proof of ichigo hollow's true origin.

[dah884]

okay so here's the thing earlier(like a few years ago, 1 or 2) I posted a thread with a theory linking ogihci(ichigo's hollow's name as given by chapter 220 title page, and as I will refer to him in this thread) to ichigo's father, I bring this up because of due to a lack of posts in said thread it disappeared(presumed deleted). Now one of the things most people were adamant about was the supposed thought and well received theory that ogihci was born in the shattered shaft, this in turn has sparked quite a bit of controversy some of which I addressed in the original thread. However, I had seriously overlooked one thing that completely disproves the shatter shaft theory, or at the least should bring under serious question, which was brought to my attention earlier this evening while watching the anime broadcast(this particular episode is still relevant to manga) on adult swim.

the situation:
in chapter 44: awaken[to the threat]
on page 20(on this site) urahara says "hence, without resolve, his power just wildly pours out...
that pour out spiritual power is so thick it can consequently affect every single spirit.
and that is how it happened with you two as well" speaking to chad and inoue.

situation 2:
this is hear because it is the chapter the episode was on, however chronologically speaking it should come after the next one but oh, well.(the next one I thought about earlier today as I looked to see ichigo old vaizard mask spoiler in 378 after his second stage transformation his mask no longer has the marks curving off to one side but is replaced instead with x across the whole mask explained in next situation) back to the situation at hand in chapter 260 which is probably why I didn't put together with the first one until this evening
on page 3(on this site) chad says "my power is more a kin to yours than a shinigami or a quency." now he is speaking to arrancar 107 but it is uncertain in the manga whether he refers to him as an arrancar or hollow.

situation 3:
now this is the situation that probably sat in the back mind until I saw today anime episode before clicking in chapter 226 again far enough from chapter 44 to put it out of mind
on page 4(on this site) hacchi says "the fact that she has that power, and is only a human.
is very hard to believe..." in reference to inoue who he earlier stated had a similar power to his own.

now with these situations stated some of you might already have guessed where I'm going with this but for those that haven't I put forth this question to those who adhere to the shatter shaft theory if ichigo did not have the inner hollow before the shatter shaft how could chad who got his powers by being drenched in ichigo's spirit power have powers with hollow or even arrancar qualities? also how could inoue who also got her powers by being drenched in ichigo's spirit power have powers on equal terms with any of vaizard in particular hacchi?

if this debate has already been posted or resolved I apologize. My intentions were to only add to a theory I myself had posted which I could not add directly.

I do have a copy of all my previous post on this site including the related theory in my archive. Unfortunately I'd have to find those because since their post I have gone through two to three f-disk and a computer switch.

[Andrethegiant]

okay so here's the thing earlier(like a few years ago, 1 or 2) I posted a thread with a theory linking ogihci(ichigo's hollow's name as given by chapter 220 title page, and as I will refer to him in this thread) to ichigo's father, I bring this up because of due to a lack of posts in said thread it disappeared(presumed deleted). Now one of the things most people were adamant about was the supposed thought and well received theory that ogihci was born in the shattered shaft, this in turn has sparked quite a bit of controversy some of which I addressed in the original thread. However, I had seriously overlooked one thing that completely disproves the shatter shaft theory, or at the least should bring under serious question, which was brought to my attention earlier this evening while watching the anime broadcast(this particular episode is still relevant to manga) on adult swim.

the situation:
in chapter 44: awaken[to the threat]
on page 20(on this site) urahara says "hence, without resolve, his power just wildly pours out...
that pour out spiritual power is so thick it can consequently affect every single spirit.
and that is how it happened with you two as well" speaking to chad and inoue.

situation 2:
this is hear because it is the chapter the episode was on, however chronologically speaking it should come after the next one but oh, well.(the next one I thought about earlier today as I looked to see ichigo old vaizard mask spoiler in 378 after his second stage transformation his mask no longer has the marks curving off to one side but is replaced instead with x across the whole mask explained in next situation) back to the situation at hand in chapter 260 which is probably why I didn't put together with the first one until this evening
on page 3(on this site) chad says "my power is more a kin to yours than a shinigami or a quency." now he is speaking to arrancar 107 but it is uncertain in the manga whether he refers to him as an arrancar or hollow.

situation 3:
now this is the situation that probably sat in the back mind until I saw today anime episode before clicking in chapter 226 again far enough from chapter 44 to put it out of mind
on page 4(on this site) hacchi says "the fact that she has that power, and is only a human.
is very hard to believe..." in reference to inoue who he earlier stated had a similar power to his own.

now with these situations stated some of you might already have guessed where I'm going with this but for those that haven't I put forth this question to those who adhere to the shatter shaft theory if ichigo did not have the inner hollow before the shatter shaft how could chad who got his powers by being drenched in ichigo's spirit power have powers with hollow or even arrancar qualities? also how could inoue who also got her powers by being drenched in ichigo's spirit power have powers on equal terms with any of vaizard in particular hacchi?

if this debate has already been posted or resolved I apologize. My intentions were to only add to a theory I myself had posted which I could not add directly.

I do have a copy of all my previous post on this site including the related theory in my archive. Unfortunately I'd have to find those because since their post I have gone through two to three f-disk and a computer switch.

Chad had his own spiritual powers, along with Orihime. However, they weren't shown until Ichigo leaked his own onto them (for lack of a better phrase). He didn't pass his own power onto them, but simply awakened theirs.

[supergarr]

Are you saying it's because ichigo always had his inner hollow, that it was his inner hollows spiritual energy that gave his friends hollow/vaizard like abilities? Because I am not sure what you mean by ichigo's hollow and ichigo's father being connected.

[JayR]

I remember reading your original post, problem is its yet to be explained if Orihime / chad had their own power and backstory to why they have it (like Ishida).

If not then your theory will be true.
Also depends on what his fathers abilities are and why he ran from soul society in the first place. As the manga changes arcs to the point where we learn more about these things we will see by then.

[MMZ]

The safest theory is still that Ichigo's hollow was born in the shattered shaft. Rukia's put it a few times like "a hollow is born when a human soul dies" or "when a lost soul can't find peace or get to soul society." When Ichigo's chain was finished off in the shaft he died, but instead of his soul becoming a shinigami or hollow... it became both.
Orihime and Chad's powers were "awakened" by Ichigo's power, they didn't come directly from Ichigo. Likewise Ichigo had has own powers, but they were "awakened" by Rukia's. Not sure about Chad, but Orihime had a lot more hollow connection and interaction from her brother. On top of that, the flower clips that her powers tend to flow thru were a gift from her brother too, so Orihime could easily be given more backstory on her powers.

[btill9000]

The safest theory is still that Ichigo's hollow was born in the shattered shaft.

I don't know why people like the shattered shaft theory so much. It would be the worst thing that Kubo could possibly do with his story. 300+ chapters based on the full powered Hougyoku being necessary for hollowification, and it turns out that the Shattered Shaft method > Hougyoku. It would be horribly disappointing and it would completely separate Ichigo's hollow origin's from the rest of his story(The rest of his story being the events that occured with his mom and dad.)

