00 can also beat Providence. Freedom might be said to be superior in ranged combat which allowed it to kill the Dragoons and beat Providence, but actually, Freedom used the railguns and his one beam rifle only. Railguns point in a fixed direction so they're not even a good weapon, too. 00 has two spam-blast guns that fire much more rapidly than Freedom's beam rifle. So actually, since Freedom did not use its plasma guns on its back, 00 is superior in ranged and melee than Freedom against Providence. You can't ignore the fact that Freedom beat Providence and since 00 is at least equal to Freedom, 00 will win

[Meta]

I just watched the eps with the Providence action and it was really impressive
Does 00 have the 0-Raiser as well,coz it makes a very great difference in my eyes

[Gekigangar]

my point is that thrust power is different from speed. It would take a lot more to move a battleship off course than a fighter plane. The thrust power can overcome obstacles that could deter it from its course.


Thrust power moves things in 1 direction. Of course it would take a lot more power to move a battleship. Considering it's weight and mass. However, if i had a tugboat pushing the battleship from the side while the battleship is moving foward, I can influence the battleship to move diagonally. Thrust power can only overcome obstacles pushing directly against it. Not to the sides.

So while 00-Raizer may be able to push through if all the beams fired directly in front of it to push it back, it will still get knocked off course if the beams were fired from other directions.


Besides, I just watched Providence battle Freedom. If 00 and Freedom have equal speed as we've established, Setsuna should be able to dodge the Dragoons. I mean, Kira even did it with a METEOR attached. Although it got destroyed, the fact that he was able to dodge while in the METEOR says a lot about the speed of the Gundam and therefore Setsuna can do the same. You may say that Setsuna does not have the same piloting skill as Kira, but he is an Innovator now. Innovators are shown to be better pilots than humans just like coordinators even without the psychich communication through Trans-am. Therefore, he can dodge as much as Kira.

Do note that Kira had to use his beam sabers to deflect some of the Dragoon's beams. This shows that even he is not able to dodge ALL of the Dragoon's beams.


And what's not to say that Setsuna can destroy Dragoons? He kills Fangs which are much smaller than Dragoons, and more manueverable.

Dragoons are more maneuverable. They can slide in any direction they choose to. Fangs cannot.


And don't bring Reborn Gundam up again because in that case, Kira also got hit by the Dragoons, yet he still won. Guy lost half his Gundam and still killed Rau. Kira also did it in MELEE, using a beam saber to CATCH UP to Providence which shows that Freedom is faster than Providence. 00=Freedom's speed, therefore 00 will also catch up.


So you do admit that even Kira is not able to dodge all the Dragoons? And that dodging all of Rau's Dragoons is an impossible feat? Good.

Being able to catch up is 1 thing. To do so is another. Like I said, if 00-Raizer uses the charging tactic, the Dragoons will knock it around like a pinball.


In the end, Freedom beat Providence. 00=Freedom. 00 can also beat Providence. Freedom might be said to be superior in ranged combat which allowed it to kill the Dragoons and beat Providence, but actually, Freedom used the railguns and his one beam rifle only. Railguns point in a fixed direction so they're not even a good weapon, too. 00 has two spam-blast guns that fire much more rapidly than Freedom's beam rifle. So actually, since Freedom did not use its plasma guns on its back, 00 is superior in ranged and melee than Freedom against Providence. You can't ignore the fact that Freedom beat Providence and since 00 is at least equal to Freedom, 00 will win

Of course Freedom had to beat Providence. You are talking about the Hero of the series beating the Villain. Seriously. The Hero HAS TO defeat the Villain. We would not have much of a show if the Villain wins in the end yea?

In summary, In order to win like Freedom, 00-Raizer will have to destroy the Dragoons 1 at a time when the Dragoons are recharging.

And how is he going to make the Dragoons recharge? By dodging? Nope. Not even Kira and Freedom was able to dodge all the Dragoons.

By hiding in his GN Field? This would be a good way if not for the fact that the Dragoons can piece the GN Field since they are solid objects.

The Dragoons just need to knock off 1 GN Drive which is located in a very visible and unprotected area, than the 00-Raizer becomes a giant paperweight.

Freedom had the advantage of making the Providence waste energy due to the fact that the Providence went to engage the Earth Alliance forces.

00-Raizer does not have that advantage.

