Komamura vs Noitora

[Kingkon]

Discuss away...

[Soujirou]

Nnoitra got the worst combination to go against Komamura, Slow+Close Ranged, he wont be fast enough neither to interrupt Komamura's Bankai supposedly by this forum "long cast time", nor to evade its attacks along with Komamura's, Nnoitra's weak Cero wont even count as a ranged attack, Komamura could block it with his hand or with Kokujo Tenge Myoo's hand just to be safe.

Nnoitra wouldn't be able to sustain the damage of Komamura and his bankai's massive attacks for long, even with his Hiero, and even if he scored some hits, it would take at least the same amount of damage required to bring Kenpachi down in order to defeat Komamura, since KT says that Komamura is the most resilient amongst the captains.

[skycrapper]

Nnoitora is too temperamental, and tend to make wrong decisions. To my opinion, in any battle, it's better to fight with calm head rather than go berserk, though some berserks inflict significant damage to defeat the whole army, but it's just in verry special cases.

I think Kommamura'll pwn Nnoitora . . .

[Nocturne' Ichigo]

From what we've seen...Komamura's bankai is a powerhouse that should be able to cut Nnoitra and unless Nnoitra can out maneuver him while keeping his cool.. i don't see him winning..

[GOWSRB]

This fight would essentially come down to how strong Sajin's bankai is. If for some reason he can hit as hard as Zaraki can (kendo or not) then this fight pretty much goes to Sajin.

[justin43]

For people who don't know the actual strength of Komamura's bankai, a lot of people are voting for him. There is no evidence whatsover that Komamura's bankai is equal or greater than Kenpachi's kendo slash.:nono: Until there is such evidence, I will go with Noitora.

One-shotting fraccion, who are at best high VC level, doesn't cut it.

[Feranor]

Not enough information... we can assume that Komamura using Bankai can hold his own against patched one handed Zaraki, because they most likely did at least some fighting (though it wasn't shown explicitly), but that isn't enough to determine if he's capable of defeating Noitorra.

[kochito22]

No. Zaraki said that Komamura ran off without fighting.

[Feranor]

No. Zaraki said that Komamura ran off without fighting.

No. Komamura ran off when he sensed Yamamoto going Shikai.

http://static.bleachexile.com/manga/bleach/156/156-01.jpg

Which means that they had some time to fight (between the Sokyouku release and Yama starting to engage Shunsui and Ukitake).

[kochito22]

Rather than hunting down the page, I watched the anime on Youtube. It said he ran off before they got started. I blame the writers.

[Heavenly Reaper]

Komomura would be about to use his Bankai to keep him safe. Plus Noitara would eventually get mad and start acting stupid. Komomura would stay cool and level headed and completely destroy Noitara

[Stri]

Rather than hunting down the page, I watched the anime on Youtube. It said he ran off before they got started. I blame the writers.

Which is why you shouldn't use the anime to make a point, since it isn't canon. As far as the topic goes, Justin pretty much answered it already. Noitora.

[chinaman1472]

Uh, Komamura's only knocked out Po, who isn't even Espada-level. He might have the potential to beat Noitora, but no evidence has been shown that he really can, yet.

[Delta]

Komamura's shikai attack hit Kenpachi head on (no blocking or dodging) and it did absolutely nothing. His bankai is extremely similar. Now, how will something that wouldn't hurt Kenpachi actually hurt Nnoitora?

[Kingkon]

Komamura's shikai attack hit Kenpachi head on (no blocking or dodging) and it did absolutely nothing. His bankai is extremely similar. Now, how will something that wouldn't hurt Kenpachi actually hurt Nnoitora?

Too bad Komamura actually never used his shikai against Kenpachi, the only attack he ever used on Kenpachi was with an energy blast with a sealed shikai

[Kingkon]

For people who don't know the actual strength of Komamura's bankai, a lot of people are voting for him.
Well arent you going for Noitora because you don't know the actual stregth of Komamura's bankai?

[Delta]

Too bad Komamura actually never used his shikai against Kenpachi, the only attack he ever used on Kenpachi was with an energy blast with a sealed shikai

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/139/12/

....Yes he did....

[justin43]

[QUOTE=justin43;1699662]For people who don't know the actual strength of Komamura's bankai, a lot of people are voting for him. QUOTE]
Well arent you going for Noitora because you don't know the actual stregth of Komamura's bankai?

Well, you made this thread:oh:, so I made my decision based on Komamura's best feat as of yet, which is one-shotting a fraccion with his bankai. That is such a great accomplishment.:amazed::sarcasm: This is all the evidence we have, but I understand your point. However, no one who voted for Komamura has any evidence suggest he can beat Noitora.

[Kingkon]

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/139/12/

....Yes he did....

I don't know man as Komamura never said a release command or his zanpakto's name, also the anime didn't show he released (for whats thats worth)

[Delta]

I don't know man as Komamura never said a release command or his zanpakto's name, also the anime didn't show he released (for whats thats worth)

Bankai users don't have to say the release for their shikais =D

[Lnrd]

I don't know man as Komamura never said a release command or his zanpakto's name, also the anime didn't show he released (for whats thats worth)

Byakuya said it himself people who have achieved bankai don't have to say the name of their shikai form to use it.

[Afrojack]

There's no way that was his normal arm, and the anime cannot be trusted. Delta brings up a good point about bankai users not having to say anything to release the shikai, and right now that's really the only viable explanation.

Justin and chinaman1472 also have good points. Though the potential might be there, there is absolutely no reason to assume Koma's ability to harm Noi besides the size of his bankai, and mass in Bleach has shown itself to be of little relevance in relation to actual strength. Going by that, I see no reason as of yet that Noi shouldn't be able to beat Koma, because if all Koma can do is defend himself then Noi can just wait until an opening presents itself. Though he is not shown to be fast he is not particularly slow either, so I can't see Koma being too much faster than him either, if at all.

[NigaDem]

there isnt enough info on Koma to pit him in a major fight like this.....

[Spectre]

Nnoitra could take this if it werent for his freakin' hige scythe and slow movement!! If only he could dodge his huge Ban Kai' attacks!!

[MissTaken]

It seems like Komamura could win if he keeps his cool.

[Intense]

Though the potential might be there, there is absolutely no reason to assume Koma's ability to harm Noi besides the size of his bankai

There's little indication of what is needed to hurt Komamura either, the only thing that did so far was Aizen's hadou.

[Afrojack]

However, there's nothing to say he can't be cut either. He, unlike Noi, has no hierro. If Noi gets a hit in, there's nothing to say he won't be cut. Until we learn more about Koma, he loses by default.

[Lnrd]

However, there's nothing to say he can't be cut either. He, unlike Noi, has no hierro. If Noi gets a hit in, there's nothing to say he won't be cut. Until we learn more about Koma, he loses by default.

Agreed.

[NigaDem]

However, there's nothing to say he can't be cut either. He, unlike Noi, has no hierro. If Noi gets a hit in, there's nothing to say he won't be cut. Until we learn more about Koma, he loses by default.

loses by default is bull, at least reserve judgement until we seen more from Koma

[Afrojack]

The key words in that statement were "until we learn more about Koma." My judgement is reserved.

[Soujirou]

Holy ignorance Batman! oh it is just Afrojack and Lnrd, again

Strangely enough, contradicting your theory of Nnoitra being unbeatable on a close battle because of his Hiero, Kenpachi won a battle of attrition where he got hit many times more than Nnoitra, the Hiero user, did, and according to Kubo's official stats, Komamura got 20 endurance points more than Kenpachi, so logic tells us that Koma would require more attacks in order to fell down than kenpachi.

While having the same offense power of 100, that meaning both of them can potentially hit with approximately with the same might, but losing at agility by far,but we wont see Nnoi speedblizing Koma anytime soon right? Since Koma got Shunpo while Nnoi cant Sonido.

Hell, if i were to bet, i would say that Komamura's Tenge (shikai) would hurt more than patched Kenpachi cuts, which by the way, pierced Nnoitra Hiero, and since it is a common belief that Ken's unpatching is equivalent to Bankai, Koma's Giant dude would really hurt Nnoi, wouldn't it? Since any successful unpatched Kenpachi slash meant one less arm for Nnoi.

Now lets sum things up for god sake

-Koma can tank plenty of Nnoi attacks
-Koma got a 200 meter tall sidekick
-Koma can Shunpo
-It would be damn easy for Koma to Pierce Nnoi Hiero, Since Ken could doit with his weakest attacks
-If you were to compare Kokujo Tenge Myoo's sword attack effect with ken's two handed cut, you would reach the conclusion that Nnoi would die on both cases.
-Nnoi got no advantage whatsoever, any attack he tried, be it on unreleased or released form, would result on him being crushed, and he would have really deserved that, since what kind of retard would charge directly at someone twice as big as him accompanied by a guardian that is 50 times as big as him.

Hell as a closing statement, damn, why does Nnoitra have fans, his fighting style was even more boring than Ichigo's, all he did was swing his axe around and take hits, and after his resurrection, he got more axes to swing!-.-
Damn, Both Grimmjow and Szayel seemed more threatening than Nnoitra, at least they had some tricks on their sleeves.

The way this match up is set will end up on failure no matter what.

Many Ichigo fans are also Kenpachi fans, because their characters are so similar, Nnoi Defeated Ichigo, so for Ichigo's fans, Nnoitra is really something, Kenpachi fans, will relate Kenpachi having trouble with Nnoitra when they fought and his fight with Komamura back on SS, where, from their view, Koma got wtfpwnd, and will automatically choose Nnoitra, so, because of Nnoitra being related to two very popular characters, and Koma being a very unpopular one, we will see a lot of logic defiling theories here, remember, the power levels at Bleach are defined by two factors, Popularity and Air-Time, so either Pit Koma against another very unpopular character like Kon or Don Kanoji, or watch him being defeated at every single matchup, most probably the latter, since Im probably the only one who cares the slight about Komamura reputation.

[Afrojack]

Are you serious? You're using the stat book? How about actual canon, where the strongest opponent Koma has killed is a Fraccion? You seriously had the nerve to come in here and neg rep me because I disagreed with you based on canon? I never said he was unbeatable. I said there wasn't enough information. God, your stupidity is staggering.

And then you call me ignorant? Fucking ridiculous.

[Soujirou]

Sure i do, since you choose to ignore the fact that the fraction was fking killed in one blow
and about the stats, they where written by our fanservice wizard Kubo, so i heard, therefore this making them canon or close to it.

Where you presented zero canon evidence saying why would Koma lose.

Neg me again, i care about this by about as much as i care about the poor African children's health.

[Afrojack]

Going by the stats book, Hitsugaya is one of the best captains, which everyone knows is ridiculous. Nobody knows how they were formulated or how they relate to the manga, so no, they are not as good as canon. Also, if you could actually read my posts, you would have seen that I said there's nothing suggesting in the manga that Koma is anywhere near Noi. That's all I said. Stop putting words in my mouth and cracking lame-ass jokes to cover up for your incompetence.

[Soujirou]

But Nnoi is surely cool and badass because he took longer to defeated a half dead Ichigo than Koma did to defeat a healthy fraction who had just effortlessly defeated someone of about the same level as Renji, and then got defeated by the one who Ichigo beated with his Shikai, Nnoi never ceases to amaze me with his awesome and canon feats.

That is manga content for u, now just leave it as it is, lets not let this discussion go past slight retarded level just because you like Ichigo and Zaraki while i like Komamura.

And just for the record, at some bleach fansites around the world, Hitsugaya is said to be even stronger than Yamamoto, just to see how our way of thinking at this site with something around 60 or so active users is the absolute truth about bleach.

[Mikeno]

This is quite possibly Komas best Espada match outside of Yammi.. but the introduction of the fact that Koma hasn't faced (been shown to have) or defeated anyone of note is meaningful.. I believe he would win but there is little in evidence to say he would.. Afrojack's logic seems reasonable to me..

[Rinda Man]

don't tell me u guys still don't know how to uses the databook properly.:oh:


And just for the record, at some bleach fansites around the world, Hitsugaya is said to be even stronger than Yamamoto.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA

[skycrapper]

. . . And just for the record, at some bleach fansites around the world, Hitsugaya is said to be even stronger than Yamamoto, just to see how our way of thinking at this site with something around 60 or so active users is the absolute truth about bleach.

What? Because ice beats fire, right? Hmmm . . . :idea:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Indeed (cough) sorry (cough) HMPPPFT

[Oxyuranus]

But Nnoi is surely cool and badass because he took longer to defeated a half dead Ichigo than Koma did to defeat a healthy fraction who had just effortlessly defeated someone of about the same level as Renji, and then got defeated by the one who Ichigo beated with his Shikai, Nnoi never ceases to amaze me with his awesome and canon feats.