[Yadomaru]

Peope like the shattered shaft theory because it's clearly supported by canonical events - Ichigo started becoming a Hollow in the shattered shaft, after Tessai cut the chain that linked his soul to his body.
AT THE SAME TIME, he regained his dormant Soul Reaper powers.

The Hogyoku is necessary for hollowfication of a Soul Reaper - for a Soul Reaper to obtain Hollow abilities. Ichigo IS different from the other Visoreds because they were Soul Reapers first, and obtained Hollow powers later.
Ichigo obtained his Hollow powers AT THE SAME TIME as his Soul Reaper powers.
The fact that his heritage meant he had enormous reiatsu even before he became a soul reaper is not relevant.
Also...
300+ chapters based on the full powered Hougyoku being necessary for hollowification
Turn Back The Pendulum contradicts that statement, since if you recall Shinji and the gang were well on the way to becoming Hollows WITHOUT the Hogyoku having been used.

[dah884]

Are you saying it's because ichigo always had his inner hollow, that it was his inner hollows spiritual energy that gave his friends hollow/vaizard like abilities? Because I am not sure what you mean by ichigo's hollow and ichigo's father being connected.

To answer your first question that is what I was suggesting with this post. As for the second question the connection between ogihci and isshin was a theory I came up with as I was reading the manga to explain how ichigo had his hollow from the beginning. If you wish for me to present what evidence I had on it so you can decide for your self it will take a bit of time for I posted and saved them awhile ago and can't even remember if I back the data up on disk or flash drive.

JayR you are correct that it is still the author's final decision how it will all play out or if it is ever explained at all.

Andrethegiant that is certainly a possibility but as it is now the manga(not just what posted) infers that ichigo's spiritual power directly altered their spirit one way or another. now then their own spirits may have contributed to the change and certainly influenced the form it took(orihime's hairpins and chad's right arm) but at this point it is uncertain as to which had the greater influence over the type of spiritual being their powers took after. However, the points I made do seem to tilt it slightly in favor of ichigo's spirit power being the greater influence.
Not only that, but it would allow the three friends they left behind to have the chance to be of some greater use later on. However, only time will tell.

[RagnarokBlayde]

Hougyoku is necessary for hollowification......?
That statement isn't right. What Aizen did to Shinji and the others 100 years ago proves that. We still don't know exactly how he did it but he didn't have Hougyoku at that time.
Hougyoku destroys the barrier between shinigami and hollow so a power greater than either can be achieved.
But also as far as I see it Hougyoku isn't anywhere close to perfect and not just because its not fully awake or whatever.
Hougyoku artifically does what Ichigo managed to do by himself. That what puts Ichigo in a league of his own.
But yeah everyone thinking that Hougyoku causes hollowifictions is not right. Well just so I have a little room to keep my pride if I am wrong.... If the Hougyoku is used on a Hollow the hollow gains a zanpaktou and becomes an arrancar. Its unknown what would happen to a regular shinigami because shinji and company were hollowified when it was used on them.

And about Ichigo's Hollow. I think EVERYONE has a potential hollow inside them. ( Semi -theory : Could all shinigami's zanpaktou spirits be the other side of the coin to what kind of hollow they would have become? )
Anyways a plus can descend to be a hollow or go to SS and become a shinigami. So anyways I beleive that Ichigos hollow or darkside or regret (he had a fair bit of that) was there before the shattered shaft. But in the SS is where it gained independance if only for a second before Ichigo regained Zangetsu.
A beast as powerful his innerhollow wouldn't just let that be the end of him and he hid within Zangestu until the time was right.
From there he saved Ichigo's life a few times because he needed him alive later.


Whew alot of what I wrote there I beleive I said numerous times in the "Lust and Scarmask"
thread I started a while back.
But yeah I saw so many people make the same statement about Hougyoku I had to speak up....

[Dumbledore]

infers that ichigo's spiritual power directly altered their spirit one way or another
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-44-page-22.html Points to Ichigo awakening their powers rather altering them.

[Ether101]

I don't know why people like the shattered shaft theory so much. It would be the worst thing that Kubo could possibly do with his story. 300+ chapters based on the full powered Hougyoku being necessary for hollowification, and it turns out that the Shattered Shaft method > Hougyoku. It would be horribly disappointing and it would completely separate Ichigo's hollow origin's from the rest of his story(The rest of his story being the events that occured with his mom and dad.)

Could you please stop talking out of your ass? Nowhere was it ever even hinted at that Hougyoku was necessary for hollowification.

[CakeSpoon]

The Hougyoku only stabilised the hollowfication, whether this would've happened anyway is unknown. In hollow it only perfects their arrancarisation, they can occur naturally, but they're usually weaker ( there are exceptions e.g. Starrk, but Nnoitra said they are strengthened by it post arrancarisation also.)

[Slixtrix]

I don't know why people like the shattered shaft theory so much. It would be the worst thing that Kubo could possibly do with his story. 300+ chapters based on the full powered Hougyoku being necessary for hollowification, and it turns out that the Shattered Shaft method > Hougyoku. It would be horribly disappointing and it would completely separate Ichigo's hollow origin's from the rest of his story(The rest of his story being the events that occured with his mom and dad.)

It works for several reasons:
-it makes the most sense
-you dont need the hougyoku
-like said before his hollow powers and shinigami powers were awakened at the same time
-urahara created the hougyoku, you think after 100 years of studying how to make a pefect shinigami/hollow hybrid he didnt learn anything new maybe? like maybe using a human/shinigami hybrid (he obviously knew Isshin and of Ichigos heritage) and giving him shinigami and hollow powers at the same time. What better test subject then the son of a powerful captain that has something different then all of his test subjects before, hes part human and wasnt able to awaken his shinigami powers without help/a method? I mean honestly, Urahara made a method to obtain bankai in 3 days when it normally takes 100s of years.

thats why the shatter shaft is the most favored theory

[btill9000]

Peope like the shattered shaft theory because it's clearly supported by canonical events - Ichigo started becoming a Hollow in the shattered shaft, after Tessai cut the chain that linked his soul to his body.
AT THE SAME TIME, he regained his dormant Soul Reaper powers.

The Hogyoku is necessary for hollowfication of a Soul Reaper - for a Soul Reaper to obtain Hollow abilities. Ichigo IS different from the other Visoreds because they were Soul Reapers first, and obtained Hollow powers later.
Ichigo obtained his Hollow powers AT THE SAME TIME as his Soul Reaper powers.
The fact that his heritage meant he had enormous reiatsu even before he became a soul reaper is not relevant.
Also...

Turn Back The Pendulum contradicts that statement, since if you recall Shinji and the gang were well on the way to becoming Hollows WITHOUT the Hogyoku having been used.

Exactly, your all proving my whole point. The people that support this shattered shaft theory, want Ichigo's hollowification to be a completely random event/anomaly. The story would be much more interesting to me if, instead of being some random backward ass event, it had some kind of meaning behind it. It's like Big Bang vs Jesus. Even if your Athiest, you gotta admit that the whole Jesus story is much more interesting than the Big Bang.