[Icehaku]

00 can just run until Providence's dragoons run out of energy. The dragoons are not as fast as 00 or freedom and could only blast the GN field which we've agreed is not penetrable by the Dragoon's beams. when the dragoons go in for recharge, 00 can just double back and wipe out Providence. Without its Dragoons, Legend is just a souped up strike

[Gekigangar]

00 can just run until Providence's dragoons run out of energy. The dragoons are not as fast as 00 or freedom and could only blast the GN field which we've agreed is not penetrable by the Dragoon's beams. when the dragoons go in for recharge, 00 can just double back and wipe out Providence.

00-Raizer will run to where? 00-Raizer may try running, if it does not mind getting knocked around like a pinball by half of the Dragoons while the other half attempt to piece the GN Field.

The problem with the GN Field, is that while it may protect the 00-Raizer, it makes the 00-Raizer much easier to hit.

The 00-Raizer is a bit fragile in my opinion. If you damage the 1 of the GN Drives, it becomes a paper weight.

If you damage the 0-Raizer on it's back, it's ability to regulate GN Particles goes out the window.

Additionally, Rau is no slouch when it comes to Close quarters combat.

The Phase Shift armor will give some protection against the Physical Blades. At least it will take some time for the Blades to totally cut/piece through, if not totally negate the damage. Not like a hot knife through butter which will give the Providence time to counter attack.

Plus there is the anti-beam coated shield to protect against the Beam Sabers.


Without its Dragoons, Legend is just a souped up strike

Why are you talking about Legend? Legend is basically a Providence that has been tweaked to allow people with Non-Spatial awareness to use it as well as some other minor modifications. Reduced Firepower for increased flexibility.

If you compare Gundams, almost every suit is a souped up Strike since all the Gundams are based off the GAT project. Freedom? A Strike with more guns. Justice? A Strike with a remote flying backpack.

[Yadomaru]

almost every suit is a souped up Strike since all the Gundams are based off the GAT project
Actually, the Duel Gundam was the first of the GAT-X series, so every GUNDAM(not every mobile suit, necessarily), would be a souped-up Duel(Except the Aegis, which uses a totally different internal frame from the others). Even the Strike - which would be just a Duel with half the thrusters, no beam sabers, and a bunch of extra optional backpacks.

[Meta]

Providence is really powerful,it will give a really hard time to 00-Raiser
Are we still talking about nameless pilots?

[Gekigangar]

Providence is really powerful,it will give a really hard time to 00-Raiser
Are we still talking about nameless pilots?

We are talking about their original pilots. And yes, Providence is extremely powerful. It would be more than a match for the 00-Raizer minus Trans-Am.

There is only 1 reason Rau lost in the series. Cuz he is the villain and he MUST lose one way or the other.

We already seen that even with the METEOR and it's superior speed it gives the Freedom, it was still no match against the Providence. So even if 00-Raizer has superior speed, it still will not matter.

[Nikato]

There is only 1 reason Rau lost in the series. Cuz he is the villain and he MUST lose one way or the other.

Rau wasn't a villian. He was a misunderstood and used clone.

He died because he went emo, which is funny considering he was fighting Kira.

[Keiretsu]

Rau wasn't a villian. He was a misunderstood and used clone.

He died because he went emo, which is funny considering he was fighting Kira.

Yeah. Although he was more of a batshit insane than emo.

I mean when you say emo, I think "Shinji Ikari".

[Gekigangar]

Rau wasn't a villian. He was a misunderstood and used clone.

He died because he went emo, which is funny considering he was fighting Kira.

Sure he was the villain.

Definition of villain : A dramatic or fictional character who is typically at odds with the hero.

At odds with Kira? Absolutely.

He died because he was the villain, simple as that.

[Icehaku]

Sure he was the villain.

Definition of villain : A dramatic or fictional character who is typically at odds with the hero.

At odds with Kira? Absolutely.

He died because he was the villain, simple as that.


We can't use that line of reasoning because then, every protagonist's skill level is grossly overestimated. Therefore, Char could be superior to Amuro in everyway but still lost only because he's the rival to the protagonist. This is wrong, Amuro is god of the Gundam universe. Scirocco should have beaten Kamille, but since Kamille is the hero, he had to lose. This is also wrong. Kamille had super saiyan newtype powers. We can't attribute every villains' loss as some sort of deus ex machina to make the hero win or else it undermines the entire skill level of the protagonist. The villain, in a way, serves to glorify the protagonist of every story as the protagonist defeats them and is assumed to be superior to them in a certain aspect (whether it be magic, strength, trickery, endurance, or in our case, piloting skill combined with the Gundam's abilities).

