Bleach Episode 244

[VanquishedAngel]

Originally Posted by btill9000

This is a common mistake. When Ichigo fought Kenpachi he had a power that he he won't be able to use again. In that fight he was fighting along with his Zanpakutou, because he hadn't made it submit yet.

In his fight with Kenpachi, Zangetsu fortified Ichigo's Reiatsu by adding his own. You should realize that, so far, that has been a one time event. At that moment, Ichigo's Reiatsu was bigger than it has been since. In Bankai, Zangetsu's gives Ichigo the power of speed and a stronger Getsuga, not huge Reiatsu.

People should understand this. It would stop a lot of the ranting about inconsistency on the part of KT. It's been very clear that Ichigo's survival against Kenpachi was a victory in and of itself but one can hardly say that he defeated Ichigo.

[helleboros]

Originally Posted by btill9000

This is a common mistake. When Ichigo fought Kenpachi he had a power that he he won't be able to use again. In that fight he was fighting along with his Zanpakutou, because he hadn't made it submit yet.

In his fight with Kenpachi, Zangetsu fortified Ichigo's Reiatsu by adding his own. You should realize that, so far, that has been a one time event. At that moment, Ichigo's Reiatsu was bigger than it has been since. In Bankai, Zangetsu's gives Ichigo the power of speed and a stronger Getsuga, not huge Reiatsu.

That's interesting. I haven't heard that before. Can you point me at any references for it?

I have to say it seems kinda counter-intuitive. I had thought that the whole point of learning your zanpakutou's name and getting to know it was that you would start to work together. When a shinigami and his zanpakutou know each other and trust each other, their power together is greater than the sum of their individual powers. Kenpachi, of course, failed because his arrogance made him deaf to the voice of his zanpakutou. Ichigo won because he was willing to work hand-in-hand with Zangetsu.

It seems a little odd that a shinigami would have less power once they started working with their zanpakutou, as opposed to having the zanpakutou acting as a separate, independent entity.

[Afrojack]

The simple way of saying it is that in the Kenpachi fight, Zangetu gave Ichigo the full measure of his powers, which is something that Ichigo has not been able to attain since, even in bankai, because in order to use Zangetsu's full power, he'd have to master Zangetsu. It's obvious that he's nowhere near doing that as of yet.

[helleboros]

Originally Posted by Afrojack

The simple way of saying it is that in the Kenpachi fight, Zangetu gave Ichigo the full measure of his powers, which is something that Ichigo has not been able to attain since, even in bankai, because in order to use Zangetsu's full power, he'd have to master Zangetsu. It's obvious that he's nowhere near doing that as of yet.

Ahh. I see. So you're suggesting that a shinigami and his zanpakutou do not necessarily grow together in power, and that a zanpakutou can be at full strength independently of its shinigami.

Well, I see what you're saying, and I certainly agree that Ichigo is the least skilled of any shinigami we've seen to date. I just don't know that I agree with the notion as a whole. It seems strange that Zangetsu would lend his full strength to Ichigo at a time when Ichigo had barely managed to manifest shikai, but that he would not lend his full strength to Ichigo when Ichigo had put his life on the line and fought relentlessly over the course of 2 to 3 days to win Zangetsu's submission.

It kinda subverts the entire point of submission if the one who submits does not actually ... er ... submit.

If this is true though, it makes me wonder whether this is a side-effect of Urahara's device. Arguably, shinigami who achieve bankai in the normal course of training win a willing submission from their zanpakutou. By contrast, shinigami who achieve bankai via Urahara's device have actually forced submission on their zanpakutou. In the former case, the zanpakutou willingly supports and works to further all its shinigami's efforts. In the latter case, one might say that the zanpakutou's participation is grudging at best.

If this is the case, then Urahara has had at least a century since his own use of the device in which to prove his worth to Benihime and turn that grudging submission into a willing one. Ichigo on the other hand is still flying by the seat of his pants.

I think it's all speculation at the moment though. I don't think there's anything in canon so far to support the notion that Ichigo was stronger in his fight against Kenpachi than he was at any other point in the SS arc.

[btill9000]

Originally Posted by helleboros

That's interesting. I haven't heard that before. Can you point me at any references for it?