That is manga content for u, now just leave it as it is, lets not let this discussion go past slight retarded level just because you like Ichigo and Zaraki while i like Komamura.

And just for the record, at some bleach fansites around the world, Hitsugaya is said to be even stronger than Yamamoto, just to see how our way of thinking at this site with something around 60 or so active users is the absolute truth about bleach.


Keep in mind that the loldatabook also had Kenpachi as the weakest in reiatsu which is the biggest nonsense the world has ever seen considering that his reiatsu is in the top 6 or so of everyone shown in the series and will undoubtedly increase considering it is his theme.

Also keep in mind that Komoa had to bankai a fraccion. Granted his bankai 1 shotted said fraccion but he still had to go all out.

Sajin is strong and durable but to put him in front of noitoria or winning aginst him dosent sit too well with me. Im not saying he gets curbbed stompped but i dont think he would win aginst Noi's herrio.

We still have yet to really se Sajin in the spot light so perhaps hes much stronger then we think but until such time I just dont see it happening aginst Noi.

[Kingkon]

Also keep in mind that Komoa had to bankai a fraccion. Granted his bankai 1 shotted said fraccion but he still had to go all out. No he didn't have to. He manhandled a 20 ft. Po to the ground, he only whiped out his bankai when Po compared him to a worm, so Komamura released his gigantic Bankai to make Po feel small so he could return the insult


Sajin is strong and durable but to put him in front of noitoria or winning aginst him dosent sit too well with me. Im not saying he gets curbbed stompped but i dont think he would win aginst Noi's herrio. Noitora's Heirro isn't some magical defense system that is impossible to break through if eyepatched Zaraki was able to cut him why not a 50 Ft behemoth? and how could Noitora get through Komamuras 50 ft Bankai that is essentialy covered in armor?

This Noitora wining by default thing isn't really a good point, because flip that the only person Noi has beaten so far has so far only been Chad, and captains have been beating Espada's without too much trouble so people could just say Komamura wins by default, but thats just bull.

[jayshow]

Sure i do, since you choose to ignore the fact that the fraction was fking killed in one blow
and about the stats, they where written by our fanservice wizard Kubo, so i heard, therefore this making them canon or close to it.

Where you presented zero canon evidence saying why would Koma lose.

Neg me again, i care about this by about as much as i care about the poor African children's health.

Guess what genius, the databook stats represent how far each captain has progressed in terms of their own limit/potential in those areas. Get your translation of the databook straightened out. So an 80 in endurance for Kenpachi does NOT equal an 80 in endurance for another character.

What fools like you do is think the stats are meant to be used when comparing captains's power levels. But since each numerical value in each category relates to the person's progression towards their max potential, it means absolutely nothing when comparing captain to captain.

So Gin's all around 80s mean he's still 20% away from reaching his maximum fighting potential in each category. NOT that he is weaker than Toushiro, who has higher numbers.

But then you guys will say "but Aizen said he reached his limit, how come he;s not 100 in every category?", or "but Toushiro is still young, how come hes already above 80 in every category, doesn't that mean he won't get a lot stronger?" .....


then TOO bad, don't use the damn databook then. It's garbage anyways. Kubo really shitted on himself with the book, for it makes no sense and contradicts canon material.

Have a pleasant evening.

[Soujirou]

To say the truth, the only thing Kubo did right was to create the 13 gotei captains, because 5 or so of them are cool and got interesting personalities, because the plot is non-existent, Ichigo's Nakama fought only cannon fodder enemies who could have not been there at all without any impact on the storyline, the Espadas are more like the enemy monsters from Mighty Morphin Power Rangers and on top of that, Kubo have been focusing on the most useless anime character ever (Inoue) and the most irritating main character ever (Ichigo), so after reading hundreds of bad quality manga chapters only waiting for those few good characters to get some development or back story, im beginning to think that this is wasted time since this series in mainly centered on its main character, and since the good guys fking outnumber the bad guys by far, minor characters such as the captains get little to no development.

And by the way, what im still doing on a forum filled with rabid fanboys who see only what they want to see, and accept no opinions or anything the like, I took crap from your kind for too long already and i really dont need to.

[Stri]

Anyone care to explain why Komamura is in the lead in this poll? This is ridiculous.

[spree]

Anyone care to explain why Komamura is in the lead in this poll? This is ridiculous.

lol. Simply because Nnoitra is weaker than Komamura in everyone's assumption. One punch from the bankai of Komamura can kill Nnoitra with no sweat. lol

[Razvan_Asakura]

For people who don't know the actual strength of Komamura's bankai, a lot of people are voting for him. There is no evidence whatsover that Komamura's bankai is equal or greater than Kenpachi's kendo slash.:nono: Until there is such evidence, I will go with Noitora.

One-shotting fraccion, who are at best high VC level, doesn't cut it.

You seem to forget that one of the fraccions pet, defeated 3 VC's like nothing.
So, what you're saying that a VC could one-shot a fraccion is absolute bullshit.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2itk6yp.jpg

If everyone remembers, this fraccion defeated Ikkaku and he seems to have not received any injuries. Ikkaku was at VC lvl, not engaging bankai.
Koma also received a big ass punch, http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-339-page-17.html , so, I guess, Komamura can take damage and not get injured that fast.

He took on one of this guys punches as well in release mode and withstood it with no problem.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-340-page-3.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-340-page-7.html

And he threw him over. lol
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-340-page-9.html

So, yeah, Komamura one-shotted Barragan's strongest fraccion [2nd Espada's best fraccion], so, if he goes all out & is serious about the fight like he was here, I'm pretty sure he could beat Nnoitra faster than it took Zaraki.

Not to mention that as far as I know his data book, he knows kidou as well, he has a higher percent of intelligence and an actual sword fighting style. Not just swinging the sword randomly.

[justin43]

You seem to forget that one of the fraccions pet, defeated 3 VC's like nothing.
So, what you're saying that a VC could one-shot a fraccion is absolute bullshit.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2itk6yp.jpg

If everyone remembers, this fraccion defeated Ikkaku and he seems to have not received any injuries. Ikkaku was at VC lvl, not engaging bankai.
Koma also received a big ass punch, http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-339-page-17.html , so, I guess, Komamura can take damage and not get injured that fast.

He took on one of this guys punches as well in release mode and withstood it with no problem.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-340-page-3.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-340-page-7.html

And he threw him over. lol
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-340-page-9.html

So, yeah, Komamura one-shotted Barragan's strongest fraccion [2nd Espada's best fraccion], so, if he goes all out & is serious about the fight like he was here, I'm pretty sure he could beat Nnoitra faster than it took Zaraki.

Not to mention that as far as I know his data book, he knows kidou as well, he has a higher percent of intelligence and an actual sword fighting style. Not just swinging the sword randomly.

You can't base Komamura winning against Noitora on a fraccion fight. Komamura took a punch from a released fraccion. Big deal. Yammi beat a released fraccion while remaining unreleased. That perfectly showed the difference between a fraccion and an espada. Yammi is 10. What would be the power gap between 5th and a fraccion?:rolleyes:

[Razvan_Asakura]

You can't base Komamura winning against Noitora on a fraccion fight. Komamura took a punch from a released fraccion. Big deal. Yammi beat a released fraccion while remaining unreleased. That perfectly showed the difference between a fraccion and an espada. Yammi is 10. What would be the power gap between 5th and a fraccion?:rolleyes:

So, what you're saying is that Komamura won't be able to defeat even Yammy? hmmm.

Well, my facts are just based on the fights that already occured in Bleach & from everybody's data book. Since we don't have enough info to deal the actual real sentence.

I still say, Koma > Nnoitra by a mile difference. Already stated why.

[justin43]

Notice I never said that Komamura can't beat Yammi. I am saying that you can't use fraccion battles to prove that Komamura can beat Noitora since even Yammi treated one like trash. I will say it again. There is no evidence that Komamura can beat Noitora. None.

[Razvan_Asakura]

Notice I never said that Komamura can't beat Yammi. I am saying that you can't use fraccion battles to prove that Komamura can beat Noitora since even Yammi treated one like trash. I will say it again. There is no evidence that Komamura can beat Noitora. None.

I so didn't wanted to do this here, especially because of all the Zaraki fanboys, but, if YOU, say we can't make the outcome of this battle-match from their fights so far, then I'm just gonna use the data books, and compare them.


7th division captain: Komamura Sajin

Squad flower: Iris (Courage)
Caption: Unshakeable, stable loyalty

Personal Data
Birthdate: 23rd Aug
Height: 288cm
Weight: 301kg
Zanpakutou: Tenken
Bankai: Kokujyou Tengen Myou-ou
Colour of the underside of captain's robe: brownish tan
Interest: looking after dogs
Speciality: talking to animals
Food: Likes meat. Dislikes carrots.
How to past free time: takes his dog, Goro, for a stroll

Battle stats
Power: 100
Defense: 100
Mobility: 40
Kidou/Reiatsu: 50
Wisdom: 80
Stamina: 100

11th division captain: Zaraki Kenpachi

Squad flower: Yarrow (battle)
Caption: Consume everything, demon of the blood-thirsty sword

Personal Data
Birthdate: 19th Nov
Height: 202cm
Weight: 90kg
Colour of the underside of captain's robe: deep purple
Interest: afternoon napping
Speciality: sparring
Food: No particular likes. Dislikes nattou.
How to past free time: afternoon napping

Battle stats
Power: 100
Defense: 80
Mobility: 60
Kidou/Reiatsu: 0
Wisdom: 50
Stamina: 100

Komamura has enough strength as Zaraki. Yet he also has 100% defensive. A little bit less mobility, but more wisdom & kidou/reiatsu. Also his stamina is like zaraki's, 100%.

Point taken that he's at least at Zaraki's lvl. + has a lot more kidou, I would safely assume the fight would end with the winner Komamura. And since he won't be toying like Zaraki, it will end a lot more quicker. Like before Nnoitra could even release, not that would mean much.

[justin43]

Never use the databooks. The databooks only show potenial not actual strength. That only means that both Komamura and Kenpachi has reached their max potenial in physical strength. That doesn't mean that Komamura's 100 will equal Kenpachi's 100. It also means that Komamura's 100 defense may be weaker than Kenpachi's 80 defense. I only use the manga to prove a point since the databooks are not very useful in determining actual battle strength.

[Razvan_Asakura]

That means, this battle-match will end with a default, and someone needs to ask a mod to close it since it will just result in fanboy replies, since we can't make the outcome of it.

Never use the databooks. The databooks only show potenial not actual strength. That only means that both Komamura and Kenpachi has reached their max potenial in physical strength. That doesn't mean that Komamura's 100 will equal Kenpachi's 100. It also means that Komamura's 100 defense may be weaker than Kenpachi's 80 defense. I only use the manga to prove a point since the databooks are not very useful in determining actual battle strength.

But, still, just for the fun of it...isn't like Komamura really big with 100% potential strength + having a huge bankai & Nnoitra is like dumb and not very fast? Wouldn't Komamura just one-shot the little octopus? My point.

[justin43]

Mass really doesn't matter in bleach. Take Komamura vs. Po as an example. You would think that the fraccion would be more powerful than any espada due to size, but we know that is not true. Similar concept with Komamura's bankai and Noitora since we don't know how strong Komamura's bankai really is. Can't you close it since you are a mod?:unsure:

[Razvan_Asakura]

Mass really doesn't matter in bleach. Take Komamura vs. Po as an example. You would think that the fraccion would be more powerful than any espada due to size, but we know that is not true. Similar concept with Komamura's bankai and Noitora since we don't know how strong Komamura's bankai really is. Can't you close it since you are a mod?:unsure:

lol, mass counts. that's why Komamura went bankai. haha
Komamura punches POO, POO punches Komamura, goes released form...Komamura is overwhelmed & goes bankai. then, one-shots the fraccion. so mass counts. and, I'm just a mod. in the 6th.

[justin43]

lol, mass counts. that's why Komamura went bankai. haha
Komamura punches POO, POO punches Komamura, goes released form...Komamura is overwhelmed & goes bankai. then, one-shots the fraccion. so mass counts. and, I'm just a mod. in the 6th.

It doesn't count enough for large power gaps to be overcome. Komamura was stronger in reiatsu that's all. You wouldn't expect Noitora to have any trouble with Po would you. That is the main point. We need to know for certain if Komamura or Noitora has the power advantage and by how much before we can decide on a true winner. Otherwise, Noitora just wins by default.

[Razvan_Asakura]

Otherwise, Noitora just wins by default.

That's a matter of opinion. I could very well say...

"Nnoitra's way to little, so Komamura wins by default." - fanboy reply -.-

Normally, I would just go and say, that no captain has lost so far to an arrancar/espada, so, Komamura still wins by default lol

[Kingkon]

Anyone care to explain why Komamura is in the lead in this poll? This is ridiculous.

