Yumichika Ayasegawa VS Matsumoto Rangiku

[LordNecrotis]

Originally Posted by irugathesilent

A little different when all Kira's zan has been shown to do so far is increase things weight and matsu's shikai counters 100% by being gas and not a physical item to increase its weight

i agree

@WakingDreamer- kira had his guard down because he thought haineko was disabled, whereas yumichika knows his zan doesn't do shit(in your example)... so his guard wouldn't drop

also matsumoto is a vc, so yumichika wouldn't play around(like with ganju)

but matsumoto would be expecting a fifth seat, that appears incapable of being a fourth seat.... this is after their wins in the SS arc, so matsu. shouldn't know anything except his squad and possibly his seat number

SCquote- I wonder . . . can Rangiku command Haineko's ash to go through Yumichika's nostrils (inhalation) and ears?

If she can, then Yumichika dies from horrible internal bleeding.

@skycrapper- if she could , i think she would have when she was outnumbered 3-1

[skycrapper]

@Necrotis And to quote Iruga's post about Rangiku - Kira fight : There's physics in play there. Haineko negates Wabisuke's shikai effects once it's turned from big chunk of zanpakutou metal into organic-like ash that goes airborne once it's shikai-released . . . thus I can safely say that Haineko's ash retains its physical properties as ash, which includes being finer than a common dust. And if one could choke or sneeze from breathing in common dust, ash can at least do the same thing, right?

[Waking_Dreamer]

Originally Posted by LordNecrotis

@WakingDreamer- kira had his guard down because he thought haineko was disabled, whereas yumichika knows his zan doesn't do shit(in your example)... so his guard wouldn't drop

also matsumoto is a vc, so yumichika wouldn't play around(like with ganju)

but matsumoto would be expecting a fifth seat, that appears incapable of being a fourth seat.... this is after their wins in the SS arc, so matsu. shouldn't know anything except his squad and possibly his seat number

At the same time all the opponents Yumichika has versed were all close range and underestimating him, since they could beat the shit out of him with little effort. The speed of Yumichika's shikai is not known since just like your implying with Kira, the two opponents he had definitely had their guard down too.

If you want an actual battle of skill and NOT a sucker punch victory (since no SOM or knowledge specified) then :

They have full knowledge on each others abilities and dont hesitate to use their powers. Its basically a battle of mid-range shikais. NO ONE will get close to each other with knowledge.

So - can Yumichika win like this...? Matsumoto has shown to be able to get her shikai cloud in a wide area in front of her. As I said in my first post whoever tags the other first with their shikai wins.

Im not sure if Yumichika's vines have the power of 3 Fraccion Ceros to pucnh or disperse through Matsumoto's shikai cloud.

[replica69]

Originally Posted by Waking_Dreamer

At the same time all the opponents Yumichika has versed were all close range and underestimating him, since they could beat the shit out of him with little effort. The speed of Yumichika's shikai is not known since just like your implying with Kira, the two opponents he had definitely had their guard down too.

If you want an actual battle of skill and NOT a sucker punch victory (since no SOM or knowledge specified) then :

They have full knowledge on each others abilities and dont hesitate to use their powers. Its basically a battle of mid-range shikais. NO ONE will get close to each other with knowledge.

So - can Yumichika win like this...? Matsumoto has shown to be able to get her shikai cloud in a wide area in front of her. As I said in my first post whoever tags the other first with their shikai wins.

Im not sure if Yumichika's vines have the power of 3 Fraccion Ceros to pucnh or disperse through Matsumoto's shikai cloud.

In regard to SOM, both competitors have full knowledge on each other, sorry for not stating that earlier on, my bad

[LordNecrotis]

Originally Posted by skycrapper

@Necrotis And to quote Iruga's post about Rangiku - Kira fight : There's physics in play there. Haineko negates Wabisuke's shikai effects once it's turned from big chunk of zanpakutou metal into organic-like ash that goes airborne once it's shikai-released . . . thus I can safely say that Haineko's ash retains its physical properties as ash, which includes being finer than a common dust. And if one could choke or sneeze from breathing in common dust, ash can at least do the same thing, right?

i agree that it should be possible... but it hasn't been shown, maybe she doesn't have the mastery of haineko needed to use it that way... or maybe it's a technique that'll be available once she gets bankai.... but it's not there yet

Originally Posted by Waking_Dreamer

At the same time all the opponents Yumichika has versed were all close range and underestimating him, since they could beat the shit out of him with little effort. The speed of Yumichika's shikai is not known since just like your implying with Kira, the two opponents he had definitely had their guard down too.

If you want an actual battle of skill and NOT a sucker punch victory (since no SOM or knowledge specified) then :

They have full knowledge on each others abilities and dont hesitate to use their powers. Its basically a battle of mid-range shikais. NO ONE will get close to each other with knowledge.

So - can Yumichika win like this...? Matsumoto has shown to be able to get her shikai cloud in a wide area in front of her. As I said in my first post whoever tags the other first with their shikai wins.

