Byakuya & Kenpachi VS Ulquiorra & Yammy

[asdfj]

Originally Posted by laicos

ONE
yeah like i said, what ishida said was to amplify the point of why top 4 are well above the rest and shouldn't resurrect inside the dorm. was not meant to be compared like that. unless he also said zero espada has less than 4 and that's why he isn't impressed with zero, did i miss that part?
it impressed ishida, so it should impress the captains too? captains are powerful people themselves, of course they weren't surprised by the top 3's reiatsu.

Spoiler:

As I said "destructive" in term of power. Aizen zanpakuto ability isn't "destructive" per se, but rather allows Aizen to control the five senses of the opponent- a nasty ability. And once Ulquiorra get caught in hypnosis, he isn't touching the real Aizen but illusions.
Power is not everything, ability and skill matters as well.
Eldorad not only are not even comparable in AOE with LDR but they are dissipated (meaning less pressure in the explosions of fire) while LDR focus a much higher output of energy in the form of a small lance- and the power behind the blast of that lance is ridicolous. May I remind you that Las Noches is very big? A person would need three days of walk just to reach from one gate to the closer one as pointed by Nel. The pressure of the LDR explosion it's massive, as its mere shockwave can destroy concrete towers without effort from distance.

TWO
yeah, that's my point, you can't measure a fighter's power by how big of an explosion he can cause, in bleach. if bigger explosion means stronger fighter then edrad is stronger than most espada and ulquiorra should be aizen's master. stop bring up how big of an explosion the lance can cause.


THREE
not needed, that implies it had to be that level of power to take him on, which is not true because as soon as zangetsu stepped in he mopped the floor with SE ulquiorra. also, for all we know vizard ichigo was not that powerful at all.

for example, let's say vizard ichigo is a 10 and zangetsu is 100: 10 loses to SE, but 100 mopped the floor with SE. so you can't say 100 is what required to take on SE. it could be a 20 is all it takes. of course this is just my example, not meant to be taken seriously. just want to make a point.


FOUR
really? where does it say that? we actually don't know how aizen measured the espada's power. did he ask them to line up and resurrect? not to mention it is hard to miss the pressure causes by SE resurrection.
SE is just a special ability, like how starrk is able to split into 2 beings and nnoitra is to able to grow extra arms. ulquiorra's fans are reading too much into it.

1) A top 4 espada can destroy Las Noches in released state. So? What Ishida was speaking off, it was his Segunda Etapa release reiatsu, which dramatically changed the reiatsu nature itself of Ulquiorra, as you can read here.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-802-10...apter-348.html
Ishida felt the reiatsu of some captains of Gotei and arrancars like released yammy mind you, he is keen at sensing reiatsu and Ishida is low captain level at least. But he was never as stunned as this, that reiatsu was superior to anything he felt, including Gin and Yammy released which is ranked 0 (highest ranked reiatsu of espadas).

2)
While I agree AOE and power not always go hand to hand (the pressure of the attack matters) look here at LDR.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-805-11...apter-351.html
The pressure of the attack is clearly enormous, as you can see he can tore tower of concret with its mere shockwave and the explosion not simply pulverized an area as big as Las Noches at least, but he also lifted sand at least to an height of twice-three times Las Noches. Las Noches is very big as pointed by Nel comment on the distance between the gates. He can fire it one after the another without effort. LDR can also be used as a mid range weapon.
Ulquiorra defeating Aizen? Not really..
Ulquiorra is likely under absolute hypnosis, meaning he would not hit Aizen with LDR. And even without hypnosis, his aim is not that good (he missed a immobile target) so Aizen would not get hitted. If he get hitted by the explosion, then Aizen would at least be mid to badly injured by LDR (I doubt he can kill Aizen with LDR, as Yamamoto who is not much stronger than Aizen can survive badly injured a much stronger attack). He isn't crushing LDR barehanded like Scarmask Ichigo though, if he try that he would burn and possibly lose his hand.
While with illusions, Aizen can easily avoid any damage to his person in the first place and surprise R2 Ulquiorra with a fully enchanted hado 90 enveloping him.

