Bleach Chapter 355 Discussion

[He's a Mentalist]

Originally Posted by Kingkon

Your overestimating Aizens ability a whole deal, he can only make something appear like something else, he can't make you grasp for air down on the ground! He already has enough Reatsu to do that anyway!

Originally Posted by Graziano

Again, Aizen's shikai doesn't work that way. It has limits. 1 of those limits being that he needs an object present in order to cast an illusion.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/176/09/

Note the short black sleeve on the right arm. And note the position of the illusion next to Tousen.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/176/13/

Now note where Gin is next to Tousen.

I know you've already realized this so what's the point? Aizen's shikai obviously has limits. You're trying to make it more god-like than it really it is. And I don't know how many times I've going to have to show you this but...

Aizen: "Complete Hypnosis controls the 5 senses to the point that it can make the target misinterpret another person's(or object) form, shape, mass, feel, and smell to be that of the enemy."

Get it now. The person who is hypnotized misinterprets other objects. Seriously, is it really that hard to understand?

This actually leaves a lot of room for a bankai upgrade. Lose the need for an object, make people feel pain that isn't there.

You both are misinterpreting Aizen's shikai and Pumpkin's post. Aizen's shikai controls the 5 senses and that same shikai can distort the feeling of a persons mass. Mass is a connection of touch which is what we define as gravity and our total weight size. Aizen can distort that to make a person feel weighted down. He can also distort the pain receptors of a beings body with his shikai because that is also another form of feeling which is also another form of touch. Lastly, as pumpkin said, Aizen can make someone see a blinding light which would distort ones vision to see some type of white light which would be initiated by the rooms lighting at the time. That would be connected to the sense of sight. In any case, you have misinterpreted Aizen's shikai and just looked at the whole of it. You have to delve a little deeper to fully understand how it exactly works.

[Graziano]

Originally Posted by He's a Mentalist

You both are misinterpreting Aizen's shikai and Pumpkin's post. Aizen's shikai controls the 5 senses and that same shikai can distort the feeling of a persons mass. Mass is a connection of touch which is what we define as gravity and our total weight size. Aizen can distort that to make a person feel weighted down. He can also distort the pain receptors of a beings body with his shikai because that is also another form of feeling which is also another form of touch. Lastly, as pumpkin said, Aizen can make someone see a blinding light which would distort ones vision to see some type of white light which would be initiated by the rooms lighting at the time. That would be connected to the sense of sight. In any case, you have misinterpreted Aizen's shikai and just looked at the whole of it. You have to delve a little deeper to fully understand how it exactly works.

Not Exactly.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/171/12/

Aizen: "You could make a dragon out of a fly"

That's what Aizen means by mass. Something as small as a fly can appear to be something as large as a dragon. He makes the person misinterpret the mass of the fly.

His shikai can't make Grimmjow feel like he's being hit with a shit ton of reiatsu.

[VanquishedAngel]

Originally Posted by Graziano

Not Exactly.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/171/12/

Aizen: "You could make a dragon out of a fly"

That's what Aizen means by mass. Something as small as a fly can appear to be something as large as a dragon. He makes the person misinterpret the mass of the fly.

His shikai can't make Grimmjow feel like he's being hit with a shit ton of reiatsu.

That is a very good observation.

[He's a Mentalist]

That is a fly's shape, not mass. The fly's shape would be the size of a dragon and look as though it is a dragon. If that same fly were to lets say, touch the opponent, that same person would feel as though they've been hit by a ton of bricks.

EDIT: I should have also added in feeling, because that could also be connected with pressure which could stem from the hypnotized opponent brain activity.

[Graziano]

Originally Posted by He's a Mentalist

That is a fly's shape, not mass. The fly's shape would be the size of a dragon and look as though it is a dragon. If that same fly were to lets say, touch the opponent, that same person would feel as though they've been hit by a ton of bricks.

EDIT: I should have also added in feeling, because that could also be connected with pressure which could stem from the hypnotized opponent brain activity.

Webster's Dictionary: Mass: A quantity of matter forming a body of indefinite shape and size.

Indefinite shape, meaning that mass doesn't depend on shape. It's the amount of matter. When Aizen makes a fly appear to be as large as a dragon he increases the appearance of the amount of mass and makes a small object look larger.

edit: also, looking at the definition Aizen gives in the manga shape is stated independent of mass.

Aizen: "...misinterpret another person's form, shape, mass..."

[He's a Mentalist]

Originally Posted by Graziano

Indefinite shape, meaning that mass doesn't depend on shape. It's the amount of matter. When Aizen makes a fly appear to be as large as a dragon he increases the appearance of the amount of mass and makes a small object look larger.

edit: also, looking at the definition Aizen gives in the manga shape is stated independent of mass.

Aizen: "...misinterpret another person's form, shape, mass..."

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/mass.html

You seem to not have a full grasp of what mass is at this time.

[Graziano]

@ He's a Mentalist

Mass = Density X Volume.

Volume:

Spoiler:

Volume is the measure of how much space an object takes up. You can measure volume by putting water into a cylinder then placing an object inside and seeing how much water is displaced. A quarter will displace more water than a dime. Why? Because the size of the quarter is larger than the dime.

Density:

Spoiler:

Density is a way to measure how tightly packed an object is. Denser objects have less empty space in them, they are less holey. The density of an object is often measured in grams per milliliter. So to measure the density of an object you would put it on a balance to measure how many grams it is (the object's mass) then divide that number by the amount of space the object takes up (its volume). The density of something stays the same wherever you take it, on Earth, Mars, or anywhere in the universe.

