Somalian Pirates

[Rob|Led]

Let me start off by saying there is no way to justify capturing someone through force, so I am not necessarily defending these people. However there is a long history of oppression in this country, something the media has been ignoring.

http://www.sfbayview.com/2009/you-are-bein...-about-pirates/ (http://www.sfbayview.com/2009/you-are-being-lied-to-about-pirates/)

[GregHouse]

Lets see...

They attack a ship sending food and supplies to their own country. (Yeah they really give a shit about Europeans fishing their waters and dumping waste) They fail at that and end up getting their asses handed to them by a bunch of unarmed crew members. Take the captain hostage and try to trade him for money, but fail at that too and end up getting their heads sniped off. Then their friends cry foul and declare "war on america." The whole thing is lols worthy if you ask me.

[B_K_E]

^ I second that motion.

[Rob|Led]

Lets see...

They attack a ship sending food and supplies to their own country. (Yeah they really give a shit about Europeans fishing their waters and dumping waste) They fail at that and end up getting their asses handed to them by a bunch of unarmed crew members. Take the captain hostage and try to trade him for money, but fail at that too and end up getting their heads sniped off. Then their friends cry foul and declare "war on america." The whole thing is lols worthy if you ask me.

Okay, say Somalia was to dump nuclear waste in our oceans, only after depleting all of our fish which is our only consistent food supply. What would you do? Apparently firing on a ship justifies blowing the fuckers up, so I want to hear what you would do if they did to us what we did to them.

Blind patriotism, isnt it great?

[He's a Mentalist]

I smell tension and potential flame thread...

Close this bullshit...

I am not being lied to. You are being delusional.

Apparently firing on a ship justifies blowing the fuckers up

I agree.

[GregHouse]

Yeah, I fail to see how speculative claims of fishing and dumping have anything to do with a bunch of greedy terrorists attacking merchant ships. Sorry.

Apparently firing on a ship justifies blowing the fuckers up, so I want to hear what you would do if they did to us what we did to them.

Well it starts off with a two billion dollar destroyer, and ends with a bunch of dead niggers.

[Fatstogey]

Nice shot. They declare war on us? LOL thats 1,0 us.

[En]

Naval security has always been an issue. Apparently, these people have variety of reasons doing it. The coalition forces and even NATO are interested.

There has to be some responsibility and consciousness to the passing ship in itself and the origin state and of other certain measures under the guiding principles (i.e. UNCLOS) to the utmost probable extent in combating acts of piracy and armed robbery in the sea most specifically with regards to the prosecution of including but not limited to the boarding, searching, and seizing vessels justified to have been engaging in acts of piracy and to apprehending person engaged in such actions.

[Razvan_Asakura]

A quote from that online newspaper...

But behind the arrr-me-hearties oddness of this tale, there is an untold scandal. The people our governments are labeling as “one of the great menaces of our times” have an extraordinary story to tell - and some justice on their side.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Somalia and all that part still in a communist partid? If so, then I somehow don't see the American's being let to run free around there, blowing shit up.

As for the bold part, oh yeah, right, piracy somehow went to the top 5 - great menaces that threat mankind atm. The way I see it, everyone is trying to find a way to start a war. I mean, shit, let's face it, without wars, economy breaks loose, people starve to death, we don't improve in science and so on.

Yeah, I fail to see how speculative claims of fishing and dumping have anything to do with a bunch of greedy terrorists attacking merchant ships. Sorry.

Not all of them are peasants, who just steal only to have something by the end of the day to put in their mouths. The sea has always been a prosper way to make a lot of money and a really reliable one too. There's no doubt that a lot of mafias are running there as well. Amongst all the companies that are ruled by them, there is bound to be some that act more violent.

There's no way the US will try to intervene too much, not in this critical moment, when they owe so much money & they have a lot of countries watching/spying on them. Who's it to say that if they start some shit up like it was in Georgia and they'll involve normal citizens and stuff...that it could be the very beginning of another big ass war.

[arthur11]

Yeah, I fail to see how speculative claims of fishing and dumping have anything to do with a bunch of greedy terrorists attacking merchant ships. Sorry..

