Health Care

[Luna]

I looked through the pages of threads, and didn't see anything specifically like this, so I hope I'm not repeating.

Obama Healthcare Plan (http://forums.bleachexile.com/Obama%20Healthcare%20Plan)

We're on our way to something different with Obama in office. The article linked above lists a few of the key points in his new health care plan, the budget of which should go into effect October 1st.

While these changes should be an improvement, is there more that can or should be done?

During the election, there had been talk about complete socialization versus complete privatization of the health care system. I think we've seen enough of the negative aspects of each to say neither is a great option.

I've heard about a system that I think China uses, in which a patient pays a doctor while they are healthy, but not while ill. This reversal of the current American approach sounds like a better incentive for medical professionals [albeit, maybe not for pharmaceutical companies].

Thoughts?

[Paragon]

Broken link.

[TW501]

I could have sworn that I created a thread for this, but I looked and couldn't find it. Personally, I think that the health-care plan that he is proposing has been needed for a long time. On the other hand, we are in a bit of an economic crisis right now. I understand why he is so ambitious with it, but I can't help but feel that perhaps we should take it more slowly. Then again, if we keep putting it off it might never get done. I do feel that it is a good plan though.

Since the other link doesn't work, here is another link to a place where a summary of the health-care plan can be found.
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/

[Luna]

Thanks for the link, Para TW =P


TW, it might have been part of the Obama Presidency thread, which I admit I haven't read.

I know the new budget sounds very ambitious, especially given the global economic situation, but like you said, it's long overdue. At this rate, we need it to help prevent more individuals from falling into bankruptcy due to health care costs that result from accidents and illnesses that are beyond their control.

I know the budget will contribute to the government's debt, but I think it's better to go that route than to continue allowing average citizens to fall that far into debt on their own. The economy has a cycle like everything else, and I think the government has a much higher chance of bouncing back than families and working class citizens.

It's great that they're directing some new policies towards insurance and pharmaceutical companies. Most people can't afford a decent amount of insurance, much less the actual amount of coverage that they need.

[lurch]

Study: Doctors, hospitals to blame for rising costs (http://www.google.com/search?q=Doctors%2Finsurace+claims+rising+costs+&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3WZPB_enUS316US317&aq=t)
(I did not have time to read them all but this is the aim I was looking into finding for a link)
Is the problem the insurance?
Is the problem the doctors raping the insurance of every claim possible?
Is the problem the kickbacks the doctors get from the Pharmaceutical companies?
Or is it the lack of people paying their bills that increase the insurance?

My point is ...
I think it is a combination of all and fixing one or two points won't solve the problems just may keep things afloat awhile.

The president has been given a big pile of shit and a little shovel and bucket to clean it up with. I hope he can improve the situation but he is sunk knee deep in a pile of crap and doing his best.

I will not be critical of him one way or another personally but doing nothing will only get us further behind and doing the wrong thing could set us into a faster downward spiral.

He has a lot on his shoulders.

[vgrippa]

National Health Care would stimulate economic growth.

National Health Care = No Health Insurance Payments (individuals and companies)

No Health Insurance Payments = More Money in your pocket and your employers pocket

More Money(or demand) = More Purchasing

More Purchasing = More Supply

More Supply = More jobs are needed to make the supply

More jobs = More Demand

also...

More people getting health care (demand) = More Doctors (supply)

also...

More money in your employer's pocket = More money for wages

More wages = More money (demand)

More Demand = More Purchasing

etc...

[Drunkentso]

National Health Care would stimulate economic growth.
National Health Care = No Health Insurance Payments (individuals and companies)
No Health Insurance Payments = More Money in your pocket and your employers pocket
More Money(or demand) = More Purchasing
More Purchasing = More Supply
More Supply = More jobs are needed to make the supply
More jobs = More Demand
also...
More people getting health care (demand) = More Doctors (supply)
also...
More money in your employer's pocket = More money for wages
More wages = More money (demand)
More Demand = More Purchasing
etc...

I'm sorry, but what you don't realize is that the tax on health care would be tremendous. That's how it is with all countries with universal health care. They are taxed greatly in order for the nation to offer it to them.

With that being said, most of the following arguments after the bolded statements would not happen.

[BalrogLord]

hearing people stuggling to pay their health insurance or their hospital bills are frequent

hearing people struggling to pay their taxes is infrequent.