As far as the bashing on my semantic error, I'll explain what I meant and I suppose more bashing will probably occur LOL. Sure Hollowfication can technically occur without the Hougyoku. However, the Hougyoku brings the hollowfied beings closer to perfection. This is where Ichigo comes in at. At this point the Vaizard, who have been training their Hollow abilities for 100 years, seem much weaker than Ichigo. Compared to Ichigo, the Vaizard we have seen can be called the Privaron Vaizard. Until they prove themselves, I am taking Aizen for his word when he called them failed experiments. In other words, Hollowfied beings made through flawed methods are probably flawed, IMO.

Again, the last 300+ chapters have been based around Aizen and the Hougyoku and advanced Hollowfication. It would be pretty annoying if it turns out that all you gotta do is have a shinigami manually transfer their powers over to a human/shinigami and poof perfect Vaizard.


It works for several reasons:
-it makes the most sense
-you dont need the hougyoku
-like said before his hollow powers and shinigami powers were awakened at the same time
-urahara created the hougyoku, you think after 100 years of studying how to make a pefect shinigami/hollow hybrid he didnt learn anything new maybe? like maybe using a human/shinigami hybrid (he obviously knew Isshin and of Ichigos heritage) and giving him shinigami and hollow powers at the same time. What better test subject then the son of a powerful captain that has something different then all of his test subjects before, hes part human and wasnt able to awaken his shinigami powers without help/a method? I mean honestly, Urahara made a method to obtain bankai in 3 days when it normally takes 100s of years.

thats why the shatter shaft is the most favored theory

Not even Aizen or Urahara could've predicted that the shattered shaft events would happen like they did. However, if Urahara or some outside party had something to do with it, then I am fine with it. The people I am talking about are the people that support it just being some random event, where Ichigo got his powers randomly with his shinigami powers.

[dah884]

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-44-page-22.html Points to Ichigo awakening their powers rather altering them.

okay, I will admit that that could in fact mean that, however we are talking about urahara here. Now by this what I mean is simply that he sometimes(extremely stressed) has a very unique way of putting things. Since every plus has a natural barrier between it's regular state and hollow state then it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that ichigo's power drawing out theirs could refer to both the plus side and the hollow side(of course more safely(hopeful) than his due to them being among the living and him being in shinigami form) without much of the barrier that separates them. And in that way ichigo's power would have not just drawn them out but alter them on a fundamental level. This would explain as well the level of their powers minus the strength and control which was earned through training.

[Dumbledore]

I'll go with what Urahara said.
Ichigo's spiritual pressure =/= the Hougyoku.

[Yadomaru]

Exactly, your all proving my whole point. The people that support this shattered shaft theory, want Ichigo's hollowification to be a completely random event/anomaly. The story would be much more interesting to me if, instead of being some random backward ass event, it had some kind of meaning behind it.
That's the fundamental flaw in your argument - it's just YOUR OPINION, which you're trying to either claim as fact, despite the fact that the canon events thus far contradict it, or to say "it'd be much better if" - which is nice, and might even be true, but it's still not supported by what the manga has told us so far.

t's like Big Bang vs Jesus. Even if your Athiest, you gotta admit that the whole Jesus story is much more interesting than the Big Bang.
I'm sorry, what? What does the Jesus story have to do with the Creationism v. Evolutionism debate? Not a goddamn thing. The GENESIS story(Old Testament) is what you're thinking of, I think.

[dragonil]

Considering that Ichigo recognized the reiatsu of his father similair to that of a hollow i think that ichigo was born with both powers that of a shinigami and Hollow.
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107532/03.jpg
Here ichigo is questioning himself if the immense reiatus is that of a hollow not of a shinigami.There should be a difference between hollow reiatsu and shingami reiatsu or?
Besides that after the fight against ulquiorra ichigo used an ability similair to inoues sun sun rikka (if the name is correct)

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000160602/09.jpg
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107582/08.jpg
Here u can see that both techniques resemble each other.

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000106212/10.jpg
This picture is the proof for me that ichigos Hollow existed in him way before the shattered shaft cause the way ichigo behaves and the look in his face are that of his hollow and not of ichigo.

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107322/01.jpg
Here it shows a similair situation and the same look on ichigos face but in another situation.

[Fatstogey]

Are you saying it's because ichigo always had his inner hollow, that it was his inner hollows spiritual energy that gave his friends hollow/vaizard like abilities? Because I am not sure what you mean by ichigo's hollow and ichigo's father being connected.

Anyone has the capability to become a hollow. Ichigo is a human. However he is also a shinigami.

Ishiins spirit pressure has apparently been gone quite some time untill now. So shinigami comes to the real world. GEts the human gigai deal from Urahara. Turns himself human then has a kid.

Now we gotta kid that was fated to be a shinigami however is now also human, due to some science witchcraftery.

Then Urahara does the cut the chain of fate deal. And hes guessing since Ichigo is a psuedo human/shinigami wierdo that the hollow will take in there as well.

Its because you wouldnt know a human was capable of becoming a shinigami untill he/she died. But with Ichigo hes a human who you know has a shinigami for a father. So now we can make a hybrid.

Ichigo gained his shinigami powers at the same time as his hollow powers. He was able to do so for those few reasons.
1. Dad shinigami
2. Rukia stabs his ass. So now he knows what a shinigami is, most humans dont
3. Byakuya stabs him. Now aint got nothing
4. Now we have a guy who Urahara knows wasnt just using rukias power. Urahara k nows he a shinigami. Yet he is a human. Even if other humans are capable of becoming shinigami we wont know it until the aretn human anymore.
5 cut chain of fate. But its different. It isnt a human who has no idea whats going on. Its a shinigami human thing. I.e. Ichigo knew what was happening too him. When you die and naturally turn into a hollow you probably would have no clue what the hell was going on.
6. Urahara may have also used other catalysts we arent aware of.

So Ichigo was a rare case. WE i dont think so. I think Ichigos life and power were planned out by his father and urahara from the beginning. It was intentional to make him a vizard from the day he was born. IMO

[Yadomaru]

Considering that Ichigo recognized the reiatsu of his father similair to that of a hollow i think that ichigo was born with both powers that of a shinigami and Hollow.
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107532/03.jpg

Uh...no.
Ichigo here is not STATING that the reiatsu he senses is a Hollow's, nor is he recognizing it as belonging to his father. He is sensing a reiatsu he does not recognize, and is ASKING whether it is a Hollow's.
Asking =/= recognition.
What's more, that's a fan translation and there's no guarantee as to its accuracy.

