Kenpachi vs Grimmjow

[-MaNi-]

Originally Posted by Levy

He never speedblitzed ichigo, he overpowered him. He didn't go in, did a couple shot and went back before ichigo could do something. He went in, hit ichigo and sent him flying, while ichigo was flying grimmjow kept on the pressure. No speedblitz there imo.

How is that overpowering him? Overpowering is something zaraki could be used for. Beating down an opponents attacks, or flooding them with onslaughts. Not sending the person flying, and sonido'ing to keep up the combo. Speedblitzing is being considerably faster than the opponent. So for example, soi fon could speed blitz say mayuri. She'd send him to the air, and follow it up with a few attacks. She's too fast for him in those brief moments of time. Thats speedblitzing...
Ichigo was unable to do anything. He could see, but couldn't react. thats speedblitzing. If he was able to react, then it wouldn't be speedblitzing since ichigo could keep up. Would fall more into the overpowering category.

Originally Posted by Levy

again bad exemples. No speedblitz there. Especially not in chap 284. He went pass ichigo which obviously Ichigo didn't expect since Grimmjow has been fighting close range all the time or mostly, unless you think running pass someone is speedblitzing now. He didn't even get a free shot at ichigo with that so called speedblitz.

Again.. speedblitzing is exactly that. He didn't expect it, because he COULDN'T expect it. You cant remain fixed in your way of thinking. Just because grimmjow had been supposedly fighting close range most of the time, doesn't mean he wont change his tactics. He had never seen grimmjows release, so he doesn't know what to expect. He speedblitzed behind him to launch his desgarron attack. That was the purpose of it.

Originally Posted by Levy

Still, he never dodge his strikes. VBI moves fast with shunpo, doesn't mean his strikes are super fast, obviously they're not slow but I don't think ichigo's swing speed in his fight vs grimmjow is so freaking better than zaraki's vs Noitora that grimmjow will just evade all the blows like you guys make it out to be.

Yes it is... the faster you are, the quicker you attack.. isn't that common sense? I dont know if you watch boxing but, perfect example would be david hayes V Nikolai valuev. Fast, smaller fighter V large, strong but slow fighter. Pretty much grimmjow V kenpachi. I doubt grimm will evade all his attacks, but for the most part he'll evade or at least react in time to block.

Originally Posted by Levy

Weak and not that fast. As you said, Ichigo dodged em and was able to realized Orihime was behind him and he still has the time to do and absorb the shot for her, which btw didn't really affect Ichigo much.

Also, since went is breaking building a good comparison to the force of an attack, building is bleach go down faster than card castle with a hurricane nearby.

1) Its called a high display of speed. Grimm has shown it several times, and since they are both quite similar in terms of speed, then its no wonder ichigo can use max speed if he absolutely has to

2) And yeah, they're not that fast. VBI is fast. So its not surprising he went in front of it and took the hit

Originally Posted by Levy

So I guess VBI is slow since he didn't move outta of the way from any cero in any fight (as far as i remember) compare to zaraki who dodged Yammy's.
Remember he was really close to melee range vs Noitora's cero as he had just cut him.

Grimm only used one cero and that was GRC aimed at inoue. Not ichigo. He jumped in front of it and took the GRC so inoue wouldn't get hurt. Cero's are nothing special nowadays... Stark shot 100's of them, and the captains just seemed to dodge them effortlessly. They're generally slow as been stated before.
Zaraki wasn't even going to dodge nnoitra's cero. I dont ever see zaraki running from an attack. He always takes it head on, and tanks it

[Lorelei_Alyssa]

I definately think that Kenpachi would own all over Grimmjow, especially if it came to levels of power rather than sheer strength/ability. There was that bit at the beginning of Bleach where Hanataro and Ganju (I think it was either Ganju or Rukia anyway) were forced to their knees by Byakuya's reiatsu.

So by that logic if Kenpachi removed his eyepatch in a fight with Grimmjow then shouldn't our favourite kitty be at least slowed down a little due to the sheer pressure radiating off of Kenpachi?

Also, not sure if this point has already been made.

[CakeSpoon]

Originally Posted by Lorelei_Alyssa

I definately think that Kenpachi would own all over Grimmjow, especially if it came to levels of power rather than sheer strength/ability. There was that bit at the beginning of Bleach where Hanataro and Ganju (I think it was either Ganju or Rukia anyway) were forced to their knees by Byakuya's reiatsu.

So by that logic if Kenpachi removed his eyepatch in a fight with Grimmjow then shouldn't our favourite kitty be at least slowed down a little due to the sheer pressure radiating off of Kenpachi?

Also, not sure if this point has already been made.

No. Zaraki can floor weak people like Ganju & Hanatarou. Grimmjow is stronger than Bankai Ichigo. He's not going to be affected by Zaraki's reiatsu.