Therefore, we have to accept that Kira is better than Rau or else, the entire story is fake as the protagonist was supposed to lose, but still wins. What is the point of a story that leaves its major plot point (the hero vs villain) at a phony conclusion just to deliver a happy ending?

PS, I did mean Providence, not Legend in my previous post. And to prove that not all Gundam Seed Gundams are based off the Duel or the Strike...I present you with the RX-78 Gundam :idea:

[Gekigangar]

I can just ask you, which villain actually won in the final battle?

Personally, I can't think of any. They all lost one way or the other.

That is the main problem when you are using 1 Hero from 1 series to fight another End Villain from another series.

Thus we would have the : if Hero A can beat Villain A, than why can't Hero B beat Villain A too?

Hero A vs Hero B does not have that problem because they both have Hero" undefeated at End of Series" status and thus are considered equal.

Villain A vs Villain B does not have that problem either because they are both defeated and thus are considered equal.

So assuming everything else is equal, the Hero will win because he will have the "Hero" status.

Eg, Kira vs Rey. They were both doing so well against each other, both were not gaining any ground. All of a sudden, Kira blathers on some crap, and Rey eats a full Beam spam.

The only way a series Villain is able to defeat another series Hero is when the Villain is so powerful, that no one and nothing from that Hero's series is able to touch him/her/it.

[Icehaku]

Which villain wins in the final battle? hmmmmm, ever seen the older super robot shows like baldios? The whole earth gets flooded in waters because the enemy wins. There's a lot of apocalypse shows out there, not necessarily gundam or real robot, but yeah.

Following your line of logic then, we should not have this discussion at all because all cross series fights are rendered pointless because of plot devices and the statuses of the characters. By your point of logic, the hero of 8th Ms team, Shiro, would be equal to CCA Amuro Ray. No way. We have to disregard plot devices and only count the fact of who won or who lost.
Did Kira beat Rau? Yes. Have we established that 00 is at least equal to Freedom (piloting skills included)? Yes we have. Thus, 00=Freedom>Providence

[Gekigangar]

Which villain wins in the final battle? hmmmmm, ever seen the older super robot shows like baldios? The whole earth gets flooded in waters because the enemy wins. There's a lot of apocalypse shows out there, not necessarily gundam or real robot, but yeah.

I was mainly referring to Gundam series Hero vs Villain.

Sure, the apocalyptic series where more or less everyone dies can be considered the Villain 'wins', but too bad he is not alive to see it.


Following your line of logic then, we should not have this discussion at all because all cross series fights are rendered pointless because of plot devices and the statuses of the characters.

Some are, when they are used by plot armors/weapons.

Like when the Villain is kicking the Hero's ass all over the place/holding his own, than all of a sudden, the Hero receives a level up and trashed the villain with ease.


By your point of logic, the hero of 8th Ms team, Shiro, would be equal to CCA Amuro Ray. No way.

Like I said in my previous post, the End villain will only win if nothing in that Hero's series can touch the villain and his mech.

So who in the MS 08th series can stand up to any of Amuro's top level foes? No one.


We have to disregard plot devices and only count the fact of who won or who lost.

Precisely. Going by their technical specs, Providence is superior to Freedom Gundam.

Why did they give Dragoons to Strike Freedom? Because obviously it's superior to what the Freedom originally had.

And Rau was kicking Kira's ass around the first half of the battle. Before the plot called for Kira to have a level up and kill Rau.


Did Kira beat Rau? Yes. Have we established that 00 is at least equal to Freedom (piloting skills included)? Yes we have. Thus, 00=Freedom>Providence

And so by your argument, since

00-Raizer = Freedom

and since Freedom < Impulse, than obviously the Impulse will trash the 00-Raizer?

Here is plot armor/writing at it's best.

So we have Kira > Athrun.
Than Shinn > Kira.
So how did Athrun > Shinn?

Easy. The Heros must win.

[Icehaku]

I've only said that 00 is at LEAST equal to freedom.
From what 00 can do, even without trans-am, it could trash strike freedom easily, too.

[Gekigangar]

Trash the Strike Freedom?

Strike Freedom's beam shields are superior to GN Fields any day. From what we have seen, nothing has managed to penetrate the beam shields yet. Unlike the GN Fields where sufficient power or solid matter are able to go through it.