[mytyeerinpie]

I never thought that Ichigos father would have had anything to do with it, but that really makes sense. The only problem I see with that is that they didn't plan on Rukia stabbing him, did they. I do agree with this point ( Urahara may have also used other catalysts we arent aware of)though the most through because so many things Urahara has done that we have had no idea about or havent found out about until MUCH later no one seems upset though, that he uses the mask though so maybe they did plan for him to become a vizard/shinigami

[btill9000]

That's the fundamental flaw in your argument - it's just YOUR OPINION, which you're trying to either claim as fact, despite the fact that the canon events thus far contradict it, or to say "it'd be much better if" - which is nice, and might even be true, but it's still not supported by what the manga has told us so far.


I'm sorry, what? What does the Jesus story have to do with the Creationism v. Evolutionism debate? Not a goddamn thing. The GENESIS story(Old Testament) is what you're thinking of, I think.

We are all trading in opinions and theory's here. The shattered shaft theory is called just that a theory. There's about 5 to 10 people on this board that always resort to trying to win a debate by arguing that what your saying is an opinion, and it's so annoying. As far as the Creationism vs Evolutionism debate goes, it's a perfect metaphor. Were Ichigo's powers created or affected by an outside party or is it just basic evolution from some random anomaly?


So Ichigo was a rare case. WE i dont think so. I think Ichigos life and power were planned out by his father and urahara from the beginning. It was intentional to make him a vizard from the day he was born. IMO

This would be my preference^. Thus far Aizen and Urahara have been the master minds of most of the stuff that is occuring. I'd like that to apply to Ichigo as well.

[Athane]

What the OP is trying to get at is that it has something to do with them being HUMAN.

[Slixtrix]

Exactly, your all proving my whole point. The people that support this shattered shaft theory, want Ichigo's hollowification to be a completely random event/anomaly. The story would be much more interesting to me if, instead of being some random backward ass event, it had some kind of meaning behind it. It's like Big Bang vs Jesus. Even if your Athiest, you gotta admit that the whole Jesus story is much more interesting than the Big Bang.

As far as the bashing on my semantic error, I'll explain what I meant and I suppose more bashing will probably occur LOL. Sure Hollowfication can technically occur without the Hougyoku. However, the Hougyoku brings the hollowfied beings closer to perfection. This is where Ichigo comes in at. At this point the Vaizard, who have been training their Hollow abilities for 100 years, seem much weaker than Ichigo. Compared to Ichigo, the Vaizard we have seen can be called the Privaron Vaizard. Until they prove themselves, I am taking Aizen for his word when he called them failed experiments. In other words, Hollowfied beings made through flawed methods are probably flawed, IMO.

Again, the last 300+ chapters have been based around Aizen and the Hougyoku and advanced Hollowfication. It would be pretty annoying if it turns out that all you gotta do is have a shinigami manually transfer their powers over to a human/shinigami and poof perfect Vaizard.

-it wouldnt be random/backward ass event if Urahara orchestrated everything when training Ichigo
-EXACTLY, about what Aizen said to the Vaizard about being flawed. Aizen was not as smart as Urahara is the way of hollowfication (hence why he needed the hougyoku) and failed to create perfect hybrids, making the former captains/VCs flawed. Which hints towards there being a perfect hybrid somewhere in the manga (which we dont know who it is yet, most likely Ichigo....he is the main character), which hints towards some Urahara funny business
-To the last bolded point: thats not what i said/what would have to be done at all. All this hollow stuff has shit to do with Rukia as we saw no evidence of a hollow in Ichigo until AFTER training with Urahara. Coincidence??...dont think so

Considering that Ichigo recognized the reiatsu of his father similair to that of a hollow i think that ichigo was born with both powers that of a shinigami and Hollow.
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107532/03.jpg

What?!?!?! nooooo? many things go against your statement especially since he only asked if it was a hollow, since he sucks at sensing reitsu

Here ichigo is questioning himself if the immense reiatus is that of a hollow not of a shinigami.There should be a difference between hollow reiatsu and shingami reiatsu or?
Besides that after the fight against ulquiorra ichigo used an ability similair to inoues sun sun rikka (if the name is correct)

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000160602/09.jpg
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107582/08.jpg
Here u can see that both techniques resemble each other.

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000106212/10.jpg
This picture is the proof for me that ichigos Hollow existed in him way before the shattered shaft cause the way ichigo behaves and the look in his face are that of his hollow and not of ichigo.

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107322/01.jpg
Here it shows a similair situation and the same look on ichigos face but in another situation.

shows no logical evidence whatsoever.

What the OP is trying to get at is that it has something to do with them being HUMAN.

exactly what i pointed to in my other post, what other shinigami/human hybrids at birth have we had in the story? NONE. theres obviously something special about Ichigo being the son of a powerful shinigami and a human

[RedRibbon]

I do have a copy of all my previous post on this site including the related theory in my archive. Unfortunately I'd have to find those because since their post I have gone through two to three f-disk and a computer switch.

you have a copy of all your previous post? :huh:

[Chronatus]

Isn't it true that Rukia had the hogyoku inside of her when she transferred her powers to Ichigo? Could that possibly have any effect?

[BigBoogerBot]

Ichigo's hollow was born in a van down by the river.

Comparing ichigo's face to that of the hollow seems a little iffy, since it could just be him with his resolve face, not a crazy psychotic killer face. The picture of him fighting Renji for the first time.

The first time we've seen Ichigo turn into a hollow, or at least begin turning into a hollow is in the shattered shaft, so that place gets my vote for where his hollow was born.

[Dumbledore]

Isn't it true that Rukia had the hogyoku inside of her when she transferred her powers to Ichigo? Could that possibly have any effect?
Urahara deactivated the hogyoku before putting it inside her, and I also think he did it after she gave her powers to ichigo.

[CakeSpoon]

Urahara deactivated the hogyoku before putting it inside her, and I also think he did it after she gave her powers to ichigo.

Aizen said that by the time he figured out the hogyoku was in Rukia she had gone to the real world, which means unless Urahara snuck back in, he put it in her before he was kicked out. Unless there was a translation mix-up, or a little whoopsie by Kubo, or I just read it wrong.

[Dumbledore]

^ Thats why I said, "I think", i'm not sure, but I know he deactivated it.

[CakeSpoon]

On that note, it's very unlikely, but maybe Ichigo's reiatsu awakened it?