Edit: Beat you MaNi lol.

[-MaNi-]

Not really.. nnoitra wasnt fazed one bit when kenpachi took off the eye patch.. The thing is, that only applies when the opponent is ALOT stronger than you. Kenpachi isn't like yammamoto to grimmjow, so none of that will happen really. It myt take him by shock for the first few seconds, but after that he'll be completely fine

[Lorelei_Alyssa]

Not really.. nnoitra wasnt fazed one bit when kenpachi took off the eye patch.. The thing is, that only applies when the opponent is ALOT stronger than you. Kenpachi isn't like yammamoto to grimmjow, so none of that will happen really. It myt take him by shock for the first few seconds, but after that he'll be completely fine

True, but what if those few seconds of shock are all it takes for Kenpachi to grab hold of Grimmjow and lay into him?

[CakeSpoon]

I'm not sure if Mani meant it like that, but if he did I'll disagree. Shikai Ichigo, once he stopped being so whiny, was generally unaffected. Grimm is stronger than Bankai Ichigo, & his reiatsu is up there with Zaraki's. He would feel no discomfort.

[Levy]

Originally Posted by -MaNi-

How is that overpowering him? Overpowering is something zaraki could be used for. Beating down an opponents attacks, or flooding them with onslaughts. Not sending the person flying, and sonido'ing to keep up the combo. Speedblitzing is being considerably faster than the opponent. So for example, soi fon could speed blitz say mayuri. She'd send him to the air, and follow it up with a few attacks. She's too fast for him in those brief moments of time. Thats speedblitzing...
Ichigo was unable to do anything. He could see, but couldn't react. thats speedblitzing. If he was able to react, then it wouldn't be speedblitzing since ichigo could keep up. Would fall more into the overpowering category.

You hit someone real hard, sent them flying, obviously because you sent them flying they can't just stop moving and get in a defensive position and since sonido and shunpo is faster than someone flying you get what you saw there. That is not speedblitzing someone. Doesn't have to do with someone being faster than you, has to do with someone that sent you flying.

If your exemple is one of speedblitz, why the hell didn't he just keep on speedblizting ichigo for the rest of the fight? Because he wasn't faster than him, he overpowered ichigo in the first few strikes and that's all.

Originally Posted by -MaNi-

Again.. speedblitzing is exactly that. He didn't expect it, because he COULDN'T expect it. You cant remain fixed in your way of thinking. Just because grimmjow had been supposedly fighting close range most of the time, doesn't mean he wont change his tactics. He had never seen grimmjows release, so he doesn't know what to expect. He speedblitzed behind him to launch his desgarron attack. That was the purpose of it.

Of course he couldn't expect it, who expect your melee opponent to go 100m behind you to lunch and attack and you just turn around and block it. You guys are throwing the word speedblitz around way too much. Running behind someone does not mean speedblitz.

You do realized changing tactics means element of suprise means that even if your slower you can catch your opponent off guard and that has nothing to do with speedblitzing someone. When you speedblitz someone, you're so freaking fast that even if they know all the moves your gonna make it makes no difference because you'll be to fast for 'em. This never happened in the grimmjow vs VBI fight.

Originally Posted by -MaNi-

Yes it is... the faster you are, the quicker you attack.. isn't that common sense? I dont know if you watch boxing but, perfect example would be david hayes V Nikolai valuev. Fast, smaller fighter V large, strong but slow fighter. Pretty much grimmjow V kenpachi. I doubt grimm will evade all his attacks, but for the most part he'll evade or at least react in time to block.

Time to get those top sprint runner to fight the top fighter of the world as they would obviously speedblitz them with your trend of though.

Blocking won't be enough at all to stop a kendo slash, it went threw noitorra and iirc 4 of his weapons.

Originally Posted by -MaNi-

1) Its called a high display of speed. Grimm has shown it several times, and since they are both quite similar in terms of speed, then its no wonder ichigo can use max speed if he absolutely has to

2) And yeah, they're not that fast. VBI is fast. So its not surprising he went in front of it and took the hit

Good thing you agreed they're not that fast and since you didn't refute that they were weak I'm gonna say you agree on that aswell. So, they're useless to spam long range vs kenpachi

Originally Posted by -MaNi-

Grimm only used one cero and that was GRC aimed at inoue. Not ichigo. He jumped in front of it and took the GRC so inoue wouldn't get hurt. Cero's are nothing special nowadays... Stark shot 100's of them, and the captains just seemed to dodge them effortlessly. They're generally slow as been stated before.
Zaraki wasn't even going to dodge nnoitra's cero. I dont ever see zaraki running from an attack. He always takes it head on, and tanks it

The GRC was aimed at both of 'em.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...0-page-19.html

That way he was sure that ichigo wouldn't dodge it. So no he didn't get in front of it. Does it mean he could've dodge it? Not really, grimmjow just didn't take the chance that he could and why should he.