Can you tell me why he shoudn't be, other than Noitora winning by default? The most ridiculous arguement I've ever heard, as Kenpachi voters has never explained how Noitora could get through Komamura's bankai. Every captain has beaten the espadas quite easily and the only person Noi has beaten is Chad so by default doesn't Komamura win?

[justin43]

That's a matter of opinion. I could very well say...

"Nnoitra's way to little, so Komamura wins by default." - fanboy reply -.-

Normally, I would just go and say, that no captain has lost so far to an arrancar/espada, so, Komamura still wins by default lol

Afrojack put it best. While Komamura may have the potenial to beat Noitora, there is nothing to suggest that Komamura has the power to beat Noitora. Simply, beating a fraccion does mean he can beat the number 5 espada. That is too much of a jump of power gap between 5th espada and Po for me to say that Komamura wins. The best decision may be to wait before passing final judgement, but as it stands now, Noitora has better feats, so he does in fact win by default.

@Kingkon
No, when Komamura hasn't even proven that he can force Kenpachi to remove his eyepatch even with bankai. Noitora actually accomplished that much. End thread.

P.S. I am not a Zaraki fanboy.

[Darkmaterials]

Can you tell me why he shoudn't be, other than Noitora winning by default? The most ridiculous arguement I've ever heard, as Kenpachi voters has never explained how Noitora could get through Komamura's bankai.

Nnoitra has better feats, if you're going to vote based on what we know now you should go with the one with better feats tbh.


Every captain has beaten the espadas quite easily and the only person Noi has beaten is Chad so by default doesn't Komamura win?

Normally, I would just go and say, that no captain has lost so far to an arrancar/espada, so, Komamura still wins by default lol

Following this line of logic Hitsugaya is going to beat Halibel =P.


@Kingkon
No, when Komamura hasn't even proven that he can force Kenpachi to remove his eyepatch even with bankai. Noitora actually accomplished that much. End thread.

It's not really certain whether or not they fought, or whether Zaraki has to remove his patch if they did.

I'd just go with Nnoitra being better than unpatched Zaraki as a feat (that and his espada rank) and leave it at that, Komamura doesn't have a feat to match it.

[IchiGin]

Koma Koma wins... Bankai Koma=Squashed Hard-Hierro Noi resurrected

[chinaman1472]

Can you tell me why he shoudn't be, other than Noitora winning by default? The most ridiculous arguement I've ever heard, as Kenpachi voters has never explained how Noitora could get through Komamura's bankai. Every captain has beaten the espadas quite easily and the only person Noi has beaten is Chad so by default doesn't Komamura win?

Then by your logic, any Captain could beat any Espada. :rolleyes: Oh wait, Hitsugaya got uberpwnd by Halibel.

Komamura hasn't shown anything more impressive than Noitora. He knocked out Po, who once again, isn't even Espada. It's impossible to gauge how much damage that would actually do to Noitora.

Databooks were written a long time ago. Get with the times. Newer evidence > older evidence.

[kochito22]

Can you tell me why he shoudn't be, other than Noitora winning by default? The most ridiculous arguement I've ever heard, as Kenpachi voters has never explained how Noitora could get through Komamura's bankai. Every captain has beaten the espadas quite easily and the only person Noi has beaten is Chad so by default doesn't Komamura win?

I dunno about that. Hitsugaya didn't beat Luppi easily. He didn't phase Yammy either.

[Intense]

Nnoitra has better feats, if you're going to vote based on what we know now you should go with the one with better feats tbh.

Komamura's lack of feats shouldn't be reason for his defeat but the pointlessness of this match-up.

[kaname95]

Is it just me or does it seem like all of the Komamura supporters think that Noitora is just going to stand up there and get hit by Komamura's bankai's attack.Last time i checked he can still try to dodge or at the very least block i mean the guy has six sythes or axes.

ps-I am a neutral

[AizenvsUrahara]

a)Nnoitra has better feats, if you're going to vote based on what we know now you should go with the one with better feats tbh.


Following this line of logic Hitsugaya is going to beat Halibel =P.




b)It's not really certain whether or not they fought, or whether Zaraki has to remove his patch if they did.

c)I'd just go with Nnoitra being better than unpatched Zaraki as a feat (that and his espada rank) and leave it at that, Komamura doesn't have a feat to match it.

a)noitora might have better feats but cuz he has better feat he beats koma by your logic Noitora >> Unohana since she doest have any feats

B)you can`t compair zaraki to anyone since he has plotkai on his side or all his opponents have CIS/PIS

C)A>B>C logic does`t apply to bleach

[justin43]

a)noitora might have better feats but cuz he has better feat he beats koma by your logic Noitora >> Unohana since she doest have any feats

B)you can`t compair zaraki to anyone since he has plotkai on his side or all his opponents have CIS/PIS

C)A>B>C logic does`t apply to bleach

A. Until then, yes in a battle thread based on evidence, which is why there isn't a Unohana versus anyone thread open because she hasn't even fight a battle yet.

B. No.

C. It works in this case because Noitora beat patched Zaraki and force Zaraki to use full power. What has Komamura done to Zaraki again?:rolleyes:

Unlike Unohana, Komamura has fought a battle and used bankai on a fraccion. Komamura activated his bankai against patched Zaraki, but Zaraki didn't even think of removing his patch. These are Komamura's feats. Komamura hasn't proven himself worthy of beating Noitora based off these feats. Hence, my shock at the polls when I see Komamura ahead in the polls for no other reason than Komamura's bankai must be strong enough to beat the 5th espada since it is big. That is a very weak agrument. If size equals power, then Po must have been stronger than the espada.:sarcasm: We know this is not true.

[He's a Mentalist]

I was hoping that first fight with Zaraki was some plot/character advancement for him because he was beaten by a shikai Ichigo. Once I saw Tousen and his character I was kind of leaning that way, but then we got to the fraccion vs. Komammura. Komammura was thrown easily by that fraccion which was acceptable for me, but then he immediately pulled out bankai. I was like, "wtf is this shit?" (I use obcentities when things get ridiculous). He then decimated the fraccion with his bankai and I was still like wtf? An opponent who is much stronger than his opponent need not show his full power in front of high tier enemies that are still lurking around.

I voted Nnoitra.

Nnoitra did not immediately go resurrection once Zaraki cut him.

[Intense]

Komamura didn't need to use bankai, he was like 'oh you think you're big, take a look at this!'

[GOWSRB]

Komamura didn't need to use bankai, he was like 'oh you think you're big, take a look at this!'

I have to agree with this. It's not in Komamura's nature to hold back when he fights, as said by himself and other characters. Each time we have seen him fight, he was more than willing to use his bankai, whether he would've needed to or not. And the fact that from the chapters it looked like Po was crushed more by the size of the sword moreso than the actual force of the attack itself, suggests that he really had no reason whatsoever to go bankai against Po. Shikai would have more than likely sufficed.

[Vergil]

The votes are nearly even...
If Komamura is big that doesnt mean that his size makes him strong - so it is Nnoitora all the way.

[justin43]

Looks like my argument is winning since the poll was still in favor of Komamura when I posted last.:amused:

[AizenvsUrahara]

A. Until then, yes in a battle thread based on evidence, which is why there isn't a Unohana versus anyone thread open because she hasn't even fight a battle yet.

B. No.

C. It works in this case because Noitora beat patched Zaraki and force Zaraki to use full power. What has Komamura done to Zaraki again?:rolleyes:

Unlike Unohana, Komamura has fought a battle and used bankai on a fraccion. Komamura activated his bankai against patched Zaraki, but Zaraki didn't even think of removing his patch. These are Komamura's feats. Komamura hasn't proven himself worthy of beating Noitora based off these feats. Hence, my shock at the polls when I see Komamura ahead in the polls for no other reason than Komamura's bankai must be strong enough to beat the 5th espada since it is big. That is a very weak agrument. If size equals power, then Po must have been stronger than the espada.:sarcasm: We know this is not true.
A)fair enough

B)how can you say that ?after tbtp series it showed how effective tousen`s bankai was and that he could take multiple cap-level fighter down as a 3dr seat and yet you`r saying that that zaraki won whiout pis/cis

C)i do agree whit you that it aint a reson for koma to win cuz he has a big bankai but hes still is a captain so give him some credits for that .Whit the exeption of hitsugaya every captain>>>espada they fought .the whole HM arc was to show that the captain were supiriour to the espadas ,HM=Humilation arc

[justin43]

A)fair enough

B)how can you say that ?after tbtp series it showed how effective tousen`s bankai was and that he could take multiple cap-level fighter down as a 3dr seat and yet you`r saying that that zaraki won whiout pis/cis

C)i do agree whit you that it aint a reson for koma to win cuz he has a big bankai but hes still is a captain so give him some credits for that .Whit the exeption of hitsugaya every captain>>>espada they fought .the whole HM arc was to show that the captain were supiriour to the espadas ,HM=Humilation arc

A. As long as you agree

B. The same can be said for Byakuya winning against Zommari. Zommari could have taken over the head and it would have been over. Therefore Byakuya < Zommari.:amused:

C. That doesn't mean that Komamura is going to win against Noitora. That doesn't mean that Soi Fon is going to kill the number 2 espada either. Soi Fon can't win against Noitora either. Captain Level doesn't guarantee a win against any of the espada. You need the correct amount of power, speed, and skill. Komamura, as of right now, hasn't proven that he got the power requirement.

[AizenvsUrahara]

A. As long as you agree

B. The same can be said for Byakuya winning against Zommari. Zommari could have taken over the head and it would have been over. Therefore Byakuya < Zommari.:amused:

C. That does mean that Komamura is going to win against Noitora. That doesn't mean that Soi Fon is going to kill the number 2 espada either. Soi Fon can't win against Noitora either. Captain Level doesn't guarantee a win against any of the espada. You need the correct amount of power, speed, and skill. Komamura, as of right now, hasn't proven that he got the power requirement.

B)it would have if zammori had brains

C)that not the same you are implying that i said that every captain could take any espada down.Soi Fon can win against noitora since her shikai is haxxed as hell and since noitora would be be boosting about that he has the strongest hierro and that she can`t cut him this fight would last that long since unlike yoruichi he has`t have much speed.i don`know what if she can win against barragan ,she probably can`t but i do agree that you need the correct power ,speed and skill to win a fight but it does`t apply to you if your shikai is haxxed but koma is another story he never lost to zaraki and he did`t need to use his bankai to beat that fraccion .he just wanted to end the fight quickly, show po that neither of them was a big man despite their huge physics and restore the damage to the f.k town and he did`t wanted to waist his strength since he probable would fight a ex-captain or a espada .for once a captain put his pride a side and did the smart thing unlike the others he saw the big picture and that was to protect the f.k town unlike soi fon who decided to play around just to see the strength of a arrancar`s resurrection

[Paragon]

In fairness people often use the term 'plotkai' when it suits their agenda. Tousen went Bankai against Kenpachi and could have essentially from that moment on one shot Kenpachi by simply slicing off his head yet he didn't and as a result lost yet no one sees that victory from Kenpachi as plotkai...ok. But when its Rukia now who defeats AA because he essentially did the same thing as Tousen in becoming complacent, everyone sees that victory as plotkai even though the end result was the same. O_o And i don't even really like Rukia but thats why the term 'plotkai' is bullshit, its what people use when attempting to downplay a certain character.

But on topic. I'm undecided, very little info on Sajin.

[AizenvsUrahara]

In fairness people often use the term 'plotkai' when it suits their agenda. Tousen went Bankai against Kenpachi and could have essentially from that moment on one shot Kenpachi by simply slicing off his head yet he didn't and as a result lost yet no one sees that victory from Kenpachi as plotkai...ok. But when its Rukia now who defeats AA because he essentially did the same thing as Tousen in becoming complacent, everyone sees that victory as plotkai even though the end result was the same. O_o And i don't even really like Rukia but thats why the term 'plotkai' is bullshit, its what people use when attempting to downplay a certain character.

But on topic. I'm undecided, very little info on Sajin.
the different between Zaraki`s and rukia`s pis is that tousen took multiple captain level opponent down whit his bankai and rukia just pulled a new attack wright out of her as.yet tousen can`t beat a captain who does`t have any skills accept raw power and sword skills and lost to him while he lost 5 of his senses
zaraki>tousen , Tousen >multiple captains if that aint pis :suspicious:

[justin43]

B)it would have if zammori had brains

C)that not the same you are implying that i said that every captain could take any espada down.Soi Fon can win against noitora since her shikai is haxxed as hell and since noitora would be be boosting about that he has the strongest hierro and that she can`t cut him this fight would last that long since unlike yoruichi he has`t have much speed.i don`know what if she can win against barragan ,she probably can`t but i do agree that you need the correct power ,speed and skill to win a fight but it does`t apply to you if your shikai is haxxed but koma is another story he never lost to zaraki and he did`t need to use his bankai to beat that fraccion .he just wanted to end the fight quickly, show po that neither of them was a big man despite their huge physics and restore the damage to the f.k town and he did`t wanted to waist his strength since he probable would fight a ex-captain or a espada .for once a captain put his pride a side and did the smart thing unlike the others he saw the big picture and that was to protect the f.k town unlike soi fon who decided to play around just to see the strength of a arrancar`s resurrection

B. Paragon explained why Zaraki's fights are not plotkai. Tousen was just too prideful to win. He wanted to make Zaraki feel fear, which is why he lost in the end for trying to play around too much. This same goes for the Byakuya vs. Zommari match. Zommari wasn't stupid, but he was too prideful.