3) Vizard Ichigo stood no chance against R1 Ulquiorra, he released Segunda Etapa skyrocketing his power and it was used only to make Ichigo despair and make him give up on fighting. May I remind you that in HM arc after he beaten his "inner hollow" which nerfed him and gained the vizard mask, he regained "old man Zangetsu" as his main source of power? Which means that Ichigo was no longer nerfed. HM Vizard bankai ichigo >>> HM bankai ichigo>= SS bankai ichigo which could have cutted byakuya throat at the beggining of the bankai fight. R1 Ulquiorra could already crush an opponent much stronger than SS bankai ichigo even in R1.
Ichigo winned against Ulquiorra SE only after he released his Scarmask godmode.

4) Kubo confirmed in the databook that espada are ranked on reiatsu levels. Aizen didn't know or saw his Segunda Etapa. Hard to feel his reiatsu presence if he didn't use anywhere near Aizen... So Aizen didn't feel his top reiatsu, the Segunda Etapa therefore couldn't be taken in account in the ranking and he couldn't rank him accordingly to it. Kubo portrayed him as having more reiatsu than Yammy released, hence he should likely be zero espada.
And this comes from someone who is not a fan of Ulquiorra, mind you.

[laicos]

Spoiler:

A top 4 espada can destroy Las Noches in released state. So? What Ishida was speaking off, it was his Segunda Etapa release reiatsu, which dramatically changed the reiatsu nature itself of Ulquiorra, as you can read here.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-802-10...apter-348.html
Ishida felt the reiatsu of some captains of Gotei and arrancars like released yammy mind you, he is keen at sensing reiatsu and Ishida is low captain level at least. But he was never as stunned as this, that reiatsu was superior to anything he felt, including Gin and Yammy released which is ranked 0 (highest ranked reiatsu of espadas).

again, it wasn't a comparison. okay, i get it ishida was impressed with ulquiorra's reiatsu, but how is it compared to the reiatsu he felt from other people and how many people unleashed full force in front of him before? mayuri was one, but by that time he was in super quincy mode. yammy, second form was off screen, so we don't know what happened and none of the top 3 resurrected in front of him. how do you make a comparison? reading too much into it.

Spoiler:

While I agree AOE and power not always go hand to hand (the pressure of the attack matters) look here at LDR.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-805-11...apter-351.html
The pressure of the attack is clearly enormous, as you can see he can tore tower of concret with its mere shockwave and the explosion not simply pulverized an area as big as Las Noches at least, but he also lifted sand at least to an height of twice-three times Las Noches. Las Noches is very big as pointed by Nel comment on the distance between the gates. He can fire it one after the another without effort. LDR can also be used as a mid range weapon.
Ulquiorra defeating Aizen? Not really..
Ulquiorra is likely under absolute hypnosis, meaning he would not hit Aizen with LDR. And even without hypnosis, his aim is not that good (he missed a immobile target) so Aizen would not get hitted. If he get hitted by the explosion, then Aizen would at least be mid to badly injured by LDR (I doubt he can kill Aizen with LDR, as Yamamoto who is not much stronger than Aizen can survive badly injured a much stronger attack). He isn't crushing LDR barehanded like Scarmask Ichigo though, if he try that he would burn and possibly lose his hand.
While with illusions, Aizen can easily avoid any damage to his person in the first place and surprise R2 Ulquiorra with a fully enchanted hado 90 enveloping him.

if you agreed then why do you keep bringing how big of an explosion the lance caused up. i know how aizen would beat ulquiorra, that's the point. bigger explosion doesn't equal to superiority.

Vizard Ichigo stood no chance against R1 Ulquiorra, he released Segunda Etapa skyrocketing his power and it was used only to make Ichigo despair and make him give up on fighting.

how much power he increased from 1st etapa to 2nd etapa is unknown, because he beat ichigo in 1st, but zangetsu mopped the floor with his 2nd. impossible to gauge that.