[eoddc5]

Aizen said that by the time he figured out the hogyoku was in Rukia she had gone to the real world, which means unless Urahara snuck back in, he put it in her before he was kicked out. Unless there was a translation mix-up, or a little whoopsie by Kubo, or I just read it wrong.

i was under the impression that he transferred it into her when she was under his care recouping her power after transferring it to ichigo... during the time she was unconscious he embedded her with the HG, and then tricked her into hiding it with the spirit sapping gigai, where she thought she was given a normal gigai

he tried to turn her into a complete human so no one could ever find her reiatsu, and thus, never find the HG


part 2 --- the skit about ichigo sensing his father's hollow pressure? i was under the impression that the crazy amount of spirit pressure was him sensing grand fisher on the prowl...he recognizes it as a hollow, because, well, he is one..but its an unfamiliar and super strong experience to him because its not just a hollow, but an arrancar

in fact, im not 100% sure, and im not going back to check old chapters, but isnt grand fisher-arrancar the first arrancar we meet?

part 3 - the reason ichigo became a shinigami is because his latent powers were awoken through rukia's transfer to save his life...she imbued her powers into him, sparking his powers to awake....this (specutatively) should only be true because his father is/was a shinigami and passed on powers to his child through DNA and genetics

the reason he was able to obtain hollow powers was because - like its been said already - he is human...tessai cut his soul chain, thus almost killing him - if he did not overcome his hollow, then he would have died, and become a full hollow --- but his shinigami powers fully awakened and overtook his hollow, keeping him from death...and "reviving" him...

he did not use the HG, nor would it have worked on him, because -- like its been said already -- the HG breaches the gap between a hollow and a shinigami .... if we look at a spectrum.... a full hollow is -10 and a full shinigami is a +10....no matter how hard they train, they can maybe get to -2 and +2 respectively, but never to 0, where the two meet, where the two become one

that is what aizen hopes to achieve by using the HG, the fusion of the two

not sure really what else to say, people can theorize all they want but the the facts up till now:

we KNOW that byakuya killed ichigo, and urahara (who knew about his partial shinigami-fication) came to save him (had he not, ichigo would have died) --- his soul actually split from his human body, that is why we see him running around with a soul chain, the natural progression after a human dies

the whole reason for shattered staff was to rescue ichigo, though urahara could have just let ichigo wander around as a helpless plus, waiting to get devoured by a hollow - he sensed something great in him, knew of the connection to isshin, and thus was determined not to let this slip away

he used his method to breach the line between his latent powers, his given powers, and his human life.....knowing that if he did not pass the test, he would turn into a hollow and they would have to kill him

while i am not sure urahara KNEW that he would turn into a vaizard or not, we do not have evidence of this yet, we do know that urahara certainly knew what a vaizard was...

so the rest is unsolved as of yet...but no, ichigo in no way shape or form just randomly evolved into a hollow...nor would the HG have done anything to him at all --- though gets you wondering, what if it was used on him now?

so i would not say it is an anomaly that he became a hollow, nor would i say it was done on purpose....that said i see no comparison to jesus, evolution, nor any biblical creation

[btill9000]

Unless there was a translation mix-up, or a little whoopsie by Kubo, or I just read it wrong.

You just pointed out one of the more interesting things about Bleach. No one really knows what the hell Urahara is up too. Half the time I can't figure out if he's the villain, the true hero, just the crazy scientist that wants to experiment on stuff, or some redundant combination of all of the above.

[CakeSpoon]

i was under the impression that he transferred it into her when she was under his care recouping her power after transferring it to ichigo... during the time she was unconscious he embedded her with the HG, and then tricked her into hiding it with the spirit sapping gigai, where she thought she was given a normal gigai

in fact, im not 100% sure, and im not going back to check old chapters, but isnt grand fisher-arrancar the first arrancar we meet?



http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/175/14/

Iceringer was the first arrancar to be shown in the series http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/25/18/ Grandfisher wasn't an arrancar at that stage.

[skycrapper]

I really wonder though . . .

Rukia transferred her shinigami powers to Ichigo along with the fact that she was also the soul container of the Hougyouku. Will it affect the transferred shinigami powers?

Hmmm . . .

[dragonil]

If the Hyogyoku had anything to do with ichigos hollow powers casue rukia transferred her powers to him then it would also have affected rukias power and unleashed something by her or?

Ichigo now has the resolve to prtect his friends but his powers are still awakening abilitys by others like tasuki,Keigo and Mizuru so Uraharas sentence is not 100% accurate maybe he is also responsible for isshin getting his shinigamis power back.

Besides that Ichigo is been ablt to tell the difference between hollow and shinigami reiatsu.I mean at the time yammy and ulquiorra came to earth he knew immediately that they are hollows and not shinigamis but he questioned if his dads reiatsu is that of a hollow.

The power hungry part in ichigo is not zangetsu but ogichi so how caome ichigo would take rukias whole power if not due to his hollow?

[BigBoogerBot]

Because he sucks at controlling his spirit power.

[Takalo]

To the last bolded point: thats not what i said/what would have to be done at all. All this hollow stuff has shit to do with Rukia as we saw no evidence of a hollow in Ichigo until AFTER training with Urahara. Coincidence??...dont think soActually, she noted that she has never seen a mere human doing the things that Ichigo does. She also notes his progression into using "high level shinigami techniques" as unbelievably quick and unmatched by any she's seen. Urahara also mentions that he's unlike shinigamis too.

Some examples:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-1-page-51.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-1-page-52.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-1-page-53.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-1-page-54.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-8-page-11.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-8-page-12.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-8-page-13.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-8-page-14.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-44-page-20.html

This isn't to say your point is invalid (because it's not; it's entirely correct, hollows are never mentioned at all when discussing Ichigo), but it's something to think about.

[fastaslightning]

If the Hyogyoku had anything to do with ichigos hollow powers casue rukia transferred her powers to him then it would also have affected rukias power and unleashed something by her or?

Ichigo now has the resolve to prtect his friends but his powers are still awakening abilitys by others like tasuki,Keigo and Mizuru so Uraharas sentence is not 100% accurate maybe he is also responsible for isshin getting his shinigamis power back.

Besides that Ichigo is been ablt to tell the difference between hollow and shinigami reiatsu.I mean at the time yammy and ulquiorra came to earth he knew immediately that they are hollows and not shinigamis but he questioned if his dads reiatsu is that of a hollow.

The power hungry part in ichigo is not zangetsu but ogichi so how caome ichigo would take rukias whole power if not due to his hollow?

I see what you are saying, but I don't think he is referring to his father when it comes to that reitsu.
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107532/03.jpg

What I see is Ichigo noticing GF's spiritual pressure, and noting it, which makes Shinji suggest he is stupid (LOL) but even Shinji didn't know the shinigami pressure.

Now remember in that fight Issin was not the one touting the huge pressure. It was GF. He was suggesting that because his sword was so huge and all that, it was only a second that Issin release some pressure to whoop GF real quickly. He even said that if he didn't seal his pressure in he would be carrying around a skyscraper for a sword.

To me this means he was concealing his pressure and GF was trying to overwhelm everything, so the only one Ichigo (captain crapper of sensing reitsu) could detect was GF, where Shinji was tuned enough to notice a very strong person concealing them self.

That's my take, so I don't see the hollow coming from Issin but instead Ichigo's mother who was human, therefore making Ichigo human and able to turn into a hollow. I truly think that the only reason Ichigo had ANY chance of becoming a shinigami was because his father, if not he would have simply become a hollow in Urahara's basement. Urahara knew his father so he knew he had a very good chance of becoming what could be the best of both worlds because he is perfectly half and half, not like the current viazards who had no hollow until they were experimented on.

Chris

[fastaslightning]

Actually, she noted that she has never seen a mere human doing the things that Ichigo does. She also notes his progression into using "high level shinigami techniques" as unbelievably quick and unmatched by any she's seen. Urahara also mentions that he's unlike shinigamis too.