C. I doubt if her tiny shikai blade will be able to pierce Noitora's hierro. Go back a step. 6 large scythes versus one needle that probably won't pierce his hierro. Yeah, Soi Fon can so beat Noitora.:suspicious: I understand what you are saying that Komamura wanted to use bankai, but until we see it go against someone with power and win there will be no basis for Komamura winning against Noitora.

[Rosh]

i reckon sajin would lose... simply based on that kenpachi didnt seem all that worried when sajin komamura realesed his bankai, were as on the other hand when noitra released his sword kenpachi almost died and it forced him to use full power. what im saying is kenpachi didnt see sajin komamura as a threat thats why he was willing to fight both him and tousen along with there VC's. just my opinion!! peace

[GOWSRB]

Kenpachi wasn't intimidated by Nnoitora when he released either. He didn't get "serious" until he was so badly cut up that he realized if he didn't do something he would bleed to death. Kenpachi has yet to show fear of any opponent he is about to face. The closest form of respect that he has shown to any captain is being forced into kendo training on occasion by Yamamoto.

[Rosh]

true but he felt noitra a threat but not sajin komamura.. so im assuming noitra is stonger than komamura for that reason

[GOWSRB]

true but he felt noitra a threat but not sajin komamura.. so im assuming noitra is stonger than komamura for that reason

Your assuming he didn't feel threatened by Komamura even though there is no evidence that they even really had a chance to fight before Komamura took off to go see what was happening? This does not automatically suggest that Nnoitora is any stronger than Komamura.

[Anomandaris]

I do not see how I can make any kind of call on this fight when we have yet to see Komamura take on a seriously strong opponent. That means I can't claim Komamura would win, but with that kind of lack of information, I can't just assume that Nnoitra wins by default.

Kenpachi vs. Nnoitra is not a particularly useful fight to base anything either imo, since Kenpachi didn't seem bothered by Nnoitra's power early on either, and Komamura vs. Kenpachi didn't last long enough to draw anything meaningful from.

@Justin43: We don't actually know whether Soi Fon's shikai actually has to pierce an Espada's hierro to take effect, do we? I'm not quite sure you and AvsU were going with that though... incidentally, imo Tousen lost to Zaraki because he was proud, arrogant and made a colossal error (trying to make Zaraki feel afraid.) The same can be said for Zommari, his error was allowing Byakuya time to analyse his technique, while feeling secure in the mistaken belief that Byakuya couldn't take him down. Plot driven fights or not, they are imo a result of the personalities of the characters involved. My only comment would be I don't see how you can justify what is imo essentially claiming Nnotria wins by default due to lack of information. Lack of proof of existence is not proof of lack of existence.

[ichigozero]

considering what we know of komamura's bankai and nnoitra's release, i'd choose komamura. but its a close call, i'd have to say...

[justin43]

I do not see how I can make any kind of call on this fight when we have yet to see Komamura take on a seriously strong opponent. That means I can't claim Komamura would win, but with that kind of lack of information, I can't just assume that Nnoitra wins by default.

Kenpachi vs. Nnoitra is not a particularly useful fight to base anything either imo, since Kenpachi didn't seem bothered by Nnoitra's power early on either, and Komamura vs. Kenpachi didn't last long enough to draw anything meaningful from.

@Justin43: We don't actually know whether Soi Fon's shikai actually has to pierce an Espada's hierro to take effect, do we? I'm not quite sure you and AvsU were going with that though... incidentally, imo Tousen lost to Zaraki because he was proud, arrogant and made a colossal error (trying to make Zaraki feel afraid.) The same can be said for Zommari, his error was allowing Byakuya time to analyse his technique, while feeling secure in the mistaken belief that Byakuya couldn't take him down. Plot driven fights or not, they are imo a result of the personalities of the characters involved. My only comment would be I don't see how you can justify what is imo essentially claiming Nnotria wins by default due to lack of information. Lack of proof of existence is not proof of lack of existence.

@Bold
Noitora wins because he has better feats than Komamura right now. If their feats were closer in value, then yes, I would be neutral, but Noitora's feats are clearly better than Komamura's at the moment.

@Rest of post
I mention Soi Fon so that AizenvsUrahara will be persuade not to think that any captain will automatically win against any espada, which relates to this thread since this is a captain going against an espada.

[Anomandaris]

@Bold
Noitora wins because he has better feats than Komamura right now. If their feats were closer in value, then yes, I would be neutral, but Noitora's feats are clearly better than Komamura's at the moment.I'll repeat what I said before. Lack of proof of existence is not proof of lack of existence. Komamura has not yet been allowed to have a proper fight against an enemy of sufficient strength for him to display comparable feats. If we'd seen him fight Zaraki either to a conclusion or for any reasonable length of time, or if we'd seen him fight another opponent of serious power, and we still hadn't seen anything, then I believe your comment would be justified. Imo what you're saying is a bit akin to claiming Hitsygaya could beat Ukitake because Ukitake hasn't shown feats of the same class...

@Rest of post
I mention Soi Fon so that AizenvsUrahara will be persuade not to think that any captain will automatically win against any espada, which relates to this thread since this is a captain going against an espada. Ah, right. I don't think much strength can be inferred from whether other captains have won or lost. Not when the matchup is against an Espada, anyway.

[justin43]

I'll repeat what I said before. Lack of proof of existence is not proof of lack of existence. Komamura has not yet been allowed to have a proper fight against an enemy of sufficient strength for him to display comparable feats. If we'd seen him fight Zaraki either to a conclusion or for any reasonable length of time, or if we'd seen him fight another opponent of serious power, and we still hadn't seen anything, then I believe your comment would be justified. Imo what you're saying is a bit akin to claiming Hitsygaya could beat Ukitake because Ukitake hasn't shown feats of the same class...

Ah, right. I don't think much strength can be inferred from whether other captains have won or lost. Not when the matchup is against an Espada, anyway.

To get to the point, this all started when I said a long time if I was forced to choose now, I would go with Noitora since his feats are better now. The maker of this thread asked for a winner and I choose Noitora off of him having the best feats at the time of the thread. People argued why Komamura should win and I responded with the appropriate evidence that suggest the contrary. I perfectly understand people being neutral. What I don't understand is why people are choosing Komamura based on the size of his bankai?

As for the Ukitake comment, the manga backs him up as being stronger from a credible source(Yamamoto). Komamura doesn't have any such source indicating his supposed power to defeat Noitora to my knowledge. I personally think there is enough evidence to call this matchup based on what the manga has shown if I was forced to choose now.

For the record, are you neutral?

[Anomandaris]

#1 To get to the point, this all started when I said a long time if I was forced to choose now, I would go with Noitora since his feats are better now. The maker of this thread asked for a winner and I choose Noitora off of him having the best feats at the time of the thread.#2 People argued why Komamura should win and I responded with the appropriate evidence that suggest the contrary. I perfectly understand people being neutral. #3 What I don't understand is why people are choosing Komamura based on the size of his bankai?
#1: Okay, thanks a lot for filling me in on the background of what's going on here. I understand where you're coming from now.
#2: Fair enough, that is the point of thsi thread.
#3: Just so you know, I don't have a clue why they are claiming that - I honestly have no idea how they can justify that so presumably they aren't bothering?

As for the Ukitake comment, the manga backs him up as being stronger from a credible source(Yamamoto). Komamura doesn't have any such source indicating his supposed power to defeat Noitora to my knowledge. I personally think there is enough evidence to call this matchup based on what the manga has shown if I was forced to choose now.Well, all we are really going on is that Ukitake and Shunsui were prepared to stand against him, and comments here and there. Technically almost all of it is either inconclusive or circumstantial, AFAIK. However, I agree that is quite a bit more than we have on Komamura, that's why I said it was "a bit akin," rather than identical.

For the record, are you neutral?Yes. Definitely. There are two reasons why I started out with examining one of your posts, firstly because I didn't know that you were coming form the view that if you were forced to make a call on this fight you would pick Nnoitra and secondly because I didn't see any content (other than your post that I chose to comment on) in the previous page or so (probably should have gone back to the start of the thread but I didn't have time at that point) that hadn't already been refuted and wasn't just drivel.

[justin43]

#1: Okay, thanks a lot for filling me in on the background of what's going on here. I understand where you're coming from now.
#2: Fair enough, that is the point of thsi thread.
#3: Just so you know, I don't have a clue why they are claiming that - I honestly have no idea how they can justify that so presumably they aren't bothering?

Glad you see the point of my posts.:amused:

Well, all we are really going on is that Ukitake and Shunsui were prepared to stand against him, and comments here and there. Technically almost all of it is either inconclusive or circumstantial, AFAIK. However, I agree that is quite a bit more than we have on Komamura, that's why I said it was "a bit akin," rather than identical.

Understood.

Yes. Definitely. There are two reasons why I started out with examining one of your posts, firstly because I didn't know that you were coming form the view that if you were forced to make a call on this fight you would pick Nnoitra and secondly because I didn't see any content (other than your post that I chose to comment on) in the previous page or so (probably should have gone back to the start of the thread but I didn't have time at that point) that hadn't already been refuted and wasn't just drivel.

No problem. Thanks for explaining.:cool:



Responses in bold.

[AizenvsUrahara]

@Bold
Noitora wins because he has better feats than Komamura right now. If their feats were closer in value, then yes, I would be neutral, but Noitora's feats are clearly better than Komamura's at the moment.

@Rest of post
I mention Soi Fon so that AizenvsUrahara will be persuade not to think that any captain will automatically win against any espada, which relates to this thread since this is a captain going against an espada.
i know that being a captain does`t mean that you will automatically win against a espada.But people seem to underestimated koma saying that he will lose cus he went bankai on po or that he will lose just cuz he lost against zaraki whit eye patch on imo it really stupid to say that he lost since they never finish it and he did come out that fight unharmed so you can really count that as feats . don`t get me wrong but i do understand why you say that koma will lose if we go by feats and i do agre whit you whit that but all i`m saying is you can count zaraki`s fight whit him as a feat since he did`t finish it and he did came unharmed out that fight

[justin43]

i know that being a captain does`t mean that you will automatically win against a espada.But people seem to underestimated koma saying that he will lose cus he went bankai on po or that he will lose just cuz he lost against zaraki whit eye patch on imo it really stupid to say that he lost since they never finish it and he did come out that fight unharmed so you can really count that as feats . don`t get me wrong but i do understand why you say that koma will lose if we go by feats and i do agre whit you whit that but all i`m saying is you can count zaraki`s fight whit him as a feat since he did`t finish it and he did came unharmed out that fight

That is the only part I disagree with, but I get your point that the fight didn't finish. I disagree because this feat is very similar to the Yamamoto one regarding Shunshi and Ukitake. I have to go, so I will explain more later on.

[Anomandaris]

I know that being a captain doesn't mean that you will automatically win against an Espada. But people seem to underestimated Komamura saying that he will lose because he went bankai on po or that he will lose just because he lost against Zaraki with eye patch on imo it's really stupid to say that he lost since they never finished it and he did come out that fight unharmed so you can really count that as feats. Don't get me wrong but I do understand why you say that Komamura will lose if we go by feats and I do agree with you with that but all I'm saying is you can count Zaraki's fight with him as a feat since he didn't finish it and he did came unharmed out that fight

I agree, except that imo counting the fight between Komamura and Zaraki that never really went anyway as a feat on anyone's part because they came out unscathed is fairly weak compared to Zaraki. True, we can say Komamura isn't weaksauce based on it, but that's all we can say based on it imo. I'm not saying he'd lose, just that that isn't much of a 'feat,' though it is my belief that the reason he appears lacking in feats is due to lack of opportunity to fight a high class opponent thus far. However I totally agree that claims that that fight was a loss for Komamura or claims that he would lose because he used bankai on Po are unjustifiable BS.

[Darkmaterials]

a)noitora might have better feats but cuz he has better feat he beats koma by your logic Noitora >> Unohana since she doest have any feats

Try re-reading my post.

I said that if you're going to vote now you should vote for the one with better feats...