Although I would prefer the Providence/Legend's Dragoon systems compared to the Strike Freedom's Super Dragoons. More beams and more power.

Since Setsuna's style is to go melee, what can Kira do? Block his GN Swords/Blades/Sabers with his twin beam shields and Counter with a full blast from his Multi Phase Cannon in his abdomen at point blank range.

The GN Field is not gonna help him here as the range is too close.

Oh, and please no BS about since GN Blades can penetrate GN Fields, than it should be able to go through Beam Shields.

The beam shield generates a plane of energy similar to the blade of a beam saber. And we have seen in battle clashes between GN Blades and Beam Sabers, Beam Sabers slices through GN Blades.

So while the 00-Raizer might be able to defeat the Strike Freedom, it will only be able to do so narrowly with it's Trans-Am HAX. And not the Trashing you so envisioned.

[Wave_Rider]

Unlike the GN Fields where sufficient power or solid matter are able to go through it.
Nothing in SF can penetrate 00-Raiser either.

The beam shield generates a plane of energy similar to the blade of a beam saber. And we have seen in battle clashes between GN Blades and Beam Sabers, Beam Sabers slices through GN Blades.
Only with sufficient power. (5 beam saber fingers vs. weak Gn Blade; 1 Beam Saber vs. Junk Repair GN-Blade).
If your talking about 00-Raiser's blade, it'll take a miracle it cut it in half...

Since Setsuna's style is to go melee, what can Kira do?
Kira is screwed. He's more advantageous at distance battle. He should focus more on that.

Block his GN Swords/Blades/Sabers with his twin beam shields and Counter with a full blast from his Multi Phase Cannon in his abdomen at point blank range.
Two at the same time? Then that cannon at the abdomen won't even happen. If Kira wants to do it that way, he needs to open a path for it, which way 1 Gn-Sword II out of the way. And with that the other Gn-Sword is to come slashing through SF. gg

[Gekigangar]

Nothing in SF can penetrate 00-Raiser either.

Why not? 00-Raizer's armor is not made of nigh indestructible Gundanium...



Only with sufficient power. (5 beam saber fingers vs. weak Gn Blade; 1 Beam Saber vs. Junk Repair GN-Blade).
If your talking about 00-Raiser's blade, it'll take a miracle it cut it in half...

Any solid GN Blade gets cut by Beam sabers. This was shown over and over again.

And yes, beam sabers have the required power to cut through them.

Heck, enough blunt force can break a GN Sword as shown in the Exia vs Throne Zwei Fight.



Kira is screwed. He's more advantageous at distance battle. He should focus more on that.

He can melee well too. See his super sword play in Destiny. With 1 slash, he managed to magically slice the Chaos Gundam into several pieces....


Two at the same time? Then that cannon at the abdomen won't even happen. If Kira wants to do it that way, he needs to open a path for it, which way 1 Gn-Sword II out of the way. And with that the other Gn-Sword is to come slashing through SF. gg

What are you talking about?

00-Raizer only has 2 arms.

Right Beam shield blocks Setsuna's right hand weapon.

Left Beam shield blocks Setsuna's left hand weapon.

The path is clear for a point blank belly shot. GG.

But whatever.

Digressing from the point of 00-Gundam vs Providence Gundam.

Let's get back on topic.

[Wave_Rider]

Why not? 00-Raizer's armor is not made of nigh indestructible Gundanium...

Typo, I meant Gn-Field. Sorry.

Any solid GN Blade gets cut by Beam sabers. This was shown over and over again.

And yes, beam sabers have the required power to cut through them.
Though it's 00-Raisewr we're talking about here. The reason I said "it'll be a miracle to cut it in half" is not because it'll never get cut in forever, but because cutting it in half is a waste of time. 00-Raiser has stronger blade thanks to it's particle output. Gadessa finger sabers vs. 00-Raiser; Gadessa can't even cut the sword during the fight. A-Heads ( beam saber) vs. 00-Raiser (Gn-Sword), same thing.

What are you talking about?

00-Raizer only has 2 arms.

Right Beam shield blocks Setsuna's right hand weapon.

Left Beam shield blocks Setsuna's left hand weapon.
What I'm saying is is the arms have to make way for the belly cannon, and that is time wasted against Setsuna when meleeing. But then again, you might see different than I am, so let's just drop this one...