Some examples:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-1-page-51.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-1-page-52.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-1-page-53.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-1-page-54.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-8-page-11.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-8-page-12.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-8-page-13.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-8-page-14.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-44-page-20.html

This isn't to say your point is invalid (because it's not; it's entirely correct, hollows are never mentioned at all when discussing Ichigo), but it's something to think about.

Now that second set of links is one thing that pisses me off about Bleach. One second he cannot sense crap, (ie when fighting shinji and then senses GF) but earlier he used "A high level shinigami technique". WTF?! KT, keep it simple stupid, he either can sense reitsu very well or he sucks at it.

Chris

[dragonil]

I think the reason why ogichi didnt make an appearance way sooner is casue ichigo body was simply too weak to handle all the spirtual pressure.http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000106782/02.jpg
Here Ogichi is telling Zangetsu to train Ichigo well so that he would become powerful enough.That gave me the impression that Ogichi can only come out as soon as ichigos body got stronger and been able to handle high spirutuell pressure.
Thats maybe the reason why his first appearance was after Ichigo learnt Ban kai.

The problem i see that his mom is involved with his powers are that his 2 sisters doesnt ssem to have a high reiatsu like ichigo did as a human.But that could be casue of the age difference between them mainly the more time Isshin wore his Gigai the lesser power his childs got.Thats why Ichigo>Karin>Yuzu.

[fastaslightning]

I think the reason why ogichi didnt make an appearance way sooner is casue ichigo body was simply too weak to handle all the spirtual pressure.http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000106782/02.jpg
Here Ogichi is telling Zangetsu to train Ichigo well so that he would become powerful enough.That gave me the impression that Ogichi can only come out as soon as ichigos body got stronger and been able to handle high spirutuell pressure.
Thats maybe the reason why his first appearance was after Ichigo learnt Ban kai.

The problem i see that his mom is involved with his powers are that his 2 sisters doesnt ssem to have a high reiatsu like ichigo did as a human.But that could be casue of the age difference between them mainly the more time Isshin wore his Gigai the lesser power his childs got.Thats why Ichigo>Karin>Yuzu.

not for nothing but the idea that ogichi didn't make an appearance sooner being too weak, doesn't make sense either, since Ichigo was never weaker than when he had basically no spiritual pressure. And that was after Byakaya destroyed it. That was exactly when ogichi made the first appearance.

Remember that when the spirit chain is severed and reaches the person they become a hollow. That is what they did. Just like when Don Kanunji or whatever his name is did that to the spirit of that dude in the hospital. He irritated the hole/chain and sped up the process. Without a shinigami side to fight it, once the chain reaches the chest, you are a hollow. That shinigami side is what makes Ichigo special.

Chris

[GeroTheKeymaster]

I'm not going to get involved in the whole "how long has Ichigo's hollow existed" debate, but I will say something about Rukia's having the HG inside her. Urahara left about 60 years before Rukia became a shinigami (based on him being gone from SS 100 years, and Ikkaku saying Renji hadn't talked to Rukia for 40 years [last time being when they were both in academy]), so I don't think he planted it in her before her trip to the real world. I personally think he did it when her gigai began to fail and he gave her the special one that hides reitsu and slowly turns you into a human. I think that the HG was hidden inside the special gigai, and fused with Rukia's soul when she put it on...

[dah884]

you have a copy of all your previous post? :huh:

yes, yes I do, is that weird?

I think the reason why ogichi didnt make an appearance way sooner is casue ichigo body was simply too weak to handle all the spirtual pressure.http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000106782/02.jpg
Here Ogichi is telling Zangetsu to train Ichigo well so that he would become powerful enough.That gave me the impression that Ogichi can only come out as soon as ichigos body got stronger and been able to handle high spirutuell pressure.
Thats maybe the reason why his first appearance was after Ichigo learnt Ban kai.

The problem i see that his mom is involved with his powers are that his 2 sisters doesnt ssem to have a high reiatsu like ichigo did as a human.But that could be casue of the age difference between them mainly the more time Isshin wore his Gigai the lesser power his childs got.Thats why Ichigo>Karin>Yuzu.

Okay, I think there might be a little confusion from/for those that didn't get a chance to read the original thread I posted and since it would take a bit of time for me to find my copies of said thread I will basically summarize(mind you I also had pages and chapters to go with these points) in the original thread I stated that ogihci was the result of urahara putting the hougyoku in isshin who went into one of the spirit zapping gigia's(explains how he lost his powers). had hougyoku removed after ichigo's birth(most likely due to urahara's prediction.(added) ogihci there since the beginning doesn't make his move, until after shatter shaft because he has intelligence and patience something uniquely reserved for the more powerful hollows(suggesting much higher level than basic starting hollow).

[CakeSpoon]

I'm not going to get involved in the whole "how long has Ichigo's hollow existed" debate, but I will say something about Rukia's having the HG inside her. Urahara left about 60 years before Rukia became a shinigami (based on him being gone from SS 100 years, and Ikkaku saying Renji hadn't talked to Rukia for 40 years [last time being when they were both in academy]), so I don't think he planted it in her before her trip to the real world. I personally think he did it when her gigai began to fail and he gave her the special one that hides reitsu and slowly turns you into a human. I think that the HG was hidden inside the special gigai, and fused with Rukia's soul when she put it on...

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/175/14/

This suggests that the Hogyoku was in her before she entered the real world, so either Urahara snuck back in only to implant it, or he did so before he left.

[BigBoogerBot]

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/175/14/

This suggests that the Hogyoku was in her before she entered the real world, so either Urahara snuck back in only to implant it, or he did so before he left.

She didnt go missing in the real world until after she transfered her powers to ichigo and got a gigai from Urahara.

[dragonil]

Okay, I think there might be a little confusion from/for those that didn't get a chance to read the original thread I posted and since it would take a bit of time for me to find my copies of said thread I will basically summarize(mind you I also had pages and chapters to go with these points) in the original thread I stated that ogihci was the result of urahara putting the hougyoku in isshin who went into one of the spirit zapping gigia's(explains how he lost his powers). had hougyoku removed after ichigo's birth(most likely due to urahara's prediction.(added) ogihci there since the beginning doesn't make his move, until after shatter shaft because he has intelligence and patience something uniquely reserved for the more powerful hollows(suggesting much higher level than basic starting hollow).
Didnt Aizen mentioned that Urahara sealed the Hogyoku away after he learnt about how dangerous it is?
If the Hogyuku was sealed and not awake can it even has an effect on anybody?

[Catscratch]

As for shattered shaft vs Hogyouku:

Hogyouku is for Shinigami and Hollows. Ichigo had lost his borrowed powers and was technically a normal soul again. So Hogyouku wouldn't work on him anyways. Urahara had to improvise :D After this point, I think Urahara wasn't even trying to help him get his Shinigami powers back. He probably used him for a test to create hybrids. Being a shinigami for even a short time might have helped him to succeed.