B)you can`t compair zaraki to anyone since he has plotkai on his side or all his opponents have CIS/PIS

I was refering to somone elses post about the Zaraki vs Komamura fight....


C)A>B>C logic does`t apply to bleach

It frequently does...

Anyway, I'm not saying "Nnoitra > patchless Zaraki therefore Nnoitra > Komamura", I'm saying "Nnoitra > patchless Zaraki, therefore his best feat is better than Komamura's".

[Anomandaris]

@Darkmaterials: Bleach Math (i.e. A>B>C) is completely broken, especially where Kenpachi is concerned, so I wouldn't go there. No other comments except to say that it's not like you must vote now based on feats displayed to date... as I have said to others lack of evidence of existence is not evidence of lack of existence and as such I remain neutral because I cannot justify voting for Nnoitra simply because 'he has' better feats' when we've seen more of him fighting at a certain level than we have of Komamura. Obviously justifying a vote for Komamura is imo impossible at this point however.

[Darkmaterials]

Again, I said "if you're going to vote now".

Here's an example of abc logic that does work:

Nnoitra > Chad.
Ulqiorra > Nnoitra.
Ulquiorra > Chad.

It doesn't always work (e.g. comparing Zaraki or Ichigo), but it does in this case.

[Anomandaris]

Oh, I never said it's impossible to find an example that works, just you cannot use it as any kind of 'rule' since many key instances fail. And comparing characters who are essentially in a different power class to each other doesn't actually achieve anything using it, either. And btw I do question the accuracy of Nnoitra > patched Zaraki since clearly released Nnoitra > patched Zaraki but IIRC things were not quite so clear cut once Zaraki was warmed up, just before Nnotria ripped his eyepatch off.

As for voting now, I still feel so-called 'feats' are insufficient to judge by when one character has had more opportunity than another, hence my neutrality.

[Darkmaterials]

Oh, I never said it's impossible to find an example that works, just you cannot use it as any kind of 'rule' since many key instances fail. And comparing characters who are essentially in a different power class to each other doesn't actually achieve anything using it, either. And btw I do question the accuracy of Nnoitra > patched Zaraki since clearly released Nnoitra > patched Zaraki but IIRC things were not quite so clear cut once Zaraki was warmed up, just before Nnotria ripped his eyepatch off.

Released Nnoitra is better than unpatched Zaraki, otherwise Zaraki wouldn't have used kendo.

And you called abc logic completely broken, I showed you it's not.
I agree that it shouldn't be used as the basis of every matchup arguement, but why write it off completely if it can work fine in some situations?


As for voting now, I still feel so-called 'feats' are insufficient to judge by when one character has had more opportunity than another, hence my neutrality.

I'm not questioning anyone being neutral.

I'm saying that if you had to pick you'd go for the one with better feats.

[Anomandaris]

Wrong, I called Bleach Math completely broken, and Bleach Math is what happens when you apply ABC logic generally rather than only in the few specific instances where it works and is useful. After all a system is broken (as a system, not as an idea or a tool for specific use only) if it's rules only apply some of the time.

As for Zaraki, how do you differentiate between patchless Zaraki and patchless Zaraki using kendo? It's technically the exact same guy and same reiatsu, all that's different is that Ken-chan is using his head for once in his life, and is striking more effectively because he's using basic Kendo techniques gripping the sword with both hands instead of one. Saying Released Nnoitra > Patchless one-handed Zaraki is not technically accurate since he could still use his hand for things other than gripping the sword without using kendo. I wasn't actually meaning to criticise you though, I just wanted you to be more specific with your declarations since there are so many layers involved with Zaraki vs. Nnoitra.

As for if I had to vote, if I had to pick, I wouldn't necessarily pick the one with the better feats since I feel that feats with out equal opportunity completely fails as justification for a vote, and thus would choose based on something else. I have no problem with other people choosing to accept feats as valid evidence if they were forced to vote right now, but I won't.

[Darkmaterials]

Wrong, I called Bleach Math completely broken, and Bleach Math is what happens when you apply ABC logic generally rather than only in the few specific instances where it works and is useful. After all a system is broken (as a system, not as an idea or a tool for specific use only) if it's rules only apply some of the time.

Oh, so you're accepting that a>b>c logic can work with bleach?
Which is what i said in the first place.


As for Zaraki, how do you differentiate between patchless Zaraki and patchless Zaraki using kendo? It's technically the exact same guy and same reiatsu, all that's different is that Ken-chan is using his head for once in his life, and is striking more effectively because he's using basic Kendo techniques gripping the sword with both hands instead of one. Saying Released Nnoitra > Patchless one-handed Zaraki is not technically accurate since he could still use his hand for things other than gripping the sword without using kendo. I wasn't actually meaning to criticise you though, I just wanted you to be more specific with your declarations since there are so many layers involved with Zaraki vs. Nnoitra.

Kendo is a fighting style that, for whatever reason, gives Zaraki a significant boost.
As such there is a clear difference between Zaraki using kendo and Zaraki fighting normally.
It's pretty much Zaraki's equivelant of a bankai.


As for if I had to vote, if I had to pick, I wouldn't necessarily pick the one with the better feats since I feel that feats with out equal opportunity completely fails as justification for a vote, and thus would choose based on something else. I have no problem with other people choosing to accept feats as valid evidence if they were forced to vote right now, but I won't.

What else is there to go on other than feats?

[Anomandaris]

Oh, so you're accepting that a>b>c logic can work with bleach?
Which is what i said in the first place.No. As a system it fails when applied to Bleach. However it holds in occasional and generally useless instances.

Kendo is a fighting style that, for whatever reason, gives Zaraki a significant boost.
As such there is a clear difference between Zaraki using kendo and Zaraki fighting normally.
It's pretty much Zaraki's equivelant of a bankai.It gives him a 'boost' because he's swinging with technique and with significantly more force. I highly doubt it increases his reiatsu in the order of five to ten times, and we certainly cannot prove empirically that it does anything of the sort. In fact logic suggests it does nothing whatsoever to his actual reiatsu. So it's pretty much not his equivalent of bankai at all. It does imply however that his opponent was powerful enough to make him actually consider surviving and/or winning as some kind of short term goal (N.B. his reasoning is probably that he needs to survive to have more 'fun,' though) rather than merely having fun (or dying instead, in this case.)

What else is there to go on other than feats?When they have had unequal opportunity to display feats, we can pretty much go on every other piece of circumstantial evidence available, of which there are a few around. However it is my belief that currently there is nothing to truly push this one way or the other.

[punni]

Oh, so you're accepting that a>b>c logic can work with bleach?
Which is what i said in the first place.


Sorry to interrupt and please take no offense, but thats plain stupid. Your example is a bad one on top of that.

Ulq > Chad because Ulq is possibly VL and Chad merely Bankai-level, i.e. barely Captain-level. Not because Nnoi > Chad and Ulq > Nnoi, while the latter is unproven and purely based on Espada ranking albeit it true with a certainty of 100%.

saying a>b>c logic can work in bleach is stupid because you always find a trivial example.

[Darkmaterials]

No. As a system it fails when applied to Bleach. However it holds in occasional and generally useless instances.

By not accepting that abc logic can work you're saying it doesn't.
Meaning that there would have to be no instances where it works...


It gives him a 'boost' because he's swinging with technique and with significantly more force. I highly doubt it increases his reiatsu in the order of five to ten times, and we certainly cannot prove empirically that it does anything of the sort. In fact logic suggests it does nothing whatsoever to his actual reiatsu. So it's pretty much not his equivalent of bankai at all. It does imply however that his opponent was powerful enough to make him actually consider surviving and/or winning as some kind of short term goal (N.B. his reasoning is probably that he needs to survive to have more 'fun,' though) rather than merely having fun (or dying instead, in this case.)

He went from being beaten back by Nnoitra to ending the fight in one blow when he used kendo.
I said it was his equivelant of bankai in the sense that it gave him a large power boost, which it does.


When they have had unequal opportunity to display feats, we can pretty much go on every other piece of circumstantial evidence available, of which there are a few around. However it is my belief that currently there is nothing to truly push this one way or the other.

I'm not trying to argue that this pushes it one way or another.

I was originally arguing against people voting for Komamura, seeing as if you had to vote on what we know now Nnoitra has better feats then Komamura.


Ulq > Chad because Ulq is possibly VL and Chad merely Bankai-level, i.e. barely Captain-level. Not because Nnoi > Chad and Ulq > Nnoi, while the latter is unproven and purely based on Espada ranking albeit it true with a certainty of 100%.

We don't have prrof that Ulq is a VL (yet?).
He hasn't fought Chad directly, so how do we know he's stronger without comparing him through another character?


saying a>b>c logic can work in bleach is stupid because you always find a trivial example.

Trivial or not, it can still apply, which is all i was saying.

-------

Geez, all of this over a throw away comment when I hadn't even been using abc logic....

[Vyraeil]

I don't care how many arms you have, if you get stepped on by a man the size of a skyscraper you are going to die.
No we don't know how strong by comparison Komamura's bankai is to Kenpachi's kendo-slash, but it's not unreasonable to assume that something that gigantic is going to fuck shit up when it comes down. And I'm sure I've said this on another Komamura thread, but there is no way you're dodging that sword. Because it's bigger than your mind. No matter who you are.

[Delta]

I don't care how many arms you have, if you get stepped on by a man the size of a skyscraper you are going to die.
No we don't know how strong by comparison Komamura's bankai is to Kenpachi's kendo-slash, but it's not unreasonable to assume that something that gigantic is going to fuck shit up when it comes down. And I'm sure I've said this on another Komamura thread, but there is no way you're dodging that sword. Because it's bigger than your mind. No matter who you are.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/311/10/
Just like something gigantic killed Kenpachi right there? Oh, right - he just cut in half something that's larger than the sword.

[Vyraeil]

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/311/10/
Just like something gigantic killed Kenpachi right there? Oh, right - he just cut in half something that's larger than the sword.

That's a rock. It has no reiatsu. Don't be stupid.
There is no way in all the many fantastic realms of Kenpachi fandom that you could possibly be comparing Komamura's bankai to a fucking rock.

Oh right. You just did.

[Delta]

That's a rock. It has no reiatsu. Don't be stupid.
There is no way in all the many fantastic realms of Kenpachi fandom that you could possibly be comparing Komamura's bankai to a fucking rock.

Oh right. You just did.

You were talking about size, so I provided you with a screen of size. You want size with reiatsu too? Here:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/188/01/

Happy now? I guarantee you he had reiatsu.

[Vyraeil]

You were talking about size, so I provided you with a screen of size. You want size with reiatsu too? Here:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/188/01/

Happy now? I guarantee you he had reiatsu.

It's funny, because I've just had this conversation on a completely different thread, I think it's the Komamura vs Zommari one...

Grand Fisher's reiatsu is pants when compared to Komamura's, its not even a comparison. A captain vs an arrancar? Well, your own link proves how mismatched that is.

So no, I'm not happy now. Grand Fisher might as well not have reiatsu.

[Delta]

It's funny, because I've just had this conversation on a completely different thread, I think it's the Komamura vs Zommari one...

Grand Fisher's reiatsu is pants when compared to Komamura's, its not even a comparison. A captain vs an arrancar? Well, your own link proves how mismatched that is.

So no, I'm not happy now. Grand Fisher might as well not have reiatsu.

It's all relative. Isshin said that Captains' reiatsu would make their Zanpaktou sky-scraper sized. Grand Fisher's Zanpaktou is sky-scraper sized. Therefore, Grand Fisher's reiatsu is somewhat comparable to that of a Captain (though with the information we have we can't tell which one exactly). We have no proof that Isshin is super-high Captain-level, therefore we can assume that their reiatsu is not worlds apart. Who won that match up? The small guy (Isshin). Therefore, I suggest that, unless you can actually bring up a good argument in regards to this issue, you stop dwelling on the size of Kommamura's Bankai. After all, Kenpachi got hit with that same sword (no dodging/blocking at all) and he was completely fine. Nnoitora is even harder than Kenpachi. Therefore, Nnoitora's going to be perfectly fine after getting hit with the sword.

[Rosh]

Komamura takes this, I can see Noitra giving him a good fight but he wont be able to win if he goes bankai.

[LazyBum]

Aizen disposed of Hits in bankai just as easy as Isshin disposed of Grandfisher so if grandfisher was captain level its not to far fetched because for all we know Isshin could be just as strong as Aizen

edit: dont know why i got the neg rep

[skycrapper]

Anyone can confirm whether the bankai is fast or slow? To me, it could be fast, since it imitates Kommamura's movement; well it's either his movement got slowed down due to the bankai, or the bankai is fast imitating Komamuras movement anyway . . .

No evidence portrayed (yet), but if it's fast . . . Nnoitra is SO overkilled.