I have to say it seems kinda counter-intuitive. I had thought that the whole point of learning your zanpakutou's name and getting to know it was that you would start to work together. When a shinigami and his zanpakutou know each other and trust each other, their power together is greater than the sum of their individual powers. Kenpachi, of course, failed because his arrogance made him deaf to the voice of his zanpakutou. Ichigo won because he was willing to work hand-in-hand with Zangetsu.

It seems a little odd that a shinigami would have less power once they started working with their zanpakutou, as opposed to having the zanpakutou acting as a separate, independent entity.

It may seem odd, but that is how it works. To obtain Bankai a shinigami must make their Zanpakutou submit. When Ichigo manifests Zangetsu in Bankai, it manifests in a condensed form that grants him speed and also stronger Getsugas. However, during the Kenpachi fight Zangetsu simply added his raw Reiatsu in with Ichigo's. If he were using Bankai he would've been trying to Speed Blitz Kenpachi, not face him down in a full out Reiatsu war.

Okay here are some links.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/113/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/113/11/

[helleboros]

Originally Posted by btill9000

It may seem odd, but that is how it works. To obtain Bankai a shinigami must make their Zanpakutou submit. When Ichigo manifests Zangetsu in Bankai, it manifests in a condensed form that grants him speed and also stronger Getsugas. However, during the Kenpachi fight Zangetsu simply added his raw Reiatsu in with Ichigo's. If he were using Bankai he would've been trying to Speed Blitz Kenpachi, not face him down in a full out Reiatsu war.

Okay here are some links.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/113/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/113/11/

Mmmm ... I dunno. We already know that Ichigo and Zangetsu worked together to defeat Kenpachi. In my opinion, it's exactly what every shinigami *other* than Kenpachi does (or at least what they strive toward doing).

In any case, the fact that Ichigo's bankai grants him greater speed and stronger attacks does not mean that he is not stronger overall as a result of achieving bankai. Plus, consider the scene where he makes his first attempt to save Rukia (the bridge scene, after the Kenpachi confrontation but before his bankai training).

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/116/42/

It appears that his improved relationship with Zangetsu has increased his reiatsu to such levels that he is now considered to be captain level, where before he was not. It would seem quite illogical if the same power-up was not observed as a result of the deeper bond required to achieve bankai.

And with respect to the different ways in which he fought Kenpachi and Byakuya, lets face it, Ichigo isn't exactly a genius when it comes to battle tactics. He fights his opponent the way his opponent fights him. Ikkaku combines physical strength with physical agility. Renji and Kenpachi are brute force fighters. Byakuya's fighting style is based on speed. Against each, Ichigo fought on the playing field dictated by his opponent.

I really don't think we can point at the reiatsu battle and then the speed battle and say that the speed battle is an indication that he is no longer capable of the reiatsu battle.

[btill9000]

Originally Posted by helleboros

I really don't think we can point at the reiatsu battle and then the speed battle and say that the speed battle is an indication that he is no longer capable of the reiatsu battle.

No that isn't what I am saying. I am saying that his Reiatsu hasn't been that high since then. Reason being, Zangetsu poured his power directly into Ichigo's reiatsu. Now, Zangetsu's power represent a speed boost in the form of condensed reiatsu.

[helleboros]

Originally Posted by btill9000

No that isn't what I am saying. I am saying that his Reiatsu hasn't been that high since then. Reason being, Zangetsu poured his power directly into Ichigo's reiatsu. Now, Zangetsu's power represent a speed boost in the form of condensed reiatsu.

Ah, I see ... I think.

I dunno. I think that's narrowing the concept of reiatsu more than is absolutely necessary. From my point of view, reiatsu is simply raw power. The level of a shinigami's reiatsu is a measure of his spiritual strength, and the depth of a shinigami's relationship with his zanpakutou has a direct impact on that level. A shinigami who has achieved shikai has more available reiatsu than he did when he did not know his zanpakutou's name. Similarly, a shinigami who has achieved bankai is stronger than when he could only wield his zanpakutou in shikai. The more in tune a shinigami becomes with his zanpakutou, the stronger he'll get (e.g., Ichigo being considered captain-level after his bonding session with Zangetsu mid-fight with Kenpachi).

Anyway, I think we're approaching this concept from different points, so we might just have to agree to disagree on this one :). Thanks for clarifying your point though :).