I don't think he had hollow side before shattered shaft. We don't know reiatsu affecting people in a good or bad way or what people can turn into afterwards. Chad was always fighting so he turned into a soldier and Orihime was grieving for her brother so she got reversing fate powers. It's pretty much about people's characters. So it wouldn't prove ichigo having hollow before shattered shaft.

As for ichigo not losing himself immediately after Shattered Shaft:

We know that he progresses only when he needs power. He pretty much hit his limit as a shinigami way sooner than anyone else and he needed more power to defeat Byakuya so his Hollow side emerged and helped. Another point is that he only knew about being shinigami so he looked like a shinigami after the process. He is always changing according to his needs, nothing else.

[Digitality]

As for shattered shaft vs Hogyouku:

Hogyouku is for Shinigami and Hollows. Ichigo had lost his borrowed powers and was technically a normal soul again. So Hogyouku wouldn't work on him anyways. Urahara had to improvise :D After this point, I think Urahara wasn't even trying to help him get his Shinigami powers back. He probably used him for a test to create hybrids. Being a shinigami for even a short time might have helped him to succeed.


I'd support this theory. Urahara is not the kind of person to leave anything to uncalculated chance. He'd had experience with the hollowfication process before, and had created the hogyouku to break the barrier between both sides. He did also help save the vizard too. So he is easily the person with the most experience in the subject. He's also a manipulative bastard, even if it's for the "good" side.

He probably sensed something in Ichigo, or at the very least was confident in the power of his spirit. Worst case scenario, Ichigo turned into a hollow (oops) a step up from that he'd be a shinigami, which would suit Urahara's immediate needs. Someone with the drive and desire to rescue Rukia who secretly contained the hougyoku , without needing any pushing or explanation from an outside influence. (though he would've known he'd be woefully inadequate matched up against any captain without even further support) Hopefully though, Ichi'd become something more altogether, which would make him a much more useful tool in the long run.

The underlying drive to the story after all, is an elaborate chessmasters duel between the genius and manipulative minds of Aizen and Urahara. Both are constantly making moves against the other with whatever means they have at hand. This isn't to say that Urahara is uncaring or cold, he definitely has more compassion for his pawns than Aizen.

It's really for these reasons that I hope Urahara himself has become a vizard, because it's not hard to believe Aizen would take that step for the power. I'd rather see Urahara vs Aizen in a final battle than Ichigo even though he's the "main hero" it gets kind of old when only 1 character can step up to the "current strongest enemy". It would also be cool to see the mental duel between Urahara and Aizen turn into some full on chess boxing with them finally butting heads physically. Neither has even revealed their bankai, and it just would fit so perfectly for them I feel.

Barring Urahara undergoing the process himself though, he would have had to be 99% sure what would happen to Ichigo, to know that he had the capacity to match up against Aizen when the time came. If not preparing himself for the confrontation, he would have almost invariably invested heavily into a single playing piece for that purpose during the final gambit.

There's no way Kisuke would have gambled entirely on Aizen not attaining the hogyouku as his final strategy. That was simply a Xanatos gambit, and even though result A would've been better, he had to be planning ahead for scenario's B, C, and D already. lol Even Aizen had a back up plan if the execution of Rukia didn't work.

[erudit]

Okay, so from what I read from the previous posts of this thread...

Ichigo had the potential to become a hollow from his mother, who is a human, and shinigami powers from his father, who is a shinigami. Urahara didn't 'create' a hollow side of Ichigo, nor was Ichigo a hollow from birth. Rather, when he was inside the basement, both reservoirs of power awakened simultaneously.

That, added to Ichigo's already immense riatsu + Hogyoku from Rukia, could possibly explain why he was able to unlock his full hollow powers?

[airheadgreg]

I haven't had chance to read the entire thread and will be doing in a moment, but I just had a thought which may have already been posted regarding the origin of Ichigo's hollow form.

Ichigo is obviously no ordinary shinigami, and he originally gained his shinigami powers from Rukia by having her stab him in the chest with her zanpaktou...so my thought is that maybe Rukia created the hollow Ichigo in that moment? I'm thinking a sword to the chest is kinda deadly, so something took a beating within Ichigo...maybe that is the cause of his inner hollow.

Sorry for the vague-ness, if I have any more epiphanies I'll try and elaborate =P

[d2sharp]

It wasn't rukia, every soul has the potential to become a hollow, and I feel it's the circumstances of Ichigo gaining his own shinigami powers (uraharas' experiment) which lead to his hollow side, being awakened(his soul chain was basically gone). Further him reaching bankai allowed the holow side of his soul to take over(the hollow is a part of zangetsu also, and overcame the old man).

[dah884]

Well it would appear that either one of my two origin theories are practically proven with the chapter 397. The question now is which of the two(hopefully). Now for those that don't remember this is in fact my second origin theory. My first stipulated in the long dead thread "looking for royalty in all the wrong places" (died 2-5 years ago) stated that Ichigo was the merger of a royal shinigami (Isshin obviously) and a vasto lorde/royal hollow (his mother) both using the special gigai. The first was subsequently left alone(more like abandoned, but I thought there was still a chance) with the introduction of the hougyoku.

Of course a combination could be right where you have my first theory with the hougyoku used a bridge between them.

[khayman31]

Well it would appear that either one of my two origin theories are practically proven with the chapter 397. The question now is which of the two(hopefully). Now for those that don't remember this is in fact my second origin theory. My first stipulated in the long dead thread "looking for royalty in all the wrong places" (died 2-5 years ago) stated that Ichigo was the merger of a royal shinigami (Isshin obviously) and a vasto lorde/royal hollow (his mother) both using the special gigai. The first was subsequently left alone(more like abandoned, but I thought there was still a chance) with the introduction of the hougyoku.

Of course a combination could be right where you have my first theory with the hougyoku used a bridge between them.

It is most likely that his mom was a hollow. As has been speculated many times in the past, it explains why Chad's spiritual powers (influenced/strengthed/awakened/whatever by Ichigo) took on a hollow form.

It also gives meaning to Isshin interrupting Aizen and telling him he talks to much.

It also goes thematically with Ichigo's ever changing understanding of the hollow world and his growing compassion/understanding for them. Frankly I think KT is going with a Spawn theme here, i.e. neither SS nor HM are entirely good or bad, and eventually he is just going to be squatting on Earth as the real world's protector and realm intermediary.


It is unclear whether a special gigai would be necessary though. As for how Grand Fisher killed her if it wasn't because she was in a gigai, its possible she lost her hollow powers after giving birth (the old momma goes inert when she has children mechanics), or maybe it was actually Aizen that killed her (not sure the manga ever really confirmed Grand Fisher killed her, i.e. that Ichigo himself saw it, or just put his belief into "convenient facts" after he woke up).

[fastaslightning]

What I don't understand is why everyone thinks she was a hollow. She is a human, MAYBE a quincy, but basically just a human. The only reason I think she may be a quincy and this is a stretch is she is related to 4-eye's dad in some way. Like she is his sister or something and her being killed so early in life 4-eyes never new.