The captains (iirc only ukitake and shunsui had to dodge cero) dodged starks cero because they're freaking fast. I wouldn't compare them to Ichigo's speed. Also iirc (didn't reread the stark vs shunsui fight) all the cero they had to dodge weren't at real close range.

bold part not always :P hehe : http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...8-page-13.html

[-MaNi-]

Originally Posted by Levy

You hit someone real hard, sent them flying, obviously because you sent them flying they can't just stop moving and get in a defensive position and since sonido and shunpo is faster than someone flying you get what you saw there. That is not speedblitzing someone. Doesn't have to do with someone being faster than you, has to do with someone that sent you flying.

If your exemple is one of speedblitz, why the hell didn't he just keep on speedblizting ichigo for the rest of the fight? Because he wasn't faster than him, he overpowered ichigo in the first few strikes and that's all.

The reason he didn't keep on the whole attack was because they are both quite equal in terms of speed. I think i may have not wrote it the way i intended to but, what im trying to get at is that grimmjow is at the very least on equal footing with VBI. Bankai ichigo can outpace zaraki.. So VBI would be on the verge of speedblitzing kenpachi. Since grimm is about equal with VBI on speed, then he can apply to that too

Originally Posted by Levy

Of course he couldn't expect it, who expect your melee opponent to go 100m behind you to lunch and attack and you just turn around and block it. You guys are throwing the word speedblitz around way too much. Running behind someone does not mean speedblitz.

Shunsui didn't expect stark to shoot off a instant cero in close range, but he still reacted and dodged it... Its not expecting, but whether you can react to it. Thats the difference between being outpaced or not
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/359/01/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/359/02/

[quote=Levy;2001670]You do realized changing tactics means element of suprise means that even if your slower you can catch your opponent off guard and that has nothing to do with speedblitzing someone. When you speedblitz someone, you're so freaking fast that even if they know all the moves your gonna make it makes no difference because you'll be to fast for 'em. This never happened in the grimmjow vs VBI fight.

This never happened in their fight because they were roughly the same speed. During that fight they both showed moments when they outclassed the other in speed, but more often than not they were on par. Ichigo JUST about won.

Originally Posted by Levy

Time to get those top sprint runner to fight the top fighter of the world as they would obviously speedblitz them with your trend of though.

Blocking won't be enough at all to stop a kendo slash, it went threw noitorra and iirc 4 of his weapons.

But zaraki isnt the top fighter of the world, and neither is grimm the fastest. But he's alot faster than zaraki. AND ALL I'M SAYING IN THIS THREAD IS THAT: its not as simple as kenpachi kendo slashing grimmjow if he cant catch him!! The majority of the people here seem to think that if kenpachi can kendo grimm, he's finished.. but can he actually get him? I doubt that
And like i've mentioned, nnoitra ran straight into his kendo. It was quite obvious zaraki was using his strongest attack, yet he still ran straight into it. Its hardly a feat if your opponents jumps straight into your strongest attack and loses

Originally Posted by Levy

Good thing you agreed they're not that fast and since you didn't refute that they were weak I'm gonna say you agree on that aswell. So, they're useless to spam long range vs kenpachi

Not really.. they may not be that fast, but thats because VBI is quite faster than them. Zaraki, yet again has not shown any impressive speed. He doesn't even shunpo, just side steps.. Is that really going to be enough for these projectiles that can change course mid air?? They're not exactly strong, but still pack a punch. Zaraki wont be unharmed

Originally Posted by Levy

The GRC was aimed at both of 'em.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...0-page-19.html

That way he was sure that ichigo wouldn't dodge it. So no he didn't get in front of it. Does it mean he could've dodge it? Not really, grimmjow just didn't take the chance that he could and why should he.

Im pretty sure it was aimed at inoue, but the view point is from ichigo. Otherwise why would ichigo be shouting at grimmjow to stop? He has no reason to stop if he's going to attack ichigo, but since he wanted ichigo to fight at full power, he aimed it at inoue. She was the bait, ichigo reacted

Originally Posted by Levy

The captains (iirc only ukitake and shunsui had to dodge cero) dodged starks cero because they're freaking fast. I wouldn't compare them to Ichigo's speed. Also iirc (didn't reread the stark vs shunsui fight) all the cero they had to dodge weren't at real close range.

bold part not always :P hehe : http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...8-page-13.html

Starks cero's are fast really... cero's aren't that fast, but close range they can be a problem unless you have good speed, which shunsui does (As shown in the link at the top of this post). Shunsui did have to dodge a close range cero

He merely side stepped though. Every other time he stands there and tries to tank attacks (tousen + komamaru), (ichigo powered up), (nnoitra attacking with six arms) etc