[Rosh]

^Im assuming his bankai moves at the same speed as him

[TW501]

I think that Nnoitra is probably more powerful overall, but given the sheer size and raw strength of Komamura's bankai, I'm leaning toward him.

[Vyraeil]

It's all relative. Isshin said that Captains' reiatsu would make their Zanpaktou sky-scraper sized. Grand Fisher's Zanpaktou is sky-scraper sized. Therefore, Grand Fisher's reiatsu is somewhat comparable to that of a Captain (though with the information we have we can't tell which one exactly). We have no proof that Isshin is super-high Captain-level, therefore we can assume that their reiatsu is not worlds apart. Who won that match up? The small guy (Isshin). Therefore, I suggest that, unless you can actually bring up a good argument in regards to this issue, you stop dwelling on the size of Kommamura's Bankai. After all, Kenpachi got hit with that same sword (no dodging/blocking at all) and he was completely fine. Nnoitora is even harder than Kenpachi. Therefore, Nnoitora's going to be perfectly fine after getting hit with the sword.

1.) NO. Your heresy is not appreciated.

2.) Because cutting him in half with one slash is absolutely no indication of a humongous power gap, is it? Yes it fucking is.

3.) Where? You might be right, but I haven't seen....

[pumpkin13]

On top of that:

-GF's zan was not sky scraper sized, it was the size of a bus maybe. BIG DIFFERENCE.

-The Captain is also differentiated because of their skill to suppress and control their reiatsu to make their zans so much smaller. GF didn't display this.

-The fact that Isshin bisected a fifty foot giant in one go is decent enough. Then there's the fact that he didn't move from where he was standing. His zan is a wakizashi length blade. Wakizashi... fifty foot giant... do the math. Then there's the fact that he did it upon the drawing of his blade in one smooth movement. This is signature of Iaijutsu. If Kendo is a intermediate to advanced sword art then Iaijutsu is comparable. On top of that he defeated an arrancar, in release, unreleased. So yeah, big power gap.

-As for Zaraki getting hit by the same sword. Yeah. He did. Was it the same amount of power? NO. Bankai multiplies one's power by a factor of ten. Zaraki "got hit by" (I say that because you never see him get hit, he could easily have sidestepped to the left a foot and moved back in the smoke so that it looks as if he never moved) Komamura's shikai, not his bankai. Then koma released his bankai, but he never got to use it on Zaraki.

-What's more Zaraki only gets excited when he senses an opponent he considors worthy of himself, or even more powerful. Well he looks pretty excited http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/149/02/ and http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/148/17/

-What's more Koma's bare handed strength isn't to be frowned upon. He did after all block an attack from Zaraki without even unseathing his zan.

EDIT: Actually no he doesn't even get hit by the same sword. The shikai one appears smaller.
Shikai:http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/139/12/
Bankai:http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/149/02/

Look at the width/depth of each blade. The shikai one is roughly the length from Zaraki's foot to his waist. The bankai one, if placed in the same position, would be at least twice Zaraki's hieght, if not 3 times.

[Wras]

Nnoitra employs Ichigo's Jenga method against Komamura's bankai :wacko:

Seriously, I give it to Komamura if he can keep the little dude pinned down long enough. For a captain, someone knowledgeable, I think he knows his shit when dealing with small/fast enemies, he'll probably have something up his sleeve to throw Nnoit off. Of course I don't think it's a landslide, and it would be pretty close. shit, Nnoitra might even just cut him up before he can do anything, but even though there's so little to base off, I give it to Koma.

[jio_freed]

I have to go with Nnoitra, as much as i like Komamura. First for the obvious reason, that kenpachi owned Koma AND Tosen together, and yet kenpachi only barely won against Nnoitra.
But also, Nnoitra's blades are extremely heavy. Im sure Koma could own him in his unreleased state, but once he gets 4 of those things, i'm pretty sure Nnoitra would be able to block the giant sword of Koma's bankai. Plus, he's probably a bit faster.

[pumpkin13]

Noitra hasn't been shown to use sonido, Koma has appeared to use shunpo (when appearing in front of aizen, just before he gets kuorhitsugi'd. So as far as i'm concerned Koma is faster. Zaraki never owned Koma. They never finished their fight, undisclosed outcome. We have no idea how Zaraki would have fared against Koma's bankai. The size and weight of blades really has nothing to do with it at all. Look at the size of zangetsu, or Bankai Houzikimaru.

[darkp]

In fairness people often use the term 'plotkai' when it suits their agenda. Tousen went Bankai against Kenpachi and could have essentially from that moment on one shot Kenpachi by simply slicing off his head yet he didn't and as a result lost yet no one sees that victory from Kenpachi as plotkai...ok. But when its Rukia now who defeats AA because he essentially did the same thing as Tousen in becoming complacent, everyone sees that victory as plotkai even though the end result was the same. O_o And i don't even really like Rukia but thats why the term 'plotkai' is bullshit, its what people use when attempting to downplay a certain character.

But on topic. I'm undecided, very little info on Sajin.

Offtopic

Dude KT tried to explain as clear as posible how the kenpachi win . He was dodging tousen atack even without senses.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/147/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/147/12/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/147/13/

Even in real world people could react against atacks even they are not using hearing or sight . I am not expert about that but I think it is so called blind fighting style which needs a lot of close combat experience to predict opponent moves at a part of martial art . The name would be different , ı am not sure.

And there is not any proof that tousen could finish him with a single slash to the Head .Kenpachi could react ,dodge and could take less dmg from that atack again like what he had done to previous tousen atacks . And you are forgetting kenpachi has a armor and take a clear shot from full zangetsu and prolly some hichigo power up'd shikai ichigo to the forehead and did not die .

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/112/12/

And about this Rukia and 9th espada fight , There were difference between power gap. It was a VC level or lower against Espada . not like kenpachi vs tousen.They are almost at same level medium tier captain.

On topic I agree with u . There is not too much reference about Sajin and his fighting abilities .

[Delta]

1.) NO. Your heresy is not appreciated.

2.) Because cutting him in half with one slash is absolutely no indication of a humongous power gap, is it? Yes it fucking is.

3.) Where? You might be right, but I haven't seen....
1. What?
2. Have you ever considered that Isshin could just have a lot more skill? Besides, I said "not world's apart" as in not like Aizen v. Ichigo. I never said there is no difference. Besides, you're just helping prove my point, the smaller guy won =/
3. Right before Kenpachi owned Tousen.
On top of that:

-GF's zan was not sky scraper sized, it was the size of a bus maybe. BIG DIFFERENCE.

-The Captain is also differentiated because of their skill to suppress and control their reiatsu to make their zans so much smaller. GF didn't display this.

-The fact that Isshin bisected a fifty foot giant in one go is decent enough. Then there's the fact that he didn't move from where he was standing. His zan is a wakizashi length blade. Wakizashi... fifty foot giant... do the math. Then there's the fact that he did it upon the drawing of his blade in one smooth movement. This is signature of Iaijutsu. If Kendo is a intermediate to advanced sword art then Iaijutsu is comparable. On top of that he defeated an arrancar, in release, unreleased. So yeah, big power gap.

-As for Zaraki getting hit by the same sword. Yeah. He did. Was it the same amount of power? NO. Bankai multiplies one's power by a factor of ten. Zaraki "got hit by" (I say that because you never see him get hit, he could easily have sidestepped to the left a foot and moved back in the smoke so that it looks as if he never moved) Komamura's shikai, not his bankai. Then koma released his bankai, but he never got to use it on Zaraki.

-What's more Zaraki only gets excited when he senses an opponent he considors worthy of himself, or even more powerful. Well he looks pretty excited http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/149/02/ and http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/148/17/

-What's more Koma's bare handed strength isn't to be frowned upon. He did after all block an attack from Zaraki without even unseathing his zan.

EDIT: Actually no he doesn't even get hit by the same sword. The shikai one appears smaller.
Shikai:http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/139/12/
Bankai:http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/149/02/

Look at the width/depth of each blade. The shikai one is roughly the length from Zaraki's foot to his waist. The bankai one, if placed in the same position, would be at least twice Zaraki's hieght, if not 3 times.
1. I'd have to disagree. If you look at the image I posted on the previous page you'll see that the sword is almost exactly the size of the skyscraper.
2. I never said he had. That wasn't the point of my post at all.
3. Big power gap? Sounds like a big skill gap to me. Not much to indicate that their reiatsu was worlds apart.
4. Oh yes, because it's in Kenpachi's character to make it look like he actually got hit but not actually being hit. Come on, you know perfectly well that he didn't sidestep it, and if you look at the pictures you'll see that even his sword is in the exact same position. Besides, Komamura confirmed that he had made a hit. The amount of power Kenpachi had was also not his all (eye patch still on) and he didn't even block the sword. It did no damage at all.
5. Kenpachi gets excited when he thinks he can get a good fight. Now, considering how he still had his eye patch on I wouldn't say that Kenpachi considered Komamura to be near or above himself.
6. It's not but he blocked a slash by Kenpachi that was meant to put down a 7/8s dead Tousen. If you look you'll see that he wasn't swinging hard at all. Now, Kenpachi's strength on the other hand is impressive - he blocked both Tousen's and Komamura's attacks (both of them still fresh) while holding his sword with one hand.
7. I'll give you that one, I hadn't noticed the difference before. Though, as you said in your next post, their blade's size and weight has nothing to do with any of it (which is exactly what I was attempting to prove to the other guy; that's why I brought up the Isshin vs. GF battle, the guy with the huge sword got owned).
Noitra hasn't been shown to use sonido, Koma has appeared to use shunpo (when appearing in front of aizen, just before he gets kuorhitsugi'd. So as far as i'm concerned Koma is faster. Zaraki never owned Koma. They never finished their fight, undisclosed outcome. We have no idea how Zaraki would have fared against Koma's bankai. The size and weight of blades really has nothing to do with it at all. Look at the size of zangetsu, or Bankai Houzikimaru.
Zaraki was immensely more powerful than Komamura when Komamura was in Shikai. Komamura goes Bankai and he might be a bit weaker, about the same, or a little stronger than Kenpachi (remember that his shikai hit did absolutely nothing to Kenpachi) - and that's when Kenpachi takes off his eye patch and completely owns him.

Pretty much all I'm trying to prove here is that the size/weight of Komamura's sword will have no effect on this battle, I really couldn't care less who wins this fight.

[pumpkin13]

1. It's called perspective, GF and his sword are closer to the "camera lense" as it were, than the block of flats/offices, which are in the background.
PLUS This is roughly the same hieght as the one in the pic from the looks of it.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1374/1409434180_8e0907df98.jpg
(The manga offices/flats had eleven layers of windows...)

THIS is a skyscraper: http://systemsealants.com/dloads/Skyscraper.Lovely.jpg
slightly bigger isn't it. Quite a few more than eleven.

2.f/e

3. Like I said, it is possible that their reiatsu wasn't worlds apart, as Isshin hadn't fully regained his shinigami powers. But look at all the cases of people being one-shotted in Bleach and the general norm that the person one-shotting is substantially more powerful than the victim. Byakuya vs. Ichigo (senka), Aizen vs Hitsuguya, Aizen vs Koma, Ichigo vs. the 3 VCs, Allon vs Matsumoto, and of course Hitsuguya vs. Halibel, the only other named character in bleach to get bisected clean in half.

4. Ok, so Kenpachi got hit by Koma's shikai, big wow. I agree, a big sword doesn't nesc. mean big damage. But then, shikai hasn't been stated to increase reiatsu output as bankai does. Shikai releases the sword into it's true form and to use the abilities with the reiatsu that they already have. Then Bankai multiplies that base by roughly five to ten times. If he'd taken koma's bankai face on then yeah, cool, impressive feat, cus that would have ten times Koma's reaitsu put behind the force of the hit as well. Not just his normal reiatsu.

5. Since when did Zaraki ever release his eyepatch at the very beginning of any fight?

6. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/308/10/ Look at his arm position.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/148/13/ Similar position/stance

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/308/11/ What the first one does, and if you continue a second one of similar scale slices clean through Noitra's blade and hierro.

Looks pretty similar style of slash to me.

7. No, but it would make a difference if it had ten times the force of reiatsu behind it.

Aftersection:
Shikai does not multiply ones reiatsu. So Zaraki is more powerful than base koma. But we don't really know how much of a power difference there is between base zaraki and unpatched zaraki. And do you know the reason for Zaraki's eyepatch? Why Kubo gave him it? in terms of Plot mechanics? It's basically his form of release... his bankai if you will. So with both at full power I'd say they'd still be roughly similar in terms of power.

[Delta]

1. It's called perspective, GF and his sword are closer to the "camera lense" as it were, than the block of flats/offices, which are in the background.
PLUS This is roughly the same hieght as the one in the pic from the looks of it.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1374/1409434180_8e0907df98.jpg
(The manga offices/flats had eleven layers of windows...)