Here is the reason I don't see Ichigo as shinigami/hollow at birth because he has a human form. How could his mother's DNA be suppressed that easy? Now since every person can become a hollow, and Urahara did exactly what was needed for him to become a hollow (ie sever the chain, and let it eat itself) his human spirit became a hollow.

Now hollows are known to want reitzu and eat it with no abandon. So Ichigo's hollow followed that form. It started weak, but since Ichigo just lets off reitzu he eats it up. Now he is as strong or stronger than most because the shinigami side is very strong as well. This is what leads me to believe that Isshin is RG. 1/2 shinigami and this kid hits reitzu levels 2 times a normal captain. Without the hollow side.

This is a perfect explanation as to why Ichigo's hollow is so damn strong. He is eating/absorbing all the reitzu that Ichigo's untrained shinigami side lets off.

I may be proven wrong, but so far all the criteria has been fulfilled for Ichigo's hollow side to just be a normal human hollow who has a great feeding source.

Chris

[JayR]

Then ask your self why Aizen would give a shit if Ichigo was half quincy.

If he was half hollow, Ho Ho ho. That would explain why his father had to leave the Gotei 13.
Either because they found out and branded him a traitor, or Aizen was on their case and ''wanted to experiment'' or both.

Then tralalala Ishin hooks up with Urahara to sort him some gigai's.


Forgot to put in the mild fact that- Uraharas Gigi's turn Shinigami into Humans remember, it could easily do the same for an arancar. Maybe even a Vasto Lorde, though we dont know much about them :)

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-188-page-8.html

Urahara and Ishin not talked for ages yet they knew the Vizard would contact Ichigo eventualy. Why would they be interetsted if Ichigo was a sissy Quincy?

[Matt]

Then ask your self why Aizen would give a shit if Ichigo was half quincy.

If he was half hollow, Ho Ho ho. That would explain why his father had to leave the Gotei 13.
Either because they found out and branded him a traitor, or Aizen was on their case and ''wanted to experiment'' or both.

Then tralalala Ishin hooks up with Urahara to sort him some gigai's.


Forgot to put in the mild fact that- Uraharas Gigi's turn Shinigami into Humans remember, it could easily do the same for an arancar. Maybe even a Vasto Lorde, though we dont know much about them :)

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-188-page-8.html

Urahara and Ishin not talked for ages yet they knew the Vizard would contact Ichigo eventualy. Why would they be interetsted if Ichigo was a sissy Quincy?

Sissy Quincy? Imagine Ichigo being able to use spirit particles around him to make his attacks/speed whatever, increased even strong/faster than it is already? Basically another power increase for Ichigo, having the powers of the 3 different races within his body? His Getsuga Tensho is looking a lot stronger when he can get his power from his shinigami side, hollow side, and any spirit particiles around him.

But even with that, I doubt he's a quincy lol, it seems more fitting for his mother to be a VL.

[uclamordsith]

Its unknown what would happen to a regular shinigami because shinji and company were hollowified when it was used on them.

Per Tousen... you becom an ugly-ass fruitfly

[Will of D]

Sissy Quincy? Imagine Ichigo being able to use spirit particles around him to make his attacks/speed whatever, increased even strong/faster than it is already? Basically another power increase for Ichigo, having the powers of the 3 different races within his body? His Getsuga Tensho is looking a lot stronger when he can get his power from his shinigami side, hollow side, and any spirit particiles around him.

But even with that, I doubt he's a quincy lol, it seems more fitting for his mother to be a VL.

I was reading on a different forum the other day right after the new chapter came out and someone brought up an interesting point about Masaki being a Quincy. If Ichigo were half quincy then the fact that his power grows so rapidly is that he may be absorbing spirit particles constantly and thus his rapid development and bursts of immense power through out the series. And lastly his Getsuga Tensho is a very familiar blue. Anyway thought it was interesting.

[Candeggina]

I think chads powers are hollow like cuz of he got them from ichigo and hes half hollow perhaps, orihime is a mixture of quincy,shinigami,and hollow.

[KozueMizuki]

Then ask your self why Aizen would give a shit if Ichigo was half quincy.

If he was half hollow, Ho Ho ho. That would explain why his father had to leave the Gotei 13.
Either because they found out and branded him a traitor, or Aizen was on their case and ''wanted to experiment'' or both.

Then tralalala Ishin hooks up with Urahara to sort him some gigai's.


Forgot to put in the mild fact that- Uraharas Gigi's turn Shinigami into Humans remember, it could easily do the same for an arancar. Maybe even a Vasto Lorde, though we dont know much about them :)

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-188-page-8.html

Urahara and Ishin not talked for ages yet they knew the Vizard would contact Ichigo eventualy. Why would they be interetsted if Ichigo was a sissy Quincy?
In my opinion Ishida's dad is far from being a sissy. Ishida has a lot tolearn and he can in no way grown as fast as Ichigo. If Ichigos mom was a "Quincy" Aizen would no doubt being watch over her and all of SS would have kept tabs on her because their powers were banned. Then Aizen would know all about ichigo and everything he was doing in life. . just my opinion.

[MMZ]

I think chads powers are hollow like cuz of he got them from ichigo and hes half hollow perhaps, orihime is a mixture of quincy,shinigami,and hollow.

No, just no. No one got any powers from Ichigo... ever...

In my opinion Ishida's dad is far from being a sissy. Ishida has a lot tolearn and he can in no way grown as fast as Ichigo. If Ichigos mom was a "Quincy" Aizen would no doubt being watch over her and all of SS would have kept tabs on her because their powers were banned. Then Aizen would know all about ichigo and everything he was doing in life. . just my opinion.

SS never kept tabs on Ishida or his Dad, so why would they watch Ichi's Mom?
That aside, and like mentioned before Aizen wouldn't care much about anything Quincy. His experiment is that of crossing shinigami and hollows and he said Ichigo was the best material for it. If his parents were shinigami and hollow, then that'd be the best you can get for it.

[Arty]

I don't know why people like the shattered shaft theory so much. It would be the worst thing that Kubo could possibly do with his story. 300+ chapters based on the full powered Hougyoku being necessary for hollowification, and it turns out that the Shattered Shaft method > Hougyoku. It would be horribly disappointing and it would completely separate Ichigo's hollow origin's from the rest of his story(The rest of his story being the events that occured with his mom and dad.)

The SS method isn't the easiest though.
First of all, it's impossible for Shinigami to use this method, so human souls would have to have Shinigami powers to go through this method, and even then it's very risky.

[kenpachithebeast]

No, just no. No one got any powers from Ichigo... ever...



SS never kept tabs on Ishida or his Dad, so why would they watch Ichi's Mom?
That aside, and like mentioned before Aizen wouldn't care much about anything Quincy. His experiment is that of crossing shinigami and hollows and he said Ichigo was the best material for it. If his parents were shinigami and hollow, then that'd be the best you can get for it.

errrr, back up, son. manga confirms being close to ichigo allows powers to manifest themselves in others. read it again, come back, and congratulate me for making you see the reality.