Meh, yah it was off topic, but can't help but put my say about those. Sorry for being off topic.



OK, Providence will win this round, because of its weaponry. The Dragoons can be enough to keep 00 for getting close.

[Fatstogey]

If you watch 00 then you'll see that those gundams are at a speed lvl of their own,way above the previous series' gundams
Idk what this Providence is,since I've only seen Seed and not SD,but there's not a chance in hell for it to speedblitze 00

I agree. I dont know where dudes gets that idea from.

Also im getting sick of the "00, oh but with no transam and without the riser."

THEN IT AINT HTE REAL FUCKING 00.

Like "who would win. Ichigo or Byakuya, but ichigo cant use his zanpakuto.
Why?

This is retarded and the 00 still wins. Cant kill what you cant hit.

Also commenting on his ability to get the thrones RC knives(idk thats what im callin em) and what not. Well we didtn see him employ certain techniques agaisnt them.

Like the blast he did on that one innovator. I cant remember his name. It was Brings identical twin. When setsuna whipped around the astroid and shot like an
automatic shotgun blast. Like he was shooting tons of smaller beams that spread out. Id imagine that being a VERY effective way to destroy the rc knives.

We didnt get to see him use it agaisnt them but its a feature the 00 has. And its one i see as being a very effective way of defeating the rc knives. So i dont really consider those being able to do anything.

No way some bullshit rc knives are gonna get the 00 gundam. Especially in an asteroid belt.

But before you post something about the 00 think to yourself "am i gonna say "without transam" if the answer is yes then stop your post right there.

Plus the 00 gundams got unlimited fuel and beam weapons until the end of time. So if you cannot kill em fast then your just gonna run outta gas.

[Gekigangar]

I agree. I dont know where dudes gets that idea from.

The Providence Gundam does not need to Blitz anything. Anymore like the Reborn Cannon needed to blitz the 00-Raizer.


Also commenting on his ability to get the thrones RC knives(idk thats what im callin em) and what not. Well we didtn see him employ certain techniques agaisnt them.

Like the blast he did on that one innovator. I cant remember his name. It was Brings identical twin. When setsuna whipped around the astroid and shot like an
automatic shotgun blast. Like he was shooting tons of smaller beams that spread out. Id imagine that being a VERY effective way to destroy the rc knives.

We didnt get to see him use it agaisnt them but its a feature the 00 has. And its one i see as being a very effective way of defeating the rc knives. So i dont really consider those being able to do anything.

No way some bullshit rc knives are gonna get the 00 gundam. Especially in an asteroid belt.

Dragoons are a whole new ball game compared to Fangs. Fangs mostly rely on crashing into the enemy.

So yes, you can play keep away and dodge them if you have fast enough reflexes and a fast enough suit.

Dragoons on the other hand, have the range of a beam rifle and no way are you going to play keep away.

I would still say beam speeds are faster than Fangs movement speeds.


But before you post something about the 00 think to yourself "am i gonna say "without transam" if the answer is yes then stop your post right there.

Plus the 00 gundams got unlimited fuel and beam weapons until the end of time. So if you cannot kill em fast then your just gonna run outta gas.

The problem here is the pilot. No human pilot is able to fight until the end of time.

So this talk about fighting until the end of time is pointless.

Unless it's some sort of AI battle system.

[Yadomaru]

Dragoons are a whole new ball game compared to Fangs. Fangs mostly rely on crashing into the enemy.
Not necessarily true. GN Fangs are equally capable of both long-range and melee attacks.

[Gekigangar]

Not necessarily true. GN Fangs are equally capable of both long-range and melee attacks.

That's why I said mostly. Not always.

Fangs are normally rammed into the enemy. I guess it's because they will deal lethal damage when rammed, compared to just shooting their single weak beams.

[Icehaku]

I say we ignore this Rau/Providence worshipper. He's the only one to say that Providence will win when the general consensus is that 00 wins. Majority>one guy who refuses to give up

[Gekigangar]

I say we ignore you.

Everybody has the right to their own opinion especially when they can back it up.

[Icehaku]

Who is we? Yourself and who? There was only alpinecrest2 who supported Providence and he's long gone, with wrong facts and calculations that he pulled out of his ass. Whatever. I'm not replying to this fail topic anymore. Someone please lock this, there's no point

[madis407]

Setsuna F Seiei will win

[aastik01]

Setsuna F Seiei will win!
No one can defeat him!