[Drunkentso]

Well, that's because people have been failing to pay taxes for a long time, it's just common. Plus, Presidential Candidates don't focus on what is clearly a government problem, but want to focus on what will tear at peoples' hearts.

[vgrippa]

Well right now in America 40% of your annual income goes to paying taxes. 25% of that being going to pay off the national debt + the interest on that debt. Only 15% of what you pay actually goes to helping you. Now if you take out the Central Bank which loans the nation's currency to the government at interest (as stated in Modern Money Mechanics a booklet produced by the Federal Reserve to describe how money is created in a Fractional Reserve Banking system) you can get rid of the national debt thus lowering taxes to 20-25% of your annual income instead of 40%. Now that number may seem low but consider this: In fiscal year (financial year) 2005, the United States Government collected $927 billion in Federal Income Tax alone, which is 25% of what American's pay in taxes. If that doesn't seem like enough money also consider that 67,000,000+ Americans do not pay their income taxes because there is no law requiring them to. A flat tax of 20-25% that is legal and has a law requiring people to pay it would easily add another 30 billion on to that sum. (that is lo-balling it)

[BalrogLord]

Well, that's because people have been failing to pay taxes for a long time, it's just common. Plus, Presidential Candidates don't focus on what is clearly a government problem, but want to focus on what will tear at peoples' hearts.


most people that make the attempt at tax evasion dont get away with it. Unless of course the americain goverment is a poorly run beauracracy. In theory and In practise in other nations, having a level of social health care greatly benefits a countries citizens. Rather then having thousands of dollars in debth paying for some accident (just look for a quote on hospital bills), you pay a couple thousand extra in your tax return (depending on your tax bracket)

Well right now in America 40% of your annual income goes to paying taxes. 25% of that being going to pay off the national debt + the interest on that debt. Only 15% of what you pay actually goes to helping you. Now if you take out the Central Bank which loans the nation's currency to the government at interest (as stated in Modern Money Mechanics a booklet produced by the Federal Reserve to describe how money is created in a Fractional Reserve Banking system) you can get rid of the national debt thus lowering taxes to 20-25% of your annual income instead of 40%. Now that number may seem low but consider this: In fiscal year (financial year) 2005, the United States Government collected $927 billion in Federal Income Tax alone, which is 25% of what American's pay in taxes. If that doesn't seem like enough money also consider that 67,000,000+ Americans do not pay their income taxes because there is no law requiring them to. A flat tax of 20-25% that is legal and has a law requiring people to pay it would easily add another 30 billion on to that sum. (that is lo-balling it)


@bolded part:what, you have got to be kidding me, You dont have to pay taxes in america?

[CaptainDean]

America should take better care over it's health care system hopefully one day you'll be like us and have a national health care but i know americans hate socialism so it might take a while in the mean time costs of health care should be monitored so people wont have to choose between having a home or receiving treatment

[Drunkentso]

most people that make the attempt at tax evasion dont get away with it. Unless of course the americain goverment is a poorly run beauracracy. In theory and In practise in other nations, having a level of social health care greatly benefits a countries citizens. Rather then having thousands of dollars in debth paying for some accident (just look for a quote on hospital bills), you pay a couple thousand extra in your tax return (depending on your tax bracket)


@bolded part:what, you have got to be kidding me, You dont have to pay taxes in america?

To the first part, yes, those who do attempt to avoid it get caught most of the time, but many times good honest people just can't keep up with taxes and living etc. Especially low income families.

To the second part, there are exceptions to certain conditions that could get you from paying taxes. Part of the number he quoted is from Puerto Rico, a commonwealth of the US. They don;t have to pay taxes. But many poor and very low income families get a tax break since they can barely afford to live.

[vgrippa]

@bolded part:what, you have got to be kidding me, You dont have to pay taxes in america?

No, you have to pay taxes in America but the Federal Income Tax is a different story. The laws regarding this tax are extremely shady and not clear at all. Many people including IRS agents do not pay their Income Tax because they do not have to.

[TW501]

I'm going to step in and ask that this not turn into another thread about income tax. Stick to Health Care. BalrogLord, if you wish to discuss this you can go to the thread for it. I'd ask that this not be discussed here though, as it will inevitably dominate the conversation.