So, you're saying that Aizen made Grimmjow feel like his own mass had increased, thus making his body feel heavier and dropping him to the ground. Mass = Density X Volume. Grimmjow's volume didn't increase at all, so for that particular illusion to work Aizen would've been manipulating density. Volume stayed same. Density is increased thus mass is increased so Grimmjow feels heavier. Ok, I see what you're saying.

My point: Aizen gives us the example of the fly appearing to be a dragon. A fly, an insect, so something rather small appearing to be something as large as a dragon. Mass = Density X Volume. In this case Volume would be increased because the size of the object has increased. You've gone from looking at a small fly to looking at a large dragon.

I think my interpretation of what Aizen's shikai is capable of is correct because of the example given to us by Aizen himself (fly and dragon), and the fact that Aizen tells us the target(the 1 hypnotized) misinterprets other objects. Aizen made his sword appear as a corpse, the bald guy looked like Aizen, Gin appeared to be Aizen during the Komomaru fight etc.



edit: My comment about shape, what I meant was:

If I take a small block of clay that's shaped like a perfect cube, and I flatten the block to appear to be a pancake, what's changed? The shape has. The mass of the object hasn't been decreased or increased. I've simply shaped it to appear as a pancake.

Now if I take that same small block and /snaps fingers, and make it appear to be a block of clay as large as a house, now what's changed? The mass has.

That's what I meant when I said that making a fly appear to be a dragon isn't simply a change in shape. It's a complete change in the mass of the object.

[He's a Mentalist]

I am not debating the fact that Aizen can distort the appearance of objects to make them look a certain way and fool the sense of sight, but rather his distortion of mass. Mass isn't weight, but from what Grimmjow experienced in the room was due to a shikai ability. If Aizen were exerting his reiatsu over Grimmjow it would have to engulf the room with it, thus making the lesser Espada feel the same pressurized feeling. They sat there as if they weren't feeling a thing. That is where I am getting this from and why I think his shikai is able to distort the mass/density of a person although their density/mass is exactly the same. Another way of making the brain think a certain way.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/245/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/245/11/

But I am guessing we have come to some type of agreement?

[UlquiorraKuchiki]

Relating to the mass/density distortion possibilities, whatever Aizen creates an illusion of has the mass that goes with it, for example when he created the illusion of his corpse, it had the mass of his body so that when people went to pick it up it didn't feel like nothing. If Aizen were to create the illusion that someone's hands had just turned into wrecking balls I'm pretty certain they would feel as though they had the mass of wrecking balls. Likewise, if Aizen made a fly appear as a dragon it would have the mass of a dragon so when it attacks someone it doesn't feel like a fly.

As for Aizen making Grimmjow fall under pressure from raw reiatsu, I believe that was really Aizen's reiatsu simply because when someone has that amount of control over their reiatsu they are able to expell their reiatsu into selective areas, the same way Gin expelled his reiatsu at Inoue and Ishida etc on Soukyoku hill to make them drop while the battle-torn Ichigo and Renjii didn't feel a thing.

[Graziano]

Originally Posted by He's a Mentalist

I am not debating the fact that Aizen can distort the appearance of objects to make them look a certain way and fool the sense of sight, but rather his distortion of mass. Mass isn't weight, but from what Grimmjow experienced in the room was due to a shikai ability. If Aizen were exerting his reiatsu over Grimmjow it would have to engulf the room with it, thus making the lesser Espada feel the same pressurized feeling. They sat there as if they weren't feeling a thing. That is where I am getting this from and why I think his shikai is able to distort the mass/density of a person although their density/mass is exactly the same. Another way of making the brain think a certain way.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/245/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/245/11/

But I am guessing we have come to some type of agreement?

Well, we were both right, we were just thinking of 2 different aspects of mass. You were thinking of an increase in density, which leads to an increase in mass. I was thinking of an increase in volume, which also leads to an increase in mass. I'm sure we can agree on that much so far.

Now about the whole "The other espadas at the table didn't feel a thing". My guess was:

1) We have someone like Kenpachi who has no control over his reaitsu and needs to wear an eye patch just to keep all of his reiatsu from spilling out, and his reiatsu floods the entire area around him.

2) Then we have someone like Byakuya who is actually capable increasing and decreasing his reiatsu at will, but once he does increase it, his reiatsu floods the entire area around him and affects everyone.

3) Finally, you have someone like Aizen who not only increases and decreases his reiatsu at will, but is also able to target a very specific area with his reiatsu, thus allowing others around him to not be affected.

Only an assumption.

Again and I know this is getting old, but based on the very example of Aizen's shikai given to us, and the fact that Aizen tells us he makes those hypnotized misinterpret other objects, I just think that Kubo/Aizen's interpretation of "Complete Hypnosis" is based more on the mass/volume manipulation than mass/density.

In the end, we're never really going to be sure until we see Aizen fight and see the limit of his shikai before he goes bankai, but I have admit, I've had more fun in this debate than I've ever had, lol. You forced me to refresh my memory on physics, and past midnight, yeah...

edit:

at the end of the day:

Note how Aizen carries his zanpakutou.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/06/


Now here as he enters for the espada meeting.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/244/18/

He never even had his zanpakutou on him.