Im not sure if Yumichika's vines have the power of 3 Fraccion Ceros to pucnh or disperse through Matsumoto's shikai cloud.

@underline- the same could be said for matsu... and could be taken to a greater extreme than yumichika's situation as a group would see even less of a threat from a single individual

@bold- i'm not really sure where you get this... in both instances yum. TOLD his opponents they were about to be finished

and as for speed... kubo's showed RK to be sealed in one panel, and wrapped around CC the next, so i'd say it's pretty fast

@boldunderline- i may be wrong... but it seems that i remember matsu having to put forward some effort to move haineko around, when using it to shield

[Shūkei hakuteiken]

^it's probably similar to Senbonzakura in bankai; both can probably move their abilities telepathically but double in speed/ increase in precision when using hands (or hilt in rangiku's case).

[Waking_Dreamer]

@LordNecrotis

The distance at which Matsumoto was facing the Halibabies:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v38/c330/7.html

The Speed at which Haineko surrounds them:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v38/c330/8.html

The area which Haineko covers the front of Matsumoto:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v38/c330/10.html

The volume in which the Ash can completely surround its opponents:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v38/c330/11.html

^ She never even had to be pushed to use this tactic and was pretty much her first move.

----------------

The distance of Yumichika and Coolhorn:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v37/c321/12.html

The distance when Yumichika tags the fraccion:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v37/c321/15.html

^ Doesnt really matter though since Coolhorn had already activated his own ability, which closed off an area preventing him to evade as an option - he would need to drop his thorn cage before he could move away.

OP was correct. Its not really a one-sided match in Yumichika's favor at all.

[LordNecrotis]

Originally Posted by Waking_Dreamer

@LordNecrotis

The distance at which Matsumoto was facing the Halibabies:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v38/c330/7.html

The Speed at which Haineko surrounds them:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v38/c330/8.html

The area which Haineko covers the front of Matsumoto:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v38/c330/10.html

The volume in which the Ash can completely surround its opponents:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v38/c330/11.html

^ She never even had to be pushed to use this tactic and was pretty much her first move.

----------------

The distance of Yumichika and Coolhorn:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v37/c321/12.html

The distance when Yumichika tags the fraccion:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v37/c321/15.html

^ Doesnt really matter though since Coolhorn had already activated his own ability, which closed off an area preventing him to evade as an option - he would need to drop his thorn cage before he could move away.
OP was correct. Its not really a one-sided match in Yumichika's favor at all.

@bold- i'd like to point out that the three fraccion were surrounded by haineko not only long enough to talk, but to charge and fire a cero.... and if you look at page 14 you'll clearly see that they took no significant damage

yumichika was shown to take significant damage from cc, before releasing

i've not seen any staying power from matsumoto... and this would be a long fight if matsumoto can avoid RK

@underline- there was still enough distance between yumichika and cc to show that RK has impressive speed when released

tbh i think yumichika is one of the top three vc level fighters we've seen... hisagi and kira being the others

[Waking_Dreamer]

Actually incorrect.

To be more specific - the moment Matsumoto releases here shikai the Fraccion were surrounded on all sides by her Ash right?



They only started chattin' away after being surrounded by it. Matsumoto was just casually waiting for them to do something foolish like rush through it.

After they realized they Ash was dangerous Matsumoto with CLICK of her fingers blocked them completely - explicitly saying its not something you can run away from. That's definitely a comment about its speed and not just a subjective panel interpretation.





Also about page 14 - they never got tagged by the Ash. Thats the point of the THREE Ceros - they dispersed the Ash tornado before it collapsed on them.

Since Yumichika doesnt have offencive power like ceros or even kido since his squad looks down on that - it doesnt look good for him.

Shikai Ikkaku lost to GT-less Shikai Ichigo, and Yumichika is weaker than Ikkaku in melee. Seriously outside his hax rieatsu vines there's nothing that special about Yumichika for VC-level.

I agree with Cakespoon - now that Matsumoto has knowledge, odds are in her favor...

[skycrapper]

Originally Posted by LordNecrotis

i agree that it should be possible... but it hasn't been shown, maybe she doesn't have the mastery of haineko needed to use it that way... or maybe it's a technique that'll be available once she gets bankai.... but it's not there yet

It's not a technique, skill or magic. It's simple, standard physics, as simple as saying that she can do backhand swing with a sword. Okay, she does not have to command it to enter the opponent's nostrils and ears, all she has to do is to make the ash surround the opponent's body so close, the opponent must inhale air with some traces of ash. Just like when we try to inhale in a middle of a sand storm. Or, she could just concentrate the ash whirl around the head, and the opponent is forced to gasp for air, including the ash.

EDIT: Furthermore, there's no reason why she can't command the ash to enter one's nostrils. She can literally steer the ashes with a flick of her wrist and a snap of her fingers. Unless Haineko is ever bothered to feel disgusted of nose hairs and snot, IMO Rangiku can command the ash to blow the nose from the inside.