They asked for money, I would call them bandits, seeing as there is a war on terrorism you really should be able to tell the difference. Basically it comes down to the fact that they're poor, most likely the west's fault somewhere along the line whether we like it or not. So they decided to go for a big heist; they failed.

This is the case with a lot of countries battered about by the west, people go crazy. I think you'd be right in saying (If the information about waste dumping is fact and If the EU/UN/US are going to be involved in those seas and that country) that instead of just concentrating on the prima faci of the obvious 'pirate problem' they should be mainly looking at healing the root of it by putting a harness on our own dodgy actions in Somalia. Otherwise just stay away and watch as the somalian pirates dwindle.

@Rob/Led I think you made a mistake of questioning the knowledge of some of the people on this forum and suggesting a high gullibility with that link.

[Razvan_Asakura]

They asked for money, I would call them bandits, seeing as there is a war on terrorism you really should be able to tell the difference. Basically it comes down to the fact that they're poor, most likely the west's fault somewhere along the line whether we like it or not. So they decided to go for a big heist; they failed.

This is the case with a lot of countries battered about by the west, people go crazy. I think you'd be right in saying (If the information about waste dumping is fact and If the EU/UN/US are going to be involved in those seas and that country) that instead of just concentrating on the prima faci of the obvious 'pirate problem' they should be mainly looking at healing the root of it by putting a harness on our own dodgy actions in Somalia. Otherwise just stay away and watch as the somalian pirates dwindle.

@Rob/Led I think you made a mistake of questioning the knowledge of some of the people on this forum and suggesting a high gullibility with that link.

Yeah, Rob, because people here usually talk randomly before reading the information all the way.

Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, the U.N. envoy to Somalia, tells me: “Somebody is dumping nuclear material here. There is also lead and heavy metals such as cadmium and mercury - you name it.” Much of it can be traced back to European hospitals and factories, who seem to be passing it on to the Italian mafia to “dispose” of cheaply. When I asked Ould-Abdallah what European governments were doing about it, he said with a sigh: “Nothing. There has been no cleanup, no compensation and no prevention.”

... and I'm pretty sure that's not the only mafia which makes money out of all of this.

[TW501]

There needs to be serious action against these pirates. A multinational military force is needed to eradicate the pirates from the region. There needs to be much harsher military action against them. They can no longer be allowed to threaten shipping.

[arthur11]

or dumping for that matter :P

[He's a Mentalist]

Don't waste military time on these moronic pirates... Better things our military could be doing like, imperi... I mean helping middle-eastern countries rebuild and whatnot.

[GregHouse]

They asked for money, I would call them bandits, seeing as there is a war on terrorism you really should be able to tell the difference.

"Terrorism: the use of terror as a means of achieving a goal"

They attack civilians, take them hostage, and demand to be paid. They're terrorists.

[arthur11]

So would you call robbing someone at knife point an act of terrorism or a mugging, should we call out the military on such a person??

Terrorism these days relates to the an act of terror fueled by politics/religion + politics. The use of terror to enforce political ideals; its a loaded topic but we don't see the military or the police refferring to such acts as casual robbery or assault as terrorism simply because there has to be a defining line (in this case a term) to divide the two.

I know its illogical and it contradicts the actual broader meaning of the word, but due to its now popular contextual use, it is logical to use the word inline with its present connotations i.e. IRA/Militants/Al-Quida. This is simply because it now singularly represents one thing internationally which overrides its root meaning and there are seperate laws for 'acts of terrorism'.

[He's a Mentalist]

Terrorism: the use of terror as a means of achieving a goal


That is only a third part of the definition, also it is only a portion of meaning and intent behind what you quoted.

is perpetrated for an ideological goal (as opposed to a materialistic goal or a lone attack)

try again

[TW501]

"Terrorism: the use of terror as a means of achieving a goal"

They attack civilians, take them hostage, and demand to be paid. They're terrorists.

I wouldn't call them terrorists (though they do sometimes have connections to terrorists). Since the pirates are motivated by money, not politics, they're not really terrorists. They don't target civillians for the sake of creating fear or to further a political agenda, they target them for money.