THIS is a skyscraper: http://systemsealants.com/dloads/Skyscraper.Lovely.jpg
slightly bigger isn't it. Quite a few more than eleven.

2.f/e

3. Like I said, it is possible that their reiatsu wasn't worlds apart, as Isshin hadn't fully regained his shinigami powers. But look at all the cases of people being one-shotted in Bleach and the general norm that the person one-shotting is substantially more powerful than the victim. Byakuya vs. Ichigo (senka), Aizen vs Hitsuguya, Aizen vs Koma, Ichigo vs. the 3 VCs, Allon vs Matsumoto, and of course Hitsuguya vs. Halibel, the only other named character in bleach to get bisected clean in half.

4. Ok, so Kenpachi got hit by Koma's shikai, big wow. I agree, a big sword doesn't nesc. mean big damage. But then, shikai hasn't been stated to increase reiatsu output as bankai does. Shikai releases the sword into it's true form and to use the abilities with the reiatsu that they already have. Then Bankai multiplies that base by roughly five to ten times. If he'd taken koma's bankai face on then yeah, cool, impressive feat, cus that would have ten times Koma's reaitsu put behind the force of the hit as well. Not just his normal reiatsu.

5. Since when did Zaraki ever release his eyepatch at the very beginning of any fight?

6. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/308/10/ Look at his arm position.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/148/13/ Similar position/stance

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/308/11/ What the first one does, and if you continue a second one of similar scale slices clean through Noitra's blade and hierro.

Looks pretty similar style of slash to me.

7. No, but it would make a difference if it had ten times the force of reiatsu behind it.

Aftersection:
Shikai does not multiply ones reiatsu. So Zaraki is more powerful than base koma. But we don't really know how much of a power difference there is between base zaraki and unpatched zaraki. And do you know the reason for Zaraki's eyepatch? Why Kubo gave him it? in terms of Plot mechanics? It's basically his form of release... his bankai if you will. So with both at full power I'd say they'd still be roughly similar in terms of power.
1. I'd still have to say you're wrong. Don't believe me? Read what Isshin says here: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/187/17/ "Much like what you are doing." That pretty much sums up the fact that he did have a sky-scraper size sword.

3. I'm not disagreeing that their reiatsu weren't different, I'm just saying they weren't hugely different. I just attribute the one-hit KO to Isshin's skill/experience advantage instead.

4. I'd just like to save this for a point I will make later in this post, Kenpachi non-released >>> Komamura shikai.

5. When he fought against Ichigo and Ichigo released as much/more reiatsu than he did? Had the same happened with Komamura then what would stop him from reacting the same way? (And this is after he had already destroyed a Captain, so he was already more injured than when Ichigo released a bunch of reiatsu).

6. As we know from Kenpachi's fight with Ichigo he is more than capable of putting more/less strength into a hit even if the position is the same (he was hitting Ichigo normally and everything was fine, he put more strength into a different one and went right through Zangetsu).

7. Which could be countered by using something other than your head to block, no? A sword, for example.

8. Kenpachi regular >>> Komamura Shikai. (see 4)
Kenpachi eye patch-less >>> Komamura Bankai if Kenpachi's eye patch is the equivalent of his bankai, as you have stated.

[pumpkin13]

6. You've just refuted your own previous point. "If you look you'll see he wasn't swiniging hard at all." Well if he can form indentical strokes of differing power how can you tell that he isn't swinging hard at all?

Ultimately I will conclude that yeah, Kenpachi>>>Koma. But considoring Kenpachi>>>>>>>>>Noitra, it still leaves room for Koma to be>>>than Noitra himself.

[Delta]

6. You've just refuted your own previous point. "If you look you'll see he wasn't swiniging hard at all." Well if he can form indentical strokes of differing power how can you tell that he isn't swinging hard at all?

Ultimately I will conclude that yeah, Kenpachi>>>Koma. But considoring Kenpachi>>>>>>>>>Noitra, it still leaves room for Koma to be>>>than Noitra himself.

I can tell by 2 things:
1. He was swinging at someone who was almost dead.

2. If he had been swinging hard (the way he did at Nnoi) it would have most likely killed Komamura had he been blocking the way he was (it cut into Nnoi). Instead, it just cut through the little wooden protection Komma has. Steel on steroids >>>>> Wood.

Oh, like I said I really don't care about that and I'm not arguing against it. Komamura could completely annihilate Nnoi for all I care.

[Vyraeil]

1. What?
2. Have you ever considered that Isshin could just have a lot more skill? Besides, I said "not world's apart" as in not like Aizen v. Ichigo. I never said there is no difference. Besides, you're just helping prove my point, the smaller guy won =/
3. Right before Kenpachi owned Tousen.

1. Grand Fisher is of captain level? Freaking heresy, I will not have any of it.

2. A lot more skill does not mean a fucking one hit death. It means an advantage, or a clarification for a huge power-boost, it does not mean insta-death. And for the record, yes, they are worlds apart. Many worlds.
FYI, the small guy won because the small guy was a captain and the big guy was a douche. A weak douche who was up himself and didn't understand shit. Komamura is not weak. Komamura is not douche. Grand Fisher vs Isshin is a terrible example of Komamura vs Nnoitra.

3. That was his shikai. Unless I've got the wrong scene...

[Gear4]

I highly doubt Nnoitra will just stand there and let Komamura's bankai hit him straight head on. Even if it does, I don't think it'll do much damage to the Espada with the strongest Hierro. Nnoitra takes this.

[Soujirou]

Way to go pumpkin13.

hahaha Delta everybody knows that Kenpachi LOVES to take his eye-patch off and does that on the first sign of a threat, that argument everybody does about him not taking his eye-patch when he saw Koma's Bankai is very lame, because as a Kenpachi Fan i know that he only takes it off when he is on a clear disadvantage and there is no other way, his biggest pleasure is fighting people who are stronger than him, so why would he spoil a good fight unleashing his full power right from the start? and you got good eyes, judging the force of Kenpachi's swing on static images, and just for the records, he didnt block Zaraki's sword with his head, that would be stupid, he used his steel gauntlet, pay attention to the scene.

what i dont get is why people think that Kenpachi thought of Nnoi as being stronger than Koma, if you look at his reaction to Nnoi's release it was like "cool" and when he saw Koma'a Bankai he was about to cum right on his pants, but no, he was thinking "that guy is as strong as my granny".

and I lol'ed Gear4, first because if Luffy got a Gear Fourth, it would just another ability that would have another, and probably more severe, drawback, not the overpowered thing people think it will be, because that's how OP works, and secondly because you think that Nnoitra, who could hardly keep up with a half dead Ichigo's speed and knows no Sonido, is faster than Komamura, who got a good proficiency at Shunpoo, but do not fell to bad, as lots of people think that way for some reason, maybe they just are too young or just dont pay attention, or lack long term memory.

[pumpkin13]

Gear4's noobishness made me laugh. "strongest hierro"? It's called boasting, it's when one person big's themselves up to makethemselves seem impressive. What with the massive powergap between Ulquiorra and Noitra, there's no way Noitra's hierro would have been stronger than Ulquiorra's. Let alone the fact that we have Halibel, Barrigan and Stark to account for. Noitra also said he was the strongest espada as well didn't he. Yeah, he's #5.

[Cloud Sykes]

reminds me of the Kenpachi free hit against Ulquiorra argument from way back when lol
I second everything pumpkin said

but as for the fight at hand, I think Komamura would win against Nnoitra simply because I suspect Komamura's bankai would overpower Nnoitra with its size (and inherent strength that comes with such size)

i don't know what an unreleased Komamura vs unreleased Nnoitra would be like because for the life of me I cant remember a single intstance where komamura actually fought without bankai for long enough to count as a fight

[skycrapper]

No, I think that's just the case: When Nnoi said he has the strongest hierro, then he IS the one with the strongest hierro . . . same case with when Zomari said he's the fasted Espada. Also, when he said he's the strongest Espada, he IS the one with the strongest physical power . . . that's why he was so pissed off when Nell said that she's stronger than him. But what makes him 5th, is because the overall ratings makes him that. One can't be #1 only because he's strong or only fast, but one must comprise of all stats being higher and more superior than others.

So, YES, Kommamura's behemoth will pwn him. And IF it's evident of the bankai can move as fast as Koma's shunpo, or at least move as fast as Koma (given that the bankai's movement kinda mimics Koma's from time to time), it will BLAST Nnoi to oblivion . . . but I just don't find any.

[pumpkin13]

So... you're saying Noitra is stronger than Ulquiorra...?

Espada 10-5 ALL displayed arrogance as one of their first and foremost traits. So until Zaraki is shown to be able to easily cleave through Espada 3-1's hierro without having any trouble at first like he did against Noitra, then Noitra is lying and bigging himself up.

Zommari MAY indeed have the fastest Sonido... so far visually it does seem incredibly quick, However, whilst he wasn't moving in continuous circles, visually i got the impression Ulquiorra was faster (from the two pages below), and now Halibel on top of that.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/348/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/348/14/

[Brazo Derecho De Gigante]

Do you guys not remember when Kenpachi took down Tousen and Komamura at the same time? I think that it's fairly obvious that Komamura would lose to Nnoitra. Kenpachi beat him at full power, and took down Komamura with his eyepatch still on.

[Delta]

1. Grand Fisher is of captain level? Freaking heresy, I will not have any of it.

2. A lot more skill does not mean a fucking one hit death. It means an advantage, or a clarification for a huge power-boost, it does not mean insta-death. And for the record, yes, they are worlds apart. Many worlds.
FYI, the small guy won because the small guy was a captain and the big guy was a douche. A weak douche who was up himself and didn't understand shit. Komamura is not weak. Komamura is not douche. Grand Fisher vs Isshin is a terrible example of Komamura vs Nnoitra.

3. That was his shikai. Unless I've got the wrong scene...
Read the previous posts before replying. I've already discussed all of this with Pumpkin.
Way to go pumpkin13.

hahaha Delta everybody knows that Kenpachi LOVES to take his eye-patch off and does that on the first sign of a threat, that argument everybody does about him not taking his eye-patch when he saw Koma's Bankai is very lame, because as a Kenpachi Fan i know that he only takes it off when he is on a clear disadvantage and there is no other way, his biggest pleasure is fighting people who are stronger than him, so why would he spoil a good fight unleashing his full power right from the start? and you got good eyes, judging the force of Kenpachi's swing on static images, and just for the records, he didnt block Zaraki's sword with his head, that would be stupid, he used his steel gauntlet, pay attention to the scene.

what i dont get is why people think that Kenpachi thought of Nnoi as being stronger than Koma, if you look at his reaction to Nnoi's release it was like "cool" and when he saw Koma'a Bankai he was about to cum right on his pants, but no, he was thinking "that guy is as strong as my granny".

and I lol'ed Gear4, first because if Luffy got a Gear Fourth, it would just another ability that would have another, and probably more severe, drawback, not the overpowered thing people think it will be, because that's how OP works, and secondly because you think that Nnoitra, who could hardly keep up with a half dead Ichigo's speed and knows no Sonido, is faster than Komamura, who got a good proficiency at Shunpoo, but do not fell to bad, as lots of people think that way for some reason, maybe they just are too young or just dont pay attention, or lack long term memory.
Yeah Kenpachi doesn't release as soon as the fight starts but he's not stupid and he does if he feels/knows that he is at a huge disadvantage. Example? His fight against Ichigo.

How do I judge the force of his swing? (This was already discussed in a previous post btw). By the fact that that same swing cut through Nnoi's hierro but just barely through Kommamura's wood armor. Steel >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wood.

He thought it because when he was fighting Komamura all we saw was Komamura's attacks doing absolutely no damage and him getting thrown around all over the place. Nnoi brought Kenpachi to his limits (relatively speaking).

Come on guys, if you're going to reply do us all a favor and at least read the last couple of pages.


Brazo Derecho De Gigante, he didn't fight him all the way. Komamura ran off before Kenpachi had a chance to lower his height by a couple of feet.

[pumpkin13]

Do you guys not remember when Kenpachi took down Tousen and Komamura at the same time? I think that it's fairly obvious that Komamura would lose to Nnoitra. Kenpachi beat him at full power, and took down Komamura with his eyepatch still on.

Good sir, you do indeed appear to have some rather large unsightly testicles spewing from your mouth.

First of all, Kenpachi beat Noitra with one full powered stroke, using both hands on his sword. Now... IMAGINE IF HE USED TWO HANDS ALL THE TIME, delivering blows like that left right and centre. THAT would be his full full power. And the thing is, simply putting two hands on the blade is hardly extrastrainious, so i'm under the impression he could do that all the time if he wished. And baring in mind he delivered that blow after being hacked up substantially, substantially enough to realise he would be near death if he continued doing what he was doing. So no, NOT at full power.