Spoiler:

May I remind you that in HM arc after he beaten his "inner hollow" which nerfed him and gained the vizard mask, he regained "old man Zangetsu" as his main source of power? Which means that Ichigo was no longer nerfed. HM Vizard bankai ichigo >>> HM bankai ichigo>= SS bankai ichigo which could have cutted byakuya throat at the beggining of the bankai fight. R1 Ulquiorra could already crush an opponent much stronger than SS bankai ichigo even in R1.
Ichigo winned against Ulquiorra SE only after he released his Scarmask godmode.

ichigo successfully suppressed the "white" zangetsu, but never accepted him. which means his relationship with zangetsu was bad at that time. it wasn't until after his training with isshin that he regained zangetsu's support. remember what zangetsu said about bad relationship between zanpakutou and shinigami? remember how weak he was when he fought against kenpachi, before he gained zangetsu support? so for all we know, vizard ichigo was extremely weak because of his relationship with zangetsu. "Vizard bankai ichigo >>> HM bankai ichigo>= SS bankai ichigo" if that were true, then vizard b ichigo >= 6th espada >>> SS b ichigo > shikai ichigo >= kenpachi > 5th espada > 6th espada, does that make sense?

Spoiler:

Kubo confirmed in the databook that espada are ranked on reiatsu levels. Aizen didn't know or saw his Segunda Etapa. Hard to feel his reiatsu presence if he didn't use anywhere near Aizen... So Aizen didn't feel his top reiatsu, the Segunda Etapa therefore couldn't be taken in account in the ranking and he couldn't rank him accordingly to it. Kubo portrayed him as having more reiatsu than Yammy released, hence he should likely be zero espada.

i know what they were ranked by, what i asked was how did aizen measure each and everyone's reiatsu. did he have a score board and they all lined up and resurrected in front of him? or he could sense power deep within, like how ulquiorra sensed ichigo's dormant power that is stronger than his own? we don't know. also, again, it is hard to miss the pressure SE unleashes.

[Bewiseorwise]

Originally Posted by asdfj

I think if Ulquiorra showed his second release to Aizen (meaning Aizen could rank him at his best) he would get a far higher rank in the espada.

Possibly zero espada material:
Ishida felt both Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra and released Yammy reiatsu (from distance), and he is very adept to sensing reiatsu.
He was completely stunned by Ulquiorra reiatsu, to the point of comparing it to an heavy ocean, but he was not as much surprised by Yammy reiatsu at all.

So Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra has been portrayed to have more reiatsu than released Yammy, and since the espada ranks are based on reiatsu,
Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra > released Yammy means he should get the zero espada rank instead of Yammy.



He also showed the most destructive technique of all the espada, Lanza De Relampago, casually able to bust area at least as big as Las Noches. And it can be spammed, but Ulquiorra aim is not that much great (he needs more practice) The other only notable destructive techniques of the espada are Starrk wolves and Starrk Cero Metralleta.

A godmode version of Ichigo was needed to take R2 Ulquiorra down.

Without HSR, he would obviously be stronger.

What you say does not sound so crazy at all. But I do wonder what Ulquiorra meant with espada choosing between power and regeneration, what would Ulquiorra had gain if he had choose power instead of regeneration.

[skycrapper]

I start to doubt the relevance of this Ulquiorra's-true-rank thing with the Byakuya/Zaraki vs Yammy/Ulquorra fight

Even the fact that this "true rank" topic has been brought up, debated and discussed upon so many times, irks me.

[Hentai_Bad_Guy]

Originally Posted by Bewiseorwise

What you say does not sound so crazy at all. But I do wonder what Ulquiorra meant with espada choosing between power and regeneration, what would Ulquiorra had gain if he had choose power instead of regeneration.

Ulquiorra would be the ultimate villain if he chose power, I could see him dwarfing Gin and Tousen. He'd probably be on equal grounds with Aizen.

[laicos]

Originally Posted by Hentai_Bad_Guy

Ulquiorra would be the ultimate villain if he chose power, I could see him dwarfing Gin and Tousen. He'd probably be on equal grounds with Aizen.

that depends on how well he would fare in a fight against a full-fledged captain as he was and how much power that trade-off could give him. i assume that the trade-off wouldn't give him that much because he preferred to keep the regeneration ability rather than trading it off.

[Bewiseorwise]

Originally Posted by laicos

that depends on how well he would fare in a fight against a full-fledged captain as he was and how much power that trade-off could give him. i assume that the trade-off wouldn't give him that much because he preferred to keep the regeneration ability rather than trading it off.

That may be true as we don't know how much the trade-off would have been

[Sasukemaru]

Ulquiorra and Yammy by a walking mile.

[WHODATDEREWHERE]

you guys forget that byakuya n kenpachi still have 2 beat more strong characters