[Gohan]

Eh, I don't know about calling them terrorists but something definitely has to be done to stop these pirates. The main problem is that the companies that own the boats being taken captive actually pay the ransom. Once the pirates see that people will pay ransom for the ships they'll continue to commit piracy. We need to stop paying the ransoms for the boats and continue attacking piracy through military strength. Eventually they'll become too scared to attack the ships.

As for them attacking boats because we polluted their waters...just tell me what attacking boats will do to solve that. They'll just end up getting their asses kicked by the military. Not just by the U.S. but the many other countries that are in the area hunting for these pirates. The ships they pirate are often ships that are delivering aid to their own country or nearby countries too.

[Cursed]

Let's just carpet bomb Somali coast cities and get it over with.

[GregHouse]

Call them whatever you want. I find it hilarious that one badly written article can convince you to pity them and justify their actions.

[BuddhaOmega]

Considering the average age of Somali pirates is 16, I highly doubt deterrence is going to work. (when was the last time teenage gang violence was deterred by threats of force?)

What is needed is freakin Somali stability in their country. They have been in an almost perpetual state of civil war for 20 years. Which, despite my love of carpet bombing people who think they can mess with America, means no amount of military force is going to change the disposition and amount of attacks from poor militants.

Considering the full plate we have in Iraq and Afghanistan, I'm in no mood to try nation building another country. So, in the meantime a proper escort system and/or mandatory hiring of private security should be in order. No, every ship cannot be properly protected in a convoy (IE 1 combat ship to 1 civilian freighter), but given the small numbers of attacks on a raid by raid basis it is a more manageable problem then it seems.

The real obstacle is not the pirates who can be repelled but the transport companies who refuse to higher security (since they are insured up the ass) or transports of foreign nations who refuse to have escort from NATO or allied ships. Corporate mistrust of local and foreign government intervention to help is a major concern that is often unaddressed. That is, even when ship support is available most companies tell their crews to just let the hijacking happen (its no different than a bank robbery where tellers are told to comply regardless of the situation). That attitude has to go.

[He's a Mentalist]

Call them whatever you want. I find it hilarious that one badly written article can convince you to pity them and justify their actions.

It isn't the article it is the fact that I could care-less. I wish I could bombard ships in open water, steal a bunch of money, and become a made man. This case is different though, those pirates are idiots. They need to carefully map out a plan to steal money from those bastards.

[GregHouse]

Your probably the one person I wasn't talking to. Honestly I don't care either. Like I said I find the pirates to be lols worthy.

[Cursed]

Considering the average age of Somali pirates is 16, I highly doubt deterrence is going to work. (when was the last time teenage gang violence was deterred by threats of force?)

What is needed is freakin Somali stability in their country. They have been in an almost perpetual state of civil war for 20 years. Which, despite my love of carpet bombing people who think they can mess with America, means no amount of military force is going to change the disposition and amount of attacks from poor militants.

Considering the full plate we have in Iraq and Afghanistan, I'm in no mood to try nation building another country. So, in the meantime a proper escort system and/or mandatory hiring of private security should be in order. No, every ship cannot be properly protected in a convoy (IE 1 combat ship to 1 civilian freighter), but given the small numbers of attacks on a raid by raid basis it is a more manageable problem then it seems.

The real obstacle is not the pirates who can be repelled but the transport companies who refuse to higher security (since they are insured up the ass) or transports of foreign nations who refuse to have escort from NATO or allied ships. Corporate mistrust of local and foreign government intervention to help is a major concern that is often unaddressed. That is, even when ship support is available most companies tell their crews to just let the hijacking happen (its no different than a bank robbery where tellers are told to comply regardless of the situation). That attitude has to go.

You can't have pirates if everybody in Somalia is dead.

[B_K_E]

Apparently firing on a ship justifies blowing the fuckers up.

Ever hear the quote "A day that will live in infamy"?

[Sarvik]

I don't see any point arguing if pirates are terrorists or not, term pirate is good enough and they should be hanged anyway.