Secondly... WTF show me the chapter where Zaraki DOWNS Koma. He didn't actually land a hit on Koma AT ALL.

[Levy]

Good sir, you do indeed appear to have some rather large unsightly testicles spewing from your mouth.

First of all, Kenpachi beat Noitra with one full powered stroke, using both hands on his sword. Now... IMAGINE IF HE USED TWO HANDS ALL THE TIME, delivering blows like that left right and centre. THAT would be his full full power. And the thing is, simply putting two hands on the blade is hardly extrastrainious, so i'm under the impression he could do that all the time if he wished. And baring in mind he delivered that blow after being hacked up substantially, substantially enough to realise he would be near death if he continued doing what he was doing. So no, NOT at full power.

Secondly... WTF show me the chapter where Zaraki DOWNS Koma. He didn't actually land a hit on Koma AT ALL.

Iirc he threw Koma judo style and it,s nitpicking but he did land a hit on him when Koma blocked his sword from killing Tousen :P

[pumpkin13]

lol yeah true, but arguably he wasn't attacking Koma, Koma put himself in that position. And I assumed it was meant downed as in defeated.

[Soujirou]

Did you guys just skipped the part where i said Koma blocked the swing with his Steel Gauntlet? The sword pierced the wooden helmet like butter obviously, but koma blocked it before the blade got to his head.

HERE is the map!

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/148/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/148/15/

Take a good look at the first panel on the first page and then the top right one on the second page and prove me that your eyes don't just see what you want to.

And that grapple didn't hurt Koma at all.

Nnoitra was so shitty that people of this forum were trying to downgrade him to #6, if an attack is strong enough to get past his Hierro, he is done for, since he cant even evade attacks.

[Gear4]

Pumpkin13. Most Espada have some kind of speciality they're good at. Yammy: ONLY Espada that changes number when power up. Aaroniero: ONLY Espada with unlimited evolution. Szayel: ONLY Espada that uses science to work to his opponent disadvantage. Zommari: ONLY Espada with Gamelos Sonido. Nnoitra: ONLY Espada with strongest Hierro. Ulquiorra: ONLY Espada with 2 resurreccions. As for Grimmjow: I guess he's the ONLY Espada thats normal lol. But you see what I am saying? They all have their own talents which what makes them unique doesn't mean they're stronger. Heck Zommari have such a hax ability but still weaker than Grimmjow which is why he's ranked lower. So what when Nnoitra have the strongest hierro? That still doesn't mean he's stronger than Ulquiorra like Zommari isn't stronger than Grimmjow.

[Soujirou]

Pumpkin13. Most Espada have some kind of speciality they're good at. Yammy: ONLY Espada that changes number when power up. Aaroniero: ONLY Espada with unlimited evolution. Szayel: ONLY Espada that uses science to work to his opponent disadvantage. Zommari: ONLY Espada with Gamelos Sonido. Nnoitra: ONLY Espada with strongest Hierro. Ulquiorra: ONLY Espada with 2 resurreccions. As for Grimmjow: I guess he's the ONLY Espada thats normal lol. But you see what I am saying? They all have their own talents which what makes them unique doesn't mean they're stronger. Heck Zommari have such a hax ability but still weaker than Grimmjow which is why he's ranked lower. So what when Nnoitra have the strongest hierro? That still doesn't mean he's stronger than Ulquiorra like Zommari isn't stronger than Grimmjow.

This is not quite like how this forum works dude, here it just follow a single rule

#10<#9<#8<#7<#0<#6<#5<#3<#2<#1<#4

Have you ever played those Korean MMORPG grinders? every higher level enemy would change its appearance, and its attack animation, and his stats would be all around higher than the one of a lower level.

That is how things works on this forums, abilities and stuff just apply when people are of the same "level", so before putting a character abilities into play, one must first show enough evidence that they are at the same level.

[Oxyuranus]

Gear4's noobishness made me laugh. "strongest hierro"? It's called boasting, it's when one person big's themselves up to makethemselves seem impressive. What with the massive powergap between Ulquiorra and Noitra, there's no way Noitra's hierro would have been stronger than Ulquiorra's. Let alone the fact that we have Halibel, Barrigan and Stark to account for. Noitra also said he was the strongest espada as well didn't he. Yeah, he's #5.

He is 5, and for good reason BUT to deny that he has the strongest herrio, until proven otherwise is pointless. There is nothing to lead any of us to belive he dosent aside from assumptions and personal prefference that makes us want to put the top 4 astronomicaly over Noi in power, which is probally the case for attack but cant be shown for defense until Kubo refutes it.

In short, Noi has the strongest herrio until provemn otherwise. Just because he lied and boasted about being the strongest dosent mean everything he said was a lie. The stongest comment was refuted before he even said it, being that he was ranked fith and not first or zero as the case may now be.

On to the fight. ASs everyone concluded, Zaraki>>>Koma, especialy with the limited feats we have seen from Koma. As you mentioned pumpkin, that dosent mean that Noi>>>Koma. Zaraki could have one shotted him at the beginning(the proof is there and has been argued to deatjh so no need to bring up the debate again) making zaraki MUCH stronger at full force. MY personal opinion is that Koma would be on par with him. Koma has strength and would most likely be able to cut through his herrio, if not with shikai then with bankai since Zaraki could with the patch on and Koma is thought to be one of the meat heads of the manga. Also, Noi has no special ability to hax the confrontation. The problem lie withion the slowness of Koma's bankai. Though Noi isnt a speedblitzing fool, he is most likly stronger then giant samauri dude so unless shikai can put a good dent in Noi's released state I think Koma will actualy loose this.

Anyway, my 2 cents

[pumpkin13]

In short, Noi has the strongest herrio until provemn otherwise. Just because he lied and boasted about being the strongest dosent mean everything he said was a lie. The stongest comment was refuted before he even said it, being that he was ranked fith and not first or zero as the case may now be.

No but it does cast a major shadow over everything he says as far as i'm concerned. All of the Espada have shown arrogance, even Ulquiorra in a much more subtle way, it is an inherant trait of them.

The problem lies with the slowness of his bankai, which we cannot prove. I don't see why you require Koma's shikai to be able to put a dent in Noi's release? F/e if you say put a dent in his unreleased and his bankai put a dent in his released form because they're the equivalents of each other...

And personal preferences and assumptions that make us want to put the top 4 astronomically over #5 in power? Er... did you read the Ulquiorra fight? It's EASILY far superior to Noitra. Kurosaki get's a power boost since fighting Grimmjow, because he can tank a cero pointblank from Ulquiorra in just bankai, whereas before even a Vaizard Bankai would have suffered from a full on cero somewhat. Ulquiorra can slice through a (boosted) Getsuga Tenshou, unreleased, with one hand, as if it were butter. Then on top of that, point blank slash from (remember boosted) bankai ichigo, does http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/341/11/ absolutely barely anything at all to unreleased Ulquiorra's hierro. So then, even without going res, Ulqui ups his game majorly, then he flicks away Ichigo's new attempt at the "backed up slash GT" without much trouble, he's speaking casually all the time whilst doing it. Vaizard Bankai then blocks another close range cero with only his sword; http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/344/16/ again demonstrating a rise in power, then Ulquiorra continues to rape that, then releases into his second form, and continues to rape ichigo further until blasting a hole in his stomach and releasing Scarmask... im sorry, how is it NOT astronomically more powerful than ANYTHING Noitra demonstrates.

[Cloud Sykes]

Ulquiorra can slice through a (boosted) Getsuga Tenshou, unreleased, with one hand, as if it were butter.
I would like to modify this statement as follows:

Ulquiorra can slice through a (boosted) Getsuga Tenshou, unreleased, with one hand, as if it were a hot knife through butter.

and why would anyone be so cruel as to compare Nnoitra and Ulquiorra? Nnoitra probably already has self esteem issues as it is... lol

[Oxyuranus]

No but it does cast a major shadow over everything he says as far as i'm concerned. All of the Espada have shown arrogance, even Ulquiorra in a much more subtle way, it is an inherant trait of them.

The problem lies with the slowness of his bankai, which we cannot prove. I don't see why you require Koma's shikai to be able to put a dent in Noi's release? F/e if you say put a dent in his unreleased and his bankai put a dent in his released form because they're the equivalents of each other...

And personal preferences and assumptions that make us want to put the top 4 astronomically over #5 in power? Er... did you read the Ulquiorra fight? It's EASILY far superior to Noitra. Kurosaki get's a power boost since fighting Grimmjow, because he can tank a cero pointblank from Ulquiorra in just bankai, whereas before even a Vaizard Bankai would have suffered from a full on cero somewhat. Ulquiorra can slice through a (boosted) Getsuga Tenshou, unreleased, with one hand, as if it were butter. Then on top of that, point blank slash from (remember boosted) bankai ichigo, does http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/341/11/ absolutely barely anything at all to unreleased Ulquiorra's hierro. So then, even without going res, Ulqui ups his game majorly, then he flicks away Ichigo's new attempt at the "backed up slash GT" without much trouble, he's speaking casually all the time whilst doing it. Vaizard Bankai then blocks another close range cero with only his sword; http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/344/16/ again demonstrating a rise in power, then Ulquiorra continues to rape that, then releases into his second form, and continues to rape ichigo further until blasting a hole in his stomach and releasing Scarmask... im sorry, how is it NOT astronomically more powerful than ANYTHING Noitra demonstrates.

Everything Uli did which surpassed Noi was strictly offensive based, aside from the regenerative abilities which have nothing to do with toughness. Uli didnt need to be a tank. His speed was superior and his strength cancelled out Ichi's strength (I.E cutting a GT in half). It had nothing to do with herrio. The only time was when Ichigo cut him across the chest and made mention about how tough he was and Uli was still unreleased . I cant remeber if he was just bankai or in vizard form when that happened but either way, it wasnt at his strength as scarmask as everyone likes to call the new form. As was pretty much proven, vizard mask ichigo is not in the top teir of strength canidates in this series. It can be argued that Kenpachi is stronger very easily considering opponents faced and things shown. (stronger then vizard ichigo that is) That being said, just because Uli's power was astronomical dosent mean his skin was! Nor any of the others. There has to be a reason that he was number 5 and this is the only reason there is to take away from it. Though KT has his flaws as a writer/story teller, I dont think he made that claim without basis so y opinion is its true until proven otherwise by the author, at which time I will concede this stand point.

That being said, considering what we have seen and can take away from the limited exposer that Koma has, he isnt strong enough to dent Noi without bankai and Noi would probally easily dodge the samuri's attacks considering the size and what we have seen. On the same note, it is safe to assume that Noi's attacks would in turn cut the hell out fo Koma considering that he was sent flying by a fraccion. If his shikai couldnt even dent Zaraki with his eye patch on then bankai is all he has and unless it has other abilities with it (which is very pausable) I just cant see him landing hits on Noi because his bankai seems slow from what we have gathered in its limited exposure.

[Soujirou]

Post here all wounds Komamura received from Zaraki at their brief confront where he got grapled when he turned to look at the Failure of Tousen who was sent flying, after that, show me any other attack Koma took from Kenpachi to support your clains that Komamura was Destroyed by Kenpachi on their so called fight.

[BigBoogerBot]

I have to go with Komamura simply because he can keep his cool during a fight.

Im not basing it off of book stats or accomplishments in the manga or trying to compare 6 degrees of fights.

Kenpachi was able to win because he remained cool headed despite his potential dire situation.

Im sure Komamura could do the same.

[Soujirou]

I have to go with Komamura simply because he can keep his cool during a fight.

Im not basing it off of book stats or accomplishments in the manga or trying to compare 6 degrees of fights.

Kenpachi was able to win because he remained cool headed despite his potential dire situation.

Im sure Komamura could do the same.

Yes, not only that but also Komamura wouldn`t unnecessarely lenghten the battle
like Kenpachi loves to, and since Kenpachi took that amount of damage because he wasn`t fighting the best he could so the fight would last more, and i doubt there is a large gap between Kenpachi and Komamura, their physical endurance is evenly matched, and while Komamura is more skilled at the 4 Shinigami fighting techs, Kenpachi got more reiatsu than him (and about everyone else)

[Vyraeil]

I have to go with Komamura simply because he can keep his cool during a fight.

Im not basing it off of book stats or accomplishments in the manga or trying to compare 6 degrees of fights.

Kenpachi was able to win because he remained cool headed despite his potential dire situation.

Im sure Komamura could do the same.

That is actually a very mature and sensible answer, especially considering that regardless of opponent, Nnoitra is fucking insane. Only after reading this have I realised that very rarely (I'm thinking Hichigo here...) does someone win having lost their cool. Komamura seems to be a pretty 'in control' kind of guy, I guess that's what being a massive fox does to you.
So yeah, I reckon this guy ^ has it nailed.