Piracy is widespread in Somalia because it is profitable with companies paying ransoms. And it probably wont be fixed any time soon either because solving this mess would require far more brutal methods than politicians can afford. Pirates should be denied the ransom at all costs, and as many of them as possible should be killed. That would require essentially assaulting or even sinking every ship they capture as soon as possible, with main priority in maximising number of dead pirates, which would obviously lead to many deaths among hostages, and that would be extremely unpopular.

Other way of fixing it would be trying to fix whole Somalia which would be even more brutal and even less popular. There aren't any good solutions here.

[ichigozero]

To even solve this problem could take years. Sometimes some of those pirates force themselves to be one due to socio-economic reasons. I think that in order to stop the flow of it, you need to start at the very top. Which means you need to change the society itself.

Even terrorism also started at the top. The same people that society may have shunned or outcast, in turn, decides to be a pirate/terrorist to get even with society. So, it pretty much tells us who the real culprits who made these people in the first place. I'm not on the side of the pirates nor am I on the side of the good guys due to their methods but like what William Shakespeare used to say:

"There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so" from Hamlet

Peace mate..

[arthur11]

Considering the full plate we have in Iraq and Afghanistan, I'm in no mood to try nation building another country. So, in the meantime a proper escort system and/or mandatory hiring of private security should be in order. No, every ship cannot be properly protected in a convoy (IE 1 combat ship to 1 civilian freighter), but given the small numbers of attacks on a raid by raid basis it is a more manageable problem then it seems.



Like it ever works anyway. But your right if there was a heavier presence from the merchant navy things would be alot safer.

You can't have pirates if everybody in Somalia is dead.

....There would be no pirates if the eu and us got carpet bombed either; no one to steal from :P

Isn't there a pirate problem in the carribean still? I heard about a problem and a massacre like 5 years ago?

[Cursed]

Seriously now though, the simplest and most effective answer would be to arm the merchant ships. Give them a couple of rifles and machine guns and they'll be able to fend off any pirate attack. Sure we'll probably soon have Pirates of the Caribbean type battles but it's better than having every other ship being hijacked.

[He's a Mentalist]

I agree with Cursed. Open waters, anything goes = you need guns.

[TW501]

I don't know, it seems impractical to arm every ship that passes through that area. Cost aside, a few sailors with guns and minimal firearm experience probably wouldn't do too well against the heavily armed pirates. The ships could hire security guards, but that would be even more expensive.

[Gohan]

Well the reasoning behind not arming the ships is time. If your ship has weapons on board it must be inspected at checkpoints. The companies who own the boats don't want to waste time at checkpoints so they don't arm their boats. I personally think putting one or two armed agents on the boats could be a good idea. The agents could be either from the country that the boat has departed from or the country it is arriving at. Similar to how airplanes in the U.S. now carry Air Marshals.

[Rosh]

Lets see...

They attack a ship sending food and supplies to their own country. (Yeah they really give a shit about Europeans fishing their waters and dumping waste) They fail at that and end up getting their asses handed to them by a bunch of unarmed crew members. Take the captain hostage and try to trade him for money, but fail at that too and end up getting their heads sniped off. Then their friends cry foul and declare "war on america." The whole thing is lols worthy if you ask me.

Very well said mate, I totally agree

[RipVanRagnarok]

Well, at least the ordeal is over thanks to some good sniping.

[Cursed]

Arming ships is not hard at all. Most semi-automatic rifles can be bought for about $1500-$3000 apiece, an insignificant amount to a large shipping company. If all the sailors just pointed all the guns at a pirate ship than they're bound to hit something, and at the ranges you have to deal with at sea, a rifle is just as effective, if not more effective, than an RPG or an assault rifle.

[TW501]

But there's also the chance that such actions would endanger more sailors in the event that ships are captured. It's a complex situation. Of course we're obviously going to start needing some way to prepare ships to better defend themselves, as the pirates are saying that they're going to start targeting American and French ships in retaliation for the military operations against them.

[Cursed]

Still, and armed crew will probably be able to hold off a pirate attack for a significant amount of time, potentially long enough for military ships to arrive. Also if the pirates start seeing that their attacks are costing them men, they'll most likely decrease their attacks and focus on high reward ships, as opposed to attacking every ship they see.

On a side note, any yacht that gets captured deserved it. The crew are idiots for sailing a pleasure boat in pirate infested waters.

[B_K_E]

On a side note, any yacht that gets captured deserved it. The crew are idiots for sailing a pleasure boat in pirate infested waters.

All of the tourists deserve the fate that the Captain and it's crew decided for them then? Doesn't sound right to me.

[blunt_smoker_420]

Ya its hard to predict something like that is going to happen its not there fault.

[arthur11]

Wow, now that turned out to be some major cover up -> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/24/arctic-sea-russia-pirates


somehow i dont think it was just timber on that boat.

[TW501]

That happened in the Baltic sea, so it doesn't really fit in a thread about Somali pirates. I suppose you could create a new thread for it.

[arthur11]

Nah I can assure you it is relevant, i read the article in the newspaper and the initial claim regarding the disapearence of the boat was that somalian or 'east african' (where else would they mean) pirates had hijacked it. The site article is more vague ->

And according to Moscow, the story is reassuringly simple. Eight armed "pirates" seized the Arctic Sea in the late evening of 24 July, off the coast of Sweden. The pirates told the captain to sail for Africa. The Arctic Sea then slipped through the Channel and "disappeared" on or around 30 July, prompting a frantic international search.

I feel its interesting due to russia's great infatuation with the 'pirate menace', somali pirates steal a boat full of ukrainian tanks and somalia asks russia to assist them? Russia is quite a landlocked country in regard to the indian ocean tbh but they do have a major part in arms dealing in africa, hence the ak-47 being so popular, i wouldnt be surprised if russia or russian mafia had connections with somali pirates also. Anyway conspiracy rant over, just thought it was interesting.

[Fatstogey]

Nah I can assure you it is relevant, i read the article in the newspaper and the initial claim regarding the disapearence of the boat was that somalian or 'east african' (where else would they mean) pirates had hijacked it. The site article is more vague ->



I feel its interesting due to russia's great infatuation with the 'pirate menace', somali pirates steal a boat full of ukrainian tanks and somalia asks russia to assist them? Russia is quite a landlocked country in regard to the indian ocean tbh but they do have a major part in arms dealing in africa, hence the ak-47 being so popular, i wouldnt be surprised if russia or russian mafia had connections with somali pirates also. Anyway conspiracy rant over, just thought it was interesting.

Well we do back alley arms deals as well. Its not something that russia participates in on its own. Just that their stupid enough to get caught. lol

IDK im sure that they emptied whatever was on that shit. But other countries need to investigate stories like this. Russia can now just sweep it under the rug. The evidence is gone now all thats left is the people. But they are so scared, and probably paid, that they arent gonna say anything.

[ismey]

Seriously now though, the simplest and most effective answer would be to arm the merchant ships. Give them a couple of rifles and machine guns and they'll be able to fend off any pirate attack. Sure we'll probably soon have Pirates of the Caribbean type battles but it's better than having every other ship being hijacked.

Well my uncle works on a ship and he told me they already have cctv, guns, armor, etc and even hired former army men and stuff so yeah.....
The problem is that the somali pirates have small ships while merchants have big ass ones so thus are hard to spot.
The pirates basically climb over with hook n rope and then take a random guy and sell em for ransom before they can be even noticed by security.

[Ash]

Anybody see the South Park episode that covered this?

"Aye boys we be going to Somalia!"

[Yadomaru]

Nope. But I'm still laughing at those assholes who attacked the La Somme yesterday...a dozen guys with AKs in fiberglass motorboats storming an eighteen-thousand-ton flagship of the French Navy?
Nice call, fellas.

[Goroth]

The mis-capture was pure win. Read it and lol.

I believe that merchant vessels and neutral carriages should be trained properly to fend off attackers and since most of the so called pirates not as pro as one thinks, it is relatively easy to avoid and call for help. If not in the middle of nowhere that is. Gun battle in the open sea sounds a bit dangerous.

[ismey]

Anybody see the South Park episode that covered this?

"Aye boys we be going to Somalia!"

lol yeah i did! fucking hilarious......the song was awesome "